MA 800m record

[zackxc]

Does anyone think that Gagnon has a reasonable shot at the Ma 800m record of 1:49.00? I know that it is three seconds faster than his current PR but I think that if he really tried for it he has a good shot

[Wizardx]

In my opinion: Nope.

[Josh barbara]

3 seconds is so much when your already going that fast. those three seconds are what would propel him from a really good runner to a great runner. even if he has the ability, the conditions would have to be perfect. perfects splits perfect compotition and a great track. not rooting against him but i would say the odds that are not in his favor are stacked pretty high.

[NErunner]

going from a 200M track to a 400M track has to take off some time by itself. Plus the training he'll be doing all spring. Id say yes.

[stizz]

So what you guys are saying is that Gagnon will run a 1:48 this spring? If he broke the state record that's what he would have to run.

Gags is my boy but 1:48?? That is freakin moving. Do I think he has a shot at 1:49high? certainly. But that effort would take ideal conditions. He would have to run away from the field at all-states to make the seeded heat at NON and then stay in the mix in that field to attempt a sub-1:50. At every state meet so far it seems like he's only run as fast as he's had to in order to win.

People can play cheerleaders and all that but you also have to be realistic and consider the few opportunities he's going to have and that everything has to go right.

EDIT: IMO there is no difference between running the 800 on the armory surface and running an 800 on an outdoor track.

[AzN at LARGE]

i'd say no, even with the 400m track and the extra training from spring just because it's way too big of a jump

[clifbar]

The only opinion that matters is his. If he thinks he can do it, than good luck to him.

[300kicks]

Riddle Me This, Who in Mass, better yet NE, is going to run 53 point/121 point to set him up for a shot at sub 1:50?

Although indoors, thats how the guys at NSIC prevailed, run hard early stay away from BGagnon. FWIW :rolleyes:

[polyxc]

Riddle Me This, Who in Mass, better yet NE, is going to run 53 point/121 point to set him up for a shot at sub 1:50?

Although indoors, thats how the guys at NSIC prevailed, run hard early stay away from BGagnon. FWIW :rolleyes:
Are you saying that it takes a 53.x to set up for a 149.x 800?

I would think a 55.0 would serve just fine.

And why not a sub 1:50 attempt at the AOC. There will plenty of guys going for sub 1:50 there. Colin Campbell, Justin Craddock, Bryan Scotland, Sean Tully, Karjuan Williams, Rob Novak, Cody Harper, E.C. Gibbs, Cory Primm, Travis Bradford, ...

[Mrr82]

Riddle Me This, Who in Mass, better yet NE, is going to run 53 point/121 point to set him up for a shot at sub 1:50?

Although indoors, thats how the guys at NSIC prevailed, run hard early stay away from BGagnon. FWIW :rolleyes:

That's how they prevailed? I beg to differ...i think that's why Gagnon ran so fast and beat so many guys. He ran almost even splits while other guys were dying off the blazign first 400. Or were you joking? i'm not sure what FWIW means?

[300kicks]

Ya, They prevailed, he finished 3rd

1 Craddock, Justin SR Williamsville, NY 1:51.36
2 Finn, Ryan SR Ajax, ON 1:51.76
3 Gagnon, Brian SR Lowell, MA 1:52.55

So, even splitting 55/122.5 who's going to do that in NE, and when /if he competes at AOC, you seriously think that JCraddock, CHarper et al will allow the pace to be 55? For What Its Worth

[fightingmish08]

Are you saying that it takes a 53.x to set up for a 149.x 800?

I would think a 55.0 would serve just fine.


I don't think that there is a runner in high school right now who could run a sub-1:50 800 without getting out in at least 54.00. The ideal split for an 800 is +2 seconds for the second half. If you get out even moderately hard some slowdown is inevitable, and if you don't get out hard then you're not going to run fast. I don't think that there's anyone in high school in the US right now who is capable of running better than 1:48.8 this year, and to be able to run 55-54.xx I'd say you need to be at least a 1:47 runner.

[stizz]

Are you saying that it takes a 53.x to set up for a 149.x 800?

I would think a 55.0 would serve just fine.

And why not a sub 1:50 attempt at the AOC. There will plenty of guys going for sub 1:50 there. Colin Campbell, Justin Craddock, Bryan Scotland, Sean Tully, Karjuan Williams, Rob Novak, Cody Harper, E.C. Gibbs, Cory Primm, Travis Bradford, ...
half the guys you just mentioned probably won't even be in that race
and the first lap will be taken out in 53

[Mrr82]

Ya, They prevailed, he finished 3rd

well then i fully disagree with you....You think they prevailed because he went out too slow? i think he was close to them because he paced himself. I think if he had gone out in a 53 he would have ended up running a 154 instead.

Hey why not though...if he had gone out in a 50 flat he would have destroyed everyone else in the field...and they would not have prevailed :rolleyes:

[NErunner]

what did gagnon go out at, at the NCIC?

[polyxc]

what did gagnon go out at, at the NCIC?

56.

Many went out faster, and paid for it.

[polyxc]

...I think if he had gone out in a 53 he would have ended up running a 154 instead...
I have to a agree with mrr82 here.

[Mrr82]

Yea, a 2-3 second difference between first and last lap is ok, but when you start getting to 5 or 6 it's ineffiecent, and the reason why it happens is because those guys don't want to learn how to run an 800 correctly, or their coaches don't know what they are doing.

They don't want to try and run a steady last lap off a controlled first lap...they want to go out balls to the walls giving them this "mental" edge thinking they only need to run a slow last lap to run a fast time off a fast first lap. When you split 53-58....that's not the way to run. i believe kipketer split 49.3-51.8 on the way to his wr. a 2.5 second difference.

If someone is in SHAPE to run say 150 flat, i suggest going out in 53.8-54.5ish and coming back in 55.5-56ish.

But to suggest he should have gone out in 53 indoors and that wuold have helped him win and almost or even break the national record....i couldn't disagree more.

[78Champ]

Plus the training he'll be doing all spring. Id say yes.

Did he not train in the winter before running 1:52.55?

JW

[gesser]

If he runs a 47 high or 48 flat in a FAT race, I'll say yes. I think day by day, his aerobic development is improving, so if he shows that speed in an open race, I think he can do it this year. To run 1:49.xx you need 48.0 speed or ungodly aerobic ability IMO. He'll run 1:49 eventually, but If he goes 1:50.xx or sub 1:50, that's a great accomplishment.

[300kicks]

I did not say 53 flat, I stated "going to run 53 point/121 point " meaning sub 54 sub 122.

Where was this stated, National Record attempt?
"But to suggest he should have gone out in 53 indoors and that wuold have helped him win and almost or even break the national record....i couldn't disagree more."

You falsely presume that I stated that he was in error in his conduct of the NSIC race, I WAS pointing out the way to succeed with a kicker is to get away from him.


My statement was concerning an OUTDOOR attempt at the 800 record
and going out in 53POINT thru the 600 in 121POINT. which seems to be
similar to:

"If someone is in SHAPE to run say 150 flat, i suggest going out in 53.8-54.5ish and coming back in 55.5-56ish."

Yuriy Borzakovskiy vs André Bucher

[Mrr82]

You falsely presume that I stated that he was in error in his conduct of the NSIC race, I WAS pointing out the way to succeed with a kicker is to get away from him.

And you are incorrect in stating so. The way to suceed against a kicker is to run your best race possible. You are suggesting they won because they went out ridiculously fast at a pace that HURT their overal time. If they had gone out a second slower they might have gone a half a second faster and won by more.

The way to LOSE to a kicker is to try and get away from him. You should go out at a pace that will maximize your overall time. Ask the guys who Nate Brannen flew by at nationals a couple years ago indoors. Going out hard with lekote cost them the win and Nate just sat back and cruised by them when they started speed walking the last 100. Thats' EXACTLY what a kicker wants them to do. And it just feeds them even more when he sees them cmoing back to him and tying up bad.

[Wizardx]

And you are incorrect in stating so. The way to suceed against a kicker is to run your best race possible. You are suggesting they won because they went out ridiculously fast at a pace that HURT their overal time. If they had gone out a second slower they might have gone a half a second faster and won by more.

The way to LOSE to a kicker is to try and get away from him. You should go out at a pace that will maximize your overall time. Ask the guys who Nate Brannen flew by at nationals a couple years ago indoors. Going out hard with lekote cost them the win and Nate just sat back and cruised by them when they started speed walking the last 100. Thats' EXACTLY what a kicker wants them to do. And it just feeds them even more when he sees them cmoing back to him and tying up bad.

No way. Of course if you're naturally better than the kicker then you just run your own race and beat him. But if the kicker is naturally better than you and he's still with you with one lap to go, forget about it.

The best way to try to surpass the kicker IS to take the kick out of his legs by taking the pace out fast and HOPING he comes with you, as 300kicks was saying. Otherwise, he's just waiting... waiting... waiting... goodbye. But obviously this only works if the kicker has a bad sense of pace and decides to go out with you, but if he's smart enough not to, then the kicker has nothing to worry about.

They beat Gagnon at NSIC because they were straight up faster than him, despite having bad splits. Not to mention, when Gagnon runs his smart races/PR races, where was the kick? He split 56 and finished 1:52. There was no superior kick---he just ran correctly.

[gesser]

If Gagnon really did run 56/56, you also gotta give him some slack since it was his only? effort at the 800 indoors that year. With the small track, running a first 200 at a good pace can be tough if you get boxed in, or moved outside.

If he had run more conventional splits, he might've run even faster than 1:52...that would've been awesome.

[300kicks]

" You are suggesting they won because they went out ridiculously fast at a pace that HURT their overal time. If they had gone out a second slower they might have gone a half a second faster and won by more."

The Suggestion "they went out ridiculously fast" is yours not mine.

As Dirty Harry said "A man must know his limitations", and running outside them is peril filled, however, in the heat of competition, the thirst for victory
can cloud one's judgement.

As far as drastic horror stories of over zealous first lap causing failures, try going back to the coach when you go out slow and get blown away with a devastating kick. :D

[Mrr82]

As far as drastic horror stories of over zealous first lap causing failures, try going back to the coach when you go out slow and get blown away with a devastating kick. :D

Well that depends on if the guy was better then you in the first place. If you are only capable of runnign a 148, and the kicker guy a 146....and you go out at the pace you should and he outkicks you....you're coach would be a retard to yell at you. Unfortunatly many coaches aren't very bright and yell at kids when they don't go out at a pace they think they should run...instead of the one that maximizes their potential.

Also i think it's better to go back to your coach and say hey...i finished 3rd and ran a pr because i went out at reasonably...then to go back to your coach and say...i went out like you told me too, and i died really hard and finished 10th and ran 3 seconds off my pr...but at least i put myself in the race. Again unfortunatly some coaches don't think you're a competitor unless you try to go for the win...even if it's at the cost of doing worse.

[Wizardx]

Well that depends on if the guy was better then you in the first place. If you are only capable of runnign a 148, and the kicker guy a 146....and you go out at the pace you should and he outkicks you....you're coach would be a retard to yell at you. Unfortunatly many coaches aren't very bright and yell at kids when they don't go out at a pace they think they should run...instead of the one that maximizes their potential.

Also i think it's better to go back to your coach and say hey...i finished 3rd and ran a pr because i went out at reasonably...then to go back to your coach and say...i went out like you told me too, and i died really hard and finished 10th and ran 3 seconds off my pr...but at least i put myself in the race. Again unfortunatly some coaches don't think you're a competitor unless you try to go for the win...even if it's at the cost of doing worse.

Not always about the time. I'd say it depends on the race.

[polyxc]

half the guys you just mentioned probably won't even be in that race
Are you saying those guys don't have the talent to make the AOC finals?

[stizz]

Are you saying those guys don't have the talent to make the AOC finals?
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that they won't be entered in the race. Sean Tully will have relay obligations. Primm, Campbell, and Bradford are from CA, and cali guys are usually not well represented in north carolina. Their state meet is early so they plan their peak differently. It's useless for them to travel across the country when they have other big meets to run just as fast in such as Arcadia and Golden West.
As for Craddock, Scotland, Williams, Gibbs, Novak, and Harper, there is no guarantee that all six of them will show up.

[polyxc]

Don't put words in my mouth... I was just asking. I wasn't sure what you meant. Now I do.

Still there will would be enough talent at AOC for Gagnon to get pacing for a run at the state record. 300kicks seemed to implying that Gagnon would have no opportunity to run in a race that would be around Mass. State record pace. As you said, someone is going to go out at 53 low.

[Wizardx]

It's useless for them to travel across the country when they have other big meets to run just as fast in such as Arcadia and Golden West.


And you voted for the gold medal?

[jim]

In a fast 800, a 'kicker' is the one who slows down the least.

[Mrr82]

In a fast 800, a 'kicker' is the one who slows down the least.

Thats' one definiton in a given situation....another is who can speed up the most off a slow tactical pace.

But your definition fits with what i'm talking about....if you try to run away frmo a kicker...and it's at a pace that will hurt your overall time....you'll be happy being ahead of him for a while...but often it just means you will be hurting big time down the homestretch and having him fly by you even quicker....underperforming.

You don't change your strategy in the 800 to a strategy that's faster then one that will maximize your time. That's just setting yourself up for failure.

The only time you want to try and run away frmo a kicker is if the pace is SLOWER then one you can handle.