Ritz

[wetpits]

Ok this has probably been asked a few times already, but what do you think Ritz will have to do in order to become the greatest American distance runner of all time? Is it possible?

[fluffyeutroph]

hmmm. i definatly think he will be the best american distance runner ever(i'm counting webb as middle distance). i don't really like that term though. here is what i predict he will walk away with.

5k- breaks bk's record in the 5k, by how much i'm not sure
10k- first u.s athlete to run sub 27
marathon- could be his strongest event but kk's record is very very tough. i'll go with a high 2:06

[Mr. Powers]

Ok this has probably been asked a few times already, but what do you think Ritz will have to do in order to become the greatest American distance runner of all time? Is it possible?
Olnly problem now is he has to worry about Lagat i tink is the one that became a citizen

[Biscuit_AQ]

he may break 27.

He will never break 13.

[stizz]

Olnly problem now is he has to worry about Lagat i tink is the one that became a citizen
Yeah because they are gonna be squaring off in so many 10k's.......



what the heck are you talking about?

[conabud]

he has a legit shot at breaking 13 and 27 at some point in his career. he is only 21 or 22.
as far as breaking any world records in those two events, that is a different story.

[luv2run]

It's hard to define "greatest" American distance runner of all time.

I think it's agreed that he could become the fastest.

But being the fastest American distance runner of all time (no matter how many events you set american records in) doesn't necessarily translate to success internationally.

The fact is, many Americans of old won gold medals and set world records ... even if Ritz runs much faster than Billy Mills in the 10k and sets an AR, if he doesn't win a gold medal while doing so he won't be as successful internationally as Mills was.

On the other hand, worldwide competition now is fierce. So, in my personal opinion, going sub-13 and sub-27 would qualify him as the greatest American distance runner.

On a third hand, I don't think that "greatest American distance runner" is Ritz's goal. He wants to compete internationally.

[Slinke]

marathon- could be his strongest event but kk's record is very very tough. i'll go with a high 2:06[/QUOTE]

i hate to talk like this, but khannouchi is no american. in my opinion anyone who was born at abnormal altitudes should have an asterisk next to their name in the record book. ritz will be the greatest american runner.

[ctrck2007]

I agree I could see ritz potentiall going sub 27 but sub 13 no way he doesnt have the type of speed that bk did in his prime.

[fluffyeutroph]

I agree I could see ritz potentiall going sub 27 but sub 13 no way he doesnt have the type of speed that bk did in his prime.

hes got the heart to do it. haha just kidding. didn't he run a 3:42 at cu as a fresh? i'd say thats pretty good speed. obviously its not his strong point but i can definatly see a sub 13.

[MaestroXC]

in my opinion anyone who was born at abnormal altitudes should have an asterisk next to their name in the record book.

Oh, so you think Adam Goucher should have an asterisk beside his name? Don't be an idiot. Why not just say that since he's naturalized he isn't a "true" American; that certainly seems to be what you meant.

[gesser]

marathon- could be his strongest event but kk's record is very very tough. i'll go with a high 2:06

i hate to talk like this, but khannouchi is no american. in my opinion anyone who was born at abnormal altitudes should have an asterisk next to their name in the record book. ritz will be the greatest american runner.

I think Mary Liquori is of Italian heritage. Since his ancestors were born in the Mediterrean air, he should've had an asterisk next to his name because he's no "real" American.

Then Bob Kennedy came along. His ancestors were born in Ireland and got that Irish Sea air into them.

If you are a citizen, you are a citizen.

[Slinke]

obviously everyones ancestors were born somewhere else, unless you're a native american. but living at those altitudes gives you an advantage.

[trojanrunna]

obviously everyones ancestors were born somewhere else, unless you're a native american. but living at those altitudes gives you an advantage.
my guess is you're anti-nike oregon project too, aren't you? i'm getting tired of people acting like anybody doing something other than regular running for training is cheating.

[Achilles]

if your parents are foreign but you are born here or you move here early in life and start running later on then i consider them american, but bernard lagat and KK i really dont for record purposes (not that my opinion matters at all). they were born, raised and trained in other countries, the reaped the benifits of training with great runners and lived at alititude for all there lives. then they move here in the middle of there careers.

BL and KK are technically "american citizens" but in my eyes not americans. i dont mind them running for us obviously because they will only make everyone else better but for record purposes its a little shaky IMO

[conabud]

yeah dude, that's true.....i look at it the same way you do. i really don't pay too much attention to KK's times and records as far as american stats go.
i hate to say it, but i really don't consider him an american in relation to running times. hey man, it's great to have him in our country as a citizen, but i'd rather see some farm boy from nebraska (whose only ancestry comes from a country where people aren't born with genetic traits which allow them to run 14-minute 5K's not long after they take their first steps) work his way up to the top of the world distance lists......although that will probably never happen.

[nordicrunner]

then they move here in the middle of there careers.

didn't lagat move here for college? i wouldn't call that the middle of his career. so should we change the records to American Citizen Records and American Records? something like that, eh?

[bravesfanatic4]

i'd rather see some farm boy from nebraska (whose only ancestry comes from a country where people aren't born with genetic traits which allow them to run 14-minute 5K's not long after they take their first steps) work his way up to the top of the world distance lists......although that will probably never happen.
that's going to be me :D

[Mrr82]

didn't lagat move here for college? i wouldn't call that the middle of his career. so should we change the records to American Citizen Records and American Records? something like that, eh?


Whereas i kind of agree with him about the record comments....KK didn't move here in the middle of his career either. He moved here in 1993 i believe as a second rate runner even for American standards....he worked 12-14 hour long days doing dishes and ran at night...did this for years until he finally became a elite runner.

I give the guys lots of props for becomming who he is....people might hate him because he hasn't represented America...but what the guy has gone thruogh just to be great is impressive and something most of our elite runners have never experienced as a few work 40 hours a week, and many work 20 hours a week in some sporting store, and the few lucky like Webb don't work at all. I doubt any of them have experienced 80-90 hour work weeks while marathon training.

[rysheridan]

Whereas i kind of agree with him about the record comments....KK didn't move here in the middle of his career either. He moved here in 1993 i believe as a second rate runner even for American standards....he worked 12-14 hour long days doing dishes and ran at night...did this for years until he finally became a elite runner.

I give the guys lots of props for becomming who he is....people might hate him because he hasn't represented America...but what the guy has gone thruogh just to be great is impressive and something most of our elite runners have never experienced as a few work 40 hours a week, and many work 20 hours a week in some sporting store, and the few lucky like Webb don't work at all. I doubt any of them have experienced 80-90 hour work weeks while marathon training.

ya its because of what he had to go through early on that he shouldn't owe anyone anything reagarding wearing the US of A on his chest. that chicago contract is quite the contrast to the 80-80 hour work weeks.

[TCtheJUMPER/RUNNER]

Hey, are you the Ryan Sheridan......from Walt Whitman? Just Curious........

[conabud]

i'm not meaning to be a jerk here.....i totally respect KK and every other african, etc. that decides to become a citizen and run for us. that's cool and i hope they do well. all i'm saying is that it won't mean as much to me as a huge fan of distance running when a lagat or a KK sets world records as opposed to joey from down the street. i hope more than anything that rupp, mcdougal, ritz, webb and others can medal in the olympics and eventually be right near or even above the best in the world in their repective events someday.
good luck getting better sheridan.....next year is YOUR year.

[Biscuit_AQ]

why are those runners you named Joey down the street? Because they're white and look like you? An American is an American, we don't have gradiations of citizenship.

[Sully 800]

but there is a distinct difference between someone who was born in america, and someone who came to america during their teens. I personally do not think it matters very much, but there is obviously a difference. And there is a gradiation in one sense for that..."natural born citizen"

[eerroognp]

be better than pre

[conabud]

biscuit......you don't seem to get it man. have you been reading my posts? i've been as fair as possible with MY OWN OPINIONS.....and i've said nothing but nice things about foreign runners getting american citizenship. don't be an idiot and start making this a race issue. if i have a friend joey from down the street, isn't it ok for me to rather see him set records then some african dude that recently became a citizen?!!!!

[gesser]

Whereas i kind of agree with him about the record comments....KK didn't move here in the middle of his career either. He moved here in 1993 i believe as a second rate runner even for American standards....he worked 12-14 hour long days doing dishes and ran at night...did this for years until he finally became a elite runner.

I give the guys lots of props for becomming who he is....people might hate him because he hasn't represented America...but what the guy has gone thruogh just to be great is impressive and something most of our elite runners have never experienced as a few work 40 hours a week, and many work 20 hours a week in some sporting store, and the few lucky like Webb don't work at all. I doubt any of them have experienced 80-90 hour work weeks while marathon training.


KK's story is great. It's what the American Dream is all about. To say he's less of an American is absolutely ludicrous. If you immigrate here, you are likely to have a zest and feeling for being an American, that any American-born citizen doesn't have.

And Lagat went to WSU here. So I dk how old he was, but say he was 18 or 19, it's not like he moved to America to crush records. He's been here and has been acclimated to American life for quite some time.

[MadMan1600]

We keep beating around the bush and saying all this crap about people not being true Americans and what not. I'm just going to come right out and say it. America wants to see someone who is white run some fast times! We don't care where the heck they are from, just as long as they are white.

[Biscuit_AQ]

exactly. Joey down the street is another white bread american kid like you and me. I'm saying that you're kidding yourself if you're trying to tell me this guy down the street is anything but that. I have the oddest suspicion that you wouldn't be thrilled about Nef Araia setting some records either.

"Some African dude who just became a citizen" is as much a citizen as Joey, if not moreso. He did have to work for it after all, not just luck out.

[Zat0pek]

what do you think Ritz will have to do in order to become the greatest American distance runner of all time? Is it possible?

1. Win at least two medals in major international competition (Oly, WC, World Cross). Both Shorter ('72 marathon gold and '76 marathon silver) and Virgin (double World Cross gold) did this.

2. Set at least one world record. Ryun and Salazar did this.

3. Set multiple American records. Scott, Virgin, Pre, Kennedy, and many others did this.

4. World rank #1 on several occasions. Several guys did this.

[king99]

I'd say any one of those would be acceptable in today's climate.

Put it this way..none is more likely than one..like it or not.

[Mrr82]

I think Webb is likely to break some American records as is Ritz....that is unless Lagat demolishes some of the records which he probably will....but as it stands today...

I think Webb could take the indoor 3k record in the next few years, the indoor 1500 record as those two are teh weakest by far and definatly within reach...then possibly hte indoor 1k record...and a lot harder but not out of reach the outdoor 1k/1500/mile. And depending on how his career developements which would have to go perfectly..and is a stretch, the 3k/5k records...and again this is just talking about breaking the records as they stand now....impossible to tell what Lagat will do or if they'll count or whatever.

Ritz if he stays healthy could take the 10k and numerous road records....5k/10k/15k/10mile/20k/half marathon are probably all within his reach. The Marathon though i'm not so sure of....and he already holds the American collegiate 10k record if that counts for anything.

[king99]

Mrr with all due respect..not many care that much about road records..and Ritz is going to break 10K record?

I doubt he will break any American track records..and I personally could care less about road records

[Zat0pek]

and Ritz is going to break 10K record? I doubt he will break any American track records

Its not at all unreasonable that he could eventually break Meb's current 10,000 American record (27:13). He's young, and he has 25 seconds to go. Not saying he will, but I certainly think he could in the next couple of years. If he can run 27:38 as injury plagued as he had been the two years prior and as much time as he had missed, I think its very possible he could run a 10,000 AR if he can get an extended period without big injury interruptions and good race conditions.

[milerkick]

Mrr with all due respect..not many care that much about road records..and Ritz is going to break 10K record?

I doubt he will break any American track records..and I personally could care less about road records

The marathon is a road record. I'd care if someone broke the marathon record or won an Olympic medal.

[king99]

Zat? Whats to say the American record IS 27:13 in two years..who says meb doesn;t drop it to 27:08..still think Ritz is going that low?..My point being I still do not see anything on a consistent basis to indicate there is 27:0x there OR 13 flat

[Mrr82]

Zat? Whats to say the American record IS 27:13 in two years..who says meb doesn;t drop it to 27:08..still think Ritz is going that low?..My point being I still do not see anything on a consistent basis to indicate there is 27:0x there OR 13 flat

I agree it's not given...and i agree the record might not be 2713 in two years. But i also have been incredibly impressed with Ritz's resiliancy over the years, and his incredible work ethic and determination to be the best.

he shocked many when he ran 2738 last year....2750 would have been more believable...but the guy off all his injuries ran 2738....I won't guarantee him any records....but i certainly won't ever doubt him either.

[Mrr82]

Mrr with all due respect..not many care that much about road records..and Ritz is going to break 10K record?

I doubt he will break any American track records..and I personally could care less about road records


Well if he goes the route of marathon i think those road records become more important....15k's, 20k's, 10 miles, half marathons.....those build to the lore of a marathon runner don't you think?

Those are the kind of things they do in preparation for Marathons and if he goes the marathon route i think those records will hold more importance in my opinion.

[Zat0pek]

Zat? Whats to say the American record IS 27:13 in two years..who says meb doesn;t drop it to 27:08..still think Ritz is going that low?..My point being I still do not see anything on a consistent basis to indicate there is 27:0x there OR 13 flat

I totally agree on the 13-flat. Ritz won't do that.

Your point about the "consistent" basis is precisely why I think he could get the AR. That he could run 27:38 despite being able to train only about half the time the previous 18-24 months says a lot. If he can find a way stay healthy and string together a good 12-24 months with losing a couple of months at a time like he has, yeah, I think its a reasonable possibility he could get the AR.

Let's put it this way; I don't see anyone else on the scene right now that I think has a better chance of getting it, other than Meb himself, of course.

[VoidSix]

I don't see why if he ran 13:27 as a true freshman he won't run 12:57 someday in his career if he can stay free of injury.



Also, this isn't a racist remark at all, but I think that any American citizen should be able to break records, but when you are talking about greatest "American" it should be people born as citizens. I don't care if they are black or white or anything, I think they should have to be born as citizens to be in this running.

For example, if Nathan Brannen claimed US citizenship and won an olympic gold, I would still not consider him the "greatest American". I am not trying to be racist it's just, that's not how he was born, he is a born Canadian.

[VoidSix]

In order to become the greatest American distance runner ever, you are going to have to compare him to the greatest American distance runner thus far. Who that is, is extremely arguable. But in my opinion, the best so far is Jim Ryun, and I think Ritz might be too late to take down Ryun. He would have to:

1.) Break a world record

2.) Win international meets

3.) Win AT LEAST and Olympic silver medal


And he would have to do even more to compete with Ryun, because by this time in his career, Ryun was moving a lot faster. He had WR in college in the mile and was competeting with WR holders in high school..and winning.

[Zat0pek]

I don't see why if he ran 13:27 as a true freshman he won't run 12:57 someday in his career if he can stay free of injury.

30 seconds off a 5,000 is a lot more the 25 off a 10,000 for an AR.

The 5,000 will not be an emphasis for him in the future; he has already expressed his intentions to move to the marathon in the next few years. He likely won't train specifically for it, and he probably won't run it much during his core season.

The 5,000 is the very bottom of his effective range. He's much more of a 10,000/cross/marathon type.

[Jolly Farm]

In order to become the greatest American distance runner ever, you are going to have to compare him to the greatest American distance runner thus far. Who that is, is extremely arguable. But in my opinion, the best so far is Jim Ryun, and I think Ritz might be too late to take down Ryun. He would have to:

1.) Break a world record

2.) Win international meets

3.) Win AT LEAST and Olympic silver medal


And he would have to do even more to compete with Ryun, because by this time in his career, Ryun was moving a lot faster. He had WR in college in the mile and was competeting with WR holders in high school..and winning.

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, but I think it's unfair to compare runners from completely different eras with very different competition.

[rysheridan]

If you want to be reaaaaaal literal about it, then he has to get a bunch of AR's. To be the best ever IMO he needs to get the records as well as do something big (medal!) on a grand stage-Olympic Games, WC, WXC, Grand Prix, etc.

[conabud]

you are correct about the comparisons from different eras.......ritz has to deal with about 20 times the comp that ryun had to deal with in his time, and records weren't as fast back in the sixties, so it was easier to break them. today, running records are so fast that it has become harder and harder to make them even faster.

[VoidSix]

Kip Keino, Snell, etc wasn't good competition?

Not to mention shortly after that Sebastian Coe, Ovett, Cram started putting down fast times. Coe is still #2 in the 800m all-time.

But perhaps for distances 5k and over, you're right.

[Mrr82]

Kip Keino, Snell, etc wasn't good competition?

Not to mention shortly after that Sebastian Coe, Ovett, Cram started putting down fast times. Coe is still #2 in the 800m all-time.

But perhaps for distances 5k and over, you're right.

Guys who run 330 in the 1500 don't make Kenyas team...guys with pr's faster then our American record (minus KK) don't come close to making Kenya's national marathon team.

[VoidSix]

Yeah my point was that you can only have three of those guys regardless of how many there are in Kenya.

The British teams in the times of Coe, Cram, Ovett, were better than the Kenyan teams are now. I mean, how often does Kenya go 1-2 in the 1500? Not to say they couldn't.