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Zat0pek
10-02-2009, 09:10 AM
This is so absurd on so many levels, I don't even know where to start. The number should be closer to 10%. Nearly everybody should have at least SOME skin in the game, even if only a token amount.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm?postversion=2009093012


47% will pay no federal income tax

An increasing number of households end up owing nothing in major federal taxes, but the situation may not be sustainable over the long run.

By Jeanne Sahadi, CNNMoney.com senior writer
September 30, 2009: 12:55 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Most people think they pay too much to Uncle Sam, but for some people it simply is not true.

In 2009, roughly 47% of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax, according to estimates by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.
Some in that group will even get additional money from the government because they qualify for refundable tax breaks.

The ranks of those whose major federal tax burdens net out at zero -- or less -- is on the rise. The center's original 2009 estimate was 38%. That was before enactment in February of the $787 billion economic recovery package, which included a host of new or expanded tax breaks.

The issue doesn't get a lot of attention even as lawmakers debate how to pay for policy initiatives like health reform, whether to extend the Bush tax cuts and how to reduce the deficit.

The vast majority of households making up to $30,000 fall into the category, as do nearly half of all households making between $30,000 and $40,000.

As you move up the income scale the percentages drop.

Nearly 22% of those making between $50,000 and $75,000 end up with no federal income tax liability or negative liability as do 9% of households with incomes between $75,000 and $100,000.

Of course, income taxes don't tell the whole story. Workers are also subject to payroll taxes, which support Social Security and Medicare.
When considering federal income taxes in combination with payroll taxes, the percent of households with a net liability of zero or less is estimated to be 24% this year, according to the Tax Policy Center's estimates.

A key reason why there is a zero-liability group at all is because the U.S. tax system is progressive. Those who bring in more money pay more than those lower down the income scale to support government functions such as national defense and social safety nets like Medicaid for those in need.

That progressivity can be dialed up or down.

"Some think it's too progressive. Some don't think it's progressive enough," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the center.

President Obama falls into the latter camp. He has proposed increasing the income tax burden on families making more than $250,000 and individuals making more than $200,000, while offering new measures to reduce the tax bite for most Americans making less.

One of Obama's proposals is to extend the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts for everyone except high-income tax filers, which was the group that derived the most benefit from those cuts.

As a result, under Obama's budget, he would keep the ranks of the non-payers higher than they would otherwise be.

Why the tax-free matter

The question of who pays and who doesn't is not a trivial matter. But Washington policymakers are not dealing with it in an explicit way.
And that's a problem, given the country's fiscal outlook.

If asked to vote up or down on whether they are comfortable with such a large group of voters contributing no federal income tax or payroll tax revenue, the majority may well decide it is appropriate given the means of the households involved. Or they may decide that it's not.

Either way, that decision should inform the debate about the many costly policies and deficit-reduction strategies that lawmakers will be grappling with for years to come.

"As the number [of nonpayers] becomes larger, we have to question whether we'll make good decisions about how to allocate resources," economist George Zodrow, a professor at Rice University. "Most people don't understand how skewed the tax distribution is."

Experts say that to pay for all the things on the country's growing tab, the money can't just come from a shrunken pool of taxpayers.

"Over the long run, you'll have to have a broader base," Zodrow said.

homeless
10-02-2009, 08:13 PM
Completely absurd

Glenn Fairman
10-03-2009, 01:35 AM
"Those who rob Peter to pay Paul will always have the hearty assent of Paul"

The Dan
10-03-2009, 01:54 PM
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

Not that I'm calling Obama or the US government socialist, but this applies to any situation in which you're spending other people's money.

Zat0pek
10-04-2009, 08:56 AM
And one more time:

The tax laws explained in simple logic. But many will still never understand.

Because it is tax season. . . Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Because you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33.

But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

homeless
10-04-2009, 09:18 AM
Good analogy/story, but what is the likelihood of rich people not making money any more or being able to head overseas and have the same success.

The individuals who are contributing to most of the tax base at the top are not the ones owning the corporations, but those running them, no? There will not be a mass exodus.

I get it, still a very apt analogy.

47% is quite disturbing. The first "few men" I get...the next few should indeed be paying.

KenA55
10-04-2009, 01:33 PM
Bastiat, on properly identifying legalized plunder:

"But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime."

king99
10-09-2009, 12:08 PM
I MUST be missing something.

It does NOT say no one pays taxes, I thought it meant people did not owe more than what they paid in during the year. In Fed Taxes

That should be the way it normally is..no one should have excessive tax liabilities if they pay their fair share of pay roll taxes.

Is this not what this says, what is the outrage for.

You pay taxes during the year, then if you did it right you should not owe any or get a refund..this is 101, I think you rread this wrong, but it must be me.

They end up OWING nothing..that is excatly what SHOULD happen if you paid your proper tax via exemptions etc during your year, No?

Zat0pek
10-09-2009, 12:11 PM
I MUST be missing something.

It does NOT say no one pays taxes, I thought it meant people did not owe more than what they paid in during the year. In Fed Taxes

That should be the way it normally is..no one should have excessive tax liabilities if they pay their fair share of pay roll taxes.

Is this not what this says, what is the outrage for.

Incorrect. If they paid in, they got it all back. They paid no federal income taxes. Zero. 53% of the household in this country carry the lug. The rest skate.

king99
10-09-2009, 12:13 PM
I am in one of those categories, let's say.

I SHOULD NOT have any furher tax liabilities if I paid right during my work year.

I do not get the whole issue here.

Why should folks OWE more than what they paid in, only half do, what is the friggin problem.

Those 53% did NOT pay enough in during the year that is their problem.

Those that did , should not owe anything, makes perfect sense to me.

king99
10-09-2009, 12:16 PM
I do not read it that way at all.

It says they owe nothing more, not that all have refunds.


It says HAD NO Other Liability>...

An increasing number of households end up owing nothing in major federal taxes, but the situation may not be sustainable over the long run.


OWING..OWING...they paid during the year the would OWE NOTHING more..I do not get it, sorry.

Zat0pek
10-09-2009, 12:21 PM
I do not read it that way at all.

It says they owe nothing more, not that all have refunds.


It says HAD NO Other Liability>...

An increasing number of households end up owing nothing in major federal taxes, but the situation may not be sustainable over the long run.


OWING..OWING...they paid during the year the would OWE NOTHING more..I do not get it, sorry.

In this case, owe means owe, period. Not they there were underwithheld and "owed" additional on April 15, in which case they owed what they paid in during the year plus a little extra.

Most actual taxpayers have no idea how many people in this country don't pay a nickel in federal income taxes. It is completely indefensible.

king99
10-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Okay, if you say so.

I still did not read it that way, but you are smater than I.

Really? 50 % of all people wind
up PAYING nothing?

That does not seem fair to me.

Zat0pek
10-09-2009, 01:11 PM
Really? 50 % of all people wind
up PAYING nothing?

That does not seem fair to me.

That's the whole point.

yifter
10-09-2009, 02:27 PM
I get the symbolism, but, as you hammered me with back in the spring, like the corporate jets of the auto industry, the masses paying taxes is meaningless when it comes to effectively raising revenue. Sure it's a nice symbol, as cutting the jets for the car guys was, but in the scheme of things it's a drop in the ocean. Just as Obama's cutting 100B from the budget, great, but it's meaningless when you look at the actual data.

And most do pay taxes, just not federal income taxes.

And "fairness" my goodness, like people on here couldn't debate that forever.:)

Zat0pek
10-09-2009, 02:40 PM
I get the symbolism, but, as you hammered me with back in the spring, like the corporate jets of the auto industry, the masses paying taxes is meaningless when it comes to effectively raising revenue. Sure it's a nice symbol, as cutting the jets for the car guys was, but in the scheme of things it's a drop in the ocean. Just as Obama's cutting 100B from the budget, great, but it's meaningless when you look at the actual data.

And most do pay taxes, just not federal income taxes.

And "fairness" my goodness, like people on here couldn't debate that forever.:)

I understand your point and it's a valid one.

But I think there's a difference here. One's mindset changes when something (like government services) are simply handed to you. You need some skin in the game to be fully engaged and have something at stake. People make different decisions when they have some skin in the game versus when they don't.

I agree that the actual dollars probably don't add up to a lot. But I think the mindset of having a stake in the system as a taxpayer is very important, and that's lost when you're not a contributor.

Glenn Fairman
10-09-2009, 09:53 PM
tax payers vs. tax consumers.

Glenn Fairman
10-09-2009, 10:00 PM
tax payers vs. tax consumers. Citizens vs. subjects.
Good way to prime the pump for civil conflict.
There's a long train a coming friends.

Sebrle
10-10-2009, 12:42 PM
The poor shouldn't pay income tax, income tax was a dumb idea by another Nobel Peace laureate when the true progressive target should be redistrubiting WEALTH, not punishing labor.

The poor get taxed everytime they turn around and this has increased under Obama. The problem is we have gotten into a system of I'm a victim send me a check/70,000 page tax code versus top 20% redistributes X amount of their wealth to the bottom 20%.