Meb breaks Hall's 20K AR en route to 1:01:00 Half Marathon

[Zat0pek]

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/display_article.php?id=37007

This is huge for Meb, and his 1:01:00 is #3 on the all-time U.S. list behind only Hall and Curp.

This is surprisingly good news. Meb hadn't done much recently due to injuries and his age seems to have him on the backside of his career. But he's still an Oly marathon medalist and this could mean great things for him in NY.

Excellent, excellent run by a tough veteren in a year when the rookies like Fernandez, Derrick, Rupp, Manzano, and Lomong and in-their-prime guys like Ritz, Teg and Symmonds were re-writing ARs and U.S. lists.

[Stickyrunner01]

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/display_article.php?id=37007

This is huge for Meb, and his 1:01:00 is #3 on the all-time U.S. list behind only Hall and Curp.

This is surprisingly good news. Meb hadn't done much recently due to injuries and his age seems to have him on the backside of his career. But he's still an Oly marathon medalist and this could mean great things for him in NY.

Excellent, excellent run by a tough veteren in a year when the rookies like Fernandez, Derrick, Rupp, Manzano, and Lomong and in-their-prime guys like Ritz, Teg and Symmonds were re-writing ARs and U.S. lists.

Something isn't lining up...

Hall
20K - 57:54
21K - 59:43

--- Meaning he ran his last K in 1:49??

edit..

Meb
20K - 57:52
21K - 1:01:00

--- Meaning Meb ran his last K in 3:08??

Meb's splits seem realistic, someone got Hall's wrong, or he's running the wrong event!!!!!

2nd edit
I know Hall ran his 20K and his half records on different days, but I am still positive that his half en-route was faster than 57:52

[Zat0pek]

Something isn't lining up...

Hall
20K - 57:54
21K - 59:43

--- Meaning he ran his last K in 1:49??

edit..

Meb
20K - 57:52
21K - 1:01:00

--- Meaning Meb ran his last K in 3:08??

Meb's splits seem realistic, someone got Hall's wrong, or he's running the wrong event!!!!!

2nd edit
I know Hall ran his 20K and his half records on different days, but I am still positive that his half en-route was faster than 57:52

Entirely possible, but Hall's half may not have been certified through 20K for record purposes, especially since Hall had just set the 20K record.

No matter what, Meb running a PR 1:01:00 half at his age and coming off a disappointing stretch of injuries is big news, and I'm surprised this isn't getting more buzz. Meb may be ready to really roll in NY.

[yifter]

Meb is quietly having a career year.

3 US titles (XC, 1/2, 7 miler). 4 PRs (full, halfx2, 7 miler, actually 5 if you count his 20k en route). 1 AR (although most know it's inferior to whatever Hall was in Houston).

Houston didn't have any en route splits up, other wise Hall might have had 15k, 10mile, 20k, 1/2 ARs all in one race.

And a pic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/HoustonMeb.jpg

[conman3825]

not to mention the olympic medal in the 04 marathon

[king99]

At least Meb races once in a while if not a good amount, Hall never does, and is my biggest by far criticism of him , he barely competes in the sport, all of his efforts should be good.

Someone please post Ryan Hall last two years results and schedule.

[dont-be-weak]

not to mention the olympic medal in the 04 marathon

Yeah, he totally won that medal this year.

[Equinox2100]

At least Meb races once in a while if not a good amount, Hall never does, and is my biggest by far criticism of him , he barely competes in the sport, all of his efforts should be good.

Someone please post Ryan Hall last two years results and schedule.

-2007 - U.S. Half Marathon Record Holder (59:43). Aramco Houston Half Marathon in Houston, Texas.
-2007 - 2:08:24 at the London Marathon in London, United Kingdom.
-2007 - 1st Place, 2008 U.S. Olympic Team Trials Marathon (2:09:02) in New York City, United States
-2008 - 5th Place. 2008 Flora London Marathon (2:06:17) in London, United Kingdom
-2008 - 10th Place. 2008 Marathon - Summer Olympics (2:12:33) in Beijing, China
-2009 - 1st Place. 2009 15K - Publix Super Markets Gasparilla Distance Classics Race (43:26) in Tampa Bay, United States
-2009 - 3rd Place. 2009 Boston Marathon (2:09:40) in Boston, United States
-2009 - 3rd Place. 2009 NYC Half-Marathon (1:02:35) in New York City, United States
-2009 - 1st Place. 2009 ING Philadelphia Distance Run Half-Marathon (1:01:52) in Philadelphia, United States

[Scotty]

At least Meb races once in a while if not a good amount, Hall never does, and is my biggest by far criticism of him , he barely competes in the sport, all of his efforts should be good.

Someone please post Ryan Hall last two years results and schedule.

The guy has run 59:42 and 2:06:16

I don't care how rarely he runs, with those PRs. ;)

[king99]

Scotty, whatever, I know you don;t care. The guy is barely a participant, you had better run more than well, if you race a total of 9 times in 3 years.

You are okay with it, I am not, I have been clear for years on this.

Quite frankly Everyone would run well if they only ran 3 times a friggin year, everyone, if they only pointed to that.

That is not the sport , never had been never will be, only Hall gets a pass on this stuff. ONLY him. everyone else has always been criticized for racing too much or too little , if they ever have an off day.


Hall should run GREAT every time out, he trains for 50 weeks a year races 2-3 times. He has NO seasons to manage at all. NONE.

The 2:06.16 was on a speedway course and he was no where when it counted at Olympics, in one of his years he only ran TWICE.

I am done, I get too frustrated with Hall who should be doing or running something else during his years for the dough he gets.

It IS MY porblem, no one elses, nor do I expect anyone to agree.

I am done on this.

[txboi800]

Scotty, whatever, I know you don;t care. The guy is barely a participant, you had better run more than well, if you race a total of 9 times in 3 years.

You are okay with it, I am not, I have been clear for years on this.

Quite frankly Everyone would run well if they only ran 3 times a friggin year, everyone, if they only pointed to that.

That is not the sport , never had been never will be, only Hall gets a pass on this stuff. ONLY him. everyone else has always been criticized for racing too much or too little , if they ever have an off day.


Hall should run GREAT every time out, he trains for 50 weeks a year races 2-3 times. He has NO seasons to manage at all. NONE.

The 2:06.16 was on a speedway course and he was no where when it counted at Olympics, in one of his years he only ran TWICE.

I am done, I get too frustrated with Hall who should be doing or running something else during his years for the dough he gets.

It IS MY porblem, no one elses, nor do I expect anyone to agree.

I am done on this.
Every time you post my estimate of your intelligence drops a little. There are several BLATANTLY obvious reasons for his racing schedule. First, consider his racing year by year.

2007 - transitioning from a track guy to a marathoner. LOTS of very hard work to be done here, I wouldn't want to be busting my ass in a ton of races either when I'm moving up like that.

2008 - Olympic year. I'd say few intelligent guys would be racing more than 3 times anyway.

2009 - he'll get in a solid 5 races.

Second, even you are not dumb enough to think that marathoners race as much as track guys? It's counterproductive. It's like me going out and doing a 10k road race in the middle of my summer base. I'm not going to be in good enough specific shape to have that great of a performance anyway, and it's going to wear me out for the more important work I've got coming down the road. Of course you want to have some benchmark type races later in your training cycle, and Hall does that just like everyone else.

And finally the mere fact that he makes bank from Asics means he doesn't HAVE to race as much. A lot of the african guys race a ton of times because they really need/want the money. They figure they can run the road race circuit for 5 years or whatever and cram in as many races as they can to up their bottom line when they retire. Hall has a good enough sponsorship to live comfortably, so he (very rightly) focuses on a spring and fall marathon every year, to maximize his performance (and his paycheck on those days). I'd say Hall is the marathon version of Schumacher's group. These guys race less than others because they have the fortitude to actually focus ALL their energy on the place that it counts the most.

[yifter]

Every time you post my estimate of your intelligence drops a little.

After this brilliant opener I'm sure he's going to be very receptive to whatever else you have to contribute.

Also that is not an exhaustive "list" of hall's races.

[KevinM]

I am done on this.

Yeah, that's likely. ;)

I get why you want him to run more, but I certainly don't get the "if you race less you should run faster” idea. I actually think everyone has a sweet spot in terms of frequency of racing that allows them to train effectively and still hone competition skills. If racing 3 times a year allows him to run his fastest, then I certainly don’t blame him for doing so, but I agree it’s not the best thing for the sport. I tend to think his focus races might benefit from more frequent racing, but that’s obviously a complete armchair analysis.

To take this a bit further, the "management of seasons" peak could be a bit tougher with a lower racing schedule. With only training benchmarks to use as indicators of fitness, I'd think timing a peak would involve a bit more guesswork than with race results to show progression.

[txboi800]

After this brilliant opener I'm sure he's going to be very receptive to whatever else you have to contribute.
Yep lol but whatevs.
Yeah, that's likely. ;)

I get why you want him to run more, but I certainly don't get the "if you race less you should run faster” idea. I actually think everyone has a sweet spot in terms of frequency of racing that allows them to train effectively and still hone competition skills. If racing 3 times a year allows him to run his fastest, then I certainly don’t blame him for doing so, but I agree it’s not the best thing for the sport. I tend to think his focus races might benefit from more frequent racing, but that’s obviously a complete armchair analysis.

To take this a bit further, the "management of seasons" peak could be a bit tougher with a lower racing schedule. With only training benchmarks to use as indicators of fitness, I'd think timing a peak would involve a bit more guesswork than with race results to show progression.
For a lot of guys it would be guesswork, but personally I think Mahon is smart enough to do it once he's familiar with his athlete.

But yes your point is completely true.

[Zat0pek]

Racing frequency is an interesting subject.

On one hand, I agree with King. Hall and others (especially Teg) don't race as much as I think they "should." The frequency of races has very clearly dropped off and there are some things that are best developed by racing (both physically and mentally).

But on the other hand. . .

Hall is clearly now a pure marathoner. He's dropped down a little and raced quite a bit more this year than the two years previous. Marathoners clearly race less than guys in any other event, especially now. I think the number of races from Hall lines up pretty close to what we see in other marathoners these days; how many races has Geb run over the same period of time?

I have a bigger problem with the number of races run by guys like Teg and Solinsky than I do with Hall. I don't think Hall "gets a pass" any more than any other marathoner.

What's interesting to me is that guys today are in a much different position financially and it affects the number of races. Steve Scott is very blunt about the fact that he raced as much as he did because he HAD to earn a living. He also says that if it hadn't been for the need for cash, he would have raced less, been more focused and believes he would have both run faster and performed better in championships (Olys and WCs). Top guys today aren't as dependent on appearance money; their contracts provide them enough that they can be more choosey.

I was very, very hard on Culpepper back in the day before he turned to the marathon not only because he had a very light racing schedule, but because he would only travel outside the U.S. to race for Olys or WCs. He not only rarely raced, when he did it was often at places like the Cowtown Classic or something.

Guys like Teg and Hall don't race much, but when they do they tee it up against the best on the planet.

I'm not sure what the "optimum" number of races is, but seeing as how the trend for everybody in all distances is to race less than they did 25 years ago suggests to me that guys in the past were racing as much as they did out of financial necessity, not for reasons of the their development. In other words, what we are comparing them to was actually an over-racing in the past.

That said, has the pendulum now swung too far the other way? I'm not sure what the answer is there.

In general, though, I think guys need to race more when they're younger (HS/college) to learn "how" to race, but less often and higher quality when they are pros.

[king99]

Zat how you could have been such a Culpepper basher and man you were and not be behind me 100% on this one issue.

Hall races way less than he did.


Hall has not dropped "down" this year in my mind he ran two marathons and two races no one else really runs BUT marathoners ..that is not the same to me as "dropping down" truely and running 10K's or 5's?

[SwissMountainRunner]

Hall has not dropped "down" this year in my mind he ran two marathons and two races no one else really runs BUT marathoners ..that is not the same to me as "dropping down" truely and running 10K's or 5's?

How old is Hall? I'm in the camp of more racing. For a marathoner, not a whole lot more, but def more than Hall does. Geb does do more races over the year comparatively, mostly in Europe. And he was in the Oly 10KM last year. To me it seems the overly methodic/compulsive trainers who focus so much on 2 races a year end up getting out-kicked in the last few Ks by the "next" African.

If anyone knows Victor Rothlin from Switzerland, who I believe is the 2nd fastest non-African ever in the Marathon, he usually does a bunch of local Swiss races. Anything from an 8KM city run against the local Africans and other top Swiss, to 15KM hilly trail races, also against the local Africans. Occasionally he wins, but even if he doesn't, he's getting great experience kicking against guys who if it's an all-out effort, he's faster, but if it turns tactical it's up in the air. And he's shown he's a good kicker in a marathon now.

[Zat0pek]

Zat how you could have been such a Culpepper basher and man you were and not be behind me 100% on this one issue.

Hall races way less than he did.

The answer was in my post:

I was very, very hard on Culpepper back in the day before he turned to the marathon not only because he had a very light racing schedule, but because he would only travel outside the U.S. to race for Olys or WCs. He not only rarely raced, when he did it was often at places like the Cowtown Classic or something.

Guys like Teg and Hall don't race much, but when they do they tee it up against the best on the planet.


I was hard on Culpepper BEFORE he moved to the marathon. The problem I had with Culp in his pre-marathon days is that not only did he run very few races, he also wouldn't race the best possible competition. He flat wouldn't leave the U.S. to race except for the Olys or WCs.

Teg and Solinsky, on the other hand, relish racing guys like Bekele in Europe. They may not race any more frequently, but the races they do run are against the best. Culpepper would never challenge himself like that before he moved up to the marathon.

I said when he moved up that it suited him, and I dropped the criticism because it no longer applied when he moved to the marathon.

[king99]

Yeah but Hall never ran against anyone either under a marathon. not with any sense of urgency.


He ran one meaningful 5 K ever, really and was atrocious at U.S. 10K Track Nats when he should have run 27:40's in his sleep with his fitness.

Bottom line he gets a pass and runs an avg of less than 3.5 events per year for last 3 full years.

You are right and so was TB, it is a choice that works, I said ten times I HAVE the problem with it, no one else has to.

[Zat0pek]

Yeah but Hall never ran against anyone either under a marathon. not with any sense of urgency.

That's like saying "Wariner never ran against anyone either at the 100, not with any sense of urgency."

As I've said before, the days of guys being all-around distance runners (5,000/10,000/cross/roads/marathon, like Virgin, Salazar, Lopes, etc) that maximize their potential at the marathon are O-V-E-R. The marathon is very much a specialized event now.

And I can't believe you brought up the Nats 10,000, just a couple of months after he ran London. Hall has said point blank that with the way he trains for the marathon, he can't run a good 10,000 off of that training so he won't run them any more unless he moves away from the marathon for a while for some reason. Ditto races in college, which is ancient history for him now.

He's clearly found the event he's best suited for and the approach that gets the best result for that event.

FWIW, I believe that if Hall pulled a Ritz and decided to drop back down for a while, we'd see similar dramatic results like we have with Ritz this summer after moving down (not saying Hall could run 12:56, just that I think he'd drop some bombs on the track). But he's decided it's the marathon for him, and it's very hard to argue against that decision based on his results. Ritz did not get the same results at the marathon (2:10 PR, slower than Hall's slowest marathon), but has publicly said that his move down is temporary until he goes back to the marathon.

[KevinM]

(2:10 PR, slower than Hall's slowest marathon),

Don't forget Beijing...

[king99]

Like I said, fine, and I never read that Hall excuse for his 10K debacle.

many have been able to ramp back up for some kind of effort TWO MONTHS after a marathon I am sure.

So be it, you disagree, like I said, I am okay being alone in this boat!!

The rest of it is BS though, Hall was a 5K runner !! Until he moved up, he never went to Europe, not in jis junior or senior years or after college that I know of.


he could not run effective 1500';s despite a 3:42 HS career effort and 1:51 scratch.So he moved up to 5K.

he moved to 5K finally ran 13:16 I believe. never ran ONE effective 10K , so he ran 3:42 in HS and 2:06.16, quite the range for a guy who could never see fit to run anything major on a track.

To me it was always puzzling, does not have to be to anyone else. Like I have said NOW 11 times.:D

[king99]

Zat, Ritz beat Hall head to head on their biggest day yet when both were in for the medals...no?

In fact he almost always did.

HS: FL's

College: NC's Cross twice or more

Olympics, which to me are a little bigger title wise than a NY top whatever.

Like I said, a revamped Ritz shows more tools as a runner and will surely run better someday than 2:10 you would even have to agree with that.

[Zat0pek]

Don't forget Beijing...

Oops, right.

[KevinM]

King - what's your point here? Seems like you have WAY too much sand in your swimsuit over Hall. You claim you just would like to see him race more frequently, but you seem to beat him up over anything and everything. Why do you treat the fact that Hall has not raced well in non-marathons as some sort of character flaw?

I also think you're putting too much stock in Beijing as a way to judge the relative marathon success of Hall and Ritz -- it's really, really hard to deny that Hall's career as a marathoner has been more succesful thus far. A third at Boston, a non-KK AR and top 10 in one of the deepest fields ever, and a stunning romp over Ritz and others in Central Park two Novembers ago all trump a :34 loss in no-man's land in Beijing when comparing their marathon careers as a whole.

I am quite sure Hall would like to be able to come off of marathons and run faster in shorter events, whether the reason is mental or physical. However, you'd have to agree that to change the way he preps for his primary event (and possibly run slower in it) in order to do so seems like it would be a mistake.

[king99]

No No No. missing my point.

My point only was, that even when out of the marathon, it was never a big schedule.


You are right it is my problem. I never quite got the whole thing. I thought he moved out of every event at the first sign of non success, and certainly did find his niche.

Now he goes three times a year, fine for all I guess.

[Zat0pek]

Now he goes three times a year, fine for all I guess.

At least five races this year. The 3.5/year average includes 2008 and Beijing. As you may recall, he got some grief for even running London the spring before Beijing, which would have meant just one race in 2008, that being Beijing.

Point is, all marathoners lighten their racing load in Olympic years, so that pulls the average down.

[yifter]

Olympics, which to me are a little bigger title wise than a NY top whatever.

Like I said, a revamped Ritz shows more tools as a runner and will surely run better someday than 2:10 you would even have to agree with that.

The olympics thing is a bit much. Yes, they never put themselves in position to medal. However, Dr. Martin, their coaches, and most running experts told them 2:11-2:12 would medal. They were all very wrong. However, I don't ever see Ritz running 2:07:16, let alone in Beijing type conditions, which is what Gharib ran for silver; nevermind Wanjiru's mind boggling 2:06:32.

I do think Ritz will better his 2:10:00 marathon PR. However I don't ever see him running a time equal to what some, McMillan's for example, calculators equate his 5k to, 2:06:05. To me it seems Ritz is much better equipped for 2mile-1/2. He has a great engine but the downside is he burns up a lot of fuel. In every one of his marathons he's had cramping or simply run out of juice. That will be a significant issue to figure out if he ever wants to be a medal threat. I also worry about his ability to put together some significant healthy training, 12-18 months. Lastly, I am not completely sold on Alberto Salazar as the answer to the marathon. He's done some okay to good stuff, but in my view, his athletes, even his "marathon ones," found much greater success, or better PRs, in other events.

Hall seems to have a pretty fragile psyche, that is not a slam on the guy, he just has gotten in his head that the track seems "so long," and that he can't be competitive in a build up. That's fine, he seems to have found what works for him. I do agree that, seemingly, he is leaving a lot of serious PRs (AR type efforts) out there, not many 1:51 scratch HS and 2:06low marathoners out there with his marks in between.


edit: people are missing some of Hall's races, his wiki and usatf bio do not provide exhaustive lists, off the top of my head he ran US XC in '08, probably some others out there as well

[king99]

Fair enough, I would say this Webb has been trashed 50 million times more, as an example, than me pointing out every 3 months that Hall doesn;t race enough for my liking, as his only flaw?!! :D

Who cares what I think, I concede.

[Scotty]

Zat, Ritz beat Hall head to head on their biggest day yet when both were in for the medals...no?

In fact he almost always did.

HS: FL's

College: NC's Cross twice or more

Olympics, which to me are a little bigger title wise than a NY top whatever.

Like I said, a revamped Ritz shows more tools as a runner and will surely run better someday than 2:10 you would even have to agree with that.

Kinger, you have the right to your opinion on Hall, but he is FAR AND AWAY, our best Marathoner. 59:43 (celebrating the last 150m) and 2:06:16 are killer PRs. Ritz (2:10:00) is a notch below, and there is no debate.

You also forget to mention Hall burying Ritz at US Sr Nat XC a few yrs ago. Only fair to mention that.:)

[Sarcasm Detector]

Yeah, he totally won that medal this year.

I don't mean to interrupt the disputing, but why has nobody corrected dont-be-weak?

Meb did NOT win that medal this year... he won it in 2004. Therefore, it has no bearing on the career year he is having.

[txboi800]

Fair enough, I would say this Webb has been trashed 50 million times more, as an example, than me pointing out every 3 months that Hall doesn;t race enough for my liking, as his only flaw?!! :D

Who cares what I think, I concede.
Throwing your opinion into a thread is asking to have it discussed. No one besides me has even been a douche about it; if you don't want to have it talked about then don't mention it.

[king99]

OH well then be that douche

[Brumund-Smith]

Kinger, you have the right to your opinion on Hall, but he is FAR AND AWAY, our best Marathoner. 59:43 (celebrating the last 150m) and 2:06:16 are killer PRs. Ritz (2:10:00) is a notch below, and there is no debate.

You also forget to mention Hall burying Ritz at US Sr Nat XC a few yrs ago. Only fair to mention that.:)

Yeah, because Hall beat Ritz at the Olympics, right? Oh wait.

Hall might be a better marathon runner than Ritz, but Ritz is a way better athlete overall. More accomplished in high school, more accomplished in college, more accomplished in PRs, more accomplished on the circuit, more accomplished in the championship races.

The Class of 2001 is extremely clear-cut: Webb, then Ritz, then Hall.

[fourjz]

Whether his race schedule or workload is enough I can't say.But marketing wise it's a mistake.We hardly ever see this guy to the point we are wondering does he still run in the sport.

[Zat0pek]

Hall might be a better marathon runner than Ritz, but Ritz is a way better athlete overall. More accomplished in high school, more accomplished in college, more accomplished in PRs, more accomplished on the circuit, more accomplished in the championship races.

The Class of 2001 is extremely clear-cut: Webb, then Ritz, then Hall.

Not on PRs. 59:42 and 2:06 are OUT THERE on the all time lists, and not just the "non-African" lists. Ritz's best mark is 12:56. 12:56 is monster, but Hall has two marks that are essentially equivalent to 12:56 (59:42 and 2:06). Hall is TWO MINUTES faster than Ritz at the half, and nearly FOUR MINUTES faster at the marathon. You have to compare them in events they've BOTH competed in during their prime. Hall leap-frogged over the 5 and 10 and never looked back. Ritz was a marathoner the last two years just like Hall.

In addition to a HUGE gap in marathon PRs, Hall crushed Ritz at the Trials and on not Hall's best day in Beijing, Ritz barely got him. The are 1-1 at the marathon, but the average margin of victory is hugely in Hall's favor.

Ditto cross in the latter years. Ritz barely nipped Hall at NCAAs but Hall DESTROYED Ritz and everyone else at USATF cross a few years back. Again, margin of victory to Hall.

From 10,000 and down, it's all Ritz. Above 10,000, Ritz can't hold a candle to Hall, with Beijing being the lone exception that proves the rule.

[yifter]

The funny thing is, Hall HAD to move to the marathon, because he is limited as far as the track went, at every event he ever tried as a 3:42 HS guy, never approached that in college and he had to move up and out of it, 15, 5, 10 apparently,because he was non competitive.

Ritz moved too early to the marathon , all agree on that and I said it then, well before his 12:56 and 27:22 which will also be dwarfed by what he finally runs.

Hall? 13:16 ONCE 28 minutes once.

I will bet you this , when it is all done, there will be no debate as to who the better runner is/was, your Hall ONE WIN in XC ever? You categorize as DITTO CROSS in LATTER years? He beat Ritz at Cross ONE TIME EVER.
So Hall is limited on the track, and thus uncompetitive (even nationally), yet you want him to run more on the track?

Earlier you throw Hall under the bus for not running on the track more. You've just answered your own question. 13:16 is a nice mark but why spin your wheels to run that when you can run his times at the longer distances?


Yeah, because Hall beat Ritz at the Olympics, right? Oh wait.

Hall might be a better marathon runner than Ritz, but Ritz is a way better athlete overall. More accomplished in high school, more accomplished in college, more accomplished in PRs, more accomplished on the circuit, more accomplished in the championship races.

The Class of 2001 is extremely clear-cut: Webb, then Ritz, then Hall.

Glad you've settled this one for us. It's all about criteria one uses to judge them. OGs/WCs made? Ability to compete internationally? Times and PRs? Breadth of distances and mediums run?

Saying Ritz is a better athlete than Hall is like saying Culpepper is a better athlete than Khannouchi, or that Broe is a better athlete than Teg. Just because they can be more competitive at a wide variety of surfaces and distances doesn't necessarily make them better. What I'm glad to see is that all three appear to be in really good environments to maximize their running. It's also interesting to note how all three have left people/places where they had good to fantastic sucess.

[trackgirl]

Ritz did not get the same results at the marathon (2:10 PR, slower than Hall's slowest marathon), but has publicly said that his move down is temporary until he goes back to the marathon.
Ritz runs 12:56 and doesn't immediately think to himself "damn, I could be good at this if I concentrated on it"? Given his lackluster marathon PR and outstanding 5k PR, he's seriously wrong in the head to want to go back to the marathon.

[king99]

Yeah, because Hall beat Ritz at the Olympics, right? Oh wait.

Hall might be a better marathon runner than Ritz, but Ritz is a way better athlete overall. More accomplished in high school, more accomplished in college, more accomplished in PRs, more accomplished on the circuit, more accomplished in the championship races.

The Class of 2001 is extremely clear-cut: Webb, then Ritz, then Hall.

Yift, I did not say this, someone else did, I just happened to agree.

My point was that Hall never stuck with any underside event long enough to see how good he would have been at it.

His talent was unmistakeable, at 1:51 HS , 3:42 1500 only 4 at the time faster EVER in HS ,and 8:50's two mile.


Why he had to consistently move up so quick was always beyond me. that was my point. Sorry that your rant at me was mis directed.:D

[yifter]

That "rant" was directed at Brumund-Smith. I consider myself to be an intelligent person but I don't know how to do multiple quotes where each one indicates the person I'm quoting. If anyone wants to enlighten me shoot me a PM (on that note, King check your PM)

First quote was directed at you but the second one was not. Why rant at someone who has stated many a times that it's their opinion and no one else has to agree?:)

[KevinM]

I think it's clear that Hall saw that the longer he ran, the better his results were, thus prompting him to change his focus. His race at New Haven at the end of the 2006 track season, coupled with his breakthrough in Houston over 13.1 gave him the idea that perhaps he could pop a good marathon. And what do you know - 2:08:24 in his debut.


And King - using the "marathoners are guys who can't get it done on the track" rationale to (yet again) tear down Hall's remarkable efforts over that distance holds about as much water someone saying "who cares about the entire sport of track and field -- these are guys who couldn't make it in pro basketball or football".

I agree that there are plenty of world-class marathoners who wouldn't be world-class in the 10,000, just as plenty of 10,000 guys might not be world class in the marathon. They are different events, and using perhaps the most versatile runner in the history of the planet (Geb) as evidence probably isn't a fair comparison.

[Zat0pek]

Ritz runs 12:56 and doesn't immediately think to himself "damn, I could be good at this if I concentrated on it"? Given his lackluster marathon PR and outstanding 5k PR, he's seriously wrong in the head to want to go back to the marathon.

I completely agree, but that's exactly what he's said. He'll move down for a year or so, but wants the marathon to be his focus.

[king99]

fair enough Kevin, again, I did not expect many to see it my way on this.

Although even the challenging Scotty agrees the the raced schedule is a bit light!!:D But effective.

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

on not Hall's best day in Beijing, Ritz barely got him. The are 1-1 at the marathon, but the average margin of victory is hugely in Hall's favor.

Ditto cross in the latter years. Ritz barely nipped Hall at NCAAs but Hall DESTROYED Ritz and everyone else at USATF cross a few years back. Again, margin of victory to Hall.


Re: Beijing - Don't forget that Ritzenhein hobbled the last 7km after his calves blew.

Re: Waterloo, IA - Don't forget that Ritzenhein had been running for 8 wks. while Hall had something along the lines of 15 consecutive wks. over 90 mi. heading into NCAAs.

Re: Van Cortland Park - Don't forget Ritzenhein had pneumonia.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

[Scotty]

At the Marathon and Half Marathon, its extremely clear cut.

Hall is our best. Would be nice if he raced a bit more, maybe a 10k once in a while, but his long distance record speaks for itself.

[Brumund-Smith]

From 10,000 and down, it's all Ritz. Above 10,000, Ritz can't hold a candle to Hall, with Beijing being the lone exception that proves the rule.

Oh yeah, except for beating him AT THE OLYMPIC GAMES! I suppose that's just a minor detail.

One could easily make the argument that if Ritz was as "bad" as Hall at the track events, he'd run more road races and maybe be as good as Hall. The fact that Ritz is BETTER than Hall is what's holding him back (again, I'm not necessarily saying this is true, just bringing up a counter point).

Here's a fun little comparison of the two. Since we're comparing them as professional athletes, I'll leave high school and college accomplishments out of this (which, by the way, are enormously stacked in Ritz's favor).

Personal Records:
1500m: Ritz- 3:42.99, Hall- 3:42.70
3000m: Ritz- 7:39.03, Hall- ????, not faster than 7:50
2-mile: Ritz- 8:11.74, Hall-8:26.26
5000m: Ritz- 12:56.27, Hall- 13:16.03
10000m: Ritz- 27:22.28, Hall- 28:07.93
Half-Marathon: Ritz- 61:26, Hall- 59:43
Marathon: Ritz- 2:10:00, Hall- 2:06:17

Finishes at major championships:
6th, Ritz, 10K, 2009 Worlds
9th, Ritz, 10K, 2007 Worlds
9th, Ritz, Marathon, 2008 Olympics
10th, Hall, Marathon, 2008 Olympics
29th, Hall, 5K (did not make finals), 2005 Worlds
DNF, Ritz, 10K, 2004 Olympics

Spots on all-time lists (all performances):
21, Ritz, 2-mile
70, Hall, Half-Marathon
37, Hall, Marathon
117, Ritz, 5000m
255, Ritz, 1000m
267, Hall, 2-mile
659, Ritz, 3000m
867, Ritz, Half-Marathon
1131, Ritz, Marathon
1593, Hall, 5000m

They each have an American record. Hall in the rarely-run Half Marathon, and Ritz in the 5K, maybe the most popular and meaningful championship event among distance runners. If you compare percentage-wise, those time charts, etc., they come out as pretty comparable records. But I'm guessing that if you asked all the distance runners out there which record they'd rather have, 98% of them would say the 5K.

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

Spots on all-time lists (all performances):
21, Ritz, 2-mile



You should lump the 2mi in with the 3km, as they are essentially the same event. The 21st all-time is a fine run, but it is not an accurate representation of Ritzenhein's standing over 3km/2mi.

[Brumund-Smith]

You should lump the 2mi in with the 3km, as they are essentially the same event. The 21st all-time is a fine run, but it is not an accurate representation of Ritzenhein's standing over 3km/2mi.

Yeah, that's a good point, especially since I couldn't find a 3K time for Hall. Did he even run indoor track in college? He's not in the top 10 on Stanford's all-time lists in anything.

Even if you combine the two and figure out the places, Ritz is still way up on Hall. I can't believe there are people out there who think Hall is better.

[yifter]

I can't believe there are people out there who think Hall is better.

I posted this in response to #34, but looks like you missed it so I'll post it again.

It's all about criteria one uses to judge them. OGs/WCs made? Ability to compete internationally? Times and PRs? Breadth of distances and mediums run?

Saying Ritz is a better athlete than Hall is like saying Culpepper is a better athlete than Khannouchi, or that Broe is a better athlete than Teg. Just because they can be more competitive at a wide variety of surfaces and distances doesn't necessarily make them better. What I'm glad to see is that all three appear to be in really good environments to maximize their running. It's also interesting to note how all three have left people/places where they had good to fantastic success.

also
http://www.roadsmillslaps.com/RML/Ryan_Hall.html

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

Yeah, that's a good point, especially since I couldn't find a 3K time for Hall. Did he even run indoor track in college? He's not in the top 10 on Stanford's all-time lists in anything.

Even if you combine the two and figure out the places, Ritz is still way up on Hall. I can't believe there are people out there who think Hall is better.

The best 3km result I could find for Hall is a 7:56 from the 2005 indoor season. The conversion from 2mi is probably a bit faster.
While Ritzenhein may still have a better 3km than Hall, if you look up where 7:39 ranks all-time it is surely lower than Hall's HM or marathon.

I think arguments can be made both ways as both guys have run well, albeit in different events and environments. It's pretty hard to argue with running under an hour in the HM and finishing in the top ten several times in a major marathon. It's also hard to argue with running under 13 min. and being the top American in Beijing. I will say this though, nobody is worried about Ritzenhein on the line for a 5km/10km at an international championship. Hall, on the other hand, has merited concern at any HM/marathon he chooses to enter.

Saying Ritz is a better athlete than Hall is like saying Culpepper is a better athlete than Khannouchi, or that Broe is a better athlete than Teg.

Culpepper > Khannouchi and Broe > Tegenkamp are both clear-cut losing propositions as Tegenkamp/Khannouchi have both run much faster and had better international results than those they are being compared with.

[Scotty]

The discussion was on the long distances (13.1 and Marathon). Hall is the best American at these distances with his 59:xx and 2:06.xx

[Zat0pek]

Personal Records:
3000m: Ritz- 7:39.03, Hall- ????, not faster than 7:50
2-mile: Ritz- 8:11.74, Hall-8:26.26
5000m: Ritz- 12:56.27, Hall- 13:16.03
10000m: Ritz- 27:22.28, Hall- 28:07.93
Half-Marathon: Ritz- 61:26, Hall- 59:43
Marathon: Ritz- 2:10:00, Hall- 2:06:17

I'm glad you agree with me. Like I said, from 10,000 and under, it's all Ritz. Above 10,000 Ritz simply isn't in Hall's league, with Beijing being the exception that proves the rule.

Different events, different skillsets.

Both Ritz and Hall spent some time in events for which they are not as well suited.

Hall labored in college trying to be something he's not, which is a miler. He also notoriously overtrainined in college. He started finding his sweet spot when he finally began to move up his senior year, then took a hugely successful jump over the track distances to the marathon and never looked back, and probably won't. He's clearly found his ideal event. His 2:06 run in London was every inch the measure of Ritz's 12:56 run in Zurich.

Ritz spent some time with the marathon without nearly the success Hall has experienced, either by the watch or in placing at major marathons (again, Beijing being the exception that proves the rule). Ritz's best events are unquestionably on the track. His 5,000 and his great run at Healthy Kidney a few years back (breaking the course record set by a guy went 26:xx shortly after) lines him up as a very solid 5/10/cross guy.

The marathon is clearly a very specialized event these days with little crossover to over events. One would expect a 5/10 guy to experience success at more events becuase they are less specialized with more crossover.

Webb, Hall and Ritz have all had great success at times and had some false starts. Such is the sport and such is life.

[trackgirl]

The best 3km result I could find for Hall is a 7:56 from the 2005 indoor season.
Wow, that's only a couple of seconds faster than German Fernandez's HSR.

[Brumund-Smith]

Hall is better than Ritz right now at the Half Marathon and Marathon distance. I'll give you that. However, that might change (at least for the Half) after the World Half Marathon Championships. If Ritz can do well there and/or break Hall's American Record...and he beat Hall in the OLYMPICS in the Marathon...then one could make a great case that Ritz is actually ahead of Hall. But I realize one race doesn't solve everything.

Ritz was better than Hall in high school. He was better than Hall in college. He has a better set of personal bests. He has performed better in major championships. He has a much more prestigious American Record. What more do you want?

[KevinM]

and he beat Hall in the OLYMPICS in the Marathon...

I'm not sure how this turned into a "who is better" thread, since both are runners US fans would have killed to have during the dark years of the late 90s and early 00s, but using a 9th vs. 10th place finish in the no man's land of the Oly marathon as anything meaningful is silly.

It was the worst day Hall has had as a marathoner and arguably the best Ritz has had, but even that's immaterial.

He has a much more prestigious American Record.

Hall's PR in the marathon (an event at least on equal footing w/ the 5000) is every bit the performance that Ritz's 5000m AR is. In fact it is worth way more points in the IAAF scoring tables than 12:56.27. That it is not an AR is irrelevant for the sake of this comparison.

[Zat0pek]

Hall is better than Ritz right now at the Half Marathon and Marathon distance. I'll give you that. However, that might change (at least for the Half) after the World Half Marathon Championships.

I'm actually expecting Ritz to pop a good one this weekend (assuming the conditions are okay and the course isn't very hilly) and won't be surprised at all if he even breaks Hall's AR. The half-marathon has a lot more in common with the 10,000 than it does the marathon. The marathon is a completely different metabolic beast from any other event in the sport.

The rest of your post is just still comparing apples to oranges because you continue to compare them only at Ritz's events. Of course Ritz was better in high school. The high school events topped out at 5,000, which we have already established is more with Ritz's skillset. The marathon is a completely different beast from anything else in track these days. It is a specialty. Hall has excelled at that specialty far better than Ritz. Ritz has excelled at events where there is considerably more crossover. Apples and oranges.

I don't root for one over the other and I reailze there are very different runners. Comparisons at this point are very much apples and oranges. I'm just thrilled that they both seem to be finding their niche as pros, though I still seriously question whether Ritz's desire to come back to the marathon is prudent. His best performances are firmly in the 2M-10,000 range. The marathon is an event you simply have to try in order to find out if you can do it. Even guys race better up struggle with the marathon sometimes. Ritz gave it a good shot and while the results were good, they weren't great like Hall's and all this signs point to his best event being the 10,000.

[jacksparrow34313]

So...how about that Meb?


JS

[Zat0pek]

So...how about that Meb?


JS

Well, as I said in my initial post, this is huge for him. He's proven he can run well at the marathon (Oly silver, for crying out loud) and this PR may mean he's in for a great run at NY.

[Brumund-Smith]

If comparing two distance runners who have competed in pretty much the same events over the course of their career is an "apples and oranges" discussion, then there is no need discussing anything. Ritz is better than Hall! Period!

[yifter]

If comparing two distance runners who have competed in pretty much the same events over the course of their career is an "apples and oranges" discussion, then there is no need discussing anything. Ritz is better than Hall! Period!

Wanna make it that cut and dry? As of today:
Hall sucks at the track.
Ritz sucks at the marathon (and don't come back at me with the OG 9th).
Period.

[Equinox2100]

It's difficult to talk about which person is better, do you saw PR's, or head to head?

IMO the answer is a case by case basis. If Fernandez lost to one of the Rosa's right now @ Vanny somehow we would still say that he is undisputedly better.

If Usain Bolt lost to Walter Dix in a 200 somehow we would still say Usain is undisputedly better.

But what Wariner V Merritt? Both have impressive victories on great stages over the the other, similar to Hall and Ritz.

Do we say X is better than Y because Y won most recently? Or should we look at whats in between?

Personally, I'm inclined to say Ritz > Hall at THIS MOMENT because while Hall had a great 1/2 / whole marathon in the last couple years, Ritz laid it down where it counted, and it also seems like he's made another step up in his ability as evident by his 12:56. That being said, however, the Marathon and the 5k is as different as sprinting & hurdling. Hm.

[KevinM]

If comparing two distance runners who have competed in pretty much the same events over the course of their career is an "apples and oranges" discussion, then there is no need discussing anything. Ritz is better than Hall! Period!


Why not look at how each is in his best event? This isn't the decathlon. Four out of Hall's five marathons (London x2, Oly Trials, and Boston) trump anything Ritz has on his professional resume other than Zurich and possibly the WC this year. As I mentioned previously, Hall's marathon PR is also arguably a better pure performance than the 12:56.

I don't point these things out to say that Hall is better or more impressive that Ritz, just to point out that it's not NEARLY as cut-and-dry as you believe.

And yep, both would probably trade everything they've accomplished for Meb's Oly silver.

[Brumund-Smith]

Wanna make it that cut and dry? As of today:
Hall sucks at the track.
Ritz sucks at the marathon (and don't come back at me with the OG 9th).
Period.

I am going to come back to it, because it's a fact. Ritz sucks so bad at the marathon that he placed ninth in the Olympics and beat Ryan Hall. Obviously neither of them "suck" on the track or on the roads. Ritz has accomplished more on the roads than Hall has on the track, and I'd wager that Ritz has accomplished more on the track than Hall has on the roads. Ritz has a sixth and a ninth to his credit in the 10K on the track (in WC settings), both better than Hall's best (and only marathon) finish. Oh yeah, and Ritz beat him in that race too!

The "competition" isn't exactly lopsided, but Ritz has to be considered ahead. And yes, I agree with KevinM that they both would probably trade it all for an Olympic silver.

As far as Wariner vs. Merritt, overall, Wariner is better. Recently, Merritt has been better. Not much of an argument there.

[yifter]

I am going to come back to it, because it's a fact.

The OG and WC are so watered down in the 'thon. They just are. Proof: "Also on a single day (the weekend of Rotterdam), 13 Kenyans ran 2:09 or better. Unreal." That's one day this spring. In four tries how many times has ritz broken 2:10? Zero. That sucks internationally when Kenya has 13 people running better than that on one weekend. Doesn't mean Ritz can't medal one day, just means he's gonna have to catch a lot of breaks even if he ha substantially drops his PR.

http://www.letsrun.com/2009/weekthatwas0428.php

[king99]

In two days folks will be telling us the half marathon does not matter either.

[Zat0pek]

In two days folks will be telling us the half marathon does not matter either.

Why do you say that?

As I said earlier, based on what we've seen on the track from him this summer, I won't be a bit surprised if he breaks Hall's AR because the half has a lot more in common with the 10 than it does the marathon.

Hall ran his 59:42 when he was just starting to transition from the track to the marathon. Hall was probably in shape to bomb a huge 10,000 PR that day. Once he went to the marathon full time, I doubt Hall could run that for the half again.

[yifter]

Once he went to the marathon full time, I doubt Hall could run that for the half again.

Or even should be able to drop a sub 60 while getting ready. Countless examples out there of your favorite (Culpepper) getting drilled in a half or 15k prior to a marathon and then wiping the floor with those same guys a couple weeks later. Same with KK, guy would run 26.2 at a pace he could barely hold for 12k weeks earlier.

[Scotty]

Again, this is not complicated. At this stage, Hall is the best American Marathoner and Half Marathoner. Not a debate there. Very clear cut.

Obviously Ritz is the better 5k guy. No one is debating that either.

[herr]

I tend to agree with Scotty on this.

Its hard to know what to make out of USATF XC Championship results. They are sort of funky and don't ultiamtely show that much in a secular sense on the Ritz-Hall comparison:



USATF National Cross Country Championships

2009

1 2 Meb Keflezighi 33 San Diego CA Nike 36:06
2 486 Tim Nelson 24 Portland OR Nike 36:06
3 4 Robert Curtis 24 Ardmore PA Reebok 36:09
4 1 Jorge Torres 28 Boulder CO Reebok 36:16
5 11 Edward Moran 27 Williamsburg VA Nike 36:18




2008


1 641 Dathan Ritzenhein Nike Eugene OR 25 35:03
2 671 Jorge Torres Reebok Boulder CO 27 35:29
3 643 Josh Rohatinsky Nike Beaverton OR 25 35:41
4 616 Edward Moran Nike Williamsburg VA 26 35:43
5 563 Ryan Hall Asics Mammoth Lakes CA 25 35:50



2007

1 Alan Culpepper Nike Lafayette CO 34 37:09
2 Adam Goucher Nike Portland OR 31 37:35
3 Dathan Ritzenhein Nike Boulder CO 24 37:47
4 Jorge Torres Reebok Boulder CO 26 38:07
5 Michael Spence New Balance Ogden UT 28 38:15



2006

1 16 Ryan Hall, 23 34:38 Woodside, CA Asics
2 13 Jorge Torres, 25 35:05 Boulder, CO Reebok
3 1 607 Max King, 25 35:20 Bend, OR Team XO
4 11 Dathan Ritzenhein, 23 35:27 Boulder, CO Nike
5 648 Jason Hartmann, 24 35:39 Boulder, CO Nike

[Zat0pek]

As I said earlier, based on what we've seen on the track from him this summer, I won't be a bit surprised if he breaks Hall's AR because the half has a lot more in common with the 10 than it does the marathon.

Hall ran his 59:42 when he was just starting to transition from the track to the marathon. Hall was probably in shape to bomb a huge 10,000 PR that day. Once he went to the marathon full time, I doubt Hall could run that for the half again.

Ritz 3rd in 1:00:00, just eighteen seconds off of Hall's AR. Great run!

But hardly a surprise given his outstanding track performances this summer.

[yifter]

Ritz 3rd in 1:00:00, just eighteen seconds off of Hall's AR. Great run!

But hardly a surprise given his outstanding track performances this summer.

Totally agree.

Will not be viewed as great a mark as it is due to his turnaround this summer and the, foolish in my view, leaking of his 10 mile race in practice and his 9xmile.

[Blutosky]

20k en route of 56:48. 1:04 under Meb's mark.


Edit: And his 15k was 42:29, off of Todd Williams' 42:22.

[yifter]

http://www.universalsports.com/mediaPlayer/media.dbml?id=653230&sid=13055&db_oem_id=23000


Just skip ahead to 1:40 mark. Ritz ran really tough in this.

[Equinox2100]

http://www.universalsports.com/mediaPlayer/media.dbml?id=653230&sid=13055&db_oem_id=23000


Just skip ahead to 1:40 mark. Ritz ran really tough in this.

Christ Ritz is exciting. USA!

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

Countless examples out there of your favorite (Culpepper) getting drilled in a half or 15k prior to a marathon and then wiping the floor with those same guys a couple weeks later.

I don't think Culpepper is the best example as he has only done a moderate amount of what could be considered floor mopping in one marathon (2:09:41 debut). Baldini would be a better example.

[Brumund-Smith]

Meb wins the NYC Marathon today! Figured this thread has to be pulled up again. Meb is clearly on a roll.

Also, on a more selfish note, I'd like to point out that since I last posted on this thread (arguing that Ritz was better than Hall), Ritz placed third in the World Half-Marathon Championships and Hall placed fourth in the NYC Marathon.

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

Also, on a more selfish note, I'd like to point out that since I last posted on this thread (arguing that Ritz was better than Hall), Ritz placed third in the World Half-Marathon Championships and Hall placed fourth in the NYC Marathon.

That's like arguing in 1986 that U2's October is one of the best albums of all time. Just because Joshua Tree came out the following year doesn't make your argument retroactively correct.

[Brumund-Smith]

That's like arguing in 1986 that U2's October is one of the best albums of all time. Just because Joshua Tree came out the following year doesn't make your argument retroactively correct.

The past two weeks are just REAFFIRMING my point. Ritz is better than Hall. More evidence is piled on top now.

[king99]

YOu never stop Brumund, but:

1. I love it

2. I agree 100% and will be demonstrated in some huge marathon in next two years, Hall will probably be okay to run by then, if it fits his very lightly raced schedule. Should have some training under him.:D :D

[Scotty]

The past two weeks are just REAFFIRMING my point. Ritz is better than Hall. More evidence is piled on top now.

Not at the Marathon and Half Marathon. Based on previous results, Hall has been better in those two distances.

The future is anyone's guess.

[Brumund-Smith]

Not at the Marathon and Half Marathon. Based on previous results, Hall has been better in those two distances.

The future is anyone's guess.

Duh, go read the thread. I said Hall was better than Ritz at the half and full marathon. But Ritz is clearly closing the gap (and the gap between Ritz and Hall in the track events is enormous).

[yifter]

The past two weeks are just REAFFIRMING my point. Ritz is better than Hall. More evidence is piled on top now.

All the past two races have reaffirmed is that Hall is a better marathoner than Ritz and Ritz is probably better suited for racing a half than Hall, things we already knew before the WCH and NYCM. Just my view, don't have to agree.

For a long time ('06 Great North on) Ritz has been a monster up to and including the half marathon. His world champs race just confirmed it. Hall took 6 months (fall '06-spring '07) and was dominant at 20k-half setting multiple records. Since moving to the marathon he's run nice halves but honestly most people getting ready to run a full shouldn't be running sub 60 3-4 weeks out (unless named Geb, even Warinju didn't/couldn't).

King I know you would love Hall to go Rod Dixon style and kick ass and take names 1500-'thon or Virgin attempting to take it to Seko on Seko's turf, ain't happening. Not saying Hall isn't gonna alter things leading toward '12, just saying he is not gonna be the all around guy many want him to be (and perhaps even should be).

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

The past two weeks are just REAFFIRMING my point. Ritz is better than Hall. More evidence is piled on top now.

This new evidence didn't exist when you made your point. If you want to make the argument again now go ahead, the result may be different, but at the time you were wrong.

[king99]

Yifter , Now i am confused.

You think he will be a more well rounded guy or not? I don;t see it, not now.

[Brumund-Smith]

This new evidence didn't exist when you made your point. If you want to make the argument again now go ahead, the result may be different, but at the time you were wrong.

At the time I was WRONG? Wow. So the past two races have swung the vote in Ritz's favor? I don't think so. Ritz was better before those two races, and his gap has widened after the past two races.

I'll say it again. Ritz was better in high school, was better in college, has better range, has better PRs, and has performed better in major championships. Before the past two races, that was true. Now, that is even more true.

[Scotty]

At the time I was WRONG? Wow. So the past two races have swung the vote in Ritz's favor? I don't think so. Ritz was better before those two races, and his gap has widened after the past two races.

I'll say it again. Ritz was better in high school, was better in college, has better range, has better PRs, and has performed better in major championships. Before the past two races, that was true. Now, that is even more true.

Read the thread. Everyone knows that Ritz is the better 5k and 10k guy...and that Hall is the better Marathoner and Half Marathoner. There is no argument...we all agree. No one is talking about HS or College. We were talking about their pro careers.

(Yes, Ritz has been running great stuff since the summer. Really coming on, and good to see. Hall, apparently has leveled off a bit. Still running some good stuff on the roads. No longer a track runner, though not sure why he does not drop in a 10k once in a while).

[fourjz]

Great win for MEb,I did'nt hear from Marathon experts that Meb would be in the picture.So what happened ?:o :p

[Yuri in the Alcoves]

Great win for MEb,I did'nt hear from Marathon experts that Meb would be in the picture.

You were talking to the wrong ones then.

[BlackIrish]

You were talking to the wrong ones then.

I didn't realize experts or "experts" called it right 100% of the time.