random question

[kmc333]

why do some runners(Adam Perkins) say to put water in your cereal, as opposed to milk? is it also wrong to drink milk with a meal?

[ccrunner101]

why do some runners(Adam Perkins) say to put water in your cereal, as opposed to milk? is it also wrong to drink milk with a meal?

My guess would be that it would only be bad to have milk if you are going to be running sometime withing the next 4-5 hours. Milk takes a long time to digest. Milk has lots of protein and calcium which I would think would be good for you a little while after a workout.

[TJ]

hmmm.....interesting

[ryantrack2]

The theory behind the water in cereal is based on an ancient diet belief called traphology (sp?). The belief is you only mix certain food groups based on the vitamins and minerals found in those foods. I believe it is based on your body's ability to process a limited amount of each vitamin and mineral and when certain vitamins or minerals mix in your stomach, you're body doesn't get everything out of them. I can't remember all the specifics, but milk and cereal is one example. Another is spaghetti and meatballs. Perkins does a presentation on it at Ramsey's summer running camp in Colorado.

[barton_hurdler]

Another question:

I heard that you should take "cool" showers compared to long hot showers. Any truth behind it?

[PF1]

When distances races are run early in the day, I have seen quite a few milk-and-cereal breakfasts left out on the track.

[jerrry]

I think your body gets used to what it is used to. When I was a kid, we played all day - ran in the house - gulped down some food w/ milk - and continued to play (with no bad side effects).

As a runner, I can run within 2 hours of a big meal...only because that's what I've gotten used to. A lot of people who run over their luch hour run on no food, etc. So I don't think there is a rule on any of this. What I think is when a person is a great runner they can mis-associate the cause of what makes them good and therefore say anything...I mean if Adam Perkins said he slept 14 hours a day would we all think - oh, that's the secret. Distance runner did this kind of false prophecy for years when the Kenyans first started to dominate the world.

I think Mike Regan put it best when he said the secret is there is no secret.
Unlike some other sports there is no luck in running say a 4:00 mile. You don't just throw up a lucky shot, or have a magical hole-in-one swing. You either have done the pysiological work + genetic talent you bring to the table or you haven't. If you have - you'll probably be good, if you haven't you won't. You want to know what the biggest limiting factor of running ability is...it's not milk, it's not 14 hours of sleep.........it is running injuries. Go back and look at the almost sub 4:00 mile list - almost everyone of those guys who got close, but didn't make it - did not make it because injuries kept them from it.

Be smart, be healthy, set goals, train, but rest too. And don't expect to get great overnight, and don't expect to find a magic bullet...if that is what you are really looking for and you don't mind cheating and doing damage to your body in the long-term ...well, I think you see where I'm going.

[BHSList]

I heard that drinking milk gave you a lot of crap in you throught

[ccrunner101]

throught

lol

[cj456]

cereal with water sounds pretty undelicious

anyways i love milk

[scooter]

cereal with water sounds pretty undelicious

anyways i love milk

i would have to agree with that.

[thsrunner06]

I can't remember, but I thought that SMNW Boys XC team has won like 11 state titles in a row. Just checking if it is true. I know someone on here knows this for sure.

[scooter]

sadly enough it's true. they have a strong tradition as well as extremely strong support from the alumni. their streak will definitely continue for awhile.

[KS Roadrunna]

Yes & 14 out of the last 16 years!! Their girls have won quite a few in that time also.

Here's the question of the day for anyone around here. Who won the 6a '88 state x-c meet & was runner up in '89... & what school was he from? Bonus... who & from where... were the # 1 & 3 guys in the '89 meet.

[scooter]

i'll take a stab at McGinn because i dont know anyone else and i know emporia won the team title so that's what i based it on. sorry if i was way off on your years Kevin.

[bdaniels]

why do some runners(Adam Perkins) say to put water in your cereal, as opposed to milk? is it also wrong to drink milk with a meal?

Ryan Wilson was fairly accurate with his response. It's all based on Eastern Medicine, and they have very strong belief that specific diets have a direct effect on your bodily chemistry/homeostasis, especially when it comes to health. Along with that comes the belief that certain foods should be cominded and certain foods should not be combined. So it's just not about "what you eat", it's also about "how you eat." So to them, fruit and vegetables are "healthy" foods, but they do not think that it is as healthy to eat them during the same meal.

If you're seriously wanting to know about this, I'd recommend that you ask Adam or Coach Ramsey about it yourself (e.g., come to camp this year). They make it pretty simple to understand, and they've done the research on it (i.e., Adam a massive research project on the subject during his senior year project). You may find the food combination chart at: http://www.brocawblazers.org/coaching%20education/coaching_education_index.htm. The foundation of the diet comes from the book by Daniel P. Reid, The Tao of Health, Sex, & Longevity (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067164811X/qid=1116205869/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/102-1129401-1512922?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), a book that gives a Western perspective of the Eastern logic of the diet.

Adam's intention for it was to keep off as much extra weight as possible. He still does it, so I'd assume that it works for him, though, I've never needed to do it myself. Today, I ate Lucky Charms and milk and then I had Milk and Chocolate Chip Cookies afterward. So if you're trying to keep off weight like Adam, you might say that it's "wrong" to eat cereal and milk. But if you are like me and eat out of enjoyment, there's going to be milk in your Lucky Charms every single time. Adam's diet just seems to be a natural option to stay at a desirable weight.

I would never put it in terms of "right" and "wrong" because everyone's situation is unique and different; there's not really an objective "this is right and this is wrong" type of answer. For instance, my current weight is the same as it was during my sophomore year of high school. I don't disagree with Adam's diet because I definitely think it's valid (i.e., being a scientifically oriented type of person) and because I would do it if I was him. And also, probably because he was one of those guys that I could never beat. His high school teammate, Josh Davis (currently of the University of Missouri), was also very particular about his diet. But on the other hand, Matt and Marc Tegenkamp never seemed to pay as much attention to their diet as the other the two Liberty guys; the Tegenkamps' clearly ate whatever they wanted to (so maybe it's a Lee's Summit, MO thing). And Matt is pretty good himself, just like Adam.

But, Coach Ramsey would obviously use the logical argument, "How much better could you Lee's Summit, MO guys have been if you were using Adam's style of dieting?" So, you could say that Coach Ramsey and Adam use it to "maximize" on running performance, which would obviously give you a greater chance of winning, while staying "heathly" as they definite the word health. You know,
people always bring up the point that it's weird or whatever, but I guess it doesn't matter whether people think you're weird or not when you're running that fast. So then, I guess, you have to determine whether it's more important for people to think that you are not weird or whether to maximize on your performance or not.

And personally, I believe that your own beliefs and intentions have the most effect on your diet and on everything else you do. For instance, when I first heard about the classic "no-carb" diet I never really understood what it was all about. Although, I wanted to "gain" weight at that time, so I choose to do so by doing the "no-carb" diet, and surprisingly I actually gained about 15 pounds. No kidding... Afterwards, I actually read about what the no-carb diet was intended for, so it was a bit of an, "Oops!" So, I think each individual must find out what works for him or herself and avoid searching for an objective, "this is right and this is wrong", type of answer to their diet concerns. Adam's diet is just one of many options out there. If it was absolutely wrong to eat milk with your cereal, then I'm sure 85% of all the people in the world would be well over 400 pounds by now including myself; think about it...

B

[KS Roadrunna]

i'll take a stab at McGinn because i dont know anyone else and i know emporia won the team title so that's what i based it on. sorry if i was way off on your years Kevin.

Too early for McGinn.... nice try though.

anyone else? It's not easy, I'll give you that.

[Rome]

It bothers me when people think that having milk or not having milk with your cereal will bother you when it comes race time....if you were meant to run the mile in 4:40 on a certain day you wouldn't run 4:32 just because you had water instead of milk. I'm not saying it's not an interesting subject...but anyone who banks on things like this to help their performances are crazy if you ask me.


this isn't meant to offend anyone, just that some people are way too anal for their own good

[bdaniels]

It bothers me when people think that having milk or not having milk with your cereal will bother you when it comes race time....if you were meant to run the mile in 4:40 on a certain day you wouldn't run 4:32 just because you had water instead of milk. I'm not saying it's not an interesting subject...but anyone who banks on things like this to help their performances are crazy if you ask me.


this isn't meant to offend anyone, just that some people are way too anal for their own good

Yeah, I understand that position about the subject.

A major part of the logic behind the whole Adam Perkins diet is that you keep off needless weight by a natural means, and consequently, you become a more efficient runner. As you may know, the Brocaw Blazers program is all about maximizing on efficiency, especially in training. So it's the belief that the more efficient you become as a person, the more you can improve as a runner. But, they won't say anything like, "that if you eat milk with your cereal, then you'll run 4:40 instead of 4:32 on a given day." Coach Ramsey just always asks, "How much faster can you run?", which seems legit mentality to me if you're trying to maximizing your potential. I'd always ask myself that question during practices and even during races. So on a deeper level of understanding, the question just challanges your current belief system (which may be frightening to many people), and those who actually apply the question are often shocked at the results.

Coach Bill Bowerman made the same point with the University of Oregon team and Steve Prefontaine's shoes by customizing the shoes on a waffle iron (e.g., as seen in the movie Without Limits). Bowerman felt that traditional running shoes carried too much extra weight and that by trimming that weight off you could increase the efficiency of the runner. He seemed to have calculated that by using traditional shoes, a runner was carring X-Amount of pounds that he or she didn't need to carry around the track. Things like that seem strange, but I guess everyone has their niche. Their positions seem practical from a scientific standpoint at least.

And even more interesting the recent SEC 1500M Champion, Simon Ngata, once told me that in Kenya there is more of a stress on eating natural/organic foods (i.e., from the ground, I'd assume). He thought that Americans were eating too much unnatural food and I remember him being very picky to sparingly eat American food, if any at all. I tried some of the food they prefer in Kenya (e.g., a meal called Ngali) and the food tasted pretty bland to me, so I guess they don't have Lucky Charms in Kenya yet. By the way, Adam finished 0.30 seconds behind Simon to take second in the SEC 1500M and he also finished just behind Simon in the 5K as well. So, maybe Simon pours Gatorade in his cereal instead of water...

So yeah, it's a very interesting subject.

B

[KS Roadrunna]

Probably not, because Gatorade actually can taste good & we can't have that now can we.

The most important thing someone can do in their diet is stay away from Pop. Other than that, You're a runner.... if you're maintaining a healthy weight, then It shouldn't matter too much what you're eating as long as it's not all junk. It just seems to me that this type of preaching can push a lot of people to eating disorders pretty easily.

I've seen some comments on Alan Webb's diet, maybe Ramsey should tell him he needs to straighten up.

[Jayhawk]

It bothers me when people think that having milk or not having milk with your cereal will bother you when it comes race time....if you were meant to run the mile in 4:40 on a certain day you wouldn't run 4:32 just because you had water instead of milk. I'm not saying it's not an interesting subject...but anyone who banks on things like this to help their performances are crazy if you ask me.


this isn't meant to offend anyone, just that some people are way too anal for their own good

This is very true, even when it comes to stuff people do before their races, and believe me I've done just about everything. With all the different stuff I've done the day/week/hour before races, trying to make myself nervious, trying to relax, all the above. And I've come to the conclusion that none of it matters. I've had good races doing certain things, and bad races doing the exact same stuff. ITS ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

[KevinM]

Yes & 14 out of the last 16 years!! Their girls have won quite a few in that time also.

Here's the question of the day for anyone around here. Who won the 6a '88 state x-c meet & was runner up in '89... & what school was he from? Bonus... who & from where... were the # 1 & 3 guys in the '89 meet.

Was it Ron Smith? That might be the obvious (and wrong) answer.

[KS Roadrunna]

Ok, I'll let some of it out.

1 Thad Sketers, Wyandotte '88
2
3


1 Tom (can't think of his last name right now), SMNW '89
2 Thad Sketers, Wy '89
3 Mike Carr, Washington '89

[KevinM]

Tom Swanson, who I believe won in 1989 and was second behind Kevin Newkirk in 1990. Newkirk repeated in 1991 (in the road race at Tuttle Creek) before Fein won the next 3.

[KS Roadrunna]

ahh yes, Swanson. (is that the Swanson behind.... Team Swansons?)

[scooter]

The most important thing someone can do in their diet is stay away from Pop.

i haven't had a pop since at least 8th grade. i'm glad i chose to quit. i'm fighting the corporate bastards and staying healthy as a result.

[KevinM]

i haven't had a pop since at least 8th grade. i'm glad i chose to quit. i'm fighting the corporate bastards and staying healthy as a result.

The point in avoiding pop (soda, Coke, whatever you call it in your neck of the woods) is to avoid the extreme amounts of processed sugars in the stuff. The same could be said of pretty much anything that is sweetened. Other than the random chemicals used to make up the syrup, the negative ingredients in "pop" can also be found in any sweetened breakfast cereal or pretty much any off-the-shelf snack. There's definitely some truth to "anything will burn if the furnace is hot enough", but that refers more to calories than the addictive nature of most foods we eat. Stay away from it now. It will make things much easier in the future.

[jerrry]

This is very true, even when it comes to stuff people do before their races, and believe me I've done just about everything. With all the different stuff I've done the day/week/hour before races, trying to make myself nervious, trying to relax, all the above. And I've come to the conclusion that none of it matters. I've had good races doing certain things, and bad races doing the exact same stuff. ITS ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

I agree with both of you...to me the real issue here is who is fooling who. This again goes back to how scientific you want to get on this stuff...to me running as a sport is pretty simply....you train using some combination of workouts (long runs for endurance, steady runs, intervals, and if you want/need some speed development drills). Obviously diet and proper rest are very important.

A few rules I follow are what works for one person may not work for another...(so someone runs 150 miles a week and gets great results does not mean you will) (this diet may help one person and not another) The American food industry is a problem...everything is so over-processed and preserved - and finding good food is something I struggle with. And I believe good food is incredibly important in relation to preformance.

I have spoken with many of the best runner of my day about those presenting these new great ways to train and improve: Fred Torneden, Trey Harrison, Curt Shelman, etc. and we all come to the same conclusion - some of these guys are full of it. because running is simple...there are no magic formulas, secret workouts, or other rituals. There is hard work, desire, a belief in yourself, and some good genes at play. And you should be wary of anyone who tries to make it more complicated than that.

A few things I watch for: the false cause. Sometimes a person run faster and mis-indentifies the cause.

: the false argument. to say "just think of how much better they could be" (referring to the Liberty runners comment by Coach Ramsey) is a way of not proving the original claim.

: the halo effect - if your are doing something you think works...sometimes the positive thinking is what works not the thing (like no milk). To truly test this theory you would have to randomly assign runners to two group and even better use a milk-flavor of some type so the participants couldn't tell which they were in)...now see how it goes.

: a false guru: sometimes a person spends so much time telling you of who they have worked with to try to impress you or they rename everything to try to confuse you that you have no choice, but to listen to them as you feel you know nothing. Well, you know one thing better than anyone else - your own body...you are an experiment...there is no one exact way to train...I view it as a process of trying to figure out what works best by gradually tweeking what I do...

These kind of topic always get me steamed because I see a certain amount of manipulation going on. Young runners want to be the best they can which is good, but aren't sure who to listen to. First listen to yourself - your own common sense...if still not sure - listen to your coach. Most coaches have been around long enough to be able to guide you...and if you are not going to listen to your coach, but instead to all these other people (my self included) why are you at that school. The worst thing happening in our sport is not lack of info - it is too many people not affiliated with the school trying to coach, influence the kids. This is what I want runners to not be fooled by; the false prophets. This is were club sports and summer camps can actually be a bad thing. They get you to start doubting everything - pretty soon you aren't sure what to think or believe - yet you are the one's who are the state's best runners...they should be asking you what you did that worked not the other way around. Think of it this way...if I ran a club during the summer and got all the best runners to attend = an all-star team essentially we would be pretty darn good - that could make it look like I'm some incredible coach who must know what he is doing...but that would be misleading because you were already good before you joined my team for one(so I had little to do with that) and if you are continuing to work hard you should continue to improve despite what I do (as long as my coaching isn't counterproductive). So who's the real expert here?

you get 20 of the best runner in the world in a room together and you'll hear 20 different theories on what works. So which of these 20 are you going to listen to?

[ccrunner101]

Another random question
Hey Tyler did you redshirt outdoor track last year?

[bdaniels]

: the false argument. to say "just think of how much better they could be" (referring to the Liberty runners comment by Coach Ramsey)

Jerry, I don't intend to be too picky, buddy, but the actual quotes used from the following passages were:


But, Coach Ramsey would obviously use the logical argument, "How much better could you Lee's Summit, MO guys have been if you were using Adam's style of dieting?"


And...


Coach Ramsey just always asks, "How much faster can you run?", which seems legit mentality to me if you're trying to maximizing your potential. I'd always ask myself that question during practices and even during races. So on a deeper level of understanding, the question just challanges your current belief system (which may be frightening to many people), and those who actually apply the question are often shocked at the results.

But not what you said:

"just think of how much better they could be"

They are not making a claim as you did in the quote above; it was actually a question. So, they are merely asking an open ended question, which seems fair to me in any situation. Asking a question isn't really making an argument. In fact, Adam's only response to arguments was always, "I'll let my running do the talking!" So, maybe they could be better or maybe it won't make much difference. I think you're implying that Coach Ramsey would say that we Lee's Summit runner's would've been better off doing Adam's diet; that's not correct. So, they aren't really arguing anything.

It's just like logically saying that "maybe you can do better on your mathmatics tests if you get 8 hours of sleep rather than 2 hours of sleep." But, maybe only getting 2 hours of sleep works for some people better than others when it comes to mathematics tests. Or for instance, you may find that a straight-A student constantly asks his/herself, "How much better can I do with my studies?" That definitely seems valid to me if you wish to improve. You know, how can you improve very much if you think you don't think you can do anything better? It's more of asking yourself an honest question rather than an argument; it's not staying that my diet is better than yours or my diet is right and all others are wrong.

I don't think anyone was asking for advice about anything here. The person who orginally started this thread just had a few questions about something that he/she wanted to know about. Maybe it was just a mystery to him/her. I was just answering the questions that were asked, especially the question, "Why do some runners(Adam Perkins) say to put water in your cereal, as opposed to milk?" I think I answered that question in great detail, and I went even further to explain how other "elite" runners view dieting differently (e.g., Matt Tegenkamp and Simon Ngata).

B

[KevinM]

Here's what I took Jerrry's point to be -- and forgive me for putting words in your mouth if I'm incorrect, Jerrry:

There are so many variables out there and so many "proven methods" floating around that at some point the absolute best thing to do is to stop tinkering, decide upon and place faith in a program, and begin dedicating yourself to the long-term process that is distance running.

[jerrry]

It wasn't my intention to misquote...I went back to find it but couldn't so I paraphrased it, but you are correct in that I should not have used " " marks to imply that it was a quote. I still don't think my version was that far off - the statement 'think of how much better they would be' is a response (I called it an argument - because that's was it is....an argument is a postion taken to defend or present one's case) maybe my terminology is outdated or being mis-interpreted - if so I understand and appologize.

My point is I could say that about anything...that imagine how much better we could be if we _____. But truthful that doesn't mean that we would be. That is a shifting the burden type of response/argument/logic. If the person presenting the idea does not have the science/research to back up their claim - they often will use this type of reasoning. And maybe there is science behind this...I'm open to hear it. At this point, the only evidence I've heard is anecdotal (which is very open to a false cause) = meaning that Adam Perkins could be a fast runner for any number of reasons...if the non-milk approach is truly valid it would have to be tested (preferable in a blind test - so that the athletes in the study couldn't affect the outcome).
And for him to say I'll let my running to the talking is exactly my point - he is already fast....so this could be a totally irrelevant cause of it.

Personally, I think the science does not lead the athlete, but the athlete leads the science. Meaning runners like you, me, Adam are the ones out there trialing and erroring...sometimes we may know exactly what worked and sometimes we may not. The science comes along after and tries to verify if what we think caused our improvement can be validated. But until then all we have is individual anecdotes...20 different world class runners with 20 different theories. There is nothing wrong with this. This is what makes sports/running competitive...each person putting it on the line. But when we start telling our ideas/training methods to others (who are highly influential - yound kids) well, I just think they can get too many different conflicting ideas and stop trusting themselves or their HS coaches. This is at least what I have seen. So this is why I challanged these claims/ presented my views of false causes, etc. Any one is welcome to disagree with me - that's the whole point of a discussion/ discussion board.

[bdaniels]

Any one is welcome to disagree with me - that's the whole point of a discussion/ discussion board.

Jerry, I don't disagree with you about anything nor am I saying that I agree with your views either. You bring up some interesting angles on the subject, and I know it wasn't your intention to misquote but when you paraphrased the question you totally took it out of the format of a question by putting it into a statement (i.e., an argument). Yes of course, the statement, 'think of how much better they would be' is an argument which is why I jumped on you about misquoting because it's not Coach Ramsey's intention to argue it. Before I'd turn my math tests in, I'd honestly ask myself, "Is there anything I could do any better on this test?", so you see - I wasn't actually arguing with myself in that instant, now was I?

So, I just wanted to make sure that you didn't read into what I was actually saying. Sometimes people take things too far on message boards like these, which is why I recommended that the original poster ask Coach Ramsey or Adam him or herself (or e.g., read the book that the diet was based on). I'm just meticulous about the use of words as you may already be able to intuit.

My only personal views were, really, that I don't think that there is an objective "right and wrong" answer to dieting (which I tried to depict by showing that Tegenkamp, Perkins, and Ngata are all great runners with different views on dieting) and that internal thought and internal intention seem to be the biggest factors with regulating diet, at least to me. Other than that, I was just trying to answer the question of why Adam Perkins and other runners use the diet that was brought up in particular.

Take It Easy,

B

:p

[eliterun]

My theory on running

I've done a bit of research on types of running over the years, Daniels Running Formula, Lydiard Theory, Lore of Running, etc. and there are good points to all good programs. However, based on how the people were able to get results, and how the current elite runners train, it's my theory that: higher, constant mileage with plenty of tempo runs and long runs, plus some intervals (once a week) to add a bit of speed, turn the intervals to reps late season, and that will be the best possible season.

Other random kinds of comments:
As far as thinking how much better kids could be if they'd done things different, my coach ran in the era of Cris Capps, who had his runners do 20 miles and tons of speedwork, yet the fastest times from NHS are from his era. Why is our coach not getting quite the results the Capps was? First off, we don't have quite the numbers that used to turn out. To be a truly partisan test of training program, you need to have large numbers of people to test things on. Second of all, we've had no commitment to our new coach, at least not 4-year commitments. I'll be one of the first persons to run all 4 years on his kind of program (kind of like my ideal program), and I've run 16:30 so far. The other people who have had commitments to the program: 3yrs commitment, guy ran 17:00 as a junior after running in the summer. 4 yrs commitment, guy ran 16:57 as a senior after running the summer before. 2yrs commitment, guy ran 16:54 as a senior, despite not really running much at all over the summer. 2yrs commitment, guy ran 17:20 as a soph with decent mileage over the summer. Our system obviously needs to be carried out by lots of people (i.e. our current team) to see the results for everyone, with everyone running constantly in the summer.

As far as training programs not being better than others, there are some basics that need to be observed, that if you don't have them will make your program not as good. But after you've done the basics, I think that it's just room for interpretation and individual style as far as which program is the best.

[Jayhawk]

I think your all missing the point, which is that every runner is different and different people need different things out of their training/diet/lifestyle. Even science can't help, every other week it seems like one scientific study is contradicting the one before it. If you want to be a good runner, run alot, and try to run faster. Stay off cement and dont drink, dont do drugs, every thing else is up to you

[jerrry]

well said Jayhawk and I see what you are saying bDaniels. This has been a good discussion - and sometimes we're saying the same thing but with different wording. I think my use of the work argument (which is my fault) has been misunderstood. I teach logic and persuasion so I'm applying that word as a name...I'm not saying coach Ramsey or Adam Perkins is arguing.

I do have a related question for BDaniels...since you are from Missouri you probably know more about this. Where is Adam Perkins going to school or is he? Someone told me he stopped running in HS and runs on his own or something like that. and what school did he run for...was he on the Liberty HS team?

[KS Roadrunna]

Perkins ran for Liberty & was one of the top milers in the country in HS. He now runs for R Kansas

[Jayhawk]

He did quit school his senior year to run in the better meets, so he could break 4:00 in the mile. Then he ran at KU relays and some summer stuff, I dont even think he ran outside of state which is why he had the problem with the Missouri Athletic assosiaiton, Ironic, then he ended up running like 4:10 after publicly declaring he wanted to break 4:00. So that was a big mess, I wonder if he has any regrets about that whole thing. It turned out well though, he is running well at arKANSAS.

[one_more_mile]

He just quit his track team. He didnt quit school. He is running awesome at Arkansas. Adam is a good guy.

[Jayhawk]

I'm not saying he's a bad guy. But you must admit that his senior year was a little crazy.

[Rome]

I don't blame Perkins. A couple years ago I read all the letters that were made available on that Missouri running website (by BDaniels I believe). He went about everything the right way, and if I had a chance to break 4 minutes I woulda done the same thing. I remember reading all that stuff it was very interesting maybe it's still available I have no idea, bdaniels might know...

[Follow Me]

Another random question
Hey Tyler did you redshirt outdoor track last year?

Yes I did, I am a freshman.

As far as this discussion about foods and stuff go, here is my opinion. Over the last few Decades, we continually focus more and more on science to make us better. It seems the more scientific we Americans get, the further we get from the top of the running scene. We have 17 year old africans running times well below our American records.

Do you think Lingren, Ryun, Pre, or any other great American Distance runner cared about water and cereal? What about VO2 max? What about the names of the leg muscles, and stretches? Or proper weightlifting, hurdle mobilitiy, or other drills? Do you think Africans sit there and monitor their diet, while discussiing threshold pace, Lactic Acid, and burnout?

No, they ran. This deserves repeating. They RAN. We wonder why America is slowly getting further and further behind as far as running goes. Its because we take all these scientific terms, methods, formulas, and try to apply them to running to form a foolproof-bow-tied package to make us great. Each idea has scientific research to back it up. We're doing everything we can to make running not about running.

I really don't think the Africans need to worry about their weight when they're plugging away 140 miles a week.

It seems to me that just like overweight people want some special weight-loss pill to magically make them skinning, we're trying everything we can to make ourselves faster by some magic formula. You know what I say to the overweight person? I say, forget the pills, exercise that off. You know what I say to the running scientists? RUN!

This isn't a knock on Adam. Adam is a great guy, and is running really well. I would wager though its not because he eats cereal with water, its because hes putting in the miles.

So in summary............

JUST RUN!

[eliterun]

Do you think Africans sit there and monitor their diet, while discussiing threshold pace, Lactic Acid, and burnout?

No, they ran. This deserves repeating. They RAN. We wonder why America is slowly getting further and further behind as far as running goes. Its because we take all these scientific terms, methods, formulas, and try to apply them to running to form a foolproof-bow-tied package to make us great. Each idea has scientific research to back it up. We're doing everything we can to make running not about running.

I really don't think the Africans need to worry about their weight when they're plugging away 140 miles a week.

You know what I say to the running scientists? RUN!

So in summary............

JUST RUN!

No, Kenyans do intervals, fartleks, tempo runs, etc. Before they did any of those, they were much less prevalent on the national scene. A guy named Colm O'Connol (probably slightly misspelled), an Irish priest, came to Kenya for mission work. That was in the early 80's. Every year since about then he's hosted a junior camp for all available Kenyan talent; if they're good enough he takes them under his wing. hundreds of elite Kenyans have gone through this; this was the event that sparked the running boom in Kenya, not just running. For an article on Kenyans: http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/features/2005/kenyanrunning01.html

For their training program: http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/features/2005/kenyanrunningsidebar.html

As you can see, they don't ignore tempo runs, intervals, etc. They have a fairly structured program.

[KS Roadrunna]

JUST RUN!


Please tell me that's not you. haha

[ryantrack2]

He did quit school his senior year to run in the better meets, so he could break 4:00 in the mile. Then he ran at KU relays and some summer stuff, I dont even think he ran outside of state which is why he had the problem with the Missouri Athletic assosiaiton, Ironic, then he ended up running like 4:10 after publicly declaring he wanted to break 4:00. So that was a big mess, I wonder if he has any regrets about that whole thing. It turned out well though, he is running well at arKANSAS.

The story is a lot deeper than that. I can't explain it all, but basically Adam was invited to run in a few of the larger meets around the country and because of the Missouri high school activity association's travel rules, he would have been unable to run in those meets. He made the decision to train on his own and attempt to run a fast mile by going to a bunch of bigger meets and he did run meets outside of Missouri. There is more to it, but it is not my place to explain it.

[Zat0pek]

Yes I did, I am a freshman.

As far as this discussion about foods and stuff go, here is my opinion. Over the last few Decades, we continually focus more and more on science to make us better. It seems the more scientific we Americans get, the further we get from the top of the running scene. We have 17 year old africans running times well below our American records.

Do you think Lingren, Ryun, Pre, or any other great American Distance runner cared about water and cereal? What about VO2 max? What about the names of the leg muscles, and stretches? Or proper weightlifting, hurdle mobilitiy, or other drills? Do you think Africans sit there and monitor their diet, while discussiing threshold pace, Lactic Acid, and burnout?

No, they ran. This deserves repeating. They RAN. We wonder why America is slowly getting further and further behind as far as running goes. Its because we take all these scientific terms, methods, formulas, and try to apply them to running to form a foolproof-bow-tied package to make us great. Each idea has scientific research to back it up. We're doing everything we can to make running not about running.

I really don't think the Africans need to worry about their weight when they're plugging away 140 miles a week.

It seems to me that just like overweight people want some special weight-loss pill to magically make them skinning, we're trying everything we can to make ourselves faster by some magic formula. You know what I say to the overweight person? I say, forget the pills, exercise that off. You know what I say to the running scientists? RUN!

This isn't a knock on Adam. Adam is a great guy, and is running really well. I would wager though its not because he eats cereal with water, its because hes putting in the miles.

So in summary............

JUST RUN!

This practically brought a tear to my eye. We old schoolers thought we'd never again see the day when the young pups "got it" but this new breed seems to be doing just that. I couldn't have said it better myself. And this attitude is precisely why you ran 29:4x as a frosh.

BTW, I got my invite to come back for the Big XXII (they invited all the past lettermen back for a reunion) but I couldn't make it because of about 20 different family obligations this weekend. Do you know how many or who showed up? Pat Hessini and I traded phone calls and I think he was going to try to make it but I haven't been able to talk to him yet. Just curious as to what the turnout was.

[Follow Me]

No, Kenyans do intervals, fartleks, tempo runs, etc. Before they did any of those, they were much less prevalent on the national scene. A guy named Colm O'Connol (probably slightly misspelled), an Irish priest, came to Kenya for mission work. That was in the early 80's. Every year since about then he's hosted a junior camp for all available Kenyan talent; if they're good enough he takes them under his wing. hundreds of elite Kenyans have gone through this; this was the event that sparked the running boom in Kenya, not just running. For an article on Kenyans: http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/features/2005/kenyanrunning01.html

For their training program: http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/features/2005/kenyanrunningsidebar.html

As you can see, they don't ignore tempo runs, intervals, etc. They have a fairly structured program.


Re-read it, I never said that they don't. In fact, I never even mentioned tempo runs, or intervals. I said they don't sit around discussing Threshold pace, Lactic Acid, and Burn Out.

Ask Ryun or Pre or some 15 year old Kenyan that is whooping up on us Americans what they know about Lactic Acid, and how it works. Ask them what there threshold pace was, and if they were worried if they weren't in the range. Ask them what there VO2 max was at the time. Or how many miles they could run before they burned out.

Although they may have had an idea about these things, you're missing the point. They didn't/don't govern there running by these terms and numbers. They didn't spend there time researching how lactic acid is formed. They ran. So run.

What am I doing on this message board....I should be running!

[one_more_mile]

I agree with Tyler.

[drewliousceasar]

Re-read it, I never said that they don't. In fact, I never even mentioned tempo runs, or intervals. I said they don't sit around discussing Threshold pace, Lactic Acid, and Burn Out.

Ask Ryun or Pre or some 15 year old Kenyan that is whooping up on us Americans what they know about Lactic Acid, and how it works. Ask them what there threshold pace was, and if they were worried if they weren't in the range. Ask them what there VO2 max was at the time. Or how many miles they could run before they burned out.

Although they may have had an idea about these things, you're missing the point. They didn't/don't govern there running by these terms and numbers. They didn't spend there time researching how lactic acid is formed. They ran. So run.

What am I doing on this message board....I should be running!






i like it and it cuts alot of crap out of the way and gets straight to the point.

[bdaniels]

I do have a related question for BDaniels...since you are from Missouri you probably know more about this. Where is Adam Perkins going to school or is he? Someone told me he stopped running in HS and runs on his own or something like that. and what school did he run for...was he on the Liberty HS team?

Yeah, the irony of most of our discussion, jerrry, is that we were basically saying some of the same things in different words. The downside of talking on message boards is that you never know when someone is trying to argue with you until it's really "bad". So, I guess it's best to avoid all arguments, especially when in doubt.

Anyway, as may know by now Adam is at Arkansas. A while back, Missouri rules allowed exceptions to athletes to compete outside of the allowed 250 mile (or so) radius, but they would not allow an exception for Adam even with letters of recommendations from many supporters. Therefore, Adam decided to leave MSHSAA track and field and his teammates even supported his decision.

I wrote a big report on the whole fiasco for mohsrunning.com a while back with a bunch of documents and details of contradictory actions by MSHSAA officials. It was a very heated moment, and it was very stressful and frustrating for Adam (at times) and I remember not getting much sleep, myself, because of putting so much time into the report. I'll try to dig up the report on my computer, and re-post it on a thread on this forum.

We knew that it was going to be tough because Adam had to be the martyr, and rules have changed that allowed several athletes to compete at big meets outside of the radius (e.g., Meredith Snow at the Arcadia 3200M with a 10:31.10). So, it was basically set up so that Adam had to take the bullet for everyone else. He also took a lot of criticism for his choices, but he felt that it was more important to set the example for athletes who had high aspirations in Missouri and in other states where athletes were "held back", per say. He saw it as more of a "universal" problem rather than MSHSAA officials/rules getting in the way of his glory, so it was all for a higher good to him.

It started out a little bumpy for Adam at Arkansas, and he felt that he was struggling a little but now he seems to be getting back on track with running. We use to talk more back then than we do now, but I have friends that check on him quite a bit and they fill me in, so it looks like he seems to be enjoying things down at Arkansas.

He's a very fun and extremely humble guy to be around once you get to know him. Off of the track, you'd never know that guys like Tegenkamp and Perkins are really successful runners.

But, I'll start a thread about this if I can find the article I wrote.

B

[newtonxc]

Re-read it, I never said that they don't. In fact, I never even mentioned tempo runs, or intervals. I said they don't sit around discussing Threshold pace, Lactic Acid, and Burn Out.

Ask Ryun or Pre or some 15 year old Kenyan that is whooping up on us Americans what they know about Lactic Acid, and how it works. Ask them what there threshold pace was, and if they were worried if they weren't in the range. Ask them what there VO2 max was at the time. Or how many miles they could run before they burned out.

Although they may have had an idea about these things, you're missing the point. They didn't/don't govern there running by these terms and numbers. They didn't spend there time researching how lactic acid is formed. They ran. So run.

What am I doing on this message board....I should be running!

I agree with what you're saying, that everybody needs to just tough it out.

All I'm trying to say is that you can't go into running blindly. If you do, you could run 20 mpw, or 200 mpw, both of which probably aren't in your best interests. You should at least have a vague idea of good training

[jerrry]

Thanks bDaniels for that update - I have a great deal of respect for him now having heard that...is this (state of Missouri rules) also why Mo teams had to forfeit their NTN bids last fall?

I don't think the Kansas teams (although SMNW was the only one to go) realize how close we came to not being allowed to accept bids as well.

[bdaniels]

Thanks bDaniels for that update - I have a great deal of respect for him now having heard that...is this (state of Missouri rules) also why Mo teams had to forfeit their NTN bids last fall?

I don't think the Kansas teams (although SMNW was the only one to go) realize how close we came to not being allowed to accept bids as well.

Yes, that's exactly why those teams had to forfeit their bids last fall. And that clearly showed how much the state was behind the support of excellence in sports. One of reasons why the mileage rule was established in the first place was to keep athletes from missing too much school due to traveling long distances (which does make common sense), but Adam was the valedictorian of his class and maintained a 4.0 GPA and they still refused to grant him an exception to the rule. So, why even have "student-athletes" if they aren't allowed to compete as "athletes" at the highest levels in our own country?

Now, since things have changed here in Missouri we were able to have several athletes go to the Texas Relays this year to compete. And if it wasn't for Adam, they would've had to have gone through what he did or they may not have been able to run in the meet at all. So, if I was one of those athletes, I'd definitely be thanking him a ton.

B

[Follow Me]

The following post on Bekeles training may shed some light to my view...........


What I notice about that is that there is absolutely nothing new there. Long run, sprint work, race-pace intervals at various distances, none of it. For everyone looking for the newest, latest "scientific" training, there it is. And its nothing we haven't known for years, even decades.

For people that think plyos are "new", I can show you training books from the 1950's that have "gymnasium" workouts in them that are the same thing.

Weights have been around for decades.

Long runs have been around for decades.

Race pace intervals have been around for decades.

Hill repeats have been around for decades.

Notice what it DIDN'T say. No mention of heart monitors or blood lactate tests. No underwater treadmills. No accupuncture, no nothing.

It reminds me of something Frank Shorter said once when someone asked him if he ever thought he'd write a training book. He said no, because it would only be about page long. 120-140 miles a week, short intervals, long intervals and a long run, and that was pretty much all you needed to know.

Bekele's training above isn't much of a departure from Shorter's formula 30+ years ago. There simply are no secrets in this sport. None.



I agree with what you're saying, that everybody needs to just tough it out.

All I'm trying to say is that you can't go into running blindly. If you do, you could run 20 mpw, or 200 mpw, both of which probably aren't in your best interests. You should at least have a vague idea of good training

I never said they shouldn't have a vague idea. They should, and usually it is common sense to an extent. What I'm saying, is who cares about water and cereal, who cares how lactic acid works, etc., etc.. People put WAY to much weight into those things.

Read the above quote by Shorter. Hes exactly right. What makes you good at running is IMO about 95% running, 5% other factors. Non-running things seem to take way to big of a slice of the pie. Running should be the first priority, and if you have taken care of business there, then tickle your fancy with understanding the difference between aerobic/anaerobic training, Glycogen, etc.

Just be careful what you put your stock in.

BTW, NewtonXC=Eliterunner. Or is this common knowledge?

[Zat0pek]

Hey, if you're going to copy my post from the Bekele thread and agree with it, at least give me credit! :D

[Follow Me]

Hey, if you're going to copy my post from the Bekele thread and agree with it, at least give me credit! :D


LOL, sorry about that Zat. I was so excited that I found new material that I didn't even look to see who posted it! So good job, and well put. However, maybe you should have fed those lines into this thread and save me the trouble! :D

Cheers.

[eliterun]

BTW, NewtonXC=Eliterunner. Or is this common knowledge?

basically, but I like the sn eliterun because it's very vague, don't want to claim to be an elite runner, but maybe it's saying I had a good 'elite' run, or I want to.

hard work = greatness in running. the other stuff is just fun to know

[Follow Me]

basically, but I like the sn eliterun because it's very vague, don't want to claim to be an elite runner, but maybe it's saying I had a good 'elite' run, or I want to.

hard work = greatness in running. the other stuff is just fun to know

Sorry, I didn't mean to give you away...... :( :(

I was just confused.

[eliterun]

Sorry, I didn't mean to give you away...... :( :(

I was just confused.

You have nothing to apologize for, my friend. The spirit of debate gets riled in me from time to time, and I was debating a useless thing.

God Bless

[cory]

traphology? wow, that's pretty neat.

[cmgrunner]

holy geeze, where did this come from? this thread is almost 2 years old.

hahahahaha. "holy geeze" ahahahaha

[jtrain54]

It's spelled Trophology