The Unofficial Irv Black Thread

[RedOval]

This thread is for all the people who have been reprimanded, disciplined, degraded, or yelled at by the man, the legend, NB track coach Irv Black. Share a story to help us all better understand this complex individual.

I'll start after Amirault won the HPHS invite 2 mile in 9:01.64, Irv got in his face and started yelling at him and pointing his finger.

[CHOPATISTHEMAN]

ummmmm.... he really isn't a bad guy... i was at the finishline with him at ECCs and i discovered that he really isn't a bad guy

[polyxc]

Who is he?

[CHOPATISTHEMAN]

he is the guy from northeast timing that does all of the big meets in connecticut.. he does the state indoor meets, and a whole lot of outdoor meets

[300kicks]

2006 class of the National High School Hall of Fame:

Irving Black, who excelled in track and field as an athlete, coach, official and Masters athlete. Black will be honored for his 35-year tenure as track coach at New Britain (Connecticut) High School, where he won 656 meets and lost only 34 with 28 state championships.

Also is founder/operator NESportsTiming-OMEGA

[very fast person]

:eek: :eek:

My feeling is that Irv is hired to be a TIMER and not a disciplinary worker. He should NOT be allowed to make up rules and yell at kids, especially when they do not do anything wrong. All he does is get in the way!!!

:eek: :eek:

[very fast person]

On the other hand he is a world class timer and a great guy.:)

[danelons]

he is the track czar of new england. hands down.

[riggles]

he is the track czar of new england. hands down.

Undoubtedly. But when I was a little sophomore warming up for my race in the infield, a girl from my team was running and I cheered for her when she ran down the home stretch. He saw me cheering for her, called me over to his van, and started yelling at me, saying that he would DQ me and her. and then he asked what team I was from, and then he started yelling about if I thought my coach would appreciate it if he DQed my whole team. I know now that its a rule not to cheer from the infield, but I think this was slightly extreme and it scared the sh*t out of me.

[very fast person]

My point exactly, time the races and for people's sake let kids cheer no matter where they may be doing it from.

[BeamonStreet]

My point exactly, time the races and for people's sake let kids cheer no matter where they may be doing it from.

When is the last time you saw a high school football team inside the red-zone, while spectators were standing on the 50-yard line cheering? If you want your sport taken seriously, then you should treat it as if it is.

[The Dan]

When is the last time you saw a high school football team inside the red-zone, while spectators were standing on the 50-yard line cheering? If you want your sport taken seriously, then you should treat it as if it is.

I don't know about you, but I don't run on the infield during my race.

[very fast person]

When is the last time you saw a high school football team inside the red-zone, while spectators were standing on the 50-yard line cheering? If you want your sport taken seriously, then you should treat it as if it is.
No offense but the 50 yard line in a tad bit different then the infield where many teammates are either warming up or competing in field events. By the way what is not serious about a friendly cheer for a hardworking teammate!

[elcaballo]

When is the last time you saw a high school football team inside the red-zone, while spectators were standing on the 50-yard line cheering? If you want your sport taken seriously, then you should treat it as if it is.
If you believe this post, you're wrong.

[very fast person]

If you believe this post, you're wrong.



THANK YOU!!!!!

[Junker23]

When is the last time you saw a high school football team inside the red-zone, while spectators were standing on the 50-yard line cheering? If you want your sport taken seriously, then you should treat it as if it is.
Well, they do have groups of people called "cheerleaders" that often cheer on the football players. Usually they cheer from the track, which is basically the inverse of those who cheer for teammates on the infield at a track meet.

[CHOPATISTHEMAN]

i don't know why you would want to be on the infield but the reason is that if you are on the infield then you get in the way of events such as long jump, triple jump, javelin and that isn't fair to those athletes and also you run the risk of wondering into the area of the photo timer and if you set that thing off.. you will never ever live it down.

but seriously guys, do you really believe that it is right to have a thread to talk about a guy that you really don't know?

[BeamonStreet]

If you believe this post, you're wrong.

And this is why others do not take our sport seriously. So next time somebody refers to track and field as a "minor sport" or as "second rate", make sure you say "yes, I agree, it is". Don't say it doesn't happen; almost every track athlete/coach moans that "oh, football gets everything."
You will not find people warming up on the infield at the Penn Relays, or the NCAA's, or the Olympics. Athletes warm-up outside the stadium, report to clerking area's, and are then ushered into the arena before their event. And you'll find "major" HS sports imitating their elite levels. But not us .... parents on the track, coaches on the track, athletes cutting in front of HJ's, Jav guys .... we make ourselves our own joke. So yes, I believe my post, and I wish others would too.
Should some guy from the timing company scream at you b/c you are about to run through the finish area during a race? Maybe, maybe not ... but if you weren't there in the first place, like you probably shouldn't be, then it would be a moot point.

[Hammertime]

Irv is only trying to protect the integrity of the sport, and enforce the rules. It is a rule that you are not supposed to cheer or pace a runner from the infield, at it will result in disqualification. When was the last time you saw an athlete on the infield or around the finishline cheering at the Olympics, World Championships, U.S. Nationals, etc?

My point exactly.

[xcrunna]

And this is why others do not take our sport seriously. So next time somebody refers to track and field as a "minor sport" or as "second rate", make sure you say "yes, I agree, it is".

Track is a minor sport and second rate because it's not a crowd-pleasing spectator sport. Tennis has all its ridiculous etiquette and stuff(respected at HS level), but it's still a "minor" sport because a majority of people don't have an interest in watching it for an extended period of time. Cheering from the infield and nitpicky rules have nothing to do with that.

[brickrunnin06]

Irv is only trying to protect the integrity of the sport, and enforce the rules. It is a rule that you are not supposed to cheer or pace a runner from the infield, at it will result in disqualification. When was the last time you saw an athlete on the infield or around the finishline cheering at the Olympics, World Championships, U.S. Nationals, etc?

My point exactly.

to quote the director of the Brown Invitational in Indoor "the reason why i didn't expand the infield to viewing as well, is because i want the atheltes to be the center stage"

he's right, he left the infield for a holding pen only, no warming up. The only agrument i have is, why at a duel meet should i not be close to the track cheering on my teammates? At a championship meet i agree, no one on the infield, period.

[sisyphus]

Let me think about this:

Football: Fans in the stands; non participating athletes and coaches not relegated to the stands but allowed within inches of the playing field and oftentimes allowed on the field itself so long as they don't interfere with the action.

Basketball: Fans in the stands; non participating athletes and coaches allowed within inches of the court and oftentimes allowed on the court itself so long as they don't interfere with the action or draw too much attention from the refs.

Track: Fans in the stands. Coaches in the stands. Non participating athletes in the stands.

Beamon... What was your point again?


Now how about this for an analogy... While the refeees of a game do absolutely nothing, the scorer/timekeeper calls penalties and reprimands coaches and athletes during a game. You've got to be kidding me!

[very fast person]

Beamon, can you please explain to me what you mean when you say that we are not taking the sport seroiusly and making it second class. For now it is second class, mainly because how it is portrayed through the media, (not because kids cheer for teammates!) especially due to the steroid allegations. The fact is track is not the number one spectator sport in america. I believe that it should be much more popular, if anything the cheering will help its cause.

[BeamonStreet]

Let me think about this:

Football: Fans in the stands; non participating athletes and coaches not relegated to the stands but allowed within inches of the playing field and oftentimes allowed on the field itself so long as they don't interfere with the action.

Basketball: Fans in the stands; non participating athletes and coaches allowed within inches of the court and oftentimes allowed on the court itself so long as they don't interfere with the action or draw too much attention from the refs.

Track: Fans in the stands. Coaches in the stands. Non participating athletes in the stands.

Beamon... What was your point again?


Now how about this for an analogy... While the refeees of a game do absolutely nothing, the scorer/timekeeper calls penalties and reprimands coaches and athletes during a game. You've got to be kidding me!

Ok, let me see if I can make sense of this. Two teams, reserves watching one activity, is a very controlled environment. This compared to (let's use a CT Class meet) 25 teams, milling around an area where as many as half a dozen or even more separate competitions are going on. Sissy, your arguments are almost always spot on, but you're way off base this time. The chaos of track has to be controlled; at the least athletes are interfered with, at the worst, well, I've seen pictures of some pretty messed up javelin accidents.
In addition, there are rules stating NO COACHING, no aid from teammates; the intent of track and field is that the athlete achieves the performance that day on their own accord. Coaching should be left to practice; support from teammates/friends/family from designated areas outside the arena.
The comment about the timekeeper made me laugh though, that was funny. Reverend Black can be over the top, but I think he gets frustrated that the meet directors don't control the area better.

[BeamonStreet]

Beamon, can you please explain to me what you mean when you say that we are not taking the sport seroiusly and making it second class. For now it is second class, mainly because how it is portrayed through the media, (not because kids cheer for teammates!) especially due to the steroid allegations. The fact is track is not the number one spectator sport in america. I believe that it should be much more popular, if anything the cheering will help its cause.

Very Fast, what I'm trying to say is that those involved in track and field want it both ways. They want the sport to be respected and held in higher regard (believe me, there is nothing more I'd like to see), yet don't do the little things that would make the sport even better than it already is. It's the greatest sport in the world, but we often don't do our best to make it the best. I think CT has great coaches, and great kids .... but I think our meets are managed poorly. It's a consequence of not having an officials organization .... if we had that, then maybe things could be different.

[very fast person]

You are now my hero because i feel exactly the same way, many meets that should only take 2-3 hrs often take 6 or 7.

[sisyphus]

When is the last time you saw a high school football team inside the red-zone, while spectators were standing on the 50-yard line cheering? If you want your sport taken seriously, then you should treat it as if it is.

Ok, let me see if I can make sense of this. Two teams, reserves watching one activity, is a very controlled environment. This compared to (let's use a CT Class meet) 25 teams, milling around an area where as many as half a dozen or even more separate competitions are going on.

Beamon,

Sounds like you're saying that, in this respect, the sports cannot be compared. I agree. So why did you compare them again? Your second point, coaching is not to be done the day of a meet. Are you kidding me? With more statements like that, I'm going to call you out on your coaching credentials. Next time the indoor meet rolls around check out the beginning of the backstretch pushing into lanes five and sometimes four. During the distance races, at least, you will see the coach of just about every athlete in contention for the win. They are coaching their athletes during the race. Then go to the far end of the backstretch. You will see the top long and high jumpers receiving instruction either via hand signals or by coming across the track to meet with their coaches. The shot put is outside the oval so the shot putters get feedback directly from their coaches. There is no NO COACHING rule in track and field. It is a no coaching from the infield rule and is generally respected by the coaches. If they are going to let athletes warm up on the infield, they cannot stop them from encouraging their teammates; that's silly.

As to CT officials, and I think we agree on this. I had the singular pleasure of pointing out the rule that cleared a team I had DQ'd to Irv last winter. The meet referee was just staring blankly at us. At this point, I asked Irv why I was explaining this to the timer and told the referee if HE didn't know the rules , he couldn't DQ my team based on the timers interpretation. Where were all the experts at the open meet when Kerri Lyons was thrown out of the 800 because an illegal 3 count start was used. Our sport is not suffering due to the enthusiasm of athletes and coaches, it is suffering due to the apathy of the officials.

[BeamonStreet]

Beamon,
I'm going to call you out on your coaching credentials. Next time the indoor meet rolls around check out the beginning of the backstretch pushing into lanes five and sometimes four. During the distance races, at least, you will see the coach of just about every athlete in contention for the win. They are coaching their athletes during the race. Then go to the far end of the backstretch. You will see the top long and high jumpers receiving instruction either via hand signals or by coming across the track to meet with their coaches. The shot put is outside the oval so the shot putters get feedback directly from their coaches. There is no NO COACHING rule in track and field. It is a no coaching from the infield rule and is generally respected by the coaches. If they are going to let athletes warm up on the infield, they cannot stop them from encouraging their teammates; that's silly.

Our sport is not suffering due to the enthusiasm of athletes and coaches, it is suffering due to the apathy of the officials.

Actually, you are wrong in one regard here; a field event athlete is allowed to seek out their coach for feedback, so they can "come across the track" to speak with their coach, as long as their coach is in a designated area. You're right about the hand-signals; I think everyone in track works with the hearing impaired. And the backstretch of the Hillhouse track is exactly what I'm talking about; it's should be completely cleared of all people except for those directly competing. The meet director should clear the arena and throw everyone upstairs; let the seats on the floor be designated for coaches only. Let the athetes warm-up down that long corridor. And during outdoor meets in New Britian, have athletes warm-up underneath the stands. The meets would actually take on the appearance of a "real" track meet.
And I don't necessarily think that the officials are apathetic .... many are surely incompetent.

[CT_Runner]

A few points:

If you try to compare other sports to track you need to remember that in traditional sports (football, basketball, etc.) the coaches and non-participating athletes are right next to the competition area, but they do have a designated area that they must stay in. Those sports do have penalties for giong outside of them. We have designated areas for coaches, but where are the penalties?

A do agree that there are a lot of problems with officials in CT. Where does the blame lie? Incompetence? Apathy? Ignorance? A lack of knowledgeable volunteers? A lack of an officials organization? (Track & Field is the only CIAC sport without it's own officials asociation.) Is is that the officials are just trying to be nice?

I don't know if there is a single answer, but I would say a lot of it goes back to the coaches. The longer I coach the more I believe that a significant portion of CT track coaches do not educate their athletes in the way that any particular meet is going to be run. If those coaches actually did their job properly the officials would have much less to worry about.

That's my contention about track being a second class sport. Think about the football, basketball, and soccer coaches at your school. I'm sure they are very knowledgeable about their sport. How many of those same people are the track coaches? I feel that track is oneplace where we don't have enough coaches that are "track" people and too many who are filling a position/picking up a paycheck.

[sisyphus]

Beamon,

This is always so much fun. I loved what you said about Thetford in another thread BTW.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that athletes coming across the track was illegal, I was saying it was part of the sport. Athletes are coached during competition. That's a good thing. I love Hillhouse the way it is. Taking everyone and putting them in the peanut gallery is not going to make the sport more exciting... and excitement is what the sport needs... And timers that don't hate children.

[BeamonStreet]

Beamon,

This is always so much fun. I loved what you said about Thetford in another thread BTW.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that athletes coming across the track was illegal, I was saying it was part of the sport. Athletes are coached during competition. That's a good thing. I love Hillhouse the way it is. Taking everyone and putting them in the peanut gallery is not going to make the sport more exciting... and excitement is what the sport needs... And timers that don't hate children.

And so, once again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I always feel so poorly for the athlete who pulls lane 6 in the 300m. In the very least they will be distracted, if not interfered with. And athletes who are coached during competition takes away what I think our sport accomplishes best; making the performance yours and yours only, and learning how to be self-reliant. This is why track is superior to team sports; our athletes can take credit, not anyone else.
In terms of Reverend Black hating kids? If you say that, then you don't know him. It's impossible to have achieved the things he did as a coach while hating kids, or kids hating him. I think Ct_runner says it best; Black hates incompetent coaches who haven't taught their athletes how to conduct themselves at a meet, though it would be best he scream at the coaches rather than the athletes.

[sisyphus]

Beamon,

My mother went to New Britain high school while Black was there. The very first time I saw Black abuse a kid, I asked her about him. The following hour was quite educational. His demeanor is not limited to sports. It is quite easy to succeed in sports through malice and intimidation. I've seen it my whole life. My dad was a successful coach and growing up I listened to him bemoaning the fact that there was a place in coaching for a Woody Hayes or Bear Bryant simply because they could win. Success or no success, certain behavior is inexcusable.

BTW- Maybe the timer should learn how to conduct himself at a meet and set an example for the kids.

[BeamonStreet]

Beamon,

My mother went to New Britain high school while Black was there. The very first time I saw Black abuse a kid, I asked her about him. The following hour was quite educational. His demeanor is not limited to sports. It is quite easy to succeed in sports through malice and intimidation. I've seen it my whole life. My dad was a successful coach and growing up I listened to him bemoaning the fact that there was a place in coaching for a Woody Hayes or Bear Bryant simply because they could win. Success or no success, certain behavior is inexcusable.

BTW- Maybe the timer should learn how to conduct himself at a meet and set an example for the kids.

I'm hearing you, no denying you can win through intimidation. But ... I'm not so sure in our sport you can. Track is different than other sports in that most kids haven't been participating since a young age. A football kid is going to play football, regardless. Track kids get to ninth grade and figure, what the hell, I'll try track. If they showed up and hated what they were doing, I would think they would probably quit. When I see large teams, or successful teams, I have to assume that they are having fun. Which is usually an extension of the coaches. I have no idea what Black was like as a teacher; your mom would know much better. But you have to figure .... his track kids must have liked being there. You don't have to track, you choose to do it.