Current version of humans are physically the sorriest lot in history

[Zat0pek]

Confirms what I've always maintained: Humans are NOT simply "getting better" athletically with the mere passage of time: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...=11604&sp=true

If anything, we are becoming WORSE athletically as a group with the passage of time.


Modern man a wimp says anthropologist

Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:24am EDT
By John Mehaffey (http://blogs.reuters.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=john.mehaffey&)

LONDON (Reuters) - Many prehistoric Australian aboriginals could have outrun world 100 and 200 meters record holder Usain Bolt in modern conditions.

Some Tutsi men in Rwanda exceeded the current world high jump record of 2.45 meters during initiation ceremonies in which they had to jump at least their own height to progress to manhood.

Any Neanderthal woman could have beaten former bodybuilder and current California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in an arm wrestle.

These and other eye-catching claims are detailed in a book by Australian anthropologist Peter McAllister entitled "Manthropology" and provocatively sub-titled "The Science of the Inadequate Modern Male."

McAllister sets out his stall in the opening sentence of the prologue.

"If you're reading this then you -- or the male you have bought it for -- are the worst man in history.

"No ifs, no buts -- the worst man, period...As a class we are in fact the sorriest cohort of masculine Homo sapiens to ever walk the planet."

Delving into a wide range of source material McAllister finds evidence he believes proves that modern man is inferior to his predecessors in, among other fields, the basic Olympic athletics disciplines of running and jumping.

His conclusions about the speed of Australian aboriginals 20,000 years ago are based on a set of footprints, preserved in a fossilized claypan lake bed, of six men chasing prey.

FLEET-FOOTED ABORIGINALS

An analysis of the footsteps of one of the men, dubbed T8, shows he reached speeds of 37 kph on a soft, muddy lake edge. Bolt, by comparison, reached a top speed of 42 kph during his then world 100 meters record of 9.69 seconds at last year's Beijing Olympics.

In an interview in the English university town of Cambridge where he was temporarily resident, McAllister said that, with modern training, spiked shoes and rubberized tracks, aboriginal hunters might have reached speeds of 45 kph.

"We can assume they are running close to their maximum if they are chasing an animal," he said.

"But if they can do that speed of 37 kph on very soft ground I suspect there is a strong chance they would have outdone Usain Bolt if they had all the advantages that he does.

"We can tell that T8 is accelerating toward the end of his tracks."

McAllister said it was probable that any number of T8's contemporaries could have run as fast.

"We have to remember too how incredibly rare these fossilizations are," he said. "What are the odds that you would get the fastest runner in Australia at that particular time in that particular place in such a way that was going to be preserved?"

Turning to the high jump, McAllister said photographs taken by a German anthropologist showed young men jumping heights of up to 2.52 meters in the early years of last century.

STARK DECLINE

"It was an initiation ritual, everybody had to do it. They had to be able to jump their own height to progress to manhood," he said.

"It was something they did all the time and they lived very active lives from a very early age. They developed very phenomenal abilities in jumping.

They were jumping from boyhood onwards to prove themselves."

McAllister said a Neanderthal woman had 10 percent more muscle bulk than modern European man. Trained to capacity she would have reached 90 percent of Schwarzenegger's bulk at his peak in the 1970s.

"But because of the quirk of her physiology, with a much shorter lower arm, she would slam him to the table without a problem," he said.

Manthropology abounds with other examples:

* Roman legions completed more than one-and-a-half marathons a day carrying more than half their body weight in equipment.

* Athens employed 30,000 rowers who could all exceed the achievements of modern oarsmen.

* Australian aboriginals threw a hardwood spear 110 meters or more (the current world javelin record is 98.48).

McAllister said it was difficult to equate the ancient spear with the modern javelin but added: "Given other evidence of Aboriginal man's superb athleticism you'd have to wonder whether they couldn't have taken out every modern javelin event they entered."

Why the decline?

"We are so inactive these days and have been since the industrial revolution really kicked into gear," McAllister replied. "These people were much more robust than we were.

"We don't see that because we convert to what things were like about 30 years ago. There's been such a stark improvement in times, technique has improved out of sight, times and heights have all improved vastly since then but if you go back further it's a different story.

"At the start of the industrial revolution there are statistics about how much harder people worked then.

"The human body is very plastic and it responds to stress. We have lost 40 percent of the shafts of our long bones because we have much less of a muscular load placed upon them these days.

"We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven't developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes, doesn't come close to replicating that.

"We wouldn't want to go back to the brutality of those days but there are some things we would do well to profit from."

[eh]

I don't usually quote DiscoGary, but he had a great line in another thread about this: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[michak]

IMO this guy isn't a very good anthropologist he talks about Neanderthals as if they were the same as modern humans they are an entire different species so it is not a valid comparison.

Manthropology abounds with other examples:

* Roman legions completed more than one-and-a-half marathons a day carrying more than half their body weight in equipment.

* Athens employed 30,000 rowers who could all exceed the achievements of modern oarsmen.


When a military force works people to death training they are going to be better than todays safe training. Yes in the past we were stronger and faster but that doesn't make us wimps.

[BlackIrish]

Maybe as a whole, we have had the strongest, fastest homo sapiens ever during this period though.

[Ecliptica]

I posted in the other thread that I don't find this totally unbelievable -- and there's a good chance it's probably true -- but that has to do with his looking at populations rather than samples.

Certainly it's plausible that the whole population of those times are faster than our population as a whole, but some of our samples might be stronger/faster.

And again, keep in mind that he is comparing different species; it's like saying a chimpanzee is stronger than a man because he can lift more times his body weight. There are definitely some sampling errors with this; I might go more into it later but meh; don't care.

[Pioneerunner]

Hes Australian and hes talking about manliness, I have no reason to not believe everything that he says.

[NSHSDad]

You have to beware of extrapolations like this. I can think of a number of other such studies that were highly flawed. One good example was the examination of skulls of various hominid fossils, where some anthropologists claimed that bumps on the sides of the skulls represented a more highly developed auditory cortex. It was a pretty far reach.

Certainly compared to other species we aren't as swift, nor as strong. Our main advantage is our ability to think through problems, create instruments and develop workable theories about how to manipulate things in our environment.

Whether early bipedal hominids were faster is a matter of speculation - I don't see that his study strongly supports this, but I could be convinced, given more data. One countervailing argument is that, as a species, we've gotten taller and our stride lengths have longer over time.

[OnePoint]

the fact that roman legions marched "1.5 marathons per day" in heavy equipment doesn't mean jack **** about their ability to run faster than current marathoners. sure, its grueling, but many modern humans, IF needed, could probably train to do just that in a military unit.

I'd like to see those Romans that are apparently such better marathoners beat Geb though.

Not the same thing at all.

I mean hell, we have people that run 100 miles in a day right now, so its not like the ultra stuff disappeared or anything. And even slow people like Dean Karnazes can still do 50 marathons in 50 days. It doesn't mean they were more skilled in the Roman times at all.

[trackgirl]

An Australian anthropologist saying Australian aboriginals are better
is a conclusion that smacks of Australian-style political correctness.

[Prince]

And life expectancy is two times as great...

[Equinox2100]

SO MANY HOLES

[mentle bentle]

the fact that roman legions marched "1.5 marathons per day" in heavy equipment doesn't mean jack **** about their ability to run faster than current marathoners. sure, its grueling, but many modern humans, IF needed, could probably train to do just that in a military unit.

I'd like to see those Romans that are apparently such better marathoners beat Geb though.

Not the same thing at all.

I mean hell, we have people that run 100 miles in a day right now, so its not like the ultra stuff disappeared or anything. And even slow people like Dean Karnazes can still do 50 marathons in 50 days. It doesn't mean they were more skilled in the Roman times at all.

lol nice way to slip in a dig at Dean Karnazes

[Brumund-Smith]

Zat0pek, if I didn't know you, I'd say you were a troll. There's no way you can actually believe all this garbage. The guy can tell from fossilized remains of a riverbank how fast somebody ran? Yeah, because that's TOTALLY plausible.

There is nothing in the entire passage that even remotely resembles something that at one time could have possibly been conceived to have been in the general vicinity of a fact.

Everyone in this room is dumber for having read it. And may God have mercy on your soul.

[CGull]

If this is all true (I doubt it is, except when comparing populations rather than samples as Ecliptica pointed out) then it still smacks of dumbassery... are we really the sorriest men ever because we can't all jump our own height and lift huge weights? We stopped doing that for a reason; we invented machines. If anything, the strongest ones are the sorriest instances of manliness in human history.

[Ecliptica]

I'll play devil's advocate because, really, think about it. . .do you think there are any group of people in the world today that could build pyramids without machinery?

I honestly doubt it.

[CGull]

I'll play devil's advocate because, really, think about it. . .do you think there are any group of people in the world today that could build pyramids without machinery?

I honestly doubt it.

America? Let's find out! Requisite characteristics... small number of individuals with an understanding of complex math (check) tremendous natural resources (check) too much time on our hands (50/50 shot) opposition to slave labor (outsource it!).

[BlackIrish]

Zat0pek, if I didn't know you, I'd say you were a troll. There's no way you can actually believe all this garbage. The guy can tell from fossilized remains of a riverbank how fast somebody ran? Yeah, because that's TOTALLY plausible.



QFE. Probably the biggest blind follower behind drewconstantine IMO.

[BCXC_runner]

Is this what they are referring to?

[watchout]

I completely accept the premise -- that modern man is, on average, much less than prehistoric man in physical ability, even if his examples weren't too great.

Think about it. Prehistoric man needed to hunt in order to survive. Most of their time was probably spent doing physical labor of some sort. And in contrast, modern man is on the top of the food chain and (in general) what drives us in life is not being able to hunt in order to survive and procreate, but rather make money. A shift from physical to the social and intellectual (depending on your occupation).

It's only logical that, as this has become more and more apparent, we have utilized our physical capacities less and less, and physical capacity becoming less and less important in our society, our gene pool as well as our actual physical prowess would logically reflect this over time.

We no longer have to hunt a mammoth or defend our group against nature. Now we have to provide a service to other people, whether it be accounting, teaching, inventing, or whatever.

[oogie]

I completely accept the premise -- that modern man is, on average, much less than prehistoric man in physical ability, even if his examples weren't too great.

Think about it. Prehistoric man needed to hunt in order to survive. Most of their time was probably spent doing physical labor of some sort. And in contrast, modern man is on the top of the food chain and (in general) what drives us in life is not being able to hunt in order to survive and procreate, but rather make money. A shift from physical to the social and intellectual (depending on your occupation).

It's only logical that, as this has become more and more apparent, we have utilized our physical capacities less and less, and physical capacity becoming less and less important in our society, our gene pool as well as our actual physical prowess would logically reflect this over time.

We no longer have to hunt a mammoth or defend our group against nature. Now we have to provide a service to other people, whether it be accounting, teaching, inventing, or whatever.

Granted, the typical person living today is not moving/exercising their body nearly as much as a neanderthal. But theres several enormous facts that are being overlooked:

1. Diet. Our diet today is way more balanced and nutritious than anything ancient peoples (even Romans) would be getting. Thanks to international trade and advances in agricultural technology, we have immediate access to all kinds of fruits, vegetables, meats and breads that give us a much greater balance of amino acids, proteins, vitamins, etc. Those are all enormous factors in our athletic ability. Granted, some people eat pure crap and probably don't enjoy these benefits, but I'm sure Geb and most athletes out there eat far healthier than mammoth meat or the few nuts and berries you'd manage to scrounge up in the ancient plains.

2. Training knowledge. We know far more about human anatomy, the body, and what makes for a healthier, more efficient athlete than anyone in the past. Sure, Neanderthals might have been bigger in size, but size does not equal strength, especially considering that most of what those big guys packed was probably fat (remember how cold that whole ice age thing was?). We now know how to construct the perfect athlete. Hell, if you pumped anyone with enough PEDs, they'd probably be able to ****ing murder a mammoth with their bare hands and put those neanderthals to shame. MARION JONES ANGRY, MARION JONES SMASH.

3. What the hell kind of sources is this guy quoting? I'm sorry, but if he's pulling this data about the Roman legions out of Livy or any of the other Roman historians, he needs to get a god damn reality check. You cannot trust a word of what those historians say when it comes to the actual facts of their military. These weren't academics citing primary source documents - they were writing entertaining epics about the great race that is the Roman peoples. So you can just shove that 26.2 + miles a day garbage right back up there, Mr. I'm-Australian-And-Hump-Kangaroos.

honestly, its articles like this that do incredible injustice to the scientific method and only perpetuate stupid assumptions about our history. Thats called setting us back in our understanding of our species, not putting us forward.

[Zat0pek]

Zat0pek, if I didn't know you, I'd say you were a troll. There's no way you can actually believe all this garbage. The guy can tell from fossilized remains of a riverbank how fast somebody ran? Yeah, because that's TOTALLY plausible.

There is nothing in the entire passage that even remotely resembles something that at one time could have possibly been conceived to have been in the general vicinity of a fact.

Everyone in this room is dumber for having read it. And may God have mercy on your soul.

You're missing the joke. So are many others. Perhaps I was too subtle because those at whom the joke was aimed have not weighed in.

[Marrow2000]

We may not be as physically fit as earlier humans, but compared to Romans, which were not very long ago, we are not very different.

And like another poster said: comparing us to neanderthals, when we are different species, is just downright stupid.

[crosscountryrunner]

You're missing the joke. So are many others. Perhaps I was too subtle because those at whom the joke was aimed have not weighed in.

Oh. That was pretty subtle.

[MIDAS]

Don't care about the joke. I actually like this discussion topic.

Was the average person that long ago more physically fit than today? Absolutely.

Lol at them beating Bolt or any modern sprinter. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that there are so many more people now. Odds of creating genetic freaks are thousands of times higher. So the odds of many people with Bolt's (or gay's or gatlin's) natural talent even existing ever on the planet are low, at least in ancient times.

[BlackIrish]

You're missing the joke. So are many others. Perhaps I was too subtle because those at whom the joke was aimed have not weighed in.

You should do stand-up.

[Zat0pek]

You should do stand-up.

The article I posted reads like something out the Onion. I was laughing my arse off when I read it.

I was attempting to have a little fun with the discussion on the "men's 800" thread about whether people were just naturally getting faster with the mere passage of time. I say no, others said yes. I thought this article, which reads like satire to me, would be a fun extension of that discussion.

Given the reactions of those who that took it (and my posting of it) so seriously, I see I may have been a wee bit too subtle in my approach.

[BlackIrish]

The article I posted reads like something out the Onion. I was laughing my arse off when I read it.

I was attempting to have a little fun with the discussion on the "men's 800" thread about whether people were just naturally getting faster with the mere passage of time. I say no, others said yes. I thought this article, which reads like satire to me, would be a fun extension of that discussion.

Given the reactions of those who that took it (and my posting of it) so seriously, I see I may have been a wee bit too subtle in my approach.

I retract my statements then, but an inside joke / satirical jab is useless when you have no one to revel in its hilarity with immediately. If you're the only one in on the joke, it's much harder for people to understand, hence the troll comments.

[king99]

I disagree with Zat constantly and it probably matters not to him , I have fun with it.

I think it is hytserical that a guy like Bolt has come along and run faster than anyone absurdly and relative drops in time from all timer like Michael Johnson and yet no one in the U.S. can approach 1:42.x lately at 800M in a much bigger country with more folks today running for sure.

I stand by my satirical commentary on U.S. 800M running, everyday of the week.

We should be better at it, no matter your own personal perspective, it is the only event that has not evolved since the Johnny Grays of the country or will not advance substantially in the near term.

Our best guys are over 2 seconds off a WR at a distance shorter than 1500M.

Oh yeah? I do get the possible drug thing, that advanced times faster than they should have..

By the way do folks think Johnny Gray dirty? You would hav to to stand by Zat's logic, guys should be running as fast as Rick Wohlhuter did routinely 33 years later. It is done in every other single event.

[watchout]

Granted, the typical person living today is not moving/exercising their body nearly as much as a neanderthal. But theres several enormous facts that are being overlooked:

1. Diet. Our diet today is way more balanced and nutritious than anything ancient peoples (even Romans) would be getting. Thanks to international trade and advances in agricultural technology, we have immediate access to all kinds of fruits, vegetables, meats and breads that give us a much greater balance of amino acids, proteins, vitamins, etc. Those are all enormous factors in our athletic ability. Granted, some people eat pure crap and probably don't enjoy these benefits, but I'm sure Geb and most athletes out there eat far healthier than mammoth meat or the few nuts and berries you'd manage to scrounge up in the ancient plains.

2. Training knowledge. We know far more about human anatomy, the body, and what makes for a healthier, more efficient athlete than anyone in the past. Sure, Neanderthals might have been bigger in size, but size does not equal strength, especially considering that most of what those big guys packed was probably fat (remember how cold that whole ice age thing was?). We now know how to construct the perfect athlete. Hell, if you pumped anyone with enough PEDs, they'd probably be able to ****ing murder a mammoth with their bare hands and put those neanderthals to shame. MARION JONES ANGRY, MARION JONES SMASH.

3. What the hell kind of sources is this guy quoting? I'm sorry, but if he's pulling this data about the Roman legions out of Livy or any of the other Roman historians, he needs to get a god damn reality check. You cannot trust a word of what those historians say when it comes to the actual facts of their military. These weren't academics citing primary source documents - they were writing entertaining epics about the great race that is the Roman peoples. So you can just shove that 26.2 + miles a day garbage right back up there, Mr. I'm-Australian-And-Hump-Kangaroos.

honestly, its articles like this that do incredible injustice to the scientific method and only perpetuate stupid assumptions about our history. Thats called setting us back in our understanding of our species, not putting us forward.

All of that (#1 and 2, since #3 is just pointing out the obvious and has nothing to do with the actual premise, just the "evidence" brought up by someone who none of us take seriously) is only applicable if the population applies the advances.

Necessity > Choice.

That's why we can have select groups match or exceed that of primitive man, but not the population on average.


BTW, the thought of someone being able to murder an elephant with their bare hands, let alone a mammoth... that's pretty funny :D bravo! but I don't see it being possible.

[Zat0pek]

I disagree with Zat constantly and it probably matters not to him , I have fun with it.

'Bout time you weighed in on this. I was beginning to think that you were NEVER going to show up. I couldn't resist posting this for you, even if it reads like something out of The Onion.

[godzilla]

http://images.dailyradar.com/media/uploads/ballhype/photos_large/2008/09/18/adrian-peterson-02_.jpg

I dare any pre-historic man to mess with him.

[cheesedoodles]

http://images.dailyradar.com/media/uploads/ballhype/photos_large/2008/09/18/adrian-peterson-02_.jpg

I dare any pre-historic man to mess with him.

this (Ronnie Coleman):

[Zat0pek]

this (Ronnie Coleman):

Oh, yeah, certainly no PEDs involved in producing THAT....

[king99]

Oh come on, you blame PEDs for everything!!:D

Had to throw in my 800M running thing, just for you..hope all is well.

[Brumund-Smith]

You're missing the joke. So are many others. Perhaps I was too subtle because those at whom the joke was aimed have not weighed in.

Glad to know it was a joke. I am pretty gullible and horrible at recognizing hints.

[godzilla]

adrian peterson is still be to perform incredibly athletic feats

[Zat0pek]

Glad to know it was a joke. I am pretty gullible and horrible at recognizing hints.

Don't feel bad; I was being pretty subtle in yanking king99's chain on this one. You would have to have followed men's 800 thread pretty closely where this was debated to have gotten it.

[Ecliptica]

adrian peterson is still be to perform incredibly athletic feats


. . .:confused: Yes!

[kingcoe]

this (Ronnie Coleman):

The picture of Mr. Coleman has to be one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen.

[IDon'tRun]

The picture of Mr. Coleman has to be one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen.

"Yeahhhhh budddayyyyyyyy!!!!!"

[HoriconAve]

We're WAY more advanced physically now.

Modern American woman has the ability to give birth without even knowing she was pregnant. No way the pre-historics could pull that off. :rolleyes:

[runner1001]

Hi.

On a hot day, a human can outrun a horse in a marathon.

Also, the reason why we're such good distance runners is cause back in the stone ages we watched vultures and then ran after where they landed to scavenge the carcass before they gobbled it all up.

The Human Body Is Built for Distance (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27well.html?_r=1&em)