IPTT Week 6 rankings are up

[idontgetit14]

1) York (Elmhurst)

2) Glenbard South (Glen Ellyn)

3) Palatine

4) St. Charles North

5) Prospect (Mt. Prospect)

6) Sandburg (Orland Park)

7) Naperville North

8) Waubonsie Valley (Aurora)

9) Barrington

10) Neuqua Valley (Naperville)

11) Lincoln Way East (Frankfort)

12) Downers Grove South

13) New Trier (Winnetka)

14) Wheaton North

15) Lockport

16) Wheaton-Warrenville South

17) Schaumburg

18) Benet Academy (Lisle)

19) Fenwick (Oak Park)

20) Naperville Central

21) Cary Grove

22) Stevenson (Lincolnshire)

23) Edwardsville

24) Hersey (Arlington Heights)

25) Rock Island

[illinoisprepster]

not much movement this past weekend as it was just a filler for the upcoming post season. One more poll but Individual rankings up to state. It will be interesting to see who makes it and who don't.

[run2win]

how did wws plummet like that after finishing 2nd to DGN w/ out popejoy?

[krames240]

umm on IPTT it says fenwick is in the ESSC meet, however we are not in that. WE are in the CCL, just to let you know.

[illinoisprepster]

umm on IPTT it says fenwick is in the ESSC meet, however we are not in that. WE are in the CCL, just to let you know.

thanks! Are you at Schiller? Sometimes the info given to me is jacked up. Thanks though!

[illinoisprepster]

how did wws plummet like that after finishing 2nd to DGN w/ out popejoy?

Frankly, WWS should have won the meet with or without Popejoy. This is a down year for the DGN.

[krames240]

thanks! Are you at Schiller? Sometimes the info given to me is jacked up. Thanks though!


NO not anymore the south side wanted to move it. So it is at 136th and harlem at a place called Turtle head lake.

[illinoisprepster]

Our live coverage this weekend will Public league, WSC (the one with York), and MSL. Maybe Fox Valley... who is running on Friday again?

[ILRun1]

TJ - How is your girl Sequoia McKinney doing? Also, where did Regina George come from? Did she run junior high, or did she just come onto the running scene this year?

[Patriot 81]

DVC meet is Friday for boys and girls. It's at Northside Park in Wheaton and starts at 2:30.

[illinoisprepster]

TJ - How is your girl Sequoia McKinney doing? Also, where did Regina George come from? Did she run junior high, or did she just come onto the running scene this year?

Sequoia is just biding time. She had a bad summer and is trying to catch up. She did blaze a few quality girls in the meantime between stress filled moments... this Regina George is it. She is the biggest surprise this year boys or girls (outside of a healthy Popejoy :D ).

[illinoisprepster]

DVC meet is Friday for boys and girls. It's at Northside Park in Wheaton and starts at 2:30.

Can't make that one... anything good A or AA on friday in the NW suburbs?

[ditka3001]

Alright, I am completely baffled by Edwardsville continually being ranked in the top 25. I must be missing something because whenever they race against any school not from Missouri or Southern IL they get destroyed. The came in 10th just over a week ago at Peoria losing to Hinsdale South and Crystal Lake South. Davis is a good individual and all, but this is not a top 25 team. You've got to help me out with this. DGN just won an invite against some decent competition and they don't get any love, but Edwardsville can come in 10th at Peoria and still get ranked?

[zatopek1953]

Lets see, how do I put this- who gives a "rats-A" about this Illinoisprep rankings. It means absolutely nothing, period. Its just like any other ranking system out there in sports. People supposedly ducking competition to cushion their ranking is LUDICROUS!!! because the rankings dont determine A THING. Thats why coaches have the option of going to this invitational or that invitational- ITS CALL CHOICE. If teams race fully loaded judge their performance by that, if they choose not to race loaded, there is nothing to judge. Hey it might come back to haunt those coaches about certain decision they make and they alone have to deal with the consequences of that- just ask the coach at the Univesity of Wisconsin. But for some arrogant, no nothing about coaching strategy and decision making, morons to talk about "integrity" of the sport is beyond my comprehension. What a bunch of pansies.

[ILRun1]

Lets see, how do I put this- who gives a "rats-A" about this Illinoisprep rankings. It means absolutely nothing, period. Its just like any other ranking system out there in sports. People supposedly ducking competition to cushion their ranking is LUDICROUS!!! because the rankings dont determine A THING. Thats why coaches have the option of going to this invitational or that invitational- ITS CALL CHOICE. If teams race fully loaded judge their performance by that, if they choose not to race loaded, there is nothing to judge. Hey it might come back to haunt those coaches about certain decision they make and they alone have to deal with the consequences of that- just ask the coach at the Univesity of Wisconsin. But for some arrogant, no nothing about coaching strategy and decision making, morons to talk about "integrity" of the sport is beyond my comprehension. What a bunch of pansies.

Tell us how you really feel. ;)

[Ace-Tres]

Frankly, WWS should have won the meet with or without Popejoy. This is a down year for the DGN.

True that, what has DGS done that makes them deserving off their ranking?

[PreLikedBeer]

Yeah man DGS needed to drop it badly, i havent seen results for them in a loooong time.

[ditka3001]

I made a post about DGS a week or two ago. I was expecting them to get exposed at West Aurora, but, surprise, they didn't run. I'll be willing to bet that they don't make state. IPTT's rankings have a few major flaws, and DGS and Edwardsville are the two biggest as far as teams go.

[Ace-Tres]

I made a post about DGS a week or two ago. I was expecting them to get exposed at West Aurora, but, surprise, they didn't run. I'll be willing to bet that they don't make state. IPTT's rankings have a few major flaws, and DGS and Edwardsville are the two biggest as far as teams go.

Word, teams like Naperville Central and DGS probably won't make state because of the sectional they are in.

[Mr. Powers]

1 Ulrey did not beat Davis, it was Bradford
2 What has Chenoweth done and who has he beaten?
3 Who has Rygh beaten?

[Ace-Tres]

1 Ulrey did not beat Davis, it was Bradford
2 What has Chenoweth done and who has he beaten?
3 Who has Rygh beaten?

Rygh won the Sterling invite over Chenoworth. Rygh was like 15:02 and looked very strong.

[ditka3001]

Word, teams like Naperville Central and DGS probably won't make state because of the sectional they are in.

Add DGN to that list. Which sucks because seeing a team like Metamora have 5 guys run over 17 minutes at state while solid teams are left watching because of the ridiculous section assignments is such garbage.

[tubbyontherun28]

Add DGN to that list. Which sucks because seeing a team like Metamora have 5 guys run over 17 minutes at state while solid teams are left watching because of the ridiculous section assignments is such garbage.

wow i really shouldnt get started on the hinsdale regional/bremen sectional... but lets just say when you've got 9 ranked teams in the state going to the same place... w/ 7 of those in the same regional... its sad to think of those 4 teams, plus even others that would be state-worthy in any logical sectional assignment, are gonna be on the sidelines. that, or cheering on their top 1 and maybe 2 guys at the state meet.

[20inchrimz]

umm chenoweth lost to stevens by only a 2nd

[illinoisprepster]

Lets see, how do I put this- who gives a "rats-A" about this Illinoisprep rankings. It means absolutely nothing, period. Its just like any other ranking system out there in sports. People supposedly ducking competition to cushion their ranking is LUDICROUS!!! because the rankings dont determine A THING. Thats why coaches have the option of going to this invitational or that invitational- ITS CALL CHOICE. If teams race fully loaded judge their performance by that, if they choose not to race loaded, there is nothing to judge. Hey it might come back to haunt those coaches about certain decision they make and they alone have to deal with the consequences of that- just ask the coach at the Univesity of Wisconsin. But for some arrogant, no nothing about coaching strategy and decision making, morons to talk about "integrity" of the sport is beyond my comprehension. What a bunch of pansies.

Let's see... you are grown up parent and/or supporter from LWE (spell it out) who has been bitter this whole year. Chill out Will. You are right though, rankings don't mean anything in the end. It's just a measuring stick anyway. For the most part the teams that are ranked have kept up their end.

[illinoisprepster]

True that, what has DGS done that makes them deserving off their ranking?

They keep winning and placing well. Look at their stats. Pull em up if you like. No one has made them a top 5 team or trophy contender yet. The truth on most teams will be exposed this weekend as they battle each other. We will see who is worthy and who isn't. October is the best time of the year for xc.

[Mr. Powers]

umm chenoweth lost to stevens by only a 2nd
ya but who has he beaten?

[illinoisprepster]

But for some arrogant, no nothing about coaching strategy and decision making, morons to talk about "integrity" of the sport is beyond my comprehension. What a bunch of pansies.

I might know more about coaching than you think so watch what you say.

[20inchrimz]

ya but who has he beaten?
he beat ur moms ***** up pretty bad last night but thats all that i know of.

[Mr. Powers]

he beat ur moms ***** up pretty bad last night but thats all that i know of.
quiet dashiki

[Zoso]

Lets see, how do I put this- who gives a "rats-A" about this Illinoisprep rankings. It means absolutely nothing, period. Its just like any other ranking system out there in sports. People supposedly ducking competition to cushion their ranking is LUDICROUS!!! because the rankings dont determine A THING. Thats why coaches have the option of going to this invitational or that invitational- ITS CALL CHOICE. If teams race fully loaded judge their performance by that, if they choose not to race loaded, there is nothing to judge. Hey it might come back to haunt those coaches about certain decision they make and they alone have to deal with the consequences of that- just ask the coach at the Univesity of Wisconsin. But for some arrogant, no nothing about coaching strategy and decision making, morons to talk about "integrity" of the sport is beyond my comprehension. What a bunch of pansies.

If that's how you feel about meaningless rankings then why are you even on Dyestat? That's what this website is for; making prediction, talking about who's hot and who isn't. It's discussion based on opinion - and it's meaningless. Doesn't mean it's not fun.

You should be thanking IPTT for their rankings instead of being so negative about them. Questionable rankings are better than no rankings at all.

[ditka3001]

They keep winning and placing well. Look at their stats. Pull em up if you like. No one has made them a top 5 team or trophy contender yet. The truth on most teams will be exposed this weekend as they battle each other. We will see who is worthy and who isn't. October is the best time of the year for xc.

They have not earned their ranking. They had a decent showing in week one and have not run in a competitive meet since. Can you also attempt to justify Edwardsville's ranking for me.

[goin4-1337]

Frankly, WWS should have won the meet with or without Popejoy. This is a down year for the DGN.
2005
1 1 Downers Grove North Luke Ryan (Jr) 0:14:52.9
12 12 Downers Grove North Michael Gilmartin (Sr) 0:15:54.1
14 14 Downers Grove North Sergio Borjon (Sr) 0:15:55.1
17 17 Downers Grove North Aaron Silver (So) 0:15:57.8
32 32 Downers Grove North Alan Graves (Jr) 0:16:23.1

vs.

2004
3 3 Downers Grove North Luke Ryan (So) 0:15:26.6
11 11 Downers Grove North Edward Barron (Sr) 0:15:47.6
12 12 Downers Grove North Mark Zycinski (Sr) 0:15:54.0
21 21 Downers Grove North Sergio Borjon (Jr) 0:16:11.2
26 26 Downers Grove North Michael Gilmartin (Jr) 0:16:16.2

hmmm...down year or your just overlooking them
seems pretty comparable to me

[Jgerst515]

NO not anymore the south side wanted to move it. So it is at 136th and harlem at a place called Turtle head lake.
I despise Turtle Head Lake.

[CornCob Pipe]

wow i really shouldnt get started on the hinsdale regional/bremen sectional... but lets just say when you've got 9 ranked teams in the state going to the same place... w/ 7 of those in the same regional... its sad to think of those 4 teams, plus even others that would be state-worthy in any logical sectional assignment, are gonna be on the sidelines. that, or cheering on their top 1 and maybe 2 guys at the state meet.

didnt ihsa give the suburbs another sectional a few years ago because u all cried so much? how hard is it to understand that it would make even less sense to send a team from central/southern illinois to a sectional in chicago and a chicago team down to e. peoria or the other downstate sectional. if the ihsa did that, then all of you would be bitching about the drive down there.

[ditka3001]

2005
1 1 Downers Grove North Luke Ryan (Jr) 0:14:52.9
12 12 Downers Grove North Michael Gilmartin (Sr) 0:15:54.1
14 14 Downers Grove North Sergio Borjon (Sr) 0:15:55.1
17 17 Downers Grove North Aaron Silver (So) 0:15:57.8
32 32 Downers Grove North Alan Graves (Jr) 0:16:23.1

vs.

2004
3 3 Downers Grove North Luke Ryan (So) 0:15:26.6
11 11 Downers Grove North Edward Barron (Sr) 0:15:47.6
12 12 Downers Grove North Mark Zycinski (Sr) 0:15:54.0
21 21 Downers Grove North Sergio Borjon (Jr) 0:16:11.2
26 26 Downers Grove North Michael Gilmartin (Jr) 0:16:16.2

hmmm...down year or your just overlooking them
seems pretty comparable to me

With all due respect to this year's DGN team, last year was a lot stronger. They're still a top 25 team, and have been overlooked but the reason the stats are so similar is because a couple of the better teams that were at that meet last year weren't there this year.

[goin4-1337]

With all due respect to this year's DGN team, last year was a lot stronger. They're still a top 25 team, and have been overlooked but the reason the stats are so similar is because a couple of the better teams that were at that meet last year weren't there this year.
ignore the places and focus on the times, in a dual meet dgn 2004 would win 26-29, thats a pretty close margin

[ditka3001]

The difference was last year they had 3 guys who could be their number 1 on any given day. This year, the gap between 1 and 2 has hurt them in some of the bigger meets, which is why they're unranked. You do raise a really good point though.

[OnePoint]

also that fact that barron's time at that meet (west aurora) wasnt very good last year...he was actually better than luke, or they were right together, for most meets, so put him up w/ luke, and then zycinski was a 15:30-35 man on a good day, and borjon could break 16...so really if u consider the fact that as a team this year the west aurora meet were the best overall times we ran, and last year the times weren't so special....we were MUCH stronger last year

[idontgetit14]

didnt ihsa give the suburbs another sectional a few years ago because u all cried so much? how hard is it to understand that it would make even less sense to send a team from central/southern illinois to a sectional in chicago and a chicago team down to e. peoria or the other downstate sectional. if the ihsa did that, then all of you would be bitching about the drive down there.

HELL NO>.... i would not mind the drive down to Peoria or another plce 3 hours away if it ment getting to go to state. That Hinsdale Regional and Bremen Sectional are F*ing ridiculous. It's insane. So many good individuals and good teams aren't gona make it b/c IHSA is retarded and doesn't know how to assign more fair regionals and sectionals. This is bull and i dont see it changing in the next few years.

[CornCob Pipe]

HELL NO>.... i would not mind the drive down to Peoria or another plce 3 hours away if it ment getting to go to state. That Hinsdale Regional and Bremen Sectional are F*ing ridiculous. It's insane. So many good individuals and good teams aren't gona make it b/c IHSA is retarded and doesn't know how to assign more fair regionals and sectionals. This is bull and i dont see it changing in the next few years.

you say that now, but a few years after they would change that, everyone would start complaining. just like what happened when an extra suburban sectional was added. pple were somewhat happy for a little while and now every1 complains again

[goin4-1337]

also that fact that barron's time at that meet (west aurora) wasnt very good last year...he was actually better than luke, or they were right together, for most meets, so put him up w/ luke, and then zycinski was a 15:30-35 man on a good day, and borjon could break 16...so really if u consider the fact that as a team this year the west aurora meet were the best overall times we ran, and last year the times weren't so special....we were MUCH stronger last year
i believe u but it's still garbage when they're saying you guys are on a down year, still a really solid team

[roller coaster]

HELL NO>.... i would not mind the drive down to Peoria or another plce 3 hours away if it ment getting to go to state. That Hinsdale Regional and Bremen Sectional are F*ing ridiculous. It's insane. So many good individuals and good teams aren't gona make it b/c IHSA is retarded and doesn't know how to assign more fair regionals and sectionals. This is bull and i dont see it changing in the next few years.

You have to remember that the IHSA's purpose is to get a geographical representation of the whole state at the state finals. It is not to get the best teams or individuals there. Otherwise they would seed the regionals & sectionals. I think they should try to assemble the best field possible, but they don't.

[idontgetit14]

You have to remember that the IHSA's purpose is to get a geographical representation of the whole state at the state finals. It is not to get the best teams or individuals there. Otherwise they would seed the regionals & sectionals. I think they should try to assemble the best field possible, but they don't.

They really do need to get the best teams there. Not the best geographical representation of the whole state. They need to seed it like they do for football. Does anyone else hate how much attention, money, and everything they get special just b/c it's football?? I get so sick of it.

[daman]

I'm sort of surprised DGN isn't top 25. Nap Central is ranked 20th, but even with all their guys running varsity last Saturday, I don't think they would've beaten DGN.

[daman]

You have to remember that the IHSA's purpose is to get a geographical representation of the whole state at the state finals. It is not to get the best teams or individuals there. Otherwise they would seed the regionals & sectionals. I think they should try to assemble the best field possible, but they don't.They already have geo-represent, so why not balance out the sectionals up north a little more? Niles has York and GBS and no one else up there.

[roller coaster]

They already have geo-represent, so why not balance out the sectionals up north a little more? Niles has York and GBS and no one else up there.

I agree with you. I would love to see the northern sectionals seeded. I am not in favor of the geographic represenattion idea, I was just stating it as fact.

[daman]

I agree with you. I would love to see the northern sectionals seeded. I am not in favor of the geographic represenattion idea, I was just stating it as fact.Surprisingly, I do like to see geo-represent somewhat, I wish more south teams were better, but it's good for the whole state to have teams from all over. In the north, it's the price you pay for being up here, but yeah, that's why they should be more careful, to at least make sure the best teams from this area get there.

[xcviking07]

i think rock island could beat edwardsville and i think edwardsville is pretty comparable to loyola.

[Ace-Tres]

They already have geo-represent, so why not balance out the sectionals up north a little more? Niles has York and GBS and no one else up there.

Yeah, but how did they know who would be good this year? Next year that sectional could be completely stacked, no one knows for sure.

[Ace-Tres]

With all due respect to this year's DGN team, last year was a lot stronger. They're still a top 25 team, and have been overlooked but the reason the stats are so similar is because a couple of the better teams that were at that meet last year weren't there this year.

Very true, and Kupisch must not have run that race or something. If you look at the state results from last year you will see that they were a lot better last year than this year.

[Goosepatry]

I find it kinda of amusing that there is such a double standard on this board. On one hand you spend time bashing IPTT rankings for listing teams such as Edwardsville, but then you complain that your teams have too much competition. Look, if you can't finish in the top five of your Sectional, is your team really going to do anything at state anyway? I mean, think about the argument. "If we moved to Bremen or the Edwardsville Sectional, we would make state! I mean our great team that will finish 7th in our super tough Sectional won't get to shine at state!" Come on! Yes, some schools may be more deserving then others, but, if you can't finish in the top five of your sectional, what are you really going to prove at state?

Also, let's look at the world of Southern Illinois. Last year no one down south could touch O'Fallon. They kicked butt all over the southern half of the state. This year Edwardsville seems to be the team to beat. During the years you complain that the token Southern Illinois Team cracks the top 25 rankings, but do you realize the advantage your team has running in Chicago? Do you think if you take any of your teams with their great coaches and moved just one of them to our part of the state that they would be near as good as they are now? You have quality competition at every fricking meet you go to. There are always quality teams. Always quality individuals. Always quality competition. Tell me, where does that consistantly occur in the South? "Oh, that is what O'Fallon should do." "Yeah, but look at that weak competition Edwardsville just beat!" "Chatham Glenwood should win that meet, it sucked!" These are all example responses to almost every single Southern Illinois results threads I have read.

If I'm going to post that my team is the best or deserves to go to state, then damnit, go out and beat the best! Don't complain about the sectional assignments. Athletics always go in cycles. Who is to say that someday people from the Bremen Sectional may not be complaining about the other weak suburban sectionals? Tell me how to do this without changing things on an annual basis! In the mean time, be glad of that competition you are crying about. Competing against those teams day in and day out is what really helps you to run well and improve. If I'm wrong, go run a bunch of dual meets against middle schools and see how you do in Peoria in November!

Although I disagree with this option, the only logical way to fix your complaints is to copy what is done in Division II colleges. Look how each sectional performs at State and increase the number of teams from powerful Sectionals while taking away team bids (reducing from five) from the weaker Sectionals. This will eliminate travel, buses, and complaining from all those great teams that can not finish in the top five of your Sectionals, yet know you would bring home a team trophy if you qualified for state!

[tubbyontherun28]

Don't complain about the sectional assignments. Athletics always go in cycles. Who is to say that someday people from the Bremen Sectional may not be complaining about the other weak suburban sectionals? Tell me how to do this without changing things on an annual basis!

that's the thing... it would be nice if they DIDNT change it on an annual basis. the hinsdale regional (formerly the lockport regional) had different teams and a different course last year. i wouldnt say anything against the assignments if they stayed the same year to year. that way, every team would know exactly what they were getting into from day 1. but when the assignments came out this year, they were a quite different. the change came from the addition of pavement at dellwood park making it a questionable regional location, so it got moved to hinsdale. apparently this warranted a change in the team lineups. so if the IHSA knows they have to make changes to a regional/sectional, it would seem like more thought should go into it. there is a definite inequality in the teams, but there always has been. if IHSA just maintained the same balance, nobody could say they were surprised. but all they did was widen the gap... which could have been easily avoided, and it's now a scenario that WILL dillute the competition at the state meet.

[DirtyD]

Perhaps a committee could go over the past few years, and guesstimate about many top 15-25 place teams don't make it to state, and get some at-large bids for school. NCAA's surely has a few teams that are less deserving than others to be there, but At-Large bids seem to fix that, why not give it a shot.

[ditka3001]

I find it kinda of amusing that there is such a double standard on this board. On one hand you spend time bashing IPTT rankings for listing teams such as Edwardsville, but then you complain that your teams have too much competition. Look, if you can't finish in the top five of your Sectional, is your team really going to do anything at state anyway? I mean, think about the argument. "If we moved to Bremen or the Edwardsville Sectional, we would make state! I mean our great team that will finish 7th in our super tough Sectional won't get to shine at state!" Come on! Yes, some schools may be more deserving then others, but, if you can't finish in the top five of your sectional, what are you really going to prove at state?

Also, let's look at the world of Southern Illinois. Last year no one down south could touch O'Fallon. They kicked butt all over the southern half of the state. This year Edwardsville seems to be the team to beat. During the years you complain that the token Southern Illinois Team cracks the top 25 rankings, but do you realize the advantage your team has running in Chicago? Do you think if you take any of your teams with their great coaches and moved just one of them to our part of the state that they would be near as good as they are now? You have quality competition at every fricking meet you go to. There are always quality teams. Always quality individuals. Always quality competition. Tell me, where does that consistantly occur in the South? "Oh, that is what O'Fallon should do." "Yeah, but look at that weak competition Edwardsville just beat!" "Chatham Glenwood should win that meet, it sucked!" These are all example responses to almost every single Southern Illinois results threads I have read.

If I'm going to post that my team is the best or deserves to go to state, then damnit, go out and beat the best! Don't complain about the sectional assignments. Athletics always go in cycles. Who is to say that someday people from the Bremen Sectional may not be complaining about the other weak suburban sectionals? Tell me how to do this without changing things on an annual basis! In the mean time, be glad of that competition you are crying about. Competing against those teams day in and day out is what really helps you to run well and improve. If I'm wrong, go run a bunch of dual meets against middle schools and see how you do in Peoria in November!

Although I disagree with this option, the only logical way to fix your complaints is to copy what is done in Division II colleges. Look how each sectional performs at State and increase the number of teams from powerful Sectionals while taking away team bids (reducing from five) from the weaker Sectionals. This will eliminate travel, buses, and complaining from all those great teams that can not finish in the top five of your Sectionals, yet know you would bring home a team trophy if you qualified for state!

You are missing the point. Rankings aside, the whole point of a state championship should be for the 30 best cross country teams to race each other. Running at state is the greatest experience a high school runner in Illinois can have. It's something special that should go to the ones who deserve it. I bet the 2 or 3 deserving teams from the Bremen section that don't get in would jump at the chance to make the three or four hour drive down to southern illinois to run in a section where they could finish in the top 5. With schools from the south sending teams that only have 2 runners that can run sub 17, you are setting those teams up to be embarassed at state, and you are leaving deserving runners and coaches who have been working since June on the outside because they got crammed in a sectional with 7 of the top 25 teams in the state. It's not fair to either side and it needs to be changed.

[zatopek1953]

Goosepatry,

You act as if IPTT is some sort of an "offical authority" on how good teams are by ranking them - IT DOESN'T MATTER!! As far as Edwardsville is concerned, why are you putting your team in this situation. You're not that good at the state level and it would be wise for you to stop getting so caught up in this message board, just worry about coaching!

[run2win]

Perhaps a committee could go over the past few years, and guesstimate about many top 15-25 place teams don't make it to state, and get some at-large bids for school. NCAA's surely has a few teams that are less deserving than others to be there, but At-Large bids seem to fix that, why not give it a shot.


good idea, as long as it only applies from sectionals to state and not regionals to sectionals. I think that 5 at large bids would be fair, bringing the # of teams to 35. Also if an individual qualifes on his/her own and their team is selected as an at large, that spot remains vacent (i.e no bumping of non qualifying individuals after the sectional)

[illinoisprepster]

You are missing the point. Rankings aside, the whole point of a state championship should be for the 30 best cross country teams to race each other. Running at state is the greatest experience a high school runner in Illinois can have. It's something special that should go to the ones who deserve it. I bet the 2 or 3 deserving teams from the Bremen section that don't get in would jump at the chance to make the three or four hour drive down to southern illinois to run in a section where they could finish in the top 5. With schools from the south sending teams that only have 2 runners that can run sub 17, you are setting those teams up to be embarassed at state, and you are leaving deserving runners and coaches who have been working since June on the outside because they got crammed in a sectional with 7 of the top 25 teams in the state. It's not fair to either side and it needs to be changed.

I think high school sports are about inclusion to an extent. I think that's why they have teams from every part of the state compete. It happens with every sport in every state. It makes the sport more compelling. Really, the true champion is judge on that day anyway.

[illinoisprepster]

Goosepatry,

You act as if IPTT is some sort of an "offical authority" on how good teams are by ranking them - IT DOESN'T MATTER!! As far as Edwardsville is concerned, why are you putting your team in this situation. You're not that good at the state level and it would be wise for you to stop getting so caught up in this message board, just worry about coaching!

I've been biting my tongue too long. You are a bitter dude and you are sad. Grow up. No one ever said we are the official authority. We are here to enhance the sport and that's what we do. Honestly, I can take the criticism easier than the praise. Now, for the all the nonsense you present I got facts. Rankings are fun and rankings to an extent are real. We know who is #1 and we know who isn't. We are all ranked in life too.

Edwardsville has earned its keep over recent years and will once again represent what's right with the sport in both its boys and girls program. They are a very respected program that produced a recent state champion and state meet scorers in track and xc.

[daman]

I find it kinda of amusing that there is such a double standard on this board. Then laugh. dammit!!!!

During the years you complain that the token Southern Illinois Team cracks the top 25 rankings, but do you realize the advantage your team has running in Chicago? Do you think if you take any of your teams with their great coaches and moved just one of them to our part of the state that they would be near as good as they are now? You have quality competition at every fricking meet you go to. There are always quality teams. Always quality individuals. Always quality competition. Tell me, where does that consistantly occur in the South? "Oh, that is what O'Fallon should do." "Yeah, but look at that weak competition Edwardsville just beat!" "Chatham Glenwood should win that meet, it sucked!" These are all example responses to almost every single Southern Illinois results threads I have read. I thought we had the better teams because we are genetically superior :D

If I'm wrong, go run a bunch of dual meets against middle schools I tried that, and got arrested.

[daman]

that's the thing... it would be nice if they DIDNT change it on an annual basis. Yeah, it did seem like over the last couple of years, the sectionals seemed pretty balanced, now they changed.

[daman]

I find it kinda of amusing that there is such a double standard on this board. On one hand you spend time bashing IPTT rankings for listing teams such as Edwardsville, but then you complain that your teams have too much competition. Look, if you can't finish in the top five of your Sectional, is your team really going to do anything at state anyway? I mean, think about the argument. "If we moved to Bremen or the Edwardsville Sectional, we would make state! I mean our great team that will finish 7th in our super tough Sectional won't get to shine at state!" Come on! Yes, some schools may be more deserving then others, but, if you can't finish in the top five of your sectional, what are you really going to prove at state?

Also, let's look at the world of Southern Illinois. Last year no one down south could touch O'Fallon. They kicked butt all over the southern half of the state. This year Edwardsville seems to be the team to beat. During the years you complain that the token Southern Illinois Team cracks the top 25 rankings, but do you realize the advantage your team has running in Chicago? Do you think if you take any of your teams with their great coaches and moved just one of them to our part of the state that they would be near as good as they are now? You have quality competition at every fricking meet you go to. There are always quality teams. Always quality individuals. Always quality competition. Tell me, where does that consistantly occur in the South? "Oh, that is what O'Fallon should do." "Yeah, but look at that weak competition Edwardsville just beat!" "Chatham Glenwood should win that meet, it sucked!" These are all example responses to almost every single Southern Illinois results threads I have read.

If I'm going to post that my team is the best or deserves to go to state, then damnit, go out and beat the best! Don't complain about the sectional assignments. Athletics always go in cycles. Who is to say that someday people from the Bremen Sectional may not be complaining about the other weak suburban sectionals? Tell me how to do this without changing things on an annual basis! In the mean time, be glad of that competition you are crying about. Competing against those teams day in and day out is what really helps you to run well and improve. If I'm wrong, go run a bunch of dual meets against middle schools and see how you do in Peoria in November!

Although I disagree with this option, the only logical way to fix your complaints is to copy what is done in Division II colleges. Look how each sectional performs at State and increase the number of teams from powerful Sectionals while taking away team bids (reducing from five) from the weaker Sectionals. This will eliminate travel, buses, and complaining from all those great teams that can not finish in the top five of your Sectionals, yet know you would bring home a team trophy if you qualified for state!I'm just messin' with you. But really, sectionals are one thing and can be tough or weak depending on the year, but in this case, there will be good teams that will not even make it out of regionals, and that's really something that could be addressed, there are so many regionals, at least make THOSE balanced.

[firefox]

I don't think that these polls will in any way hold up till the state meet some of these teams are gonna choke, other teams are gonna hammer; and the results are gonna suprise some of us.

[Tall-n-Thin]

22) Brandon Murphy (Sr.) (Oak Park-River Forest)

there is a typo there, it should be Brendan Murphy. You should also on the ranking make a difference between WSC silver and gold.

WSC silver will be at Schiller Woods. I hate our home course. We have three meets there in a row. It started with a duel meet then we have conference then we have regionals. We also had another duel there and an invite.

[zatopek1953]

I've been biting my tongue too long. You are a bitter dude and you are sad. Grow up. No one ever said we are the official authority. We are here to enhance the sport and that's what we do. Honestly, I can take the criticism easier than the praise. Now, for the all the nonsense you present I got facts. Rankings are fun and rankings to an extent are real. We know who is #1 and we know who isn't. We are all ranked in life too.

Edwardsville has earned its keep over recent years and will once again represent what's right with the sport in both its boys and girls program. They are a very respected program that produced a recent state champion and state meet scorers in track and xc.

BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH
What's your ranking in life? I really thought you were more intelligent than that but your post puts that in question. By your logic, the fact that Edwardsville has done respectible in the past, warrants them the recognition now. Facts? - they have Davis who is not proved himself at the state level, then what., they dominate very week Southern Illinois then what., they dont deserve a Top 25 ranking. If they dared come run a sectional up here, they wouldn't make it down state at all.

[wiurecrunner]

BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH
What's your ranking in life? I really thought you were more intelligent than that but your post puts that in question. By your logic, the fact that Edwardsville has done respectible in the past, warrants them the recognition now. Facts? - they have Davis who is not proved himself at the state level, then what., they dominate very week Southern Illinois then what., they dont deserve a Top 25 ranking. If they dared come run a sectional up here, they wouldn't make it down state at all.

But they don't, they run down south. And they will go to state, and will most likely finish in the top 25. The complaining about the best teams going to state is completely idealistic and doesn't happen in ANY sport. There's always regional representation to some point. NTN does the same thing. 2 teams from each region and then some at large bids. Are there teams that don't go from some regions that are better than a weaker regions 1 or 2? Most likely, but that's life. It happens in pro sports too. Are the 8 teams that go to the playoffs in baseball the best 8 teams? Probably not. One of the teams that was left out in either the American or National league is probably better than one of the other teams. It happens, it's the way the system works.

[run2win]

But they don't, they run down south. And they will go to state, and will most likely finish in the top 25. The complaining about the best teams going to state is completely idealistic and doesn't happen in ANY sport. There's always regional representation to some point. NTN does the same thing. 2 teams from each region and then some at large bids. Are there teams that don't go from some regions that are better than a weaker regions 1 or 2? Most likely, but that's life. It happens in pro sports too. Are the 8 teams that go to the playoffs in baseball the best 8 teams? Probably not. One of the teams that was left out in either the American or National league is probably better than one of the other teams. It happens, it's the way the system works.

a perfect case of this is the NBA from 2 years ago. Look at the standings from that year to see how uneven it really was.

EAST
1 z-Indiana 61 21 .744
2 y-New Jersey 47 35 .573
3 x-Detroit 54 28 .659
4 x-Miami 42 40 .512
5 x-New Orleans 41 41 .500
6 x-Milwaukee 41 41 .500
7 x-New York 39 43 .476
8 x-Boston 36 46 .439

WEST
1 z-Minnesota 58 24 .707
2 y-LA Lakers 56 26 .683
3 x-San Antonio 57 25 .695
4 x-Sacramento 55 27 .671
5 x-Dallas 52 30 .634
6 x-Memphis 50 32 .610
7 x-Houston 45 37 .549
8 x-Denver 43 39 .524
9 Utah 42 40 .512
10 Portland 41 41 .500
11 Golden State 37 45 .451
12 Seattle 37 45 .451

Only 3 teams from the east would have made the playoffs in the west, a team that didnt even make the playoffs in the west (utah) would have had homecourt advantage in the east, and 4 teams that didnt make the western playoffs would have been in the East. An actual example of the hypothetical situation we have been discussing here.

[KCSPEED]

BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH
What's your ranking in life? I really thought you were more intelligent than that but your post puts that in question. By your logic, the fact that Edwardsville has done respectible in the past, warrants them the recognition now. Facts? - they have Davis who is not proved himself at the state level, then what., they dominate very week Southern Illinois then what., they dont deserve a Top 25 ranking. If they dared come run a sectional up here, they wouldn't make it down state at all.

It wouldn't look good not to have a Southern Team in the rankings.

I think the poll should go back to a coaches poll any way. May coaches can see a lot more teams. For example, this past week the Wheaton Warrenville South girls team looked awesome at West Aurora but no one saw this who does the polls. Teams didn't really move up and down on the polls this week because coaches didn't vote. Some teams are really starting to peak and you didn't see this in the polls.

Why don't the polls go all the way to the state meet like other polls.

[tubbyontherun28]

yes, IPTT is no official authority... but im with prepster, they never claimed to be. they go through a lot of work to provide us with these rankings... and we can take them as we please. they're just educated predictions, nothing more. i wouldnt cry about edwardsville being on the list, seeing as having their team on that list factors in absolutely zero in how they will perform at state. there are always going to be varying opinions and biases as to which teams deserve to be in the top 25, as evidenced by this new dyestat poll that ditka is doing a fine job of running. IPTT is just one more prediction, based on a lot of comprehensive anaylsis. nobody is passing it off as fact. i would say if every time they release a list of 25 teams that there are only one or two major complaints, they are doing a pretty thorough job overall.

[Mr. Powers]

1) why is Ulgay still over Hatch?
2) why is krapf 5h and Feldhake 10th? they were 1 second apart
3)Ryan Bishop should be added to class a top 20. he just ran 1550 last night on my course
4 Why no Shimp?

[daman]

22) Brandon Murphy (Sr.) (Oak Park-River Forest)

there is a typo there, it should be Brendan Murphy. You should also on the ranking make a difference between WSC silver and gold.

WSC silver will be at Schiller Woods. I hate our home course. We have three meets there in a row. It started with a duel meet then we have conference then we have regionals. We also had another duel there and an invite.Why do you guys run way over there? It's nowhere near OPRF. Why don't they run at Miller Meadows?

[Jgerst515]

Schiller Woods isn't far at all from OPRF.

[daman]

It's a good 5 or 6 miles away. It's closer to the airport than it is to the school. Our course was at the school grounds, so maybe my perspective is different.

[KCSPEED]

I'm just messin' with you. But really, sectionals are one thing and can be tough or weak depending on the year, but in this case, there will be good teams that will not even make it out of regionals, and that's really something that could be addressed, there are so many regionals, at least make THOSE balanced.

Maybe some good teams will not make it out of Sectionals but all the good teams will make it out of regionals or they are not good. The regionals are too watered down now for good teams not to make it out.

[Zoso]

Even the Hinsdale regional?

[daman]

Even the Hinsdale regional?And that was the point. Sometimes, the sectional strength can't be forcasted, but there's no reason for that regional to be so loaded.

[daman]

Maybe some good teams will not make it out of Sectionals but all the good teams will make it out of regionals or they are not good. The regionals are too watered down now for good teams not to make it out.

Hinsdale Regional, teams and rank:

Bolingbrook
Darien (Hinsdale South)
Downers Grove (North) unranked, but no doubt top 25 team.
Downers Grove (South) #12
Hinsdale (Central)
Lemont (H.S.)
Lisle (Benet Academy) #18
Lockport (Twp.) #16
Naperville (Central) #19
Naperville (Neuqua Valley) #10
Naperville (North) #7
Romeoville (H.S.)

[KCSPEED]

Hinsdale Regional, teams and rank:

Bolingbrook
Darien (Hinsdale South)
Downers Grove (North) unranked, but no doubt top 25 team.
Downers Grove (South) #12
Hinsdale (Central)
Lemont (H.S.)
Lisle (Benet Academy) #18
Lockport (Twp.) #16
Naperville (Central) #19
Naperville (Neuqua Valley) #10
Naperville (North) #7
Romeoville (H.S.)

OK, I stand corrected. I missed that one. But regionals will have teams from that area placed in it. Not unless we want to be like football and move teams all around the state. This would be a ton of gas money because you're dealing many more teams driving around the state than football.

Bottom line is the top 10 teams in the state will make it to Peoria.

[ditka3001]

OK, I stand corrected. I missed that one. But regionals will have teams from that area placed in it. Not unless we want to be like football and move teams all around the state. This would be a ton of gas money because you're dealing many more teams driving around the state than football.

Bottom line is the top 10 teams in the state will make it to Peoria.

Dude, are you actually using the price of gas as an excuse for these absurd regional/sectional assignments??

[illinoisprepster]

yes, IPTT is no official authority... but im with prepster, they never claimed to be. they go through a lot of work to provide us with these rankings... and we can take them as we please. they're just educated predictions, nothing more. i wouldnt cry about edwardsville being on the list, seeing as having their team on that list factors in absolutely zero in how they will perform at state. there are always going to be varying opinions and biases as to which teams deserve to be in the top 25, as evidenced by this new dyestat poll that ditka is doing a fine job of running. IPTT is just one more prediction, based on a lot of comprehensive anaylsis. nobody is passing it off as fact. i would say if every time they release a list of 25 teams that there are only one or two major complaints, they are doing a pretty thorough job overall.

Thanks!... what's an authority? None exists. We are here to report the news and keep the sport visible. That's all.

[illinoisprepster]

It wouldn't look good not to have a Southern Team in the rankings.

I think the poll should go back to a coaches poll any way. May coaches can see a lot more teams. For example, this past week the Wheaton Warrenville South girls team looked awesome at West Aurora but no one saw this who does the polls. Teams didn't really move up and down on the polls this week because coaches didn't vote. Some teams are really starting to peak and you didn't see this in the polls.

Why don't the polls go all the way to the state meet like other polls.

No offense to the coaches poll the new way is better. One, there were never any reps south of I-80 on the poll and the pollsters didn't seem to have time to do extensive research. In reality, why should they. College pollsters are media and coaches. The coaches there are mostly full time coaches unlike in high school. I couldn't expect coaches from Chicagoland find info on Rock Island or Edwardsville or even E. Peoria. There is good running outside of Chicagoland.

[KCSPEED]

Dude, are you actually using the price of gas as an excuse for these absurd regional/sectional assignments??


You have one regional with more than 5 ranked teams and all the assignments are absurd. I don't think so. The job of the state series is to find a state champ. The state CC tournament does more than that, it gets at least the top 5. No other sport in Illinois does that. NONE!

[KCSPEED]

No offense to the coaches poll the new way is better. One, there were never any reps south of I-80 on the poll and the pollsters didn't seem to have time to do extensive research. In reality, why should they. College pollsters are media and coaches. The coaches there are mostly full time coaches unlike in high school. I couldn't expect coaches from Chicagoland find info on Rock Island or Edwardsville or even E. Peoria. There is good running outside of Chicagoland.

Yes, but with the new poll how many teams are from south of I-80. And in college the media is from all areas of the country. The coaches poll had more people see more meets and they could tell when teams started to peak and run better. The poll now can't do this.

[ditka3001]

You have one regional with more than 5 ranked teams and all the assignments are absurd. I don't think so. The job of the state series is to find a state champ. The state CC tournament does more than that, it gets at least the top 5. No other sport in Illinois does that. NONE!

You should try to explain this to the kids from the Hinsdale regional who don't make it to sectionals, and have to watch Metamora run 5 guys over 17 minutes and embarass themselves at Detweiler.

[Johnny Cash]

... and have to watch Metamora run 5 guys over 17 minutes and embarass themselves at Detweiler.

I know you're trying to make a point, but why call out Metamora like that? Their supersoph TJ isn't going to appreciate that much. Kids a baller! Just SLIGHTLY capable of breaking 17 minutes.

[ditka3001]

I know you're trying to make a point, but why call out Metamora like that? Their supersoph TJ isn't going to appreciate that much. Kids a baller! Just SLIGHTLY capable of breaking 17 minutes.

It happened last year. I'm not calling them out, it's a fact.

[KCSPEED]

You should try to explain this to the kids from the Hinsdale regional who don't make it to sectionals, and have to watch Metamora run 5 guys over 17 minutes and embarass themselves at Detweiler.

What about the teams in basketball, soccer, baseball, softball, and so on who are ranked 2nd in state and never make it to the championship game because they lost to the state champ in the sectional final. These teams don't even get a state trophy. At least in CC the real top 3 teams in the state get a trophy.

[Ace-Tres]

What about the teams in basketball, soccer, baseball, softball, and so on who are ranked 2nd in state and never make the championship because they lost to the state champ in the sectional final.

Yeah, good arguement. Or teams in like the NBA or MLB that may be the best, but will never play each other for the championship.

[Johnny Cash]

It happened last year. I'm not calling them out, it's a fact.

150 114 207 T.J. McMorrow Fr Metamora 16:18.37 5:27
165 129 212 Nate Rauh Sr Metamora 16:24.38 5:29
225 186 210 Scott Perry Jr Metamora 16:53.26 5:38
229 190 208 Bill Miller So Metamora 16:55.36 5:39
245 205 211 Brenton Pfaff So Metamora 17:17.00 5:46
248 208 214 Scott Sabin Sr Metamora 17:22.41 5:48
262 221 205 Jeremy Bell So Metamora 18:21.08 6:08

[Irabazi]

I was surprised to see New Trier as high as 13, but I believe in the coming weeks that that spot with seem to not justify their quality. They have Chas Gillespie who seems to be holding back this year (just look at his history, this guy should be sub-14:30), they have Colin Gazley a solid junior who ran with that team last year, and the rest of the team that looks solid. It remains to be seen how they come out of their regional (i'm not sure which one they're in) but they will get out safely and show themselves as contenders in the sectional hunt. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something no-one ever expected of them this year

[ditka3001]

What about the teams in basketball, soccer, baseball, softball, and so on who are ranked 2nd in state and never make it to the championship game because they lost to the state champ in the sectional final. These teams don't even get a state trophy. At least in CC the real top 3 teams in the state get a trophy.

Cross Country is a rare sport where all the best can compete against each other at once. There aren't soccer games with 30 teams playing at once. Running at Detweiler is an experience that should be reserved for the 30 teams that deserve it, performance is the only thing that should determine who gets to run not external factors like geography and gas prices.

And Johnny Cash, you get my point. I was off by 12 seconds.

[KCSPEED]

Cross Country is a rare sport where all the best can compete against each other at once. There aren't soccer games with 30 teams playing at once. Running at Detweiler is an experience that should be reserved for the 30 teams that deserve it, performance is the only thing that should determine who gets to run not external factors like geography and gas prices.

And Johnny Cash, you get my point. I was off by 12 seconds.

Well if the system was perfect we would not have to have 30 teams in the finals. At least 9 out of the top 10 teams make it to the finals and in most years at least the top 15. This is way better than any other state tournament. What more can you ask for?

[tigercoach]

I'm in now. Ditka and anyone else. Why are you doing all this complaining about the rankings and Regional Sectional Set up.

1. Rankings are rankings. THey don't mean anything. Only the end of the season does at Detweiller. The rankings from IPTT or the Coaches poll have no effect on the IHSA setting up regions or sectionals, and shouldn't. Though some teams are perenially good to a degree, it still varies. The rankings have no bearing on the final standings, and you are wrong calling Tony and Bob out. Call out the dyestate voters then, b/c they have Edwardsville in the Top 25 as well. Why haven't you bashed them. IPTT and ILRunner have only advanced coverage of running in IL. Enhanced, not detracted from. You dont like their coverage, dont read it. Besides, the coaches polls never have taken into account teams in the south. How could you not expect Chatham and O'Fallon (girls) to be where they were last year in the X-C state meet the way they were running. but no one knew about them upstate. What about Shelby Brice a few years ago (12th) Caitlin Chrisman in X-C and track, etc..,etc.. Only the Pife'rs and Hatches get any recognition b/c they are champs, but non-champion all state medalists and quality teams (X-C or track) from down south are ignored. But they wouldn't be if ther was a Batavia, Palatine, or GBS on their jersey and the performances were identical. Would our team (E-ville girls) be ranked as high in either poll for what they're worth (entertainment and debate) if we hadn't run at two Peoria meets? No. We'd be just as good if we never ran in those meets, and we know our ranking will mean didly if we dont run well at state. So who cares.

2. The Regional is just that. You face the teams in your region. Your geographic area. As some have stated, you can't drive all over the state with just two classes to face competition. Besides that would put some teams at a severe disadvantage ($). You aren't going to get the 30 absolute best, but it's pretty darn close.

Did the Padres deserve to be in the playoffs with their 82-80 record. Come on. Just b/c a regional or sectional is loaded b/c of geography how is that the IHSA's fault and it certainly is cyclical to a degree.

Tony, Bob, and Scott have worked to get information from all regions and classes the past few years. The coverage is greatly expanded and improved. You dont have to agree with all their opinions, but those websites are sure nice to have. They're like are own personal dyestat that expose our athletes, coaches, parents, and fans to many different aspects and stories in IL running.

Besides, we sure don't cry having to face E. St. Louis in our track conference ever year and sometimes in our sectional. They've never lost a conference meet since they've been in it, and won 24 sectional titles in a row (dating back to Fennoy's Lincoln days). Did we ask to move to the MVC, our South Seven. No. When they are in our sectional do we request a move, even though we know we'd qualify in other sectionals in certain events. No. We train to run the times. We don't complain, we know that's our cross to bear. We work to get better and closer, and that makes us a better team.

Tiger Coach

[xctrackrnnr]

I was surprised to see New Trier as high as 13, but I believe in the coming weeks that that spot with seem to not justify their quality. They have Chas Gillespie who seems to be holding back this year (just look at his history, this guy should be sub-14:30), they have Colin Gazley a solid junior who ran with that team last year, and the rest of the team that looks solid. It remains to be seen how they come out of their regional (i'm not sure which one they're in) but they will get out safely and show themselves as contenders in the sectional hunt. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something no-one ever expected of them this year

how do you figure Chas Gillespie should be under 14:30???? Think about how many guys from Illinois were better than him and never broke 14:30. That's just a crazy statement.

[run2win]

how do you figure Chas Gillespie should be under 14:30???? Think about how many guys from Illinois were better than him and never broke 14:30. That's just a crazy statement.

just ignore him, he is a crazy noob who doesnt think about what he is saying before he types it.

[notarunner]

No offense to the coaches poll the new way is better. One, there were never any reps south of I-80 on the poll and the pollsters didn't seem to have time to do extensive research. In reality, why should they. College pollsters are media and coaches. The coaches there are mostly full time coaches unlike in high school. I couldn't expect coaches from Chicagoland find info on Rock Island or Edwardsville or even E. Peoria. There is good running outside of Chicagoland.


No there is not. There is very limited team talent within the Chicago city limits and south of Lockport. The most consistent programs are in the Chicago suburbs. Edwardsville will not finish top 20 in state and would not make it to state if they had to qualify through the suburban sectionals.

[notarunner]

150 114 207 T.J. McMorrow Fr Metamora 16:18.37 5:27
165 129 212 Nate Rauh Sr Metamora 16:24.38 5:29
225 186 210 Scott Perry Jr Metamora 16:53.26 5:38
229 190 208 Bill Miller So Metamora 16:55.36 5:39
245 205 211 Brenton Pfaff So Metamora 17:17.00 5:46
248 208 214 Scott Sabin Sr Metamora 17:22.41 5:48
262 221 205 Jeremy Bell So Metamora 18:21.08 6:08


A team with these times has no business running in the state meet. It is unfortunate the system allows unqualified teams to run at state. However, I do believe the top 10 teams make it to the state meet.

[ditka3001]

You guys keep using these examples of other sports where good teams get knocked out before the championships and bad teams get in. What about the most famous and successful postseason tournament in sports: the NCAA basketball tournament. Do you ever see Duke playing North Carolina in the first round? No, because they make sure geographical location doesn't play into the match ups and they make sure the best teams have an opportunity to move on.

[tigercoach]

So Illinois H.S. teams have the money of Division 1 university to fly/drive all over the country (let alone the state).

Tiger Coach

[illinoisprepster]

A team with these times has no business running in the state meet. It is unfortunate the system allows unqualified teams to run at state. However, I do believe the top 10 teams make it to the state meet.

You have a point but I disagree with you. Why? The state association is in the business of inclusion not give the 30 best teams in the state an opportunity to duke it out. I'm sure we all could put together the 30 best teams and go at it. Really, that's not very appealing or is it? In the end no one would really cared if say the 30th BEST TEAM competed at state.

As for Edwardsville, they have a good track record and they would qualify for state in just about every sectional. They probably would not make it out of Bremen but that's it. Then again, the south suburban sectionals used to be weak but now look at em.

[illinoisprepster]

Yes, but with the new poll how many teams are from south of I-80. And in college the media is from all areas of the country. The coaches poll had more people see more meets and they could tell when teams started to peak and run better. The poll now can't do this.

You have some interesting points but there is more to it. Now, I actually get feed back from coaches. Here is some info i don't mind sharing:

1) actual team member attitude on and off the field. For instance, I knew about the York situation before most and alittle about what's going on now, and it is affecting them but because the Dukes are so deep and got that they will win state easily. The situation will not effect them in winning state. I am actually getting feedback from coaches, AD's, you guys, siblings, parents, relatives, best friends, ex-friends, and even enemies of competitors. The info is tremendous.

2) There is no way Rock Island would have been ranked in the past. They have a good team and they deserve credit. It doesn't matter how good so and so is from say the suburbs, there are teams who as good but do not get the credit for both boys and girls. Although there are only two boys teams ranked outside of Chi-land, there have been others over the course of the year. WHo would have thought E. Peoria would be within 9 points of Palatine girls? Without proper info they wouldn't be among the elite despite running solid much of the year.

3) The coaches poll really didn't show how they were looking at meets. The coaches are mainly looking at their teams. How does coach X know when coach Y is peaking or doing this or that? He doesn't. Now, Coach X is sharing his info and Coach Y is sharing his info and it's formatted. I got info and/or input from every ranked school and that includes teams that are on the crust.

[KCSPEED]

Tiger Coach as usual your points are great.

I see southern teams at a big disadvantage. They lack good competition. Their are few teams that have quality programs close to each other south of I80. And guys that would say southern teams need to come up here more for good competition aren't being reasonable.

I don't think I would want the top 30 teams in the state at the state meet anyways. That first turn would be a killer.

[ILRun1]

No offense to the coaches poll the new way is better. One, there were never any reps south of I-80 on the poll and the pollsters didn't seem to have time to do extensive research. In reality, why should they. College pollsters are media and coaches. The coaches there are mostly full time coaches unlike in high school. I couldn't expect coaches from Chicagoland find info on Rock Island or Edwardsville or even E. Peoria. There is good running outside of Chicagoland.

Not sure if you are referring to the old IPTT poll or our IllinoisRunner poll Tony, but we had reps from all over the state when we did ours. That was one thing we were looking for a I think we did a great job with it. However, you and Bob are doing a very good job, keep up the great work!

[illinoisprepster]

Not sure if you are referring to the old IPTT poll or our IllinoisRunner poll Tony, but we had reps from all over the state when we did ours. That was one thing we were looking for a I think we did a great job with it. However, you and Bob are doing a very good job, keep up the great work!

Thanks Scotty... I mean things have expanded just like I indicated just a minute ago. The reason for the change was because I was getting so many emails from coaches and others who had no association to a poll nor did they want to be that objective. So they started sending in all kinds of crazy (good that is) info. I started thinking in August why not do something different. I'm glad we did. There is no way Rock Island would be ranked or maybe run as well. I was told that their kids got this thing on their chest because of the notoriety. It is as if they are rewarded for their accomplishments and they are running and competing even more. Still, I think the job is for us all to enhance the sport.... the coaches are still involved and even more than ever before and that I can promise you.

[roller coaster]

Then again, the south suburban sectionals used to be weak but now look at em.

And someone still needs to show me the crazy map that shows Naperville & Downers Grove are south suburbs.

[DirtyD]

And someone still needs to show me the crazy map that shows Naperville & Downers Grove are south suburbs.Naperville is south of I-88....that's kinda south

[ditka3001]

Tiger Coach as usual your points are great.

I see southern teams at a big disadvantage. They lack good competition. Their are few teams that have quality programs close to each other south of I80. And guys that would say southern teams need to come up here more for good competition aren't being reasonable.

I don't think I would want the top 30 teams in the state at the state meet anyways. That first turn would be a killer.

You guys don't get it. The southern schools don't have good competition because there are no good teams in the south. Once in a blue moon they'll have a team like Edwardsville in 2002, but in general they are just not good teams. Edwardsville lost to Hinsdale South and Crystal Lake South, two teams that are just slightly above average suburban teams, and they are a team that could score under 40 points in their sectional, that's a joke. What do you guys see that I dont?

[daman]

As for Edwardsville, they have a good track record and they would qualify for state in just about every sectional. They probably would not make it out of Bremen but that's it. Then again, the south suburban sectionals used to be weak but now look at em.Just for laughs what other sectionals would they qualify out of? From what I've seen it looks like they wouldn't get out of Bremen, Schaumburg, Niles and Waubonsie.

[illinoisprepster]

You guys don't get it. The southern schools don't have good competition because there are no good teams in the south. Once in a blue moon they'll have a team like Edwardsville in 2002, but in general they are just not good teams. Edwardsville lost to Hinsdale South and Crystal Lake South, two teams that are just slightly above average suburban teams, and they are a team that could score under 40 points in their sectional, that's a joke. What do you guys see that I dont?

DGN lost to Edwardsville

[illinoisprepster]

Just for laughs what other sectionals would they qualify out of? From what I've seen it looks like they wouldn't get out of Bremen, Schaumburg, Niles and Waubonsie.

Niles= is only 3 strong with York, GBS, Fenwick. The 4th and 5th team is Loyola, OPRF, and who?? Edwardsville would get in there easily. Just wait until Duddins comes back (their #2 guy) who has been chilling out.

[illinoisprepster]

And someone still needs to show me the crazy map that shows Naperville & Downers Grove are south suburbs.

they compete at Bremen and that's considered south suburbs or slightly SW.

[ditka3001]

DGN lost to Edwardsville

Check again. They haven't raced each other this season.

[anonymous32]

If we got rid of one of the non-Chicago area sectionals, competition outside Chicagoland would be even worse. Depth outside the area goes in cycles. It's definitely at a low right now, but it will come back to a degree. Most people up here just don't notice. It needs to be a state meet, not a CHicagoland meet. And, with few exceptions (like last year's Rich East Girls' Sectional) the top 10-15 teams at least will make it out of any sectional. And don't bash Metamora--they have 700 students and have produced higher quality college runners than most schools in Chicagoland. It's a great program, even if they might get 30th at state this year.

[Ace-Tres]

And someone still needs to show me the crazy map that shows Naperville & Downers Grove are south suburbs.

I agree, most people consider Naperville a western suburb right?

[daman]

Niles= is only 3 strong with York, GBS, Fenwick. The 4th and 5th team is Loyola, OPRF, and who?? Edwardsville would get in there easily. Just wait until Duddins comes back (their #2 guy) who has been chilling out.Whoa....Lyons and New Trier are in there too. Nachel is as good as Davis and LT matches up quite well after those two. New Trier is just flat out better.

[Fast4]

Niles= is only 3 strong with York, GBS, Fenwick. The 4th and 5th team is Loyola, OPRF, and who?? Edwardsville would get in there easily. Just wait until Duddins comes back (their #2 guy) who has been chilling out.

Now Edwardsville might still manage to get in, if they were in that sectional. But You have to figure a York-GBS-New Trier top three would be pretty solid. THat's the #1-2-13 teams in the state. Then you have Fenwick, Loyola, LT, and OPRF fighting for two spots. Now neither LT nor OPRF is in their prime. Both teams have seen better days. But I think OPRF/LT is respectable for being the 7th best team in the sectional. Still, when you look at how tough the Hinsdale Regional the Niles Sectional looks weak. Downers North/South, Benet, Lockport, Naperville North/Central and NV will all be at Katherine Legge Park. That's the #7-10-12-15-18-20. DGN is really down this year, but for a team that makes state every year, they won't even be close to making sectionals.

[daman]

Now Edwardsville might still manage to get in, if they were in that sectional. But You have to figure a York-GBS-New Trier top three would be pretty solid. THat's the #1-2-13 teams in the state. Then you have Fenwick, Loyola, LT, and OPRF fighting for two spots. Now neither LT nor OPRF is in their prime. Both teams have seen better days. But I think OPRF/LT is respectable for being the 7th best team in the sectional. Still, when you look at how tough the Hinsdale Regional the Niles Sectional looks weak. Downers North/South, Benet, Lockport, Naperville North/Central and NV will all be at Katherine Legge Park. That's the #7-10-12-15-18-20. DGN is really down this year, but for a team that makes state every year, they won't even be close to making sectionals.Have DGN and DGS raced each other this year?

[ditka3001]

Have DGN and DGS raced each other this year?

nope

[idontgetit14]

Have DGN and DGS raced each other this year?


No but i would put my money on DGS to win.
They were perfect in WSCGold duals. The closest to them was Hinsdale South...
DGS-26 HS-30
Was close.

[goin4-1337]

Now Edwardsville might still manage to get in, if they were in that sectional. But You have to figure a York-GBS-New Trier top three would be pretty solid. THat's the #1-2-13 teams in the state. Then you have Fenwick, Loyola, LT, and OPRF fighting for two spots. Now neither LT nor OPRF is in their prime. Both teams have seen better days. But I think OPRF/LT is respectable for being the 7th best team in the sectional. Still, when you look at how tough the Hinsdale Regional the Niles Sectional looks weak. Downers North/South, Benet, Lockport, Naperville North/Central and NV will all be at Katherine Legge Park. That's the #7-10-12-15-18-20. DGN is really down this year, but for a team that makes state every year, they won't even be close to making sectionals.
i bet they make state, they are wayy underrated, i haven't done any research about this but how many runners do those guys have under 16 min with a guy that can be top 3 in the race, i think dgn has a great shot

[daman]

i bet they make state, they are wayy underrated, i haven't done any research about this but how many runners do those guys have under 16 min with a guy that can be top 3 in the race, i think dgn has a great shotWell, that's just to get out of regional....sectionals you add in Sandburg and LWE.

[ditka3001]

No but i would put my money on DGS to win.
They were perfect in WSCGold duals. The closest to them was Hinsdale South...
DGS-26 HS-30
Was close.

The WSC gold is disproprtionately weak compared to the WSC silver. Going undefeated in gold is nothing to brag about.

[KCSPEED]

You guys don't get it. The southern schools don't have good competition because there are no good teams in the south. Once in a blue moon they'll have a team like Edwardsville in 2002, but in general they are just not good teams. Edwardsville lost to Hinsdale South and Crystal Lake South, two teams that are just slightly above average suburban teams, and they are a team that could score under 40 points in their sectional, that's a joke. What do you guys see that I dont?


I see teams at a huge disadvantage. Schools with long travel distances and smaller enrollments.

Out all the schools with 2400 students or more (more than 50) only one is south of I80 Belleville East (2562).

What makes schools good? The enrollment size of the school. Check for yourself. Only one school in the last 5 years (Glenbard South 1435) with an enrollment lower then 2400 always makes the top 10.

[Fast4]

i bet they make state, they are wayy underrated, i haven't done any research about this but how many runners do those guys have under 16 min with a guy that can be top 3 in the race, i think dgn has a great shot

No way, if DGN makes state they are by far the biggest overachievers of the season. That list was just to get out of the regional. I figure Sandburg, Napervilla North, Nequa Valley are all going to make it. Then the last two spots are split between LW-East, DGS, Lockport, Benet and Naperville Central. Those teams are currently ranked 11-12-15-18-20. Those five teams are fighting for 2 spots. How on earth does DGN figure into who is/is not going to state. I think LWE will make it and so will either Lockort or Benet. I'm not really all that impressed with DGS. But DGN won't even make sectionals, so they shouldn't worry about that field too much.

[DetroiterInIL]

Hey.... I'd say you should be happy that there are 3 rounds (regional, sectional, state). Having grown up in Michigan, I know there are only 2 rounds (there were when I ran, there still are). The regional qualifier is geographic. In theory, the 4th best team in the state might not make the state meet if the top 3 were in the same region (well, at least when I ran).

OTOH, Michigan has 4 classes... so things are watered down a bit more. On our region, a time of 16:30 put you in the state meet as an individual. This was for a 5K course that's hillier than the typical IL course - so not sure how to equate it.

Either way, its exciting to have moved to a state where so many teams get an opportunity. Its safe to say that the teams that medal are the top teams.

[illinoisprepster]

Whoa....Lyons and New Trier are in there too. Nachel is as good as Davis and LT matches up quite well after those two. New Trier is just flat out better.

I forgot about NT. They got the goods and i will be able to monitor them from regionals on in person. Oh, Fenwick's #2 is out for now and that could be damaging.

[ditka3001]

I see teams at a huge disadvantage. Schools with long travel distances and smaller enrollments.

Out all the schools with 2400 students or more (more than 50) only one is south of I80 Belleville East (2562).

What makes schools good? The enrollment size of the school. Check for yourself. Only one school in the last 5 years (Glenbard South 1435) with an enrollment lower then 2400 always makes the top 10.

So you're saying southern schools should make it to state over more deserving teams because they have smaller enrollments?

[Jgerst515]

I forgot about NT. They got the goods and i will be able to monitor them from regionals on in person. Oh, Fenwick's #2 is out for now and that could be damaging.
Fenwick's #2 is back, we cured him.

[ILRun1]

Indiana has four state series meets. They had sectionals this past Tuesday and have regionals on Saturday this week. Then the following weekend they have semi-state and then state. Tony can attest to this too, but the Indianapolis semi-state is insanely dominant and every year tons of top 15-20 teams get left out of state because they are all from that region.

[illinoisprepster]

Indiana has four state series meets. They had sectionals this past Tuesday and have regionals on Saturday this week. Then the following weekend they have semi-state and then state. Tony can attest to this too, but the Indianapolis semi-state is insanely dominant and every year tons of top 15-20 teams get left out of state because they are all from that region.

Yep. I come from that set up. Really, sectional and regionals are treated like conference meets by the goods teams unless your from the Duneland conference. Back in the day The teams up north would duke it hard every week for 5 weeks in a row (back to conference). I competed in the Bloomington Semi-state held at IU back in the day. Indy semi-state is rough. I think Indiana has much better state representation than we do here in Illinois in terms of talent distribution. For example, Floyd Central which is at the bottom of the state has had its share of state glory. They won state a few times as well as teams from central Indiana like Carmel and Indy Ben Davis. Up north you have Valpo, Portage and then teams over northeast Indiana that are good from Fort Wayne Area. My area in Terre Haute has solid programs and a state championship.

[daman]

Fenwick's #2 is back, we cured him.Enema?

[daman]

Yep. I come from that set up. Really, sectional and regionals are treated like conference meets by the goods teams unless your from the Duneland conference. Back in the day The teams up north would duke it hard every week for 5 weeks in a row (back to conference). I competed in the Bloomington Semi-state held at IU back in the day. Indy semi-state is rough. I think Indiana has much better state representation than we do here in Illinois in terms of talent distribution. For example, Floyd Central which is at the bottom of the state has had its share of state glory. They won state a few times as well as teams from central Indiana like Carmel and Indy Ben Davis. Up north you have Valpo, Portage and then teams over northeast Indiana that are good from Fort Wayne Area. My area in Terre Haute has solid programs and a state championship.The talent in Illinois is all concentrated near Chicago because there are about 5 million people around here.

[DetroiterInIL]

Last time I checked, the population of Illinois was just over 12 million. The Chicago metro area has about 7 million of that. So, in theory, downstate should be able to be somewhat competitive.

My guess is that the main reason it isn't is the competition. Teams in the Chicago area routinely face tough competition. Early on, they see invites where there are top notch runners - and see what they need to do. So the Chicago area teams get more runners come out and have to perform better to win.

Downstate, only the really talented perform at that level in the state meet. Tim Broe was a 2-time state champ in XC, and 2-time in track (I think) from the Peoria area and went undefeated his last 2 years. But... he's gone on to be the best 5000 meter runner in the U.S. In that same time frame, Justin Young was about 20th-25th in the state meet; and he's now competing in the national meets. These guys had a lot more potential than they showed in H.S. - maybe because they didn't need to push as hard and train as hard as the Chicago area runners because they were already dominant downstate.

Anyone know how Pifer is doing?

[pete2sweet]

22) Brandon Murphy (Sr.) (Oak Park-River Forest)

there is a typo there, it should be Brendan Murphy. You should also on the ranking make a difference between WSC silver and gold.

WSC silver will be at Schiller Woods. I hate our home course. We have three meets there in a row. It started with a duel meet then we have conference then we have regionals. We also had another duel there and an invite.

That'a what lyons felt like last year when almost all of our dual meets were on our course and the conference meet. That's why I had no idea what a good three mile time would be for myself, because I had become so used to the silly 2.85 mile course.

[Goosepatry]

For the whole population/enrollment argument: There are good individuals, good coaches, and good teams throughout the state. Yes, the Chicagoland area is performing much better as a whole, but this map should tell you a lot and help you see some of the perspectives.

http://www.illinoisatlas.com/illinois/demographic/pdf/il_pdcounty2000.pdf

[zatopek1953]

“I’ve never focused too much on the rankings,” Lananna said. “They are a good tool for promoting the sport of cross country, but they really don’t have an impact on what we do on a daily basis.


FYI: This was in a Oregon paper the other day. I agree with him 100%
Sorry Tony, you do an excellent job of promoting. Keep up the good work!
It takes a man to admit he was wrong- I was wrong. Maybe "Dubya" should step up now.

[KCSPEED]

So you're saying southern schools should make it to state over more deserving teams because they have smaller enrollments?


No. I'm trying to explain to you why it is easier for those more deserving teams to find 5 - 7 guys that can run faster than the losers from south of I80.

[KCSPEED]

Last time I checked, the population of Illinois was just over 12 million. The Chicago metro area has about 7 million of that. So, in theory, downstate should be able to be somewhat competitive.

My guess is that the main reason it isn't is the competition. Teams in the Chicago area routinely face tough competition. Early on, they see invites where there are top notch runners - and see what they need to do. So the Chicago area teams get more runners come out and have to perform better to win.

Downstate, only the really talented perform at that level in the state meet. Tim Broe was a 2-time state champ in XC, and 2-time in track (I think) from the Peoria area and went undefeated his last 2 years. But... he's gone on to be the best 5000 meter runner in the U.S. In that same time frame, Justin Young was about 20th-25th in the state meet; and he's now competing in the national meets. These guys had a lot more potential than they showed in H.S. - maybe because they didn't need to push as hard and train as hard as the Chicago area runners because they were already dominant downstate.

Anyone know how Pifer is doing?


No. In theory down state has 80 - 90 % more land mass then the Chicago area. So the population is all over the place. Someone from Michigan may not know this so I will let you off the hook this time.

Yes, you are correct the competition is closer so it is easier to get to good meets with a lot of talent.

Even downstate teams can get lucky and get one talented individual just like northern teams. But only one TEAM in the state has been successfull year in and year out, north or south of I80, with a population of less then 2400 students. Glenbard South. If schools north of I80 with populations less than 2400 students and with shorter travel distances to good competition can't do (except GS) how can schools south of I80 do it?

[ditka3001]

No. In theory down state has 80 - 90 % more land mass then the Chicago area. So the population is all over the place. Someone from Michigan may not know this so I will let you off the hook this time.

Yes, you are correct the competition is closer so it is easier to get to good meets with a lot of talent.

Even downstate teams can get lucky and get one talented individual just like northern teams. But only one TEAM in the state has been successfull year in and year out, north or south of I80, with a population of less then 2400 students. Glenbard South. If schools north of I80 with populations less than 2400 students and with shorter travel distances to good competition can't do (except GS) how can schools south of I80 do it?

What you are saying is true, but I don't get what point you are trying to make.

[Goosepatry]

I apologize in advance to my mentors and the very professional, qualified, and dignified coaches and collegues from the Chicagoland area. I know that I should stay off this board and promise this will be my last post other than listing results, regardless of the responses I receive.

Since most people know who I am, let me tell you a story..........

A long time ago, in a south suburban sectional far, far away...........

Back when I was a sophomore (1991), I ran for a Lincoln-way High School of the SICA West. At this time we had a pretty good team, but only few people would recognize or abilities and achievements. We were given very little credit, as the Southern Suburbs were considered weak competition. This weak, crappy school went on to finish third in the state and bring home a trophy.

The following year, when I was a junior, I made a stupid move and came through the mile leading the pack. At this time, Sports Channel televised the State Meet on local television. I remember watching the race, with commentators listing all of the quality competition. Prior to state, I believe my worse finish in any race was 4th place. I kid your not, here is this skinny Lincoln-Way kid, coming through the mile in 4:43ish. There is a pause in the commentary. The camera switches off me, onto the two announcers on the back of the pace car. The announcers stare at each other and begin to discuss the weather. About 20 seconds after I appear, they announce my name as leading the race. Point is, I finished 36th as a sophomore and they had no clue who I was because I ran for the crappy southern suburbs (by the way, I held on to finish 7th).

Since I have been in the southern half of the state competing, attending college, teaching and coaching, things have changed. Lockport has won state championships and the Southern Suburbs produce some of the best running in the state. (if you did not notice, the suburbs got better as enrollment began to increase). My first point is this, the southern suburbs used to viewed and disrespected, just as you view and disrespect the southern schools now!

I know that I have been cricitized for posting on this board, as coaches should not do this. Sorry, sometimes I get passionate. If you look at my posts, I will never call out another team. I will never predict what my team will do. I will not put pressure on my team by doing such ignorant things. I have never complained about ranking or stated that we obviously are as good or bad as our ranking shows. For some reason, certain people jump down my throat when I post! Please look at my points and don't misinterpret what I am saying.

I know that this board is supposed to promote the sport of cross-country. I'm sorry, but, without saying names, some of you guys are egotistical jerks! All you have to do is go through this thread to see it. How are you promoting this sport when you call people out and try to embarrass them? How is it healthy to rip on teams, make fun out of athletes, etc. How closed minded are you when you post comments like "No theres not (in regards to any talent or good running south of I-80)" or calling all runners south of I-80 "Losers!" What is this? I know there is freedom of speech. I know you are entitled to your opininion, but that is just plain ignorance!" I will say this, based on the people I know post, it does not seem like it is the true top 5 teams in the state making these comments. Just think about, York typically can make the comment that there is not talent outside of Elmhurst. Would you buy this argument? If not, then you should not be making it either (especially when you represent a team that dyestat, IPTT, and most coaches view as not being as good as at least one southern Illinois school you continue to bash).

I understand trash talking, but I do not promote it as a coach. Again, I will never say anything bad, calling a school or athlete out. I will never post on how good my team is or what I think we are capable of doing. I think some of you guys need to grow up.

Please, say what you wish about me. I can handle the criticism towards me (but understand, I know what it takes to compete up North). I ask for two things:
1) Leave my team out of it. I have not placed them in any position for you guys to go off on them.
2) Quit making the ignorant comments about Southern Illinois. Yes, Northern Illinois is overall much better and more competitive, but there is good running in Southern Illinois, too.

Again, sorry for the coaches I disappointed in posting this, but I had to get it off my chest! Thank you.

[KCSPEED]

What you are saying is true, but I don't get what point you are trying to make.

The Buffy Chested Chicago area people on these boards are at a BIG ADVANAGE to the southern schools. It has nothing to do with coaching, except for at Glenbard South, it has to do with population of a region. Just because schools are ranked higher then others doesn't mean they belong at state. Northern Schools are lucky they have large populations. Why don't they fire coaches who can't win with student populations higher then 2400?
What an easy job they have.

[DetroiterInIL]

I'm guessing KCSpeed is refuting part of my point in that there are more "downstate" schools than Chicago area schools. I'm interpreting this as "55% of the state population is in the Chicago area" but only about 35% of the schools. So.... its not only that the competition is tougher, making it more of an incentive for Chicago-area runners to step it up - but the schools are bigger and closer together.

That makes sense.

Either way... I still believe that part of the reason that downstate schools don't do as well as Chicago area schools is because Chicago area schools more routinely face other tough schools. Downstate, that's harder. People are mentioning Edwardsville - how far would they have to travel to meet schools of similar caliber. For Palatine, its a lot easier, they travel 10 miles to Prospect and face them 4 times over the course of the year (at least). So, Palatine and Prospect ramp up by pushing each other. Edwardsville doesn't have that luxury.

I'm NOT saying Edwardsville is in the same class as the top MSL schools; only that its harder for them to reach their potential.

Hope that makes sense...

[KCSPEED]

I'm guessing KCSpeed is refuting part of my point in that there are more "downstate" schools than Chicago area schools. I'm interpreting this as "55% of the state population is in the Chicago area" but only about 35% of the schools. So.... its not only that the competition is tougher, making it more of an incentive for Chicago-area runners to step it up - but the schools are bigger and closer together.

That makes sense.

Either way... I still believe that part of the reason that downstate schools don't do as well as Chicago area schools is because Chicago area schools more routinely face other tough schools. Downstate, that's harder. People are mentioning Edwardsville - how far would they have to travel to meet schools of similar caliber. For Palatine, its a lot easier, they travel 10 miles to Prospect and face them 4 times over the course of the year (at least). So, Palatine and Prospect ramp up by pushing each other. Edwardsville doesn't have that luxury.

I'm NOT saying Edwardsville is in the same class as the top MSL schools; only that its harder for them to reach their potential.

Hope that makes sense...

Nice Job, you got it!

[DetroiterInIL]

I did have another point, though, and that is more "individual" based.

The argument KCSpeed puts together makes sense for the team concept - but not as much for the individuals. If 45% of the individuals are from "downstate" (which I put in quotes because somehow thinking of Rockford as downstate is bothersome), why aren't 45% of the individual state champs from downstate. OK, part of it is that nearly all the A champs are downstate runners in downstate schools, but the AA is heavily skewed toward Chicago area runners - but that still isn't enough.

That's what I was trying to say by citing Tim Broe and Justin Young. Broe was a multiple state champ, but with times that wouldn't really make you think he'd be the best 5000 meter runner in the U.S. 10 years later. Broe was really, really good, but he didn't exactly make people forget Craig Virgin. Justin Young was barely all-state; maybe 23rd (would have to check) but turned out to be a college stud who is still running well after graduation. Most of the 22 guys that beat him haven't done as well since.

I think that individuals from the Chicago area perform closer to their potential than from downstate as a general rule. There are exceptions (Virgin, for example). I'm guessing a big part of it is the level of competition. To keep winning races in the Chicago area you have to be on top of your game all the time. Look at Dettman in the Palatine invite. Whereas downstate, a top notch runner can coast from time-to-time more easily than a Chicago area runner.

This is also why I asked - anyone know how Pifer is doing this year?

[tigercoach]

Pifer is doing fine. I believe they have Pre Nats this week, and he should be a big part of the team again like last year.

Tiger Coach

[KCSPEED]

What you are saying is true, but I don't get what point you are trying to make.

So lets get back to the Hinsdale Central Regional. The schools that are ranked in this region have some of the highest enrollments in the state.

11th largest school Neuqua Valley ranked 10th, 14th Lockport ranked 16th, 19th Downers Grove South ranked 12th, 25th Naperville Central 19th, 26th Naperville North ranked 7. Downers Grove North and Benet are the only ranked schools with enrollments lower than 2400. Then we could look at the other schools who aren't ranked in this regional. Bolingbrook with 3160 students, Hinsdale Central 2470 students and then more reasonable size schools but still larger than most downstate high schools Hinsdale South 1913, Romeoville 1741 and Lemont 1291.

If you can't make it to state with enrollments over 3,000, which most of these schools have, the Cross Country coach should be fired, not complaining about unranked downstate schools making the state meet.

[ICEMAN]

If you can't make it to state with enrollments over 3,000, which most of these schools have, the Cross Country coach should be fired, not complaining about unranked downstate schools making the state meet.

You ever think that some schools really don't support thier cross country programs, but would bend over backwards for the football team. This reflects on the amount of publicity the school puts on the other programs besides football and basketball aka the money makers.

[daman]

If you can't make it to state with enrollments over 3,000, which most of these schools have, the Cross Country coach should be fired, not complaining about unranked downstate schools making the state meet.Yeah, but most of those schools do make it downstate, so the coaches are obviously doing a good job, and should not be fired. :)

[anonymous32]

KCSPEED--Do schools fire their cross country coaches for not making state? If all the biggest schools are in the same regionals and sectionals, how do you justify firing them? Do you know cross country coaches have other jobs?

[KCSPEED]

Yeah, but most of those schools do make it downstate, so the coaches are obviously doing a good job, and should not be fired. :)

Yes, but if you look at past posts some guys are mad that a ranked school in the Hinsdale Central regional will not make it to state because there are 7 ranked teams in the meet.

[daman]

Yes, but if you look at past posts some guys are mad that a ranked school in the Hinsdale Central regional will not make it to state because there are 7 ranked teams in the meet.That's beyond the coaches control, however. It really does make it appear that the IHSA deliberately loads up one sectional to eliminate some good teams and allow weaker sectionals not to look so bad, which they do anyhow.

[ditka3001]

So lets get back to the Hinsdale Central Regional. The schools that are ranked in this region have some of the highest enrollments in the state.

11th largest school Neuqua Valley ranked 10th, 14th Lockport ranked 16th, 19th Downers Grove South ranked 12th, 25th Naperville Central 19th, 26th Naperville North ranked 7. Downers Grove North and Benet are the only ranked schools with enrollments lower than 2400. Then we could look at the other schools who aren't ranked in this regional. Bolingbrook with 3160 students, Hinsdale Central 2470 students and then more reasonable size schools but still larger than most downstate high schools Hinsdale South 1913, Romeoville 1741 and Lemont 1291.

If you can't make it to state with enrollments over 3,000, which most of these schools have, the Cross Country coach should be fired, not complaining about unranked downstate schools making the state meet.

This is contradictory. You say these schools should make state because they have large enrollments, but they're all in the same regional. Only 5 make it to sectionals.

[KCSPEED]

That's beyond the coaches control, however. It really does make it appear that the IHSA deliberately loads up one sectional to eliminate some good teams and allow weaker sectionals not to look so bad, which they do anyhow.

Do you really think they sit down and say lets get so and so at regionals?

I don't think so, who has the time to do that. They have always taken the schools closest to each other and put them in a regional.

I do believe sometimes they have to use a better map.

[daman]

Do you really think they sit down and say lets get so and so at regionals?

I don't think so, who has the time to do that. They have always taken the schools closest to each other and put them in a regional.

I do believe sometimes they have to use a better map.No, I just said it makes it appear that way. But it still doesn't make any sense. How are York and GBS close to New Trier? And GBS is closer to Naperville than they are to york.

[Jgerst515]

Enema?
Nah, he had an inflammed tendon below his shin. We got him therapy. We gave him a lot of track candy too(ibuprofen).

[JaguarJordan]

No there is not. There is very limited team talent within the Chicago city limits and south of Lockport. The most consistent programs are in the Chicago suburbs. Edwardsville will not finish top 20 in state and would not make it to state if they had to qualify through the suburban sectionals.

And you know this how???? Do you drive down, oh excuse me "run" down to see what they can do? You have no idea of what any team may be capable of, so i would suggest stop talking about how bad certain schools are.

[ICEMAN]

No, I just said it makes it appear that way. But it still doesn't make any sense. How are York and GBS close to New Trier? And GBS is closer to Naperville than they are to york.
Totally argree, its like voting districts, without all the politics. It is just all over the map.

[daman]

Totally argree, its like voting districts, without all the politics. It is just all over the map.Or, maybe with the politics. In voting, they look at the demographics of the districts, then restructure the districts come election time so their guy gets elected.

[KCSPEED]

No, I just said it makes it appear that way. But it still doesn't make any sense. How are York and GBS close to New Trier? And GBS is closer to Naperville than they are to york.

I think two things are going on here.

1. The map they use is not correct. I heard last year that on their map Glenbard South H.S. looks like it is North of North Avenue. Which is totally wrong.

2. You have host locations too close to each other or maybe too far. This is based on who wants to host a regional. Because of this you have teams going to places that may look a little odd.

[KCSPEED]

This is contradictory. You say these schools should make state because they have large enrollments, but they're all in the same regional. Only 5 make it to sectionals.

Well I guess them all being in the same regional even things out a little for the smaller enrollment schools.

[daman]

I think two things are going on here.

1. The map they use is not correct. I heard last year that on their map Glenbard South H.S. looks like it is North of North Avenue. Which is totally wrong.

That's not the map, they just don't read none too good :)....That's Glenbard North that is north of North Ave....how many times does the word "north" come in there? jeez, is that bad or what?