What shoes do you train in?

[DoIHave2RunNow]

This is a general question for all distance runners.
What brand shoe and model do you train in during longer runs.

Has anybody else switched from Asics to Adidas?

[Father Russia]

I went from Asics to Adidas, to Mizuno.

Mizuno Wave Rider 12s are great for me, I had persistent injury in all the Asics and Adidas I wore, guess I just don't pronate :(

[TheHairyHarrier]

2140's...been living off the 21xx series for 3 years now.

[fastrunner12]

Brooks Defyance 2 / Mizuno Wave Idaten (flats) / barefoot

[BexRunner]

VFFs

[bobdaily123]

Marathoners for everything. I've been training in them for about 2 months with no problems. before that i was running in lunatrainers. I started doing a few miles everyday barefoot, then i moved into running in the marathoners full time

[JohnDeere]

Has anybody else switched from Asics to Adidas?
I've worn a bunch of Asics for the last 3 years (DS trainers, Cumulus, Landreth, 1140s, and 2120s). I bought a pair of adidas Boston trainers a few days ago and they seem pretty solid. If I had to compare them to another shoe, I'd say they're similar to the Cumulus.

I think I'm gonna buy a pair of Asics and just alternate the two for now.

[Demon Runner]

vibrams and mizuno wave rider

[LongRedLine4H]

I tend to favor the adizero line when I'm not running barefoot. I've run in the following:

Adizero LTs (fav shoe ever)
LT 2s (also great)
RCs
Manas
some random grey kind I bought on sale, not sure what they were but they were nice
Boston (current shoe- left achilles has been a little sore lately, wanted something a little meatier- 9oz is the heaviest shoe I've run in in a long time)

[WillyNilly]

NB 904 all day everyday

[happychineseboy]

NB 904 all day everyday

yeah boy

[g0ld3n]

I train in Asics Gel-Kayanos. Used to use brooks but finally moved on to bigger better shoes. I got some Nike Free 3.0s I am trying to adjust to so I train in them with shorter runs and Kayanos for everything else until Frees take over for everything.

[ian edwards]

Nike Shox Turbo 8

[mileman17]

just picked up my nike zoom elite+ 4 today. i used to train in the structure triax 11.

[RFXCrunner]

Mizuno Wave Rider 12
Mizuno Wave Elixir 3
Adidas AdiZero Tempo
Adidas AdiZero Ace
Saucony Progrid Guide
Nike Free 3.0
Brooks Racer ST3
Puma Complete Road Racer III

All in my current rotation.

[Rob A]

I'm finishing up my 12th or 13th pair of the saucony trigon ride 5's and eastbay finally ran out of them, on to the newest version soon.

[Saint Ashlar]

I alternate between the Adizero Tempo and Structure Triax 12. I tend to use the structures for longer runs, but it ultimately comes down to what I feel like using on any given day.

[Matthew Avery]

right now...

puma tenos IV
brooks ravenna
asics ds trainer
mizuno wave elixir 4

was in the saucony progrid guides for 5 or 6 pairs but i didn't like the way the guide 2's felt so have been switching it up.

[Cicero]

I've been training in the Asics Gel-Stratus. I think they've been discontinued, though. Anyone know of a similar shoe, or even a lighter shoe that would require little to no transition?

[bdmiler2010]

2140's...been living off the 21xx series for 3 years now.

Yep

[runkidrun]

I've gone through about 9 pairs of Brooks Adrenaline. Nothing ever went wrong with them, so I see no reason to change.

[R.W.A. 6891]

I do the bulk of my mileage in Brooks Infinitis and do shorter runs in my Brooks Axioms which I've had since the middle of track season.

[love to run]

ran in the cumulus for 2 years now im in adidas supernova glides, my favorite trainer of all time

[runxc6792]

new balance 769 right now

[scitownxc]

I've gone through about 9 pairs of Brooks Adrenaline. Nothing ever went wrong with them, so I see no reason to change.

QFE been wearing them since freshman year in HS (sophmore in college now)
now i use them for most runs, but if i wanna feel fast ill go with streaks or lunaracers

[Bocho6]

been training in the adizero rc for half a yr and they have well over 1000 miles on them....im probably going to get either the adizero rocket or asic hyperspeed 3 next....still contemplating.

[AquinasCrossCountry9]

I've been training in the Asics Gel-Stratus. I think they've been discontinued, though. Anyone know of a similar shoe, or even a lighter shoe that would require little to no transition?

me too i'm on my fourth pair...really solid shoe. I don't think they've been discontinued though?

[hoegher]

Asics Gel-Cumulus 10's.

[Cicero]

me too i'm on my fourth pair...really solid shoe. I don't think they've been discontinued though?

No where has my size and they aren't on the Asics website anymore.

Edit: Would the Speedstars make a good replacement?

[AquinasCrossCountry9]

No where has my size and they aren't on the Asics website anymore.

Edit: Would the Speedstars make a good replacement?

check eastbay man, they have all sizes in the red colorway....has anyone every worn these? http://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/products/ASW2069/

[Stoliker32]

Asics nimbus and cumulus and nike lunar trainer

[Staywhatuar]

Nike Pegasus 25, Nike Start, Nike Lunar Trainers

[Cicero]

check eastbay man, they have all sizes in the red colorway....has anyone every worn these? http://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/products/ASW2069/

lol, every size except 11.5. Guess what I wear.

[vano]

vibrams and mizuno wave rider

How exactly does that work? From a normal trainer to ultra minimalist.

[fortrunner]

I wore the Adidas Boston Classic for 3 years and then this track season switched into the Nike Vomero 4

[Demon Runner]

How exactly does that work? From a normal trainer to ultra minimalist.

living in a filthy, industrialized city sucks and i find it best to keep a balance between the two

[Bfig09]

Asics DS Trainers and VibramFiveFingas

[fastxcrunner]

Asics DS Trainers and VibramFiveFingas

I just ordered these. How do you like them?

[runasaurus]

I just ordered these. How do you like them?

I swear by the 13s...the 14s I guess are ok (I haven't owned them) but they seemed wider and (maybe it's just me) but heavier/clunkier.

[RebelXC]

Marathoners for everything. I've been training in them for about 2 months with no problems. before that i was running in lunatrainers. I started doing a few miles everyday barefoot, then i moved into running in the marathoners full time

Sucks for you...

The whole minimalist thing is way overrated.

[WillyNilly]

If you ever wore the DS 7's you'll know =how the 14's are. Asics just took the 7's and made them look pretty.

[fastrunner12]

Sucks for you...

The whole minimalist thing is way overrated.

being able to run in lighter shoes all the time sucks?

[RebelXC]

being able to run in lighter shoes all the time sucks?

Nah just the whole minimalist thing...

Just saying its overrated.

[fastrunner12]

Nah just the whole minimalist thing...

Just saying its overrated.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-0f2OLadvVk/R5Kg08_8nvI/AAAAAAAAC2M/4wk1zQWqc-0/s320/Reagan.jpg

[uncle jim]

Nah just the whole minimalist thing...

Just saying its overrated.

..how

[RebelXC]

..how
The same way where everyone went through that "If I do a ton of core work its going to help me drop 20 seconds off my mile PR" phase.

Yeah sure its good to do weekly maybe even a little daily but not on every single run. You got nothing to fall back on during races, and more importantly during championship season. You train in flats all the time your legs aren't going to feel much better before a race than they do before a normal workout. When you train in heavier shoes, you get that feeling when you strap on your spikes before a race, like man my legs feel nice and light right now.

But thats just my opinion and what ive always been taught, and ive never trained like that so I guess I dont really have alot of room to talk than do I...

[fastrunner12]

and ive never trained like that so I guess I dont really have alot of room to talk than do I...

this

[mgcc]

I'm finishing up my 12th or 13th pair of the saucony trigon ride 5's and eastbay finally ran out of them, on to the newest version soon.

I have a BNIB pair if you want them.

I train in lunaracers and katana 3s. They're bomb. I plan on getting streaks some time.

[runfroshrun]

Yeah sure its good to do weekly maybe even a little daily but not on every single run. You got nothing to fall back on during races, and more importantly during championship season. You train in flats all the time your legs aren't going to feel much better before a race than they do before a normal workout. When you train in heavier shoes, you get that feeling when you strap on your spikes before a race, like man my legs feel nice and light right now.



Before a race I'd rather be able to say "My feet are strong and I'm used to running in these shoes" rather than "cool I feel lighter than usual".

Anyway, I've been training in the Mizuno wave precision 9 for a while but for the past few months I've been running either barefoot or in Brooks T5's on trails a lot.

[Spiked]

Before a race I'd rather be able to say "My feet are strong and I'm used to running in these shoes" rather than "cool I feel lighter than usual".

Anyway, I've been training in the Mizuno wave precision 9 for a while but for the past few months I've been running either barefoot or in Brooks T5's on trails a lot.

Agreed. That whole "run in trainers all the time and for most workouts so that when I put spikes on I feel faster" argument is pretty bogus IMO. You're just trying to trick yourself into feeling faster. The benefits you will receive from having stronger feet, ankles, and lower legs, as well as the improvement in your mechanics and efficiency will far outweigh anything you can try and convince yourself of before a race...

[bobdaily123]

The same way where everyone went through that "If I do a ton of core work its going to help me drop 20 seconds off my mile PR" phase.

Yeah sure its good to do weekly maybe even a little daily but not on every single run. You got nothing to fall back on during races, and more importantly during championship season. You train in flats all the time your legs aren't going to feel much better before a race than they do before a normal workout. When you train in heavier shoes, you get that feeling when you strap on your spikes before a race, like man my legs feel nice and light right now.

But thats just my opinion and what ive always been taught, and ive never trained like that so I guess I dont really have alot of room to talk than do I...

I'll answer your rant with a question

does Michael Phelps tie cinderblocks around his waist so that durring races he feels so much lighter?

I started training in flats because I saw members of my team get hurt with injuries like plantars and shin splints. They are all wearing supportive trainers, while I've been wearing flats and lightweight trainers and the only injury I've sustained was a pulled hipflexor. Flats are there to make your feet feel lighter, but to make sure that your mechanics are correct.
trainers == training wheels
flats == bad ass bike

[RebelXC]

Agreed. That whole "run in trainers all the time and for most workouts so that when I put spikes on I feel faster" argument is pretty bogus IMO. You're just trying to trick yourself into feeling faster. The benefits you will receive from having stronger feet, ankles, and lower legs, as well as the improvement in your mechanics and efficiency will far outweigh anything you can try and convince yourself of before a race...

Oh don't get me wrong I do my workouts in spikes/flats just for this sole purpose just not all of my runs.

I'll answer your rant with a question

does Michael Phelps tie cinderblocks around his waist so that durring races he feels so much lighter?

I started training in flats because I saw members of my team get hurt with injuries like plantars and shin splints. They are all wearing supportive trainers, while I've been wearing flats and lightweight trainers and the only injury I've sustained was a pulled hipflexor. Flats are there to make your feet feel lighter, but to make sure that your mechanics are correct.
trainers == training wheels
flats == bad ass bike

No Michael Phelps doesn't do the whole cinderblock thing. But he does wear a drag suit during practice and in warm ups.

What are some of your pr's, I'm really curious I'm not trying to be a horses ass or anything.

[hoegher]

When you train in heavier shoes, you get that feeling when you strap on your spikes before a race, like man my legs feel nice and light right now.

QFE. This is what I enjoy most about spikes. There have been several races where I've felt crappy pre-race. But put on my spikes, and I feel so much better.

does Michael Phelps tie cinderblocks around his waist so that durring races he feels so much lighter?

I'm guessing you don't swim (I don't either, but my brother does).

No Michael Phelps doesn't do the whole cinderblock thing. But he does wear a drag suit during practice and in warm ups.

See, this.

[Father Russia]

Hey look, a new and exciting argument about minimalism.

[fastrunner12]

I don't understand why it's so hard to for people the concept behind minimalism.

The human body is designed to be able to run for hours a day without injury. Most modern running injuries didn't exist before big, cushioned trainers. So wearing flats is a way to compromise between running like we were designed to (barefoot) and having to deal with a paved world.

Pretty simple.

The common responses to this are:

"Minimalism is overrated / a fad."

"I don't see any elites doing it."

To address the first point, before heavy-heeled trainers were invented in the 70's, people ran in simple shoes like Keds or Converses or canvas/leather soled shoes. These shoes did not provide the cushioning that today's shoes provide, so people were required to use correct, efficient form in order to run safely. Earlier than that, people ran barefoot or in moccasins or huarache sandals. So you tell me, what's the fad? Heavy trainers which have only been around for 40 years, or human evolution?

To address the second response, the reason you don't see elites doing it is because elites generally have perfect or near perfect biomechanics. This allows them to train extremely hard without injury in addition to putting up stellar times. If you could run 3:35 for a 1500, and someone came up to you and told you that training in flats is better for you, would you do it? The elites don't want to make a change that drastic, since they are already elite, even if it might benefit them. They don't want to risk a short term injury. However, since 99% of the people on here are not elite, minimalism is an option since they have less to risk and are often times still a ways away from their peak running years, so it makes sense to try something new that will almost certainly benefit them.

[fastrunner12]

QFE. This is what I enjoy most about spikes. There have been several races where I've felt crappy pre-race. But put on my spikes, and I feel so much better.

I can definitely tell the difference between my 8.x oz flats and my 4.x Milers and Vent 2's.

[RebelXC]

I can definitely tell the difference between my 8.x oz flats and my 4.x Milers and Vent 2's.

Some people cant, like me im not going to lie I cant tell a huge difference between the two. I can tell a slight difference but not a big one. I think its more of a personal preference. But you have opened my eyes to the whole minimalism thing. Would there be any benefits in running recovery runs in nike free's or flats?

[Father Russia]

I don't understand why it's so hard to for people the concept behind minimalism.

The human body is designed to be able to run for hours a day without injury. Most modern running injuries didn't exist before big, cushioned trainers. So wearing flats is a way to compromise between running like we were designed to (barefoot) and having to deal with a paved world.


You are sort of ignoring a big part of the equation. People used to run for hours a day. People do not run for hours a day in the modern world, at least not until they are in their late teens. The human body no longer develops the same way it used to. Our ancestors didn't need trainers because their feet and ankles were strong for the entirety of their lives, they did not decide one day when they were teenagers they were going to try to build those muscles up.

Trainers, if you buy the correct brand, do a perfectly adequate job of protecting your feet and promoting proper form. Your explanation of elites using trainers is a total cop out, if training in flats is such a miracle for biomechanics, why don't we ever here inspirational stories about people switching to flats and then reaching the elite level?

I'm sure training in flats is helpful for some people, but for most, I would think it is a wash at best for most people, and I would hate to see someone get hurt when they try to switch to correct a problem that isn't there.

[Demon Runner]

show me 1 video of an elite runner doing a workout in trainers.

[RebelXC]

You are sort of ignoring a big part of the equation. People used to run for hours a day. People do not run for hours a day in the modern world, at least not until they are in their late teens. The human body no longer develops the same way it used to. Our ancestors didn't need trainers because their feet and ankles were strong for the entirety of their lives, they did not decide one day when they were teenagers they were going to try to build those muscles up.

Trainers, if you buy the correct brand, do a perfectly adequate job of protecting your feet and promoting proper form. Your explanation of elites using trainers is a total cop out, if training in flats is such a miracle for biomechanics, why don't we ever here inspirational stories about people switching to flats and then reaching the elite level?

I'm sure training in flats is helpful for some people, but for most, I would think it is a wash at best for most people, and I would hate to see someone get hurt when they try to switch to correct a problem that isn't there.

QFE if it ain't broke dont fix it.

show me 1 video of an elite runner doing a workout in trainers.

Haha this was random as hell??? Im not saying that elites dont train in spikes because they all do. LOL

[bobdaily123]

wheres the proof that says trainers are the best thing for you to run in?
there is no proof, it is just understood that the more cushioning is better for you. what trainers do provide very well is arch support, if you need it. I'm sorry you don't believe that training in flats will improve you drastically, but it is a little thing that can benefit other aspects of running like mechanics.

I'm not the fastest by any means, 2:00 800, 4:30 1600, but training in flats has helped me improve.

[Father Russia]

show me 1 video of an elite runner doing a workout in trainers.

There is certainly a time and a place for flats and spikes, but it is not long runs and easy mileage, at least not in my estimation.

Hey, if training in flats/vff works for you, great, don't change a thing, it is just I'm very very skeptical about the "science" behind it.

[LongRedLine4H]

FatherRussia, I'm a little surprised at your ability to completely forget everything you've learned in biology.

Over a period of millions of years, humans developed to run for prolonged periods of time with minimal footwear. Over the last 50 years, more and more industrialization of our society has to led to an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. 50 years of recent history trumps millions of years of evolution? Don't make me laugh.

There are many reasons why suddenly running for less than an hour a day is "Good training" and the damaging crap we restrict our feet in is one of those reasons. Unlike many of the posters here, I'm not foolish enough to put all the blame on one variable that is difficult to isolate. In fact, in distance running, we can't isolate ANY one variable and say "oh, this is why there was improvement/decline." It's almost always a combination of things.

It displays a weakness in mental acuity to believe a lazy generation or two can undo millions of years of evolution (or, if you're braindead, 6 days of perfect designing by God). Why don't elites do it? Because being faster doesn't make you smarter- elites overtrain, stay up too late, go out too fast, and drop out of races- same as the rest of us. But if you insist on examples of "elites" who train minimalist, I present the case of:

Every runner who was training before about 1975 and managed to run far more and far faster than most of us.

Nearly all Kenyans, until they get sponsored and get free shoes.

Most Ethiopians (I believe Geb trains in the same flats he races marathons in).

Over 90% of Japanese (I have a contact over in Japan who says you have to search far and wide to find a shoe store that carries anything more supportive than what we would call a "performance trainer." Most Japanese runners- not elites, but most of them, even the hobby joggers and fitness people, run in shoes barely more cushioned than piranhas.).

I should point out that Kenya, Ethiopia, and Japan have much DEEPER performance lists than us- suggesting that, in America, a 28:00 10k runner is a pretty talented hard worker who is lucky enough to be born with the durability necessary to withstand crippled feet and the problems that brings. In the other three countries, more guys can stay healthy, and so you have more runners who ran fast because they can be more consistent and do more overall work than their American counterparts.

But yes, it's just a fad. A 200,000 year old fad that has almost universal acceptance outside the Western world, (which is the only part of the world where 8 out of 10 runners a year miss time for stress or impact related injuries) and has in fact only entrenched itself in the Western world over the last 25-35 years or so. By the way, notice our performances declined and injury rates increased when all those specialty shoes were introduced? Correlation might not imply causation. . . but the correlation is there nonetheless.

[mentle bentle]

How about this for an idea? The people who think wearing flats will help them, wear flats, and the people who prefer trainers, wear trainers. It's all about personal preference and should be taken on an individual basis.
Personally, I like to wear flats for tempos and intervals and trainers for easy and long runs. But it all depends on what you feel more comfortable in and what will help your training the most.

Oh and this thread is about what shoes you train in and not a debate over minimalism right?
For me currently:
New balance 903
Pearl Izumi Streak

[LongRedLine4H]

How about this for an idea? The people who think wearing flats will help them, wear flats, and the people who prefer trainers, wear trainers. It's all about personal preference and should be taken on an individual basis.

You can argue that 1 + 1 = 11 all you want, and you can convince people that's correct, but unfortunately, my fellow Americans, "fact" is a pain in the neck for the simple reason that it isn't democratic.

[RebelXC]

FatherRussia, I'm a little surprised at your ability to completely forget everything you've learned in biology.

Over a period of millions of years, humans developed to run for prolonged periods of time with minimal footwear. Over the last 50 years, more and more industrialization of our society has to led to an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. 50 years of recent history trumps millions of years of evolution? Don't make me laugh.

There are many reasons why suddenly running for less than an hour a day is "Good training" and the damaging crap we restrict our feet in is one of those reasons. Unlike many of the posters here, I'm not foolish enough to put all the blame on one variable that is difficult to isolate. In fact, in distance running, we can't isolate ANY one variable and say "oh, this is why there was improvement/decline." It's almost always a combination of things.

It displays a weakness in mental acuity to believe a lazy generation or two can undo millions of years of evolution (or, if you're braindead, 6 days of perfect designing by God). Why don't elites do it? Because being faster doesn't make you smarter- elites overtrain, stay up too late, go out too fast, and drop out of races- same as the rest of us. But if you insist on examples of "elites" who train minimalist, I present the case of:

Every runner who was training before about 1975 and managed to run far more and far faster than most of us.

Nearly all Kenyans, until they get sponsored and get free shoes.

Most Ethiopians (I believe Geb trains in the same flats he races marathons in).

Over 90% of Japanese (I have a contact over in Japan who says you have to search far and wide to find a shoe store that carries anything more supportive than what we would call a "performance trainer." Most Japanese runners- not elites, but most of them, even the hobby joggers and fitness people, run in shoes barely more cushioned than piranhas.).

I should point out that Kenya, Ethiopia, and Japan have much DEEPER performance lists than us- suggesting that, in America, a 28:00 10k runner is a pretty talented hard worker who is lucky enough to be born with the durability necessary to withstand crippled feet and the problems that brings. In the other three countries, more guys can stay healthy, and so you have more runners who ran fast because they can be more consistent and do more overall work than their American counterparts.

But yes, it's just a fad. A 200,000 year old fad that has almost universal acceptance outside the Western world, (which is the only part of the world where 8 out of 10 runners a year miss time for stress or impact related injuries) and has in fact only entrenched itself in the Western world over the last 25-35 years or so. By the way, notice our performances declined and injury rates increased when all those specialty shoes were introduced? Correlation might not imply causation. . . but the correlation is there nonetheless.


There are just a few things wrong with this though...the anatomy of your average Kenyan/Ethiopian and the anatomy of your average american are 2 totally different things. And if you don't believe the human body can change in just a few hundred years than you are in for a rude awaking. Africans have been running barefoot since they became homo sapiens 200,000 years ago. Humans have been adapting or changing since the start. If we didn't than we'd still be walking on all 4 limb's. Now Im not saying that we've been making these drastic changes but these very small changes hundreds of years at a time. But even the small changes in the human body can make the biggest differences. One example: East Africans are have a slightly denser bones than most caucasians. This making them slightly less prone to stress fractures. If they are less prone to stress fractures than they can afford to run with less cushion/more barefoot running than the rest of the world. But this isn't the reason why they are so much faster than americans, they train in almost a near perfect environment. But back to the point we need the little more cushion in our running shoes for a reason. You get the right pair of shoes and some insoles and you can say good by to all the lower extremity injuries.

So you can pay attention all you want in biology but your not going to understand everything about the human body and , its just the basic course. Take a course in anatomy/anthropology to get a better understanding of all this. I left a few things out and gone into a little more detail in the paragraph above. But quiet frankly I don't feel like wasting my time telling another high school kid about what's better than what.

And the "minimalist" wonder why none of the pro's don't train in flats or all these other low cushioning shoes. They are getting paid millions by a company who has spent more research into shoes and feet, than NASA has putting a man on the moon. They make every shoe for a reason, pro's have a specific pair of shoes for every run/activity they do throughout the day. They just dont hop in a pair of trainers and have at it. One shoe company is Nike, you might be familiar with there Nike Free shoe. The shoe designers of the Free's said themselves that the shoe was made for very short runs lasting 1-3 miles once or twice a week and to walk around in everyday. And that they were only made to last about 200 miles It wasn't made for an everyday trainer.

[fastrunner12]

There are just a few things wrong with this though...the anatomy of your average Kenyan/Ethiopian and the anatomy of your average american are 2 totally different things. And if you don't believe the human body can change in just a few hundred years than you are in for a rude awaking. Africans have been running barefoot since they became homo sapiens 200,000 years ago. Humans have been adapting or changing since the start. If we didn't than we'd still be walking on all 4 limb's. Now Im not saying that we've been making these drastic changes but these very small changes hundreds of years at a time. But even the small changes in the human body can make the biggest differences. One example: East Africans are have a slightly denser bones than most caucasians. This making them slightly less prone to stress fractures. If they are less prone to stress fractures than they can afford to run with less cushion/more barefoot running than the rest of the world. But this isn't the reason why they are so much faster than americans, they train in almost a near perfect environment. But back to the point we need the little more cushion in our running shoes for a reason. You get the right pair of shoes and some insoles and you can say good by to all the lower extremity injuries.

So you can pay attention all you want in biology but your not going to understand everything about the human body and , its just the basic course. Take a course in anatomy/anthropology to get a better understanding of all this. I left a few things out and gone into a little more detail in the paragraph above. But quiet frankly I don't feel like wasting my time telling another high school kid about what's better than what.

And the "minimalist" wonder why none of the pro's don't train in flats or all these other low cushioning shoes. They are getting paid millions by a company who has spent more research into shoes and feet, than NASA has putting a man on the moon. They make every shoe for a reason, pro's have a specific pair of shoes for every run/activity they do throughout the day. They just dont hop in a pair of trainers and have at it. One shoe company is Nike, you might be familiar with there Nike Free shoe. The shoe designers of the Free's said themselves that the shoe was made for very short runs lasting 1-3 miles once or twice a week and to walk around in everyday. And that they were only made to last about 200 miles It wasn't made for an everyday trainer.

Good try, it's hard to come up with a response when you have no idea what you're talking about. You also completely missed/ignored his point about pros from OTHER countries doing what we call minimalism as their standard training. Countries that are much better than the United States at distance running.

EDIT: do you know why Africans have better bone density? It's because bone density is triggered by contact with the ground. It's not because they have it naturally, since they are training barefoot/in sandals/in flats they have a greater bone density compared Europeans/Americans whose feet/legs are protected from feeling the ground by supportive, cushioned shoes. If you don't believe, Google something along the lines of "bone density in cyclists." Since cyclists never make contact with the ground, while still doing a lot of vigorous exercise, they have poor bone density. The same could be applied to modern running/casual shoes, since the bones in the legs aren't stimulated like they are designed to, they become weaker.

Here's a few articles about poor bone density in cyclists:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/16/health/he-cycling16
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/is-bicycling-bad-for-your-bones/

[bobdaily123]

I enjoy how rebelxc attacked me because i am wearing marathoners, but was totally ignorant to the fact that people were wearing five fingers, granted they aren't wearing them for all of their runs, but that is more minimalist than flats.

what shoes do you run in rebelxc?

how many miles a week do you run?

and What are your prs?

[Demon Runner]

QFE if it ain't broke dont fix it.



Haha this was random as hell??? Im not saying that elites dont train in spikes because they all do. LOL

don't talk about elite runners not practicing minimalism when they clearly do?

[RebelXC]

Good try, it's hard to come up with a response when you have no idea what you're talking about. You also completely missed/ignored his point about pros from OTHER countries doing what we call minimalism as their standard training. Countries that are much better than the United States at distance running.

Well you missed the whole damn point were not other countries, were not ethiopian were not kenyan **** were not even jamaican.

[Demon Runner]

There are just a few things wrong with this though...the anatomy of your average Kenyan/Ethiopian and the anatomy of your average american are 2 totally different things. And if you don't believe the human body can change in just a few hundred years than you are in for a rude awaking. Africans have been running barefoot since they became homo sapiens 200,000 years ago. Humans have been adapting or changing since the start. If we didn't than we'd still be walking on all 4 limb's. Now Im not saying that we've been making these drastic changes but these very small changes hundreds of years at a time. But even the small changes in the human body can make the biggest differences. One example: East Africans are have a slightly denser bones than most caucasians. This making them slightly less prone to stress fractures. If they are less prone to stress fractures than they can afford to run with less cushion/more barefoot running than the rest of the world. But this isn't the reason why they are so much faster than americans, they train in almost a near perfect environment. But back to the point we need the little more cushion in our running shoes for a reason. You get the right pair of shoes and some insoles and you can say good by to all the lower extremity injuries.

So you can pay attention all you want in biology but your not going to understand everything about the human body and , its just the basic course. Take a course in anatomy/anthropology to get a better understanding of all this. I left a few things out and gone into a little more detail in the paragraph above. But quiet frankly I don't feel like wasting my time telling another high school kid about what's better than what.

And the "minimalist" wonder why none of the pro's don't train in flats or all these other low cushioning shoes. They are getting paid millions by a company who has spent more research into shoes and feet, than NASA has putting a man on the moon. They make every shoe for a reason, pro's have a specific pair of shoes for every run/activity they do throughout the day. They just dont hop in a pair of trainers and have at it. One shoe company is Nike, you might be familiar with there Nike Free shoe. The shoe designers of the Free's said themselves that the shoe was made for very short runs lasting 1-3 miles once or twice a week and to walk around in everyday. And that they were only made to last about 200 miles It wasn't made for an everyday trainer.

many lol's in here

[RebelXC]

I enjoy how rebelxc attacked me because i am wearing marathoners, but was totally ignorant to the fact that people were wearing five fingers, granted they aren't wearing them for all of their runs, but that is more minimalist than flats.

what shoes do you run in rebelxc?

how many miles a week do you run?

and What are your prs?

Peg's and Skylon's with custom insoles.
80 MPW on average
1:55, 4:14, 15:45xc


don't talk about elite runners not practicing minimalism when they clearly do?

Any americans???

[fastrunner12]

Well you missed the whole damn point were not other countries, were not ethiopian were not kenyan **** were not even jamaican.

You're hopeless. This doesn't refute anything that anyone said.

[fastrunner12]

Peg's and Skylon's with custom insoles.
80 MPW on average
1:55, 4:14, 15:45xc




Any americans???

Americans suck at distance running compared to most countries.

[RebelXC]

You're hopeless. This doesn't refute anything that anyone said.

You obviously didn't read the long as post I had.

Americans suck at distance running compared to most countries.

No Jamaica sucks at distance running, Americans are just average with a select few that can compete.

[bobdaily123]

Peg's and Skylon's with custom insoles.
80 MPW on average
1:55, 4:14, 15:45xc


nice

[RebelXC]

We have completely astray from the main point of this thread. But its like every other thread on dyestat start with one topic end with another.

[bobdaily123]

http://rofl.wheresthebeef.co.uk/Arguing%20Internet%20Special%20Olympics.jpg

see this kid run in minimalistic shoes

[LongRedLine4H]

RebelXC: A few hundred years DOES NOT change basic human anatomy. If I showed you the skeleton of a Kenyan runner and the skeleton of an American runner, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Any damage we've done to ourselves is because of lifestyle and is reversible. We have not "adapted" to the point where the East African and the American are somehow different species! And you didn't even TOUCH my point about the Japanese.

If one guy says the world is round and another insists its flat, it's not an argument. It's not really even a discussion. You can argue all you like, but the world is still round and the shoes most Americans wear are bad for the feet. Trying to argue either point is equally incorrect.

[luv2run]

Rebel, you are right that shoe companies spend millions and millions of dollars on research and development of shoes.

But here's what they don't want you to know: How much of that is on market research. They don't want to know what will prevent injuries or improve performance (except for spikes). They want to know what will sell well.

Fact is, there is no scientific evidence which shows that wearing more cushioned running shoes, or in fact any kind of shoe at all, will either prevent injury or improve training.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/bjsm.2008.046680v1

If you can find a reputable study that does I'll send you $17 in the mail and eat my hat as well.

[luv2run]

Oh, for the original topic. I train in:

A lot (currently):
Nike Lunar Racers
NB 902 series
Asics DS Trainers (edit, knew I missed one)

Somewhat, or a lot in the recent past:
Nike Elites
Nike Air Streaks
Asics Bandito

[shoot664]

i train in nike victories

[gcrunner]

You guys are beating a dead horse....

but for me:
asics ds trainer 13 for road
saucony progrid guide2 for road and trail and the gym
saucony kilkenny flats for grass runs and grass workouts
barefeet for nice, easy, short jogs on turf or nice grass

[pmeyers279]

I generally train in zoom elites and adidas supernova sequence.

We have completely astray from the main point of this thread. But its like every other thread on dyestat start with one topic end with another.

Please use commas (or a colon. that would have worked too). At least use actual verbs (astray? honestly? it's not a verb). Apostrophes would be useful here and in some of your other posts. In fact, you should probably just stop posting.

[Father Russia]

RebelXC: A few hundred years DOES NOT change basic human anatomy. If I showed you the skeleton of a Kenyan runner and the skeleton of an American runner, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Any damage we've done to ourselves is because of lifestyle and is reversible. We have not "adapted" to the point where the East African and the American are somehow different species! And you didn't even TOUCH my point about the Japanese.

If one guy says the world is round and another insists its flat, it's not an argument. It's not really even a discussion. You can argue all you like, but the world is still round and the shoes most Americans wear are bad for the feet. Trying to argue either point is equally incorrect.

I haven't read all the posts since I last posted, but I want to clarify what I was trying to say.

I wasn't saying there was any sort of genetic difference between a Modern American and our long-distance running ancestors, I know that isn't the case, I was just saying the way we develop is different. In the same way that people are much taller today than they were then (for example), modern people have a great deal of physical issues and structural problems that go along with the way our life styles have changed. The development of the human body is heavily effected by the life style led by the person through their young years. I firmly believe that if you spend the first 20 years of your life without shoes, you won't have any problems not wearing shoes for the next 20, that is just common sense!

But I also try to be realistic, if you consider 2 hours of tee-ball practice every other weekend to be the most exercise you get regularly until you are a teenager, and you spend 12 hours a day wearing sneakers, I just don't think that you will ever be able to manage running barefoot the way you could had you been active and shoeless your entire life. The structure of your feet will be fundamentally different from that of someone who spent their whole life requiring their feet to be strong. Just think of those tribal people who wear the rings on their necks to compress their collar bones, sneakers must have some sort of similar effect on the way your feet develop, even if it is much less pronounce.

There is the rub, at least in my interpretation, everyone had a different level of activity as they were growing up, and probably developed their legs with very subtle differences. Certainly there are people who played soccer since they were five and have very strong, well developed feet, but for every one of them, there are ten kids who had parents who just gave them "bob the builder" to watch, instead of taking them to the park. Eventually that adds up and the kid who spent his whole life being active will have better biomechanics than the one who spent a lot of time watching tv. So there are people who will benefit from running in flats, and there are people who will benefit from running in trainers, and there are people who can manage both, but I don't think suggesting minimalism as a corrective measure is wise. I mean, if my biggest biomechanical error is under-pronation, and I switch to flats to try to teach myself to pronate, I'm just as likely to hurt myself after a few weeks as I am to fix whatever flaw caused me not to pronate. Maybe given enough time that problem can be corrected, but I would have to risk injury and trade a lot of time potentially training to get that benefit. If I can find a pair of trainers that make under pronation a non-issue, why should I risk everything that swtiching to flats puts on the line?

At least that is my interpretation. Obviously training in flats works for some people, I don't need to look far to find that, but training in trainers works for just as many people. It is a very individual issue, and I wouldn't ever suggest to someone that they switch, unless they have a very very good reason to suspect that the alternative is going to provide them with a significant advantage.

[k-nat213]

I currently train in 2140s, but during track I did a lot of barefoot intervals because we always did them on a field and I have been playing a lot of barefoot ultimate frisbee. I'm considering trying going straight minimalist and I was wondering which would you minimalist runners would suggest, Streak XCs or Marathoners?

[fastrunner12]

I haven't read all the posts since I last posted, but I want to clarify what I was trying to say.

I wasn't saying there was any sort of genetic difference between a Modern American and our long-distance running ancestors, I know that isn't the case, I was just saying the way we develop is different. In the same way that people are much taller today than they were then (for example), modern people have a great deal of physical issues and structural problems that go along with the way our life styles have changed. The development of the human body is heavily effected by the life style led by the person through their young years. I firmly believe that if you spend the first 20 years of your life without shoes, you won't have any problems not wearing shoes for the next 20, that is just common sense!

But I also try to be realistic, if you consider 2 hours of tee-ball practice every other weekend to be the most exercise you get regularly until you are a teenager, and you spend 12 hours a day wearing sneakers, I just don't think that you will ever be able to manage running barefoot the way you could had you been active and shoeless your entire life. The structure of your feet will be fundamentally different from that of someone who spent their whole life requiring their feet to be strong. Just think of those tribal people who wear the rings on their necks to compress their collar bones, sneakers must have some sort of similar effect on the way your feet develop, even if it is much less pronounce.

There is the rub, at least in my interpretation, everyone had a different level of activity as they were growing up, and probably developed their legs with very subtle differences. Certainly there are people who played soccer since they were five and have very strong, well developed feet, but for every one of them, there are ten kids who had parents who just gave them "bob the builder" to watch, instead of taking them to the park. Eventually that adds up and the kid who spent his whole life being active will have better biomechanics than the one who spent a lot of time watching tv. So there are people who will benefit from running in flats, and there are people who will benefit from running in trainers, and there are people who can manage both, but I don't think suggesting minimalism as a corrective measure is wise. I mean, if my biggest biomechanical error is under-pronation, and I switch to flats to try to teach myself to pronate, I'm just as likely to hurt myself after a few weeks as I am to fix whatever flaw caused me not to pronate. Maybe given enough time that problem can be corrected, but I would have to risk injury and trade a lot of time potentially training to get that benefit. If I can find a pair of trainers that make under pronation a non-issue, why should I risk everything that swtiching to flats puts on the line?

At least that is my interpretation. Obviously training in flats works for some people, I don't need to look far to find that, but training in trainers works for just as many people. It is a very individual issue, and I wouldn't ever suggest to someone that they switch, unless they have a very very good reason to suspect that the alternative is going to provide them with a significant advantage.

The flaw in your argument is that the strength that our feet once had can be regained. I played basketball as a kid, and wore the same cushioned, supportive shoes that everyone else did. I've been in the same shoes (no pun intended) as everyone for nearly my whole life. I only took up barefoot running and transitioning to minimalism about a year ago, and I had immediate benefits.

First, my speed improved immensely, I ran a 3 second PR in the 400 in a just-for-fun track meet that I ran in off of my XC fitness.

Secondly, it allowed me to handle a giant increase in volume, I nearly doubled my high school mileage going into my first year of college XC (35 mpw to 60 mpw). This coming after a high school career where I had 2 XC seasons completely wiped out by injuries (IT band sophomore year, achilles tendonitis junior year) and indoor track season nearly ruined (shin splits senior year) off of only 35 or 40 miles a week. The summer before my freshman year I began to train a little bit more minimalist, and just 2 months of training that way made me much more injury resistant than I had ever been.

Since I started my transition, I've only had 2 injuries of any significance, a knee problem caused by some tightness in my quad (which was fixed in one visit to an active release therapist) and a minor incidence of hamstring tendinitis. In the latter, my hamstring only acted up when I was wearing my trainers or flats - I could run barefoot with no pain, so I was able to run about 30 mpw barefoot for the 2.5 weeks that the problem persisted.

But most importantly I think training this way is going to allow me to keep running for a very long time. I hear about all the time who have to quit running when they are older because of chronic injuries and pain. I don't want that to be me. I think it's well worth it to spend another year or so working on becoming a full time minimalist so I can have a lifetime of good running ahead of me. Even if it takes 2 or 3 more years before my feet have the strength and my body has the biomechanics to handle full time minimalism, I think it will be well worth it when I can continue running for the next 30 or 40 years.

EDIT: Basically my point is that the weak feet and poor biomechanics that are often caused by the American lifestyle can be fixed, with a little hard work (something I guess Americans aren't used to), and can have great effects both short and long term.

[Demon Runner]

yea, i used to have flat feet before i started doing workouts in spikes and things last fall. now i'm minimalist for morning runs and workouts and my arches are medium at worst. haven't had shin splints in ages, and i always used to have shin splints (never injured or slowed me down, but it would hurt like hell if i bumped into something)

[Father Russia]

I guess if we are using anecdotal evidence, I switched from neutral trainers to trainers that corrected my under pronation, and despite consistent injury issues training at or near 40 mpw prior to the switch, I was able to go from 30 mpw to 60 in 3 weeks and have held my mileage there successfully for four and a half weeks with no injury, dropped 30 seconds off my mile, and 1:40 off my two mile.

[LongRedLine4H]

I guess if we are using anecdotal evidence, I switched from neutral trainers to trainers that corrected my under pronation, and despite consistent injury issues training at or near 40 mpw prior to the switch, I was able to go from 30 mpw to 60 in 3 weeks and have held my mileage there successfully for four and a half weeks with no injury, dropped 30 seconds off my mile, and 1:40 off my two mile.

Having crutches makes it easier to walk in the short term, but we don't use 'em all the time, do we?

[Father Russia]

Having crutches makes it easier to walk in the short term, but we don't use 'em all the time, do we?

:rolleyes:

[Spiked]

...

You're looking at this whole minimalism thing as a way to solve a problem, which IMO is not the way to look at it. Yes, I believe it can solve a lot of problems for some people who are naturally injury prone, but that's not why a lot of people do it. Use your reasoning about your switch to trainers allowing you to pronate better. Also I'm assuming a lot of things here but bear with me.

You've been running in regular trainers since the start of your career. You've had injury problems and switched to a trainer that corrects your main issue and is keeping you from being injured as much, and that's great. BUT, all that means is that you've gone from negative back to ground zero.

I obviously don't know how good (or bad) your mechanics are, but I'm willing to bet that while they probably aren't that bad, they're not the best either. And I'm also willing to bet your feet, arches, ankles, and lower legs in general are a lot weaker than somebody who involves even a moderate amount of barefoot running in their schedule. What I'm trying to say is that minimalism isn't necessarily a solution to a problem, but simply another way to improve your performance. Like core work, like eating the right foods, like strides, etc.

I think arguing the whole "I pr'ed by 30 seconds in the mile after switching to minimalism" is a pretty dumb way to approach this issue. This sport isn't that simple. There's no input-output math formula that's going to improve your times by x seconds for every little thing you do. It's all one big cohesive mess of things that only a very few people in the world can begin to understand with any real accuracy, and none of which post on dyestat.

The argument here should be about what stronger feet and legs, along with an improvement in your mechanics, can do for your running. If you use common sense you can probably deduce that someone with stronger feet will lose less energy with every step, and someone with less braking in their stride will, again, lose less energy due to constant stopping, starting, and isolation of muscle groups. Minimalism is just something that helps develop these systems. You can't really argue that these strengths won't help your running, and you can't really argue that minimalism doesn't improve said strengths, so I guess I'm just not really sure what you're trying to prove here. That injury prone people won't benefit from it because they'll get injured before any improvement is seen? Maybe, if you do it in a stupid way yes. Some people can jump right in and be completely fine. Some people need a bit of an adjusting period. You may need to gradually switch over a few months. Or a year. Whatever works. But unless you have a real problem like a bone deficiency or something real, real serious like that, then you can't tell me that you can't make the switch.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this anymore. And it's past my bed time. So goodnight.

[DoIHave2RunNow]

I'm loving my adidas supernovas. I feel like it took at least 3 days to break in any Asics shoe I would run in. But with these supernova sequence I never felt uncomfortable. It's so nice!

[RebelXC]

You guys are beating a dead horse....

but for me:
asics ds trainer 13 for road
saucony progrid guide2 for road and trail and the gym
saucony kilkenny flats for grass runs and grass workouts
barefeet for nice, easy, short jogs on turf or nice grass

This horse has been dead for awhile.

Half the kids doing the whole "minimalist" thing probably don't have PR's under 4:20.

What shoes you train aren't going to make or break you as a runner, unless your going to get hurt in them. I just don't think the whole training in flats thing isn't going to cure all your problems overnight. There are 1000's of different little things in distance running, with over 1000's of problems and millions of answers/opinions.

[luv2run]

This horse has been dead for awhile.

Half the kids doing the whole "minimalist" thing probably don't have PR's under 4:20. You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better... but you're sidestepping the issue. Anyway, I think with Born to Run coming out and this idea just now making it into the mainstream (as opposed to the fringes like dyestat), the horse is just now popping out of the womb. Yes there was the Nike Free but shoe companies will be going on the defensive and it'll be interesting to see what happens.

What shoes you train aren't going to make or break you as a runner, unless your going to get hurt in them. I just don't think the whole training in flats thing isn't going to cure all your problems overnight. There are 1000's of different little things in distance running, with over 1000's of problems and millions of answers/opinions.
I think Spiked's perspective was great. Barefoot running is just a training tool, like weights or strides or tempo runs, and if it's incorporated carefully into a training system you'll see the benefits and avoid injury. Minimalism as a running philosophy is broader, but you don't have to go all the way to get some benefits.

[LongRedLine4H]

This isn't a discussion along the same vein as "how much speed work?" or "how often should I lit?" because those discussions are largely based on preference. Human anatomy is not based on preference.

Let's not make this into a spitting contest about PRs, because 1) for every good American you can name who wears trainers, I can name 3 or 4 faster minimalists and 2) appealing to speed is not a great way to win arguments- Herb Elliot was a 3:35 1500m runner in 1960 who smoked regularly, that doesn't mean smoking doesn't effect performance.

[runxc6792]

While some of you may have problems with minimalistic training, the ideas surrounding it are certainly correct. When we wear shoes, be them stability, motion control, whatever the shoe type, we are merely using a crutch to help us with our foot and foot positioning problems, rather than actually teaching our feet and bodies how to fix these problems.

For an abbreviated example, my ankles are very weak and so I have a high stability shoe that helps to keep them straightened. However, if we train our bodies to run in these cushioned and high technology shoes, it does not teach us how to run properly on our own. In my own case I began to collapse in on my legs and roll in on my ankle.

You cannot argue with the minimalism philosophy.

[Father Russia]

When we wear shoes, be them stability, motion control, whatever the shoe type, we are merely using a crutch to help us with our foot and foot positioning problems, rather than actually teaching our feet and bodies how to fix these problems.

You're looking at this whole minimalism thing as a way to solve a problem, which IMO is not the way to look at it.

See, I find this confusing.

[runxc6792]

See, I find this confusing.

Yea, I have no idea what he is talking about.

I guess I would say that the shoes are hiding the problem and putting it to a temporary rest aka a crutch sort of thing, while minimalist is making you fix that problem.

[RebelXC]

I've never had any major injuries due to running, and things are going well right now running in trainers. So I don't see any point in trying to fix a problem that isn't there.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better... but you're sidestepping the issue. Anyway, I think with Born to Run coming out and this idea just now making it into the mainstream (as opposed to the fringes like dyestat), the horse is just now popping out of the womb. Yes there was the Nike Free but shoe companies will be going on the defensive and it'll be interesting to see what happens.


I think Spiked's perspective was great. Barefoot running is just a training tool, like weights or strides or tempo runs, and if it's incorporated carefully into a training system you'll see the benefits and avoid injury. Minimalism as a running philosophy is broader, but you don't have to go all the way to get some benefits.

Yeah I think it is a running tool but I just don't think it needs to be done every day, workouts in spikes/flats and barefoot strides but this is just my opinion.

See, I find this confusing.

Yep

Edit: I think we can all agree on one thing; the idiot running 150 miles isn't going to make any progress.

[Conquistador]

Running Times has a link to an article by the Denver Post on barefoot running.


Running barefoot kicks up mixed emotions
Dispute over muscle freedom
POSTED: 07/22/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT
UPDATED: 07/22/2009 12:39:42 PM MDT


Runners go barefoot in the park at the first meeting of the Barefoot Runners Club in Boulder's Martin Park. (Reza A. Marvashti, The Denver Post )
The pavement begins to warm under the summer Colorado sun as Michael Sandler jogs up Flagstaff Road near Boulder. Normally, this shouldn't concern a runner. Sandler, however, is jogging barefoot.

"When you are barefoot, you are forced to run the way ancient man ran, which is a soft dance," Sandler said. "Even my upper body got stronger."

He claims he can run farther and with less chance of injury now that he has left his running shoes in the closet. He's far from the only runner who believes so. The number of barefoot runners appears to be a growing niche among the running community. Those who run barefoot maintain it helps them keep a stride that delivers less shock to the foot, helping prevent injuries.

But experts caution that only a small percentage of runners can successfully train sans shoes.

"Your muscles, tendons and bones are balanced if your shoe is properly fit and your foot is properly supported," said Eugene Rosenthal, a local podiatrist, who said he would never recommend running barefoot.

The concept of running without shoes can be hard to wrap your mind around, mainly because so few people in this country have ever tried it.

"I would say 98 percent of the U.S. do not grow up barefoot, walking barefoot, going to school barefoot," said Mark Plaatjes, a physical therapist and owner of Boulder Running Company. "If you do not grow up barefoot, it is a really difficult thing to do."

But Ethiopian Abebe Bikila did grow up running barefoot, and he won the 1960 Olympic marathon in Rome unshod.

The beauty of running barefoot, say its true believers, is that your feet will adapt naturally to almost any surface.

"You have to start very slow, like a baby that is starting to walk," Sandler said. "When you start slow, you will find a natural stride that is the softest, most efficient way to move, because you are feeling the ground."

Mr. Natural goes barefoot

Most runners who come into Plaatjes' store have one thing in common. Their feet are giving them problems. And barefoot running will do nothing to solve that, he said.

"They come here for us to fix the problems," said Plaatjes, who won the marathon at the 1993 world championships. "If we let them run barefoot, it's not going to work. It's not going to be pretty."

They want help dealing with issues regarding their feet, or suggestions on their running stride, and they come to Plaatjes for guidance. Most require the aid of either specialty shoes to train in or orthotics, which are custom-made inserts that go in a shoe and support the foot.

"They say if you wear an orthotic it's like wearing a cast, you don't allow the foot to move," Plaatjes said. "Not true, not true at all. We are trying to limit excessive motion."

But Ivo Waerlop, a Summit County chiropractor, begs to differ.

"The major problem with footwear is there is little activation of intrinsic muscles of feet," said Waerlop, who does some form of barefoot training with many of his clients.

Barefoot running allows muscles to strengthen and work in different ways than they are familiar with while in shoes, Waerlop said. Runners experience a more natural stride when they are barefoot, he said. When in training shoes, runners are more likely to land on their heel before rocking through to the toes, he believes. Without shoes, the forefront of the foot takes the brunt of the force, but then the calf muscle gently lowers the heel, creating a softer stride.

"When you take away the feeling of the impact of your feet hitting the ground, you end up putting much more impact into your body than if you felt it and adjusted your stride," said Barefoot Ted, perhaps the most well-known barefoot running enthusiast. He lives in Washington and has spread the gospel of barefoot running for five years.

"The more padded the shoe has become, the more impact people are putting into their body," Barefoot Ted said.

Sandler, who lives in Boulder, agrees. "I hit on the balls of my feet," he said. "It gives me the ability to roll my foot and make constant adjustments for a good stride."

Sandler runs an average of 80 miles a week and does approximately 70 percent of his distance barefoot. Like most dedicated barefoot runners, he's developed thick calluses on his feet.

No shoes = bigger smiles

But Barefoot Ted and Sandler are on the extreme side of the barefoot spectrum. Most runners who do barefoot training log a few miles a week but do most of their training with shoes.

"I can definitely feel, even when I'm in my shoes, I'm more aware of my foot strikes," said Jeremy Grev, who is training for the 5430 Long Course Triathlon in Boulder. "I feel better and more efficient on my runs."

Grev works out with a local trainer, and he isn't the only one seeking help to learn the barefoot method. Sixteen runners came together at Martin Park in Boulder last Saturday for the first meet-up of the Barefoot Running Club, hosted by Sandler.

"It was like watching kids at the park," he said. "Everyone had a beaming, ear-to-ear smile on their face."

The group went through a variety of foot-strengthening exercises, including scrunching their toes and walking on coarse sand in a nearby playground. After the runners had dispersed, the message board on the meet-up site was hot with comments.

"A fantastic and just downright fun experience," wrote Scott.

According to Sandler, participants were already trying to set up weekly runs outside of the Saturday meet-up.

"We are on some sort of a beginning of a wave. It seems like it's going to really take off."

Anica Wong: 303-954-1720 or awong@denverpost.com

The trendsetters

A look at well-known barefoot runners:

Ethiopian Abebe Bikila won the 1960 Olympic marathon running barefoot through the cobblestone streets of Rome.

South African Zola Budd is best known for her controversial 3,000-meter race at the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, where some say she bumped American runner Mary Decker, causing Decker to fall.

Charlie "Doc" Robbins won two USA National Marathon Championships in the late 1940s.

No bare tootsies in high school

Rules concerning barefoot running:

CHSAA: Colorado high school runners must race in shoes.

NCAA: College and university runners may compete in bare feet.

USA Track and Field: A competitor may compete in bare feet or with footwear on one or both feet.

Barely there

A look at state-of-the-art shoes that might make it feel like you're running barefoot.

Nike Free 5.0

You can practically fold the Nike Free in half it's so flexible. The shoe, which weighs 8.5 ounces, tries to imitate running barefoot while providing protection from the elements and some cushioning.

Vibram FiveFingers

The FiveFingers might look weird on your feet, but barefoot runners who don't want to bare it all swear by this quasi-shoe, which weighs five ounces. It has individual toe compartments and a thin sole. There is no cushioning, so you will maintain the same stride as you would if you were sans shoes.

The barefoot spectrum

Types of barefoot runners

1. The "I'm never wearing shoes again" type

These are the people who run most of their miles without shoes and enjoy being barefoot during the day when they aren't hitting the pavement or the trail. A tiny fraction of runners.

2. The "This feels good" type

This group of runners will train several days a week barefoot, but still do some runs with shoes.

3. The "I enjoy a run on the golf course now and then" type

These people understand the benefits of strengthening their muscles by taking a cruise around a golf course or football field unshod, but do the majority of their running with shoes.

4. The "You'll never get me to go barefoot" type

These are people who do not have the foot structure to run barefoot without getting injured.


You can find the article at http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12887617.

[uncle jim]

lol type 1 :rolleyes:

[Spiked]

See, I find this confusing.

I've never had any major injuries due to running, and things are going well right now running in trainers. So I don't see any point in trying to fix a problem that isn't there.

FR, you find this confusing still because instead of really trying to understand what several people have been trying to explain to you, you'd rather think of ways to cleverly quote different pieces of things people write that when isolated and compared show what APPEARS to be to different perspectives on the same issue.

RXC, you are still confused because you're still looking at this completely the wrong way. I bolded what is wrong with your post.

So lets PAY ATTENTION this time. I will use the core strength thing again to try and do this one more time.

Why do people do core work? To strengthen the muscles that support their posture when running in order to be more efficient. Now, I'm sure there are tons of kids out there running in HS, hell maybe even a few in college, who have never done a sit up in their life and are running just fine. But they still have a weak core. It's not going to injure them, but doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room for improvement there.

Yeah I think it is a running tool but I just don't think it needs to be done every day

Who ever said it needs to be done every day? If you consider yourself a true minimalist and are running out there everyday in flats, then yes it's an everyday thing, but that's not what most people need. I do not consider myself a "minimalist" to any real degree. I train in Skylons and I finish up some of my distance days with barefoot running (6-10 mins worth) on a grass field. I would estimate that I do that 3 or 4 times a week. On rare occasions I will do strides barefoot. I'm not telling you that you should be running in flats every day and that that is the only way you'll benefit. Actually I think for most people who run more than 30-40% of their mileage on roads, that running in flats would be stupid, as that's very tough on your entire body. But doing absolutely no barefoot running or anything else to help improve your efficiency is the exact same thing as neglecting your core work, upper body strength, stretching routine, eating ****ty foods, etc. It's just that for some reason working on your mechanics has flown largely under the radar as opposed to the other things that even ****ty high school programs have down pat.

Why that is is a different topic however...



EDIT: From the above article...

3. The "I enjoy a run on the golf course now and then" type

These people understand the benefits of strengthening their muscles by taking a cruise around a golf course or football field unshod, but do the majority of their running with shoes.

^ This is what every serious runner should aim to be. You don't need to be running around barefoot all day to get most of the benefits which is where most of you are confused I think.

4. The "You'll never get me to go barefoot" type

These are people who do not have the foot structure to run barefoot without getting injured.

^ This is what some of you think you are. Like I said before, probably 5-10% of runners are actually too injury prone to ever attempt barefoot running. Most of you just think you are, and with a careful and conservative plan over the right time period, will adjust just fine, and be better off for it.

[pmeyers279]

This horse has been dead for awhile.

Half the kids doing the whole "minimalist" thing probably don't have PR's under 4:20.

What shoes you train aren't going to make or break you as a runner, unless your going to get hurt in them. I just don't think the whole training in flats thing isn't going to cure all your problems overnight. There are 1000's of different little things in distance running, with over 1000's of problems and millions of answers/opinions.

Well if you can train your shoes then no wonder you think minimalism is bull****. Please! Teach me!

[Big K]

I've been running competitively for 6 years now. These past 4 years I've been running in Asics 2100s and I've never been injured. I've had the minor aches and pains associated with running, but never anything that has required me to take off 2 days or more from running. My college is sponsored by Asics and 90% of the team trains in either 2140s or ds trainers. I see no point in switching to minimalism when I've never experienced an injury. In my opinion consistent training>whatever foot muscles I may develop by switching.

[luv2run]

I've been running competitively for 6 years now. These past 4 years I've been running in Asics 2100s and I've never been injured. I've had the minor aches and pains associated with running, but never anything that has required me to take off 2 days or more from running. My college is sponsored by Asics and 90% of the team trains in either 2140s or ds trainers. I see no point in switching to minimalism when I've never experienced an injury. In my opinion consistent training>whatever foot muscles I may develop by switching.I see your point but agree with Strider (though that was kind of condescending at first). If you've been running for years injury-free without doing core work, it doesn't mean situps won't help you improve. The same analogy can be made with just about any training tool.

[CGull]

Pearl Izumi Streaks
Pearl Izumi Peak XCs
Brooks ST3s
Pearl Izumi Floats

I rotate a lot of shoes.

Past shoes...
Skylon
Vomero
Pearl Izumi Shine
Asics DS Trainer
Saucony Grid Sinister
Air Zoom Miler

[RebelXC]

FR, you find this confusing still because instead of really trying to understand what several people have been trying to explain to you, you'd rather think of ways to cleverly quote different pieces of things people write that when isolated and compared show what APPEARS to be to different perspectives on the same issue.

RXC, you are still confused because you're still looking at this completely the wrong way. I bolded what is wrong with your post.

So lets PAY ATTENTION this time. I will use the core strength thing again to try and do this one more time.

Why do people do core work? To strengthen the muscles that support their posture when running in order to be more efficient. Now, I'm sure there are tons of kids out there running in HS, hell maybe even a few in college, who have never done a sit up in their life and are running just fine. But they still have a weak core. It's not going to injure them, but doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room for improvement there.



Who ever said it needs to be done every day? If you consider yourself a true minimalist and are running out there everyday in flats, then yes it's an everyday thing, but that's not what most people need. I do not consider myself a "minimalist" to any real degree. I train in Skylons and I finish up some of my distance days with barefoot running (6-10 mins worth) on a grass field. I would estimate that I do that 3 or 4 times a week. On rare occasions I will do strides barefoot. I'm not telling you that you should be running in flats every day and that that is the only way you'll benefit. Actually I think for most people who run more than 30-40% of their mileage on roads, that running in flats would be stupid, as that's very tough on your entire body. But doing absolutely no barefoot running or anything else to help improve your efficiency is the exact same thing as neglecting your core work, upper body strength, stretching routine, eating ****ty foods, etc. It's just that for some reason working on your mechanics has flown largely under the radar as opposed to the other things that even ****ty high school programs have down pat.

Why that is is a different topic however...




Alright now were starting to agree on something. Lets say my average week is 80 MPW in season, lets say I do 3-4 workouts(anything from Steady States to Short Intervals) averaging about 6 miles during the workout not including the wu/cd. We do strides twice a week (8x150 stride,250 jog on track). So I could be running anywhere from 22-28 miles a week in spikes/flats. Thats between 27-35% of my mileage a week. This is not a small amount of mileage at all. I lift weights twice a week and do core work similar to a decathlete's core work. So my muscles are getting plenty of strength work. I just don't see the point of running the rest of the or a big percentage of my mileage in flats if I'm going to be on concrete,dirt/gravel roads(I know dirt roads are good for you but it would be impossible to not step on a rock that sends a pain up your leg) for the rest of this mileage.


Well if you can train your shoes then no wonder you think minimalism is bull****. Please! Teach me!

Your an idiot,go back to letsrun.

I've been running competitively for 6 years now. These past 4 years I've been running in Asics 2100s and I've never been injured. I've had the minor aches and pains associated with running, but never anything that has required me to take off 2 days or more from running. My college is sponsored by Asics and 90% of the team trains in either 2140s or ds trainers. I see no point in switching to minimalism when I've never experienced an injury. In my opinion consistent training>whatever foot muscles I may develop by switching.

Im in the same boat as you.

I see your point but agree with Strider (though that was kind of condescending at first). If you've been running for years injury-free without doing core work, it doesn't mean situps won't help you improve. The same analogy can be made with just about any training tool.

I forgot why I even quoted you...

[bdub525]

nike lunar trainer
brooks t5
nike skylon x3 pair
adidas adizero pr

my last 4 training shoes/ones i currently have

[RebelXC]

nike lunar trainer
brooks t5
nike skylon x3 pair
adidas adizero pr

my last 4 training shoes/ones i currently have

How do you like the skylons?

Everyone I have talked to in person has hated them...

Edit:Thats one of the two trainers I run in and I love them. The other pair are the Peg's

[runxc6792]

in the last year

asic ds trainer
asic 1130
asic 2130
asic kayano
Nike pegasus
mizuno wave rider
NB 769

couple of these I have had to stop wearing after pretty low mileage ie 1130's

[Spiked]

Alright now were starting to agree on something. Lets say my average week is 80 MPW in season, lets say I do 3-4 workouts(anything from Steady States to Short Intervals) averaging about 6 miles during the workout not including the wu/cd. We do strides twice a week (8x150 stride,250 jog on track). So I could be running anywhere from 22-28 miles a week in spikes/flats. Thats between 27-35% of my mileage a week. This is not a small amount of mileage at all. I lift weights twice a week and do core work similar to a decathlete's core work. So my muscles are getting plenty of strength work. I just don't see the point of running the rest of the or a big percentage of my mileage in flats if I'm going to be on concrete,dirt/gravel roads(I know dirt roads are good for you but it would be impossible to not step on a rock that sends a pain up your leg) for the rest of this mileage.

First, I wouldn't expect you to switch to doing entire runs in flats, especially if you are running on roads, and though dirt roads are better for you, I certainly understand the rockyness. Second, you are doing a bunch of miles with flats or spikes, but until you learn to run completely the right way, (barefoot) that doesn't necessarily mean it's doing you any good. Just look at kids racing in spikes who heel strike like mofos and have terrible form. Like I said 5-10 mins barefoot on grass to finish up distance runs and maybe the occasional cool down is the ideal way, IMO, to incorporate a bit of "minimalism" into the schedule practically. If you do start to do this, after awhile you'll start to feel when your running efficiently and when your getting sloppy, even if you're in trainers on distance runs and such. This is where you want to be ideally, because then you're always trying to keep good form and a good footstrike, and when you are constantly evaluating yourself like that, that's when you are going to start seeing a real improvement in your form.

How do you like the skylons?

Everyone I have talked to in person has hated them...

Edit:Thats one of the two trainers I run in and I love them. The other pair are the Peg's

I know you didn't ask me but since that's what I train in I thought I'd give you my feelings. I think they are pretty great. Nice low heel so you can run in them correctly, enough cushioning for roads, but only if ran in correctly. Nice and flexible, it's easy to run fast in them. Good compromise between a minimal shoe and a traditional trainer.

[pmeyers279]

Your an idiot,go back to letsrun.


My an idiot?

[shoot664]

I guess if we are using anecdotal evidence, I switched from neutral trainers to trainers that corrected my under pronation, and despite consistent injury issues training at or near 40 mpw prior to the switch, I was able to go from 30 mpw to 60 in 3 weeks and have held my mileage there successfully for four and a half weeks with no injury, dropped 30 seconds off my mile, and 1:40 off my two mile.

you run 4:16 now? damn

[mgcc]

Lunaracers, Katana Rac3r 3s, OG streaks.

[Father Russia]

you run 4:16 now? damn

I know rite.

[XcCris]

I rotate between:
Brooks Infiniti I
Brooks Adrenaline 9
Brooks Glycerin 6

Going to retire the Infiniti's soon.
Thinking about either Lunar Trainers, Lunaracers, or Lunar Glide.
Any advice on which is better

[vano]

I rotate through:
Nike Marathoner
Asics Gel DS Racer VII
Mizuno Wave Idaten
Reebok Compeitition Flat

and I'm getting a pair of streaks soon.

[Father Russia]

You see, now I want to try doing some runs in flats.

If I take shoes that have removable spikes and put in blanks, can I run with them on asphalt or will it **** them up? I've got a couple of old junky flats I could use.

[mgcc]

You see, now I want to try doing some runs in flats.

If I take shoes that have removable spikes and put in blanks, can I run with them on asphalt or will it **** them up? I've got a couple of old junky flats I could use.

Just buy flats.

[Father Russia]

Just buy flats.

I'm not made of money.

Also, the real reason is there isn't a specialty running shop in the area.

Wait, let me google this.

[luv2run]

You see, now I want to try doing some runs in flats.

If I take shoes that have removable spikes and put in blanks, can I run with them on asphalt or will it **** them up? I've got a couple of old junky flats I could use.Haven't tried, but it seems like it'd be slippery (depending on the shoe and how much rubber meets the road vs. metal).

You'd be better off on softer surfaces anyway of course...if you're on a road, you probably don't need to have anything in at all, including blanks.

[FireontheTrack11]

Kayano 15's...I was psyched up about getting them, but I feel like they're a little heavy for my liking. Not too bad though, considering the bulk of my running right now is just for mileage anyways. Wouldn't recommend for speed-intense training, at least for lighter runners. Might return to the 21xx line afterwards.

Random, but does anyone know anywhere online where the old school marathoners (red stripe and navy blue swoosh) are available? and has anyone trained in marathoners before? It's just a cool idea I considered once, not sure if I'd ever make it a reality. If i were to hear real good things, I might.

[RFXCrunner]

and has anyone trained in marathoners before? It's just a cool idea I considered once, not sure if I'd ever make it a reality. If i were to hear real good things, I might.

Lol, you should read more around these parts. Many people on this board train in Marathoners (and lighter shoes) full time.

[FireontheTrack11]

Lol, you should read more around these parts. Many people on this board train in Marathoners (and lighter shoes) full time.

I know, it's a weakness of mine. There are 13 pages on this thread? Forward to page 13. In other words, I'm sure if I looked around I could find the information, but more power to those who can stumble upon it when the time is convenient just as easily.

[Dyenimator]

DS Trainer
Wave Elixir

[bobdaily123]

Random, but does anyone know anywhere online where the old school marathoners (red stripe and navy blue swoosh) are available? and has anyone trained in marathoners before? It's just a cool idea I considered once, not sure if I'd ever make it a reality. If i were to hear real good things, I might.

I've been running in the marathoners and I really like them. I picked them up cheap and have been running in them full time this summer and i have liked them. if I were you i would start running barefoot a few times so that your feet become stronger and your body becomes more use to very little cushioning. I would have rather had a pair of luna racers, but the marathoners were allot cheaper. I'll probably pick up a pair of racers to train in cross country, that or the new streaks

[vano]

I've been running in the marathoners and I really like them. I picked them up cheap and have been running in them full time this summer and i have liked them. if I were you i would start running barefoot a few times so that your feet become stronger and your body becomes more use to very little cushioning. I would have rather had a pair of luna racers, but the marathoners were allot cheaper. I'll probably pick up a pair of racers to train in cross country, that or the new streaks

streaks

[schafer]

I use Asics GT-2130 for 50-60 mpw.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3798/tn8040160m.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/tn8040160m.jpg/)

[oof47]

Anyone ever run in a pair of Brooks Launch. Just got them yesterday so im not really sure about them yet. if anyone has them or had them id like to know if you liked them or not.

[steeple923]

Speedstars for track, Trail Shoes(usually Sauconys) for Cross-and Winter.

[324an]

Anyone ever run in a pair of Brooks Launch. Just got them yesterday so im not really sure about them yet. if anyone has them or had them id like to know if you liked them or not.

lol And you did this after you got the shoes why? I like 'em a lot...nice and cushioned, a lot of cushion actually. Helped my shins out since I was running in 2yr old trainers for the previous 7 weeks. I'll probably try to use these until my shins hurt again, so I'm hoping they last me at least until the end of the year. Nice to have some protection for your feet but still decently light...they are a bit high off the ground though.

Overall I'd definitely say they were a good purchase.

[Conquistador]

I train in Lunar Racers, the Streak XC2, Wave Riders, and the Free 5.0.

[Evolutionize]

Marathoners FTW.
Though gonna have to find something new once Nike stops producing them :(

[LoganPride93]

Adidas Adios. Greatest minimalist shoe Ive ever trained in. Plus Haile G wears them.

[glacier freeze]

nike lunar racers, mizuno wave universe 3

used to be a 21XX, then kayano, then structure triax, then equalon, finally lunar racers and universes

[Chonka10]

Streak 2's for tempos or track work, Hyperspeeds for everything else, although they're starting to fall apart.

[carlmhsxc10]

saucony rides x3 (running in one pair now, saving a brand new pair for later, and third pair just recently retired)
saucony tangent 3
saucony sinister
nike elite 4's x2 (one pair about to be retired- got both of em free for going to a nike running camp)
asics ds trainer 11's (bout 2 years old and should be retired, but still run in them pretty often cuz they are great shoes)

[AVXC09]

brooks glycerin 7
soooooo comfy

[Mighty Mouse]

saucony fastwitch
adidas mana
nike lunaracer

[scitownxc]

Marathoners FTW.
Though gonna have to find something new once Nike stops producing them :(

do you know when they are planning on discontinuing them? I just bought a pair last week and i love them. 70 bucks on running warehouse not bad.

[OnePoint]

Asics Gel Nimbus

occasionally I throw on a pair of flats for a workout...it rotates between streak xcs, asics hyperspeed 3s, and nike katana racers...

this is also the first summer i've done significant barefoot work

[Chonka10]

do you know when they are planning on discontinuing them? I just bought a pair last week and i love them. 70 bucks on running warehouse not bad.

The Streak 3 that comes out in December 09 replaces them, get those? They look pretty similar except for a different upper.

[HINKLO]

I'm currently in Lunartrainers and I throw on some Brooks T5s for speedier workouts.

[oof47]

lol And you did this after you got the shoes why? I like 'em a lot...nice and cushioned, a lot of cushion actually. Helped my shins out since I was running in 2yr old trainers for the previous 7 weeks. I'll probably try to use these until my shins hurt again, so I'm hoping they last me at least until the end of the year. Nice to have some protection for your feet but still decently light...they are a bit high off the ground though.

Overall I'd definitely say they were a good purchase.

lol i know i probably should of asked before i got them but idc cause i really like them except for the color, im trying to get them really dirty so they dont stick out so much

[FireontheTrack11]

I've been on countless spike and shoe threads in my time (albiet limited, and understandably so, in the eyes of some dyestatters), but I've always had one question in relation to shoes that I thought might find an answer here. lol if you'd like, but, what does OG mean in reference to a shoe or spike?
Obviously in relation to gangsters, well, that one I know. And every time I see "OG Harambee", or something like that, I can't help laugh and think "Original Gangster". But I've finally mustered the courage and decided to solve this issue. What's up with the OG appending?

I guess this is also a good time to ask while I put off my summer reading.

[k-nat213]

It did originally mean original gangster but people have pretty much just started using it for just "original".

[runasaurus]

It did originally mean original gangster but people have pretty much just started using it for just "original".

is it just "original"? I always thought "older generation"...

[k-nat213]

I saw someone post this same question a bit ago and the response they got was "original"

edit: why was this question even asked here lol

[FireontheTrack11]

I saw someone post this same question a bit ago and the response they got was "original"

edit: why was this question even asked here lol

Couldn't find a better thread, although I didn't search for long. I had seen it used on this thread.

[fastrunner12]

Brooks Defyance 2 / Mizuno Wave Idaten (flats) / barefoot

http://www.holabirdsports.com/products/Saucony-Grid-Sinister-Men-043241.jpg

Just got these to replace the Defyances. Finally in minimalist-type shoes full time.

[gcrunner]

http://www.holabirdsports.com/products/Saucony-Grid-Sinister-Men-043241.jpg

Just got these to replace the Defyances. Finally in minimalist-type shoes full time.

good luck w/ the sinisters, they gave me a boat load of blisters near my achilles so make sure u wear high socks or maybe it's just me....

[Jekyllman]

Adizero CS (7 oz)

http://www.fleetfeethouston.com/images/products/detail/adizeroCS_olympicrings.1.jpg


Lunar Racer (green 5.5 oz)

http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/cw3/assets/product_full/00401600_main_m.jpg





Edit: Adiprene + >> Lunar foam

[fastrunner12]

Edit: Adiprene + >> Lunar foam

QFE, Lunar foam is a little too soft and unresponsive, even if it is really light.

[coolness]

asics 2140s for normal training runs
started with 2110s as a sophomore in high school stayed with the shoe ever since. I've only had 1 serious injury in them and it was definitely more my fault than the shoes haha
alternate between saucony kilkenny flats and adidas adizeros for workouts

[mtownxc07]

just got my free trainers and racers from school for the upcoming season!

trainers: saucony progrid guide 2

http://images.sportsshoes.com/product/S/SAU672/SAU672_400_1.jpg

very comfortable shoe. never had saucony trainers before but im definitely a fan now.

racers/spikes: nike zoom waffle xc vll

http://images.sportsshoes.com/product/N/NIK3993A/NIK3993A_400_1.jpg

except mine are black in the front and fade to white with the nike swoosh and laces being a bright orange

very nice spike. they're flexible and the mesh allows my feet to get air to them and they are very lightweight. usually i wont wear nike spikes during xc and will instead go with killkenny's but i really liked these

[trackgirlie4eva]

Rotate 2 pairs of Nike zoom haywards
pair of skylons
am runs use the old zoom milers (kenyuh)
Use katana racers and streaks for workouts

just bought a pair of newtons haven't ran in them yet.

[DannyBroChill]

I've been switching between Adizero Aces and Nike Frees. Prior to them I used LunarTrainers which I found alright

[bobdaily123]

How do the new streaks compare to marathoners, I think that i want to get the new streaks to train in, but I'm afraid that it will be to minimalist. right now I haven't had any problems with the marathoners, but I don't want to get hurt midseason. I have been running mainly on the road, but i will be doing more trail running and such. Also how does the toebox feel in the streaks, is it narrow or wide?

Is their anything else would you recommend that are maybe in between the streaks and the marathoners?

thanks

[Chonka10]

How do the new streaks compare to marathoners, I think that i want to get the new streaks to train in, but I'm afraid that it will be to minimalist. right now I haven't had any problems with the marathoners, but I don't want to get hurt midseason. I have been running mainly on the road, but i will be doing more trail running and such. Also how does the toebox feel in the streaks, is it narrow or wide?

Is their anything else would you recommend that are maybe in between the streaks and the marathoners?

thanks

Streaks are a lot wider, fit like the Matumbo imo, whereas the Marathoner is much narrower. Streaks have a lot less cushioning than the Marathoners, obviously (natural/artificial surface racing shoe vs. long distance road racing shoe). If you're going to run on trails a lot, I would do easy runs on the trails with the Streaks, as well as any sort of speedwork/tempos, etc, and use Marathoners for everything else.

Actually, a pretty good option would be the adizero Manas. They both have a little bit of stability and weigh about the same (manas are a little bit lighter). Look into that one too, probably more so than the Streaks

[Father Russia]

neat article for the people interested in minimalism.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2009/aug/07/barefoot-running-boulder-five-finger-shoes/