MH grabs the wildcard

[RBroady]

just posted on the front page.....

saratoga and MH get the at large bids....

good luck to both teams, i think theres no doubt MH really deserves to be at NTN

[NJ5k]

Rox also gets a wildcard. Good to see.

[tmfcmike]

so they are going to san diego?

[King355]

Oregon buddy...

[tb1223]

wow, that's awesome. good for them, they deserve it.

[GeorgieTheK]

congrats to both teams.

looks like there will be 3 NJ teams in the top 10. And the possibility of all 3 finishing in the top 5.

too bad Colts Neck girls won't be there, but they'll get their shot next year.


Does this mean Lambert gets a trip to Portland?

[Grote]

Great news for Morris Hills...CBA is better than they are, but not by 52 points. I'm not a huge fan of the whole NTN meet, but this makes up for that a bit in my book, as I think its great for those guys to have another shot at a great race. It would have been a shame for those seniors to end on the note that they did at MoC. Hopefully and health/injury issues are cleared up and they can run at their best.

Grote

[Scotty]

Congrats to the HILLS Club....Lucky #20!!!!!!!

Those guys will represent well, I believe.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Wow! That's awesome. Congrats to CBA, Roxbury and Morris Hills.

[PaulS2005]

I know King99 must be tickled, good luck to all the n.j. schools

[king99]

I felt all along if they were looking for the strongest "possible " contender ,along with Toga, who probably locked up their spot last week, that they would get in.

That being said, as they say in Hold 'em, I thought it was a coin flip.

Great news, very happy for boys, Coach and families.

[JSNWriter]

Hopefully and health/injury issues are cleared up and they can run at their best.
Grote

The reason why MH doesn't deserve the wildcard is because they are not the same team they were weeks ago. Why would a team that now has injuries to their #2 and #3 men be qualified to attend the meet? Their #2 man ran 19 minutes and Decker's foot was brutally tortured by the Holmdel course. And if I am correct, this condition that Hills' 2nd man has has been going on for a period of time. Who's to say that all of a sudden it is going to stop and he'll run at full form. Same on Decker's case. How many practices have these runners missed since the NJ meet and what kind of condition are they in now? Oh and another reason why they dont deserve it is because their 5th man brings their team average down plenty of time and the gap from the 4th to him is going to be so crucial at NTN that MH doesnt have a chance to crack the top 15.

If MH ran at full strength at NJ without injuries, then I'd be on their side and support them. However they aren't at their peak level and thats why anothe rteam deserves it instead.

[78Champ]

The reason why MH doesn't deserve the wildcard is because they are not the same team they were weeks ago. Why would a team that now has injuries to their #2 and #3 men be qualified to attend the meet? Their #2 man ran 19 minutes and Decker's foot was brutally tortured by the Holmdel course. And if I am correct, this condition that Hills' 2nd man has has been going on for a period of time. Who's to say that all of a sudden it is going to stop and he'll run at full form. Same on Decker's case. How many practices have these runners missed since the NJ meet and what kind of condition are they in now? Oh and another reason why they dont deserve it is because their 5th man brings their team average down plenty of time and the gap from the 4th to him is going to be so crucial at NTN that MH doesnt have a chance to crack the top 15.

If MH ran at full strength at NJ without injuries, then I'd be on their side and support them. However they aren't at their peak level and thats why anothe rteam deserves it instead.

You are wrong.

JW

[GeorgieTheK]

The reason why MH doesn't deserve the wildcard is because they are not the same team they were weeks ago. Why would a team that now has injuries to their #2 and #3 men be qualified to attend the meet? Their #2 man ran 19 minutes and Decker's foot was brutally tortured by the Holmdel course. And if I am correct, this condition that Hills' 2nd man has has been going on for a period of time. Who's to say that all of a sudden it is going to stop and he'll run at full form. Same on Decker's case. How many practices have these runners missed since the NJ meet and what kind of condition are they in now? Oh and another reason why they dont deserve it is because their 5th man brings their team average down plenty of time and the gap from the 4th to him is going to be so crucial at NTN that MH doesnt have a chance to crack the top 15.

If MH ran at full strength at NJ without injuries, then I'd be on their side and support them. However they aren't at their peak level and thats why anothe rteam deserves it instead.

I don't think you could be more wrong in your assessment. MH will run well. They could have a guy drop out and still finish in the top 15. They deserve the bid based on the strength of their season, not simply the last race.

Every team faces a "what-if." All teams are selected based on how well they have run during the season, not how well the committee THINKS they will perform, or how they actually do perform.

Their record this season stacks up will with the other teams in contention for a wildcard - Barstow, LaSalle, Boise, SMNW, Palatine. Only Palatine and Barstow (along with MH) showed they were capable of running with the elite teams this season.

MH is more than a fine choice, and they'll represent their school, and NJ well.

(Don't be shocked if they beat CBA, I won't be.)

[BUGS1776]

Great news for Mo Hills, makes Labar's run of a lifetime all the more special.

[ddrunner]

MoHills getting a bid shows you why the NTN commitee has more than 1 criteria to earn a bid to the meet. Look at Roxbury on the women's side. Same issues only in reverse tough going early on and finished strong. Good luck to all the NJ teams at NTN. I also hope the athletes are able to enjoy the experience.

[andyxc]

yeh, i saw that.

[jersey_guy]

Is Rodkewitz going to run at NTN?

[king99]

Yes

[bitterb2]

It's just awesome that we get to see CBA and Mo Hills have what will probably be an epic, this time on a national stage. Mo Hills was a very worthy selection and they'll prove it in Oregon. Good luck to both teams.

[Scotty]

Every team faces a "what-if." All teams are selected based on how well they have run during the season, not how well the committee THINKS they will perform, or how they actually do perform.

Their record this season stacks up will with the other teams in contention for a wildcard - Barstow, LaSalle, Boise, SMNW, Palatine. Only Palatine and Barstow (along with MH) showed they were capable of running with the elite teams this season.

MH is more than a fine choice, and they'll represent their school, and NJ well.

(Don't be shocked if they beat CBA, I won't be.)

George, This is the 4th time that this MH team will face off against this CBA group in the last two yrs (CBA won the first three: 2004 MOC, 2005 Manhattan, and 2005 MOC). MH certainly realizes that this is their final shot at the Colts, and no doubt would love to beat them one time before it's over. May be just the motivation they need...

[JSNWriter]

I honestly think that MH will probably put up a similar performance to the one for the Group III championships, which is obviously not enough to take down CBA. I think CBA will beat MH by atleast 20-25 after seeing how well CBA did at MOC. And the scary part is that they are still getting better each day.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I honestly think that MH will probably put up a similar performance to the one for the Group III championships, which is obviously not enough to take down CBA. I think CBA will beat MH by atleast 20-25 after seeing how well CBA did at MOC. And the scary part is that they are still getting better each day.

You're hardly objective and have now proven that you don't know what you are talking about with your statements about MH not belonging. Your objection to MH based on a condition that one runner has evidently dealt with effectively for a long is ignorant. Your objection about the other guy who lost a shoe shows a lack of knowledge of the sport.

Honestly, it is people like you who make others root against CBA. Not satisfied with your team getting there, you now want to prevent another worthy team from doing the same. Gee, I wonder why?

You could learn something from Georgie, who is as big a CBA fan as there is.

[tach44444]

You're hardly objective and have now proven that you don't know what you are talking about with your statements about MH not belonging. Your objection to MH based on a condition that one runner has evidently dealt with effectively for a long is ignorant. Your objection about the other guy who lost a shoe shows a lack of knowledge of the sport.

Honestly, it is people like you who make others root against CBA. Not satisfied with your team getting there, you now want to prevent another worthy team from doing the same. Gee, I wonder why?

You could learn something from Georgie, who is as big a CBA fan as there is.

im totally in favor of morris hills going to NTN, especially wen i saw wat they did up at my home course, garrett, with wat was it, 4 guys under 16:12? that was unreal... if they don't deserve to go, idk who does

but king99 says it all the time, it is wat it is, and MH ran a team avg. 16:34.40 and lost to CBA by 52 points. take that as it is, although it is obvious 2 things happened that seriously tainted their performance... i understand that, but ppl can speculate a ton over every other team out there, and u can speculate "if that went well" or "if that didn't happen" for all the teams that didn't make it to NTN. we've established that principle already.

the fact remains they lost to CBA by 52 points, and by where CBA ranks in our region and in america, does that merrit MH a bid to Oregon? i still think so, but i don't know much about the whole deal.

Im only bringing this up cuz king99 has always been pretty strong about this point in the past so why not now?

no doubt im sure MH will bounce back and i say a top 12 finish and CBA gets 2nd i say...

[Bennett]

I have to say that MH can have a bad race and be top 15. They are that good. Just look at MOC. I have not seen a team have two guys go down basically an dstill avg a great time and finish 2nd (with 3rd nowhere in site).

George, did you graduate from CBA or Morris Hills? I am almost positive you graduated from CBA? :rolleyes:

I have now become addicted to these lame face things. :D

See what I mean :p

obnoxious :cool:

Any Jersey folks going to Portland????

[GeorgieTheK]

MH certainly realizes that this is their final shot at the Colts, and no doubt would love to beat them one time before it's over. May be just the motivation they need...

Didn't you say the same thing before the MOC? :)

In all seriousness, the runners on both teams know what is at stake. I'm sure MH is excited to still be competing, and to show everyone that they're a top notch team.

However, all this motivation, excitement, thinking, dreaming, etc. won't mean anything once the first half goes out in 2:15, with the pack in 2:20, and guys are in over their heads. The race is completely different from anything that most of these guys have ever experienced. MOC or Feds is nice - probably the best prep for this is running FL regionals.

I will say that teams that have been there last year will have a leg up. They know what it's like, they know what to expect. You can tell a team/person until you're blue in the face that the race will go out hard, and not to panic, but until they actually do it, they won't know what you're talking about.

It happens on every level: NC's in XC is completely different from conferences or regionals. World cross is completely different from national meets, or even international races. People just go out hard, take the pack with them, and you watch guys struggle home.

It'll be a great meet. Lots of different story lines, lots of interesting sub-plots.

Both NJ teams have great shots at placing high. Yes, Bennett, I've got a CBA diploma stashed away somewhere (under all the other diplomas that i'm accumulating.) the brothers taught me loyalty, but they also taught me to use my head! ;)

Anyway, NTN is icing for me. The second it's over I'll start thinking at Penn Relays. heck, my avatar shows I'm already thinking indoors!

[outofshape]

MoHills fastest average at Holmdel was 16:30, correct?

They haven't beaten a ranked opponent, correct?

CBA averaged 16:15, correct?

I go by results, not potential, and no way in hell is MoHills going to come close to beating CBA. Sure, MoHills had a great midseason, beating imaginary opponents and crushing course records for no real reason. I understand that they had bad luck at MOC, but what about the week before? They were fried from their unnecessary hammering in the middle of the season.

And what kind of shape could they be in now? CBA knew they were going to make NTN, they've been training accordingly. MoHills was banged up, what kind of training have they put in?

I don't think any other team deserves to go to NTN more than MoHills, but I don't think they will come close to CBA as some of you are predicting.

It seems like this forum hates to hear negative things about anybody, but MoHills was coached poorly. They peaked at the wrong time, plain and simple.

[runinstripes]

MoHills fastest average at Holmdel was 16:30, correct?

They haven't beaten a ranked opponent, correct?

CBA averaged 16:15, correct?

I go by results, not potential, and no way in hell is MoHills going to come close to beating CBA. Sure, MoHills had a great midseason, beating imaginary opponents and crushing course records for no real reason. I understand that they had bad luck at MOC, but what about the week before? They were fried from their unnecessary hammering in the middle of the season.

And what kind of shape could they be in now? CBA knew they were going to make NTN, they've been training accordingly. MoHills was banged up, what kind of training have they put in?

I don't think any other team deserves to go to NTN more than MoHills, but I don't think they will come close to CBA as some of you are predicting.

It seems like this forum hates to hear negative things about anybody, but MoHills was coached poorly. They peaked at the wrong time, plain and simple.

How the hell can you say that they were coached poorly? Did their coach have something to do with Decker's shoe coming off? Did he have something to do with Rodky's heart? NO. All of the others ran very good to great, so I do NOT know where you are coming from with this.

[outofshape]

OK I guess I have to make it clear for the slow ones.

I understand they had bad luck at MOC

Again, I understand they had bad luck at MOC.

That's no one's fault, I'm discounting it and looking at the week before, because AGAIN like I said, I don't care about potential, I care about what they did for an entire XC season.

Get it now?

[78Champ]

OK I guess I have to make it clear for the slow ones.

I understand they had bad luck at MOC

Again, I understand they had bad luck at MOC.

That's no one's fault, I'm discounting it and looking at the week before, because AGAIN like I said, I don't care about potential, I care about what they did for an entire XC season.

Get it now?

Let's see if you get this.

Based on their schedule and the way they ran it, what do you think their no. 1 goal was this season?

My impression is that they ran some races harder than they had to, so that they did not lose position in the NTN regional rankings. Based on this it appears that their no. 1 priority was getting an invite to NTN.

Now, if my presumption is correct, it appears that they achieved their no. 1 goal.

Pretty good coaching in my opinion.

JW

[runinstripes]

They peaked at the wrong time, plain and simple.
You tell ME how they peaked at the wrong time...

[78Champ]

I would pick Coach Robinson 100 times out of 100 opportunities if my choices were Robinson or Heath.

At the MOC, after the race was over and Heath was walking down to meet up with his team, I called to him and congratulated him. He turned and stared at me and did not even acknowledge my gesture, not a nod, not a wave, not a thanks...nothing. Sorry, but he is not the type of person I would even want to compete for.

JW

[runinstripes]

I would pick Coach Robinson 100 times out of 100 opportunities if my choices were Robinson or Heath.

At the MOC, after the race was over and Heath was walking down to meet up with his team, I called to him and congratulated him. He turned and stared at me and did not even acknowledge my gesture, not a nod, not a wave, not a thanks...nothing. Sorry, but he is not the type of person I would even want to compete for.

JW
That's right, F the pink polo. haha

[outofshape]

They ran their fastest mid-season, correct?

I don't know you guys, this seems pretty simple to me.

Everyone criticized CBA for not racing until October. Well, they're the fastest team in NJ history and are peaking at the right time.

Now, unless MoHills magically regroups and runs fast as hell at NTN, they peaked at the WRONG TIME.

I can't see how you can argue that the ideal situation would be for them to smash course records in the middle of the season, and look pretty fried at groups. Yeah, they made NTN, and yeah, that was probably their goal, but they BARELY made it, and a lot of people don't think they deserve it. Like I said, I think they do, well more than others at least.

[King355]

Yes, their 4-5 runners PR'd by a combined 41 seconds, one guy lost a shoe and ran 16:24, a junior ran 16:08, and another guy had a heart trouble and had trouble even finishing. Oh by the way, they had a soph PR by 31 seconds at MOC. Terrible coaching indeed. Don't talk about how their coach performed, you don't know what they did the week before groups, so you cannot comment.

If you want an example of what their coach does leading up to groups, look at the jump they made last year from groups to MOC, they don't set themselves up to run big at the group meet. They had hoped to run fast that day, because they were so hot and the conditions were perfect, but they weren't set up to do so. Please, actually analyze the situation before you speak.

After writing this post addressed at Outofshape, I wonder why I bother as he downplayed running 15:45 at Holmdel. I better hit submit before I rethink this...

[outofshape]

I would pick Coach Robinson 100 times out of 100 opportunities if my choices were Robinson or Heath.

At the MOC, after the race was over and Heath was walking down to meet up with his team, I called to him and congratulated him. He turned and stared at me and did not even acknowledge my gesture, not a nod, not a wave, not a thanks...nothing. Sorry, but he is not the type of person I would even want to compete for.

JW

This is out of line. Extremely. You're taking ONE INSTANCE and judging his character. Anyone that knows Heath will tell you this is not him. He probably didn't hear you, or did hear you and didn't know where it came from. Give me a break. Plus, if you were to pick a coach based on skill in coaching, no one would not pick Heath.

[outofshape]

Yes, their 4-5 runners PR'd by a combined 41 seconds, one guy lost a shoe and ran 16:24, a junior ran 16:08, and another guy had a heart trouble and had trouble even finishing. Oh by the way, they had a soph PR by 31 seconds at MOC. Terrible coaching indeed. Don't talk about how their coach performed, you don't know what they did the week before groups, so you cannot comment.

If you want an example of what their coach does leading up to groups, look at the jump they made last year from groups to MOC, they don't set themselves up to run big at the group meet. They had hoped to run fast that day, because they were so hot, but they weren't set up to do so. Please, actually analyze the situation before you speak.

After writing this post addressed at Outofshape, I wonder why I bother as he downplayed running 15:45 at Holmdel. I better hit submit before I rethink this...


I was not serious in writing 15:45 was not great. I was serious in saying Massam looked vulnerable. I was the first one to predict Massam would lose to Forys, and everyone thought I was crazy.

[runinstripes]

When 2 of their usual top 5 PR...and 2 had extenuating circumstances...I'm not so sure you can say definitively that they peaked at the wrong time and coached wrong.

[78Champ]

This is out of line. Extremely. You're taking ONE INSTANCE and judging his character. Anyone that knows Heath will tell you this is not him. He probably didn't hear you, or did hear you and didn't know where it came from. Give me a break. Plus, if you were to pick a coach based on skill in coaching, no one would not pick Heath.

There were witnesses. And this ONE INSTANCE is not out of character for him.

And I can say with certainty, that I would not pick Heath. I was pretty satisfied with the coach I had and his "skills".

JW

[runinstripes]

This is out of line. Extremely. You're taking ONE INSTANCE and judging his character. Anyone that knows Heath will tell you this is not him. He probably didn't hear you, or did hear you and didn't know where it came from. Give me a break. Plus, if you were to pick a coach based on skill in coaching, no one would not pick Heath.
Heath may be the most skilled in MOTIVATING, but that doesn't make him the most skilled overall...and PS..there are numerous other incidents similar to JW's further making Heath an as$
One that pops into mind was in the middle of a race Heath was yelling at a runner (who I will not name) that he was a disgrace and should just stop...and this was just a Jr. race early at Warinanco.

[outofshape]

When 2 of their usual top 5 PR...and 2 had extenuating circumstances...I'm not so sure you can say definitively that they peaked at the wrong time and coached wrong.

They didn't need to run so fast midseason...they averaged 16:34 the week before...We'll see what happens at NTN, my prediction is not too much from them.

[countylover]

I will NOT take sides on the argument about either team, or about the MH coach, as I do not know him, but I do know Heath, and I was at MOC, and if I understand you correctly, you treid to talk to Heath as he was leaving the top part towards the chute. Anyone that knows him would know not to even try to talk to him until he is 100% sure that the meet is finialized, he will never assume based on 1000m left that cba has won or lost, even if it looks like it by over 50 pts. I am not saying it was wrong for you to congraulate him, but I am not surprised you did not get a response. That is the way Heath is, and I think it is just his style of coaching, that he is a bit harder on his guys when he knows they are not giving 100%, and I think that is why he has had so much success.

[King355]

I was going to reply back, but Outofshape has no grounds for what he says anyway, he doesn't know how MH trains, and he doesn't know Robinson, so whatever he has to say about his training, is completely worthless. He is a good coach and doesn't need my defense. People who can look at something objectively and actually have knowledge on the subject, would agree.

[outofshape]

King335, you DID reply...just so you know. And I'll say it one more time, I go by results. I don't need to know them personally. Something didn't go right. We'll see what happens at NTN...like I said, I don't expect much.

[78Champ]

I will NOT take sides on the argument about either team, or about the MH coach, as I do not know him, but I do know Heath, and I was at MOC, and if I understand you correctly, you treid to talk to Heath as he was leaving the top part towards the chute. Anyone that knows him would know not to even try to talk to him until he is 100% sure that the meet is finialized, he will never assume based on 1000m left that cba has won or lost, even if it looks like it by over 50 pts. I am not saying it was wrong for you to congraulate him, but I am not surprised you did not get a response. That is the way Heath is, and I think it is just his style of coaching, that he is a bit harder on his guys when he knows they are not giving 100%, and I think that is why he has had so much success.

He was already down at the bottom and there was no doubt as to the outcome. The race was over for quite sometime.

The look on his face was not one of bewilderment...I would decribe it more like contempt. (Actually, one of the witnesses described it that way at the time). And for the record, I don't think he knows who I am, so the theory that maybe he doesn't like me because I picked MH to win MOC doesn't work.

JW

[outofshape]

What's your point JW? Heath is rude to everyone because according to you, he was rude at one instance? I can name many other accounts that show Heath is a good guy and a great coach. I can assure you that even in this instance, Heath would have acknowledged you, I guarantee there's more to this story. It really doesn't matter though, you seem to be firm in your beliefs. Just for the record, the people that actually know Heath will tell you different.

[King355]

If you think you can judge how someone is coached WITHOUT knowing them personally and knowing their mentality about certain races, then I really don't care what you think. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

[outofshape]

I guess you know everyone personally that you post about? And so does everyone else? And no one can critique anyone in sports without knowing them personally?

What is this forum for then? I'm just stating my opinion, and using results as my basis.

[countylover]

I am just going to let this go, I know what I think of Heath, and have spent 4+ years knowing him, and one person's view will not change my own. This is all I am going to say.

[78Champ]

I guess you know everyone personally that you post about? And so does everyone else? And no one can critique anyone in sports without knowing them personally?

What is this forum for then? I'm just stating my opinion, and using results as my basis.

But apparently you are the only one that can.

:rolleyes:

What's your point JW? Heath is rude to everyone because according to you, he was rude at one instance?

JW

[outofshape]

JW, who's character am I judging? There's a clear difference, and I'm obviously not contradicting myself. I don't think it's wrong for anyone to post about anyone else in terms of our sport, but when it comes to their personality/character etc., as you did with Heath, that is wrong.

You can't try to use my words against me, I don't contradict myself. Nice try though!!

Oh, and here:

:rolleyes:

[78Champ]

I am just going to let this go, I know what I think of Heath, and have spent 4+ years knowing him, and one person's view will not change my own. This is all I am going to say.

Countylover,

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. Just related an encounter with Heath. Mostly, in response to another CBA loyalist's attack of another coach.

This was something I was going to keep between my friends and I, but the attack on Coach Robinson was uncalled for.

JW

[outofshape]

Ridiculous.

I critiqued his coaching, as it has to do with the sport.

You attacked Heath as a person. Well, not 'attacked', but you used an encounter to judge him as a person.

I don't know MoHills' coach, and I am not going to attack his personality. He could be the nicest guy in the world, I don't care, my point was that he had them peak at the wrong time.

Again, there is a clear difference, JW.

[King355]

Listen we arn't going to agree, I know what the situation is with MH, besides just looking in the results. You don't. I'm of the same line of thought that countylover is.

[78Champ]

Ridiculous.

I critiqued his coaching, as it has to do with the sport.

You attacked Heath as a person. Well, not 'attacked', but you used an encounter to judge him as a person.

I don't know MoHills' coach, and I am not going to attack his personality. He could be the nicest guy in the world, I don't care, my point was that he had them peak at the wrong time.

Why don't you wait until their season is over before judging his coaching ability?

If they run very well at NTN, I doubt that you will mea culpa. More likely just make excuses for CBA's poor performance.

JW

[outofshape]

I don't need anyone to agree with me. As I see it, they peaked at the wrong time, which falls on their coach. My opinion. I believe they won't run well at NTN, which I brought up in response to the posts predicting MoHills will run close with CBA. This is my own prediction, which I am allowed. I did not mean to bring up a heated argument, but for some reason JW decided it was necessary to not keep his situation among his friends and felt he needed to bring up a situation with Heath...having not very much to do with the sport except that it was at an XC meet, but even that fact has nothing to do with the purpose of his post, to argue with me. Very different situations, perhaps a misunderstanding on the part of JW. Now this post has very little to do with the sport...I'll end here. You guys know my opinion/prediction, that's all I wanted to get across before the nonsense started.

[King355]

"If they run very well at NTN, I doubt that you will mea culpa. More likely just make excuses for CBA's poor performance."

That is probably true. Even IF MH was 5th and CBA was 6th, MH would likely not get credit for being a better team, people would recognize CBA as just having a bad race, and not admitting MH had a bad race at MOC and may have been better all along.

[outofshape]

Why don't you wait until their season is over before judging his coaching ability?

If they run very well at NTN, I doubt that you will mea culpa. More likely just make excuses for CBA's poor performance.

JW

It's a PREDICTION JW, this is a forum, where people discuss the sport and make predictions, state opinions, etc. I am not one to bring up personal situations.

If CBA does not run well, my prediction would be wrong. It happens. Don't expect excuses from me, as you have nothing to base that on.

[78Champ]

Very different situations, perhaps a misunderstanding on the part of JW.

No...I didn't misunderstand anything. My post served it's intended purpose, as I told one else privately.

Have a good night.

JW

[outofshape]

Well then I assume you understand you brought up your situation with Heath to combat my argument that MoHills' coach had them peak at the wrong time. I hope you also understand that I was discussing the sport while you brought up the character of a man, and I would assume most people understand that was uncalled for.

[Gator]

For those who think MH should not go to the NTN, here are the best Holmdel times this year for MH and CBA:

Rogers, Kevin 12 CBA 15:52
Horel, Chris 12 CBA 15:53
Soloff, Kyle JR MORRIS HILLS 16:03
Decker, Jayson SR MORRIS HILLS 16:10
Rodkewitz, Brandon SR MORRIS HILLS 16:11
Labar, Jared SR MORRIS HILLS 16:13
Leach, Greg 12 CBA 16:18
Lombardi, Chris 11 CBA 16:25
Uhrynowich, Ryan SR MORRIS HILLS 16:42
Wheat, Justin 12 CBA 16:45
Pellegrino, Anthony 11 CBA 16:49

With a little luck, MH could have been the MOC champion. I hardly call a lost shoe and a medical condition peaking at the wrong time.


As far as Heath goes, he doesn't know who I am, but when I wished him and his team good luck before the race, he was quick to acknowledge me.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

There were witnesses. And this ONE INSTANCE is not out of character for him.

And I can say with certainty, that I would not pick Heath. I was pretty satisfied with the coach I had and his "skills".

JW

I was standing right there with JW. It happened exactly as he reported it. Is it a condemnation of the man? No, but it was totally classless. We've all done worse, but when you win, when you perform the way CBA did that day, it should be easy to be magnanimous.

[dwacox]

[QUOTE=King355

That is probably true. Even IF MH was 5th and CBA was 6th, MH would likely not get credit for being a better team, people would recognize CBA as just having a bad race, and not admitting MH had a bad race at MOC and may have been better all along.[/QUOTE]





Just out of curiosity If this was the case who would you vote NJ team of the year IMO we can argue many thing but one based on head to head meetings and the biggest one being at the MOC is that CBA preformed better(for whatever the reason) NTN is icing on the cake it is what it is (copyright King99)

[Bennett]

Both of you went down quite a few notches in my book.
One - It's loud, he might of heard you wrong.
Two - Maybe he did hear you and was busy with 10,000 things on his mind
Three - Maybe he heard you and did not wave back or smile or run over and hug you. Big deal. If I was coach I would have one thing on my mind - getting to my athletes, tunnelvision.
As for saying he is classless - that was over the line for me. I'd say more but here is not the place.

I thought, incorrectly, that you guys were better than this.

Bennett

[fishbone]

exactly..2 good teams are going to NTN. no need to trash teams or coaches

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Both of you went down quite a few notches in my book.
One - It's loud, he might of heard you wrong.
Two - Maybe he did hear you and was busy with 10,000 things on his mind
Three - Maybe he heard you and did not wave back or smile or run over and hug you. Big deal. If I was coach I would have one thing on my mind - getting to my athletes, tunnelvision.
As for saying he is classless - that was over the line for me. I'd say more but here is not the place.

I thought, incorrectly, that you guys were better than this.

Bennett


I didn't know you thought anything of me. We don't know each other do we, and have only just "met" on here?
he heard us - he looked right at JW when he congratulated Heath;
I NEVER said Heath was classless; I said that not answering was classless. There is a big difference, and I think you probably know that. I also specifically said I wasn't condemning him. I also said that we have all done worse.
As anyone on here can tell you, I am the biggest supporter of Catholic high school education and the athletic system on this board. I have been in arguments on here against what seemed to be the entire Dyestat "world" about it. Due to that, I am a big CBA supporter and was rooting for them at MOC and will continue to do so. However, I am not blind and unable to see things when they are right in front of me. The fact that you cannot make room for someone you support and like doing something that is a bit out of line is naive. You have something that you want to say to me that is so over the top that it cannot be said on here simply because I coroborated a factual incident? PM me then and call me what you want.

Then you'll go down a few notches in my book and I don't want that to happen. We are on the same "side"!

[King355]

Dwa, CBA would probably get the nod for team of the year, although if say MH was 5th and they were 6th, it would solidify my thoughts of who was better all year. My point is I agree with the thought that if MH runs bad they were poorly coached, while if CBA runs bad it will most likely be attributed to the idea of them not focusing on it, and if MH beats them they probably won't the credit they deserve, becuase people think that them not running 16:20 at groups when they crushed the field easily shows that they were flattening out, when I believe Labar and Uhrynowich proved at MOC this was not the case.

[king99]

aye aye aye , at least some play on this.Tons of posts

For C Bennett:

Your loyalties and well placed , and rightfully strong. Ask Jim Lambert how they did or did not respond to post race media stuff., in light of Friday Preview, that would be interesting.

A bit trivial , but because Jim dared to pick Mo Hills, I wonder if he was as well received as when the usual glowing reports were done over the years.

I have no info on that, just wondering.

On another note, I walked down the hill from top with Coach Heath, I identified myself as a Morris Hill supporter and told him he had clearly won and congratulated them, he did not know that yet, and was very gracious, he expressed concern and seemingly dissappointment for Rodkiewtiz and he clearly knew how good he was.

On another OTHER note, I have said "nice race " to him more than 5 other times clearly within ear shot and was ignored.

However 4 of 5 were in crowded noisy areas, I do not think he knows me or cares who I am, nor should he.

Their program speaks for itself.

On ONE other note..to any who think Mo Hills "peaked " early

Now that that season is over I will comment:

Morris Hills trained very hard week of groups, just like they did last year, IN the END, they got exactly what they needed and then some from 4 and 5 , that is evidence of PEAKING correctly, not other way around.

You cannot predict a "thrown shoe" or other issue.

Soloff ran within 6 of his best , and may have felt more comfortable out on edge with Decker and Rodky in tow, as they were ALL year. No excuses, more of a logical feel for how they approach things, so I know the dynamic.

The results are in and over, as folks said,CBA is 3-0 over last two years to date.

That's it from me.Personally, I hope CBA runs well, and Mo Hills does well also, it will validate NE excellance and selection process.

[Grote]

Bennett, some great posts here lately, although MH was within sight of P-burg, just 11 points actually. I agree with your points on Heath...another could just be that he was tired...I've never seen him get down the hill to the finish as soon as he did at MoC. If he had to stop and talk to everybody, he'd never get to coach. And while the work for the day was done, I'm sure there was still some coaching done that day. He's pretty serious, focused and intense. I've said hi to him and been ignored at times, too, while other times he recognizes me.

Grote

[78Champ]

Both of you went down quite a few notches in my book.
One - It's loud, he might of heard you wrong.
Two - Maybe he did hear you and was busy with 10,000 things on his mind
Three - Maybe he heard you and did not wave back or smile or run over and hug you. Big deal. If I was coach I would have one thing on my mind - getting to my athletes, tunnelvision.
As for saying he is classless - that was over the line for me. I'd say more but here is not the place.

I thought, incorrectly, that you guys were better than this.

Bennett

I could quote Derrick Coleman but here is not the place.

JW

[King355]

Grote

"although MH was within sight of P-burg, just 11 points actually"

MH had 100, P burg 156, am I misunderstanding this?

[D_Gordon]

I find it ridiculous to claim that MoHills peaked at the wrong time because they set a few course records throughout the year. They had the same average at MoC as at groups while essentially losing their #3 runner and having another runner lose his shoe. Is this peaking early?

Do the math -- if MoHills didn't have this kind of bad luck on that day, it would have been very close. None of this is to take anything away from CBA -- they ran a great race and, by time on Holmdel, are the best team in New Jersey history. If MoHills runs well -- not even runs well -- doesn't have the same ridiculous bad luck as on the 19th, it will be very close between MoHills and CBA at NTN, and both teams will finish very high up. Can either win? I don't know -- York is rightfully a big favorite.

[king99]

you were doing okay until last 6 words

I would right now , back to a wall, pick Royal. it is fairly easy for me to benchmark their effort off AJ Acosta performance amd they would have put 4 under 16 at Holmdel. and that is absurd.

[scott c]

Why don't you wait until their season is over before judging his coaching ability?

If they run very well at NTN, I doubt that you will mea culpa. More likely just make excuses for CBA's poor performance.

JW

What does Morris Hills running well have to do with a CBA bad day? Since when are they mutually exclusive?

[D_Gordon]

Yeah, I've been out of the loop this weekend and didn't see the California stuff until after I made that post. Royal could definitely be right there. 4 under 16 at Holmdel probably means averaging under 16, especially with their spread. And yes, that is absurd. (But what assumptions are you using to get this?)

I'm hoping for 4 NE teams in the top 10 -- any region that gets two wildcards, especially the one I'm from and am a big fan of, better prove it deserves them. This goes double for the team that bombed at the biggest meet of the year and still got one. (Regardless of circumstances, that's what happened.)

[outofshape]

I feel like MoHills ran their faster mid-season. They didn't run faster at groups, not that they had to...and I'm discounting MOC because it was such a crazy/unfortunate race for them. So maybe I'm lacking solid evidence, but I will be shocked if MoHills runs faster at NTN than they looked in the middle of the season....shocked, but happy for them and happy that they represented NJ well. Again, I'm just not sure what kind of shape they could be in right now after MOC. It had to be draining physically and emotionally. Are they all patched up or what?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Let me ask you a question. As good as CBA is and as fast as they ran last week, considering how late it is in the season, do you expect them to run faster at NTN than they did at MOC?

[king99]

Look , this is all very nice, and the race was run.

But "outofshape":

Do this math only.

If Decker gets a 16:05 from his effort, and Rodkiewitz "only" runs the 16:30, which is the slowest of his last 4 Holmdel races over two years

Do the 5 man avg. and do the re-score.

That is all.

I am looking for nothing, it is only what folks are trying and I think legitamately explain to you.

Do not even give Brandon his 16:10 X PR, or Decker what may have been by far his finest effort day wise.

Maybe even better than that 16:05 I projected,

Try running rugged Holmdel with one shoe..I do not even run it with TWO!! :D

[outofshape]

I think it was smart of CBA to wait to race relatively late in the season. I don't know if they'll run faster, but they are in good shape and have been training for NTN, so I think they will run a similar time. I think they ran to their full potential at MOC, which would be hard to do again, but I think they are well prepared.

[king99]

D Gordon? Want to hear my logic?

A J Acosta is a FL repeater type and a Cal. State Champ beating good guys in 15:15 out in Cali.

He was 9th as a Junior at FL nats I believe

Would he run that at Holmdel? NO, I don;t think he is that good.

But would he run faster than a Non FL Q'ers Forys or Massam

You would kind of HAVE to give him that? Right?

So give him 15:30, maybe even faster, the lower you make it the better Roal will look.

Royal's # 4 ran 15:42, so add 15 to everyone on loose conversion , remember it MAY have been more as Acosta is pretty darn good

and Royal puts 4 under 16, with 5 at 16:08

YIKES!!!!!!

[scott c]

Let me ask you a question. As good as CBA is and as fast as they ran last week, considering how late it is in the season, do you expect them to run faster at NTN than they did at MOC?

I say they perform just as well if not better at NTN.

Look through the years and you will find that CBA runs its best race of the year at MOC 99% of the time. This year NTN has been the ultimate goal all along for these guys, just like MOC in the past. While obviously the kids are going to get more charged up for something as head-to-head as the CBA-MH showdown, training-wise they will be at their best on Dec. 3.

I did a story for the day of MOC on the training schedules of the teams (CBA, CN girls) and individuals (Tauro, Bri J, Forys) that expected their seasons to continue past the MOC. Heath was very forthcoming with info and bascially said that the schedule was skewed back a couple of weeks.

SC

[outofshape]

Look , this is all very nice, and the race was run.

But "outofshape":

Do this math only.

If Decker gets a 16:05 from his effort, and Rodkiewitz "only" runs the 16:30, which is the slowest of his last 4 Holmdel races over two years

Do the 5 man avg. and do the re-score.

That is all.

I am looking for nothing, it is only what folks are trying and I think legitamately explain to you.

Do not even give Brandon his 16:10 X PR, or Decker what may have been by far his finest effort day wise.

Maybe even better than that 16:05 I projected,

Try running rugged Holmdel with one shoe..I do not even run it with TWO!! :D


I understand most of MoHills ran great at MOC...but they didn't pull through, due to circumstances out of their control. It's part of racing, and therefore I am discounting the race in my predictions.

Now, due to the fact that he did run with one shoe, what kind of shape is he in now? I heard he was limping after the race? What kind of training has Rodk(sp?) been able to put in?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I say they perform just as well if not better at NTN.

Look through the years and you will find that CBA runs its best race of the year at MOC 99% of the time. This year NTN has been the ultimate goal all along for these guys, just like MOC in the past. While obviously the kids are going to get more charged up for something as head-to-head as the CBA-MH showdown, training-wise they will be at their best on Dec. 3.

I did a story for the day of MOC on the training schedules of the teams (CBA, CN girls) and individuals (Tauro, Bri J, Forys) that expected their seasons to continue past the MOC. Heath was very forthcoming with info and bascially said that the schedule was skewed back a couple of weeks.

SC

I do not have the benefit of being able to read the Press - is the article on line somewhere?

[king99]

Rodkiewitz resumed running on the long run on Sunday right after MOC

Decker on Tuesday. or wednesday

at this point in year 2 days off will help you more than hurt you after running 9-10 5Ks in a season.

Actually Labar and Uhrynowich continue to improve and Soloff is at least as good as he was and is a tough guy anyway!!

[King355]

"I understand most of MoHills ran great at MOC...but they didn't pull through, due to circumstances out of their control. It's part of racing, and therefore I am discounting the race in my predictions."

If most of them ran great at MOC, and due to circumstances out of their control two of the top 6 were not able to compete at their extremely high level, I think you can agree to say they were coached poorly is out of line and foolish.

[king99]

need to surround part of that second piece with quotes or something, as it is it makes little sense!!

[Grote]

Ooops, sorry on the post...my bad, I left immediately after boys race Saturday, never saw results, and had the longest Saturday of my life, which ended at 4:30 AM on Tuesday following drives to and from Terre Haute. Its all really a blur, and somewhere along the way I got the idea from somebody that P-burg scored 111. Oops again.

Grote

[King355]

It happens, I was just curious as to whether I knew what you were talking about or not...it's all good.

[GeorgieTheK]

great pissing match here, fellas.

a couple of points:

1. MH is deserving of the bid, and will run well at NTN. will they beat CBA? i don't know, you don't know, no one knows. What we do know if that if both teams run to their potential - it will be extremely close - and they'll both be very near the top. if either team has an off day - that's a different story. CBA's a bit more immune to having their #5 run poorly, since the 6 and 7 are so close, but who knows. Add up PRs, make course conversions, what-have-you. If they both run well it's close.

2. Heath doesn't need defending from me. His record speaks for itself. His runners love him. If you don't like him for things he did or did not do, real or taken the wrong way, fine. But I don't see any point in coming on here and bashing him.

3. Get your facts straight Grote!!!!! :)

[outofshape]

Tell me why it's necessary to bring up that situation with Heath then. I think his intention was pretty clear.

[78Champ]

It seems like this forum hates to hear negative things about anybody, but MoHills was coached poorly. They peaked at the wrong time, plain and simple.

After you explain why this was necessary. Your post was fine until this personal attack on the coach.

JW

[Joe Lanzalotto]

WHOA, hold on a minute. I do not recall anyone saying that one or the other of these two coaches would be better than the other one. I certainly never said that and never will.

We would all be better off not trying to guess other people's motives since none of us can get inside the poster's head. His intention wasn't pretty clear. No one knows what his intention was.

[outofshape]

After you explain why this was necessary. Your post was fine until this personal attack on the coach.

JW

JW I don't know Coach Robinson. I have nothing against him. I respect him for having a fast team. I have no reason to post anything negative about him as a person. I said he didn't have his team peak at the right time. It's my opinion. I never said anything that pertained to him as a person. You, on the other hand, brought up an instance that had little to do with the sport. In my case, I did nothing wrong, simply discussed the sport. In your case, you brought up something personal, something that has to do with Heath as a person. Do you get it, JW? I posted this about four times and this is the final time. You seem to be the only one not to grasp this concept.

The intent of my post was this: MoHills will not run close to CBA at NTN. My prediction, to which I am entitled.

Please explain to me how your story about Heath had anything to do with anything on this forum.

I will say this JW-I apologize to you, and well, that's about it, for any possible way my posts can be interpreted as an insult, because that was not my intent.

[GeorgieTheK]

It seems like this forum hates to hear negative things about anybody, but MoHills was coached poorly. They peaked at the wrong time, plain and simple.

After you explain why this was necessary. Your post was fine until this personal attack on the coach.

JW

JW -

i don't think he engaged in a personal attack on the coach. i don't agree with him - i think MH peaked well (and peaked perfectly last year).

but i can't see how pointing out that a team was poorly coached, or peaked too soon (even if his analysis is incorrect) is a personal attack.

Personally, I think folks should go back and delete posts from this thread. What was suppossed to be a thread about MH snagging a wildcard berth has turned into a petty disagreement about who you'd like to go to the prom with.

[78Champ]

JW I don't know Coach Robinson. I have nothing against him. I respect him for having a fast team. I have no reason to post anything negative about him as a person. I said he didn't have his team peak at the right time. It's my opinion. I never said anything that pertained to him as a person. You, on the other hand, brought up an instance that had little to do with the sport. In my case, I did nothing wrong, simply discussed the sport. In your case, you brought up something personal, something that has to do with Heath as a person. Do you get it, JW? I posted this about four times and this is the final time. You seem to be the only one not to grasp this concept.

The intent of my post was this: MoHills will not run close to CBA at NTN. My prediction, to which I am entitled.

Please explain to me how your story about Heath had anything to do with anything on this forum.

I will say this JW-I apologize to you, and well, that's about it, for any possible way my posts can be interpreted as an insult, because that was not my intent.

My apologies to Coach Heath and anyone else that my have been offended by my post, including you.

However, your last paragraph (the one I quoted) was in no way, shape or form, an opinion. It was stated as fact, "plain and simple". That is why I believe it is offensive.

JW

[78Champ]

JW -

i don't think he engaged in a personal attack on the coach.

I disagree.

JW

[outofshape]

Well I can tell you, JW, I did not personally attack their coach, I never intended to, and nobody read it that way except you. And yes, it was an opinion...it was obviously not a fact. To be honest, I didn't even pay attention to the words 'plain and simple'. So do me a favor, don't read too much into my posts, I don't have ill intentions, just a fan of the sport who likes to make predictions.

[king99]

personal attack? ehhh...not too bad I guess

I am not one to mess(or critique publicly) with coaching techniques too much.

A coach can sometimes get too much credit for good stuff, and waaaayyy too much for under performance.

I think you happened to be wrong on Coach Robinson who if not for two whacky things at MOC THIS year, would have most likely had Morris Hills run their best/or close to it at MOC 3 years in a row, and clearly that aint easy to do.



They went 9-2-2 last 3 years.. with really low numbers of kids, and believe me he tries to attract them, and it ain;t easy in a bordeline II/III filp flop school.

Coach Robinson is one of the most energetic, positive, influencial motivators I have seen.

He is outright revered by kids that have run for him, and in today's world that is not an easy thing to have happen,and is very refreshing for me to see.

[Kniteryder]

Personally, I hope CBA runs well, and Mo Hills does well also, it will validate NE excellance and selection process.


My thoughts exactly...now lets ALL cheer on the top teams from our very much deserved stat to go on and "woop some tail" @ NTN!!!

Good Luck to both CBA & MH!!! :)

[Bennett]

So, not to beat a dead horse, but, you have to admit if you could beat a dead horse you would if for no other reason than to say you beat a dead horse...I stray...

When I wrote to Joe and JW that "I could write more but here is not the place" I did not mean I wanted to drop F-Bombs and argue violently :mad: . I simply felt that this forum was above the nasty letsrun.com. :) I also should let you know that I'm not into the whole "you can private message me" taunt. Seems like the 00's version of "we can step outside" except there is no outside only some cyberworld rap off or soemthing. I am a computer illiterate so I would lose.

Yes Joe I don't know you but I have read many of the posts on here and they are almost always interesting and knowledgeable.

So, horse is dead and now beaten.

George, I feel the need to antagonize you a bit on all my posts because you are smarter than me. :rolleyes: So, here goes: What happened to your boy Kevin Jermyn's dookies? (Kevin is an AWESOME GUY)

As for MH and CBA....completely fantastic. Anyone who says that MH was not ready for MOC flat out wrong. Watch out.

And lastly, Grote...oh my sweet precious Grote. I'm just glad you noticed me. You had me at hello. ;)

These faces are stupid but I am addicted. I can't stop.
CB

[Grote]

Indeed Bennett...indeed. Anyway, how about beating/kicking a dead deer instead of a dead horse? Although better when its colder and they aren't as smelly? There are lots of those around these parts. As for the Dookies and Kevin Jermyn (by the way how do these dudes our age get these jobs???)...careful as a fellow CBA alum and Tar Heel will soon wed the top Dookie and return to the Garden State...

Grote

[Bennett]

Not sure how they get it but they are all doing a great job -KJ, Vig, Schumaker is a young cat too. Buthe has to watch his back with the green monster stirring to life in Eugene. :eek:

[GeorgieTheK]

George, I feel the need to antagonize you a bit on all my posts because you are smarter than me. :rolleyes: So, here goes: What happened to your boy Kevin Jermyn's dookies? (Kevin is an AWESOME GUY)



probably learned it from his college coach. :D we had the unique ability to really step-down our game when it came to NC's in cross. some ugly ones in there...and another performance this year worthy of the tradition.

[Bennett]

Leave big Poppa alone. :p


I'm gonna have breakfast with him next week I hope.

[PJOMAX]

Indeed Bennett...indeed. Anyway, how about beating/kicking a dead deer instead of a dead horse? Although better when its colder and they aren't as smelly? There are lots of those around these parts. As for the Dookies and Kevin Jermyn (by the way how do these dudes our age get these jobs???)...careful as a fellow CBA alum and Tar Heel will soon wed the top Dookie and return to the Garden State...

Grote
Wasn't he a Bull Dog, not a Tar Heel or did I miss something? He was a Seraph before he was a Colt! :)

[GeorgieTheK]

Leave big Poppa alone. :p


I'm gonna have breakfast with him next week I hope.

i hope he's paying.

say hello to the big guy for me. tell him i made good. that'll get a good laugh out of him.

[Scotty]

The answers to this rubbish ARE:

MH did NOT peak too soon. Only one of the scorers was "off" on successive weeks at the end. They were certainly ready to go.

Heath is by almost all accounts a good guy. He is not running for office, and cannot be expected to be engaging with every person that says hello, especially when half of them are strangers. If he DID throw JW an ungracious expression, he was wrong to do so.

Coaches never run a step. They do all they can, but it is ultimately up to runners to get the job done. Those of you who have spent yrs competing, as did I, know how it works out there.....it is VERY difficult to "step up" week after week. Sometimes, you crack.