Any 1000 mile summers by Illinois runners this year?

[Leftfielder]

Coach Quick posted that Sagar Patel did 1100 over on the PalatineCC.Net site. Congratulations to him for his dedication. Any others?

The Palatine team now has Scott Bush on the staff to assist Quick and Miller. Barring key injuries I am thinking the Pirates might bring a trophy home to P-ville once again.

[XC_Runner]

What is the timeframe, number of weeks?

[Leftfielder]

What is the timeframe, number of weeks?

I think it means from the end of track to the beginning of fall practice. York and other suburban teams used to give out t-shirts to guys who got 1000 in. Guys like Spivey used the 1000 mile goal as a summer workout incentive.

[caveman017]

I'll be around 900ish

1000+ next year!

[OnePoint]

moi

[KCSPEED]

Coach Quick posted that Sagar Patel did 1100 over on the PalatineCC.Net site. Congratulations to him for his dedication. Any others?

The Palatine team now has Scott Bush on the staff to assist Quick and Miller. Barring key injuries I am thinking the Pirates might bring a trophy home to P-ville once again.


Do 1000 mile summers really = state trophy????

[OnePoint]

Do 1000 mile summers really = state trophy????

they dont necessarily hurt now do they (unless of course they hurt in the literal sense)

[sthrnboy11]

ill have over 700 but 1000 is really impressive that almost seems like to much though cuz i would like to enjoy my summer not run all the time.

[Leftfielder]

Do 1000 mile summers really = state trophy????

Nope. It was reading about the workouts that made me make those comments.

[BeastfromtheEast]

Sagar at the 8 mile point is asked if he wants to run more....

he replys "well we're already here, might as well keep going"

-----------------------------------------------

[Leftfielder]

This is the story of what the big summers did for one of Quick's runners:

http://www.palatinecc.net/values/values_work_ethic.htm

[ehof]

he replys "well we're already here, might as well keep going"
Forrest Gump: I figured since I come this far, I might as well keep on going.

[Wi>cc>k]

Lets say your summer starts June 1st to June 7th, and XC practice starts the 3rd week in Aug. That gives you 10-11 weeks to train. That means if you start at 50 mpw then 70 the second week, the rest of the summer you must avg. 110 mpw. That is horribly unproductive for 99.9% of HS runners. If you run 1000 miles in the summer you are only proving that you are stupid.

[daman]

Lets say your summer starts June 1st to June 7th, and XC practice starts the 3rd week in Aug. That gives you 10-11 weeks to train. That means if you start at 50 mpw then 70 the second week, the rest of the summer you must avg. 110 mpw. That is horribly unproductive for 99.9% of HS runners. If you run 1000 miles in the summer you are only proving that you are stupid.However, there are 76 days from June 1 to August 15. That's 11 weeks. If you run 90 miles a week that is 990 miles. So you don't have to put in any 110 mile weeks, thus proving you are smart.

[GT78]

If you plan on winning a state trophy 1,000 miles over the summer is a minimum for a high school runner. In fact if the whole team is serious about competeing for a state championship the top seven should all be putting in that mileage unless they are getting over an injury. The reason it is important is the milage actually helps prevent injuries and you get the most out of your in season workouts. Let's face it you can't go out and do a quality 20 quarter workout without the proper base.
I went from a 12:00 minute 2 mile freshman to a 16:00 minute 3 mile Sophmore cross country season. And that was having only better than average talent too bad I did'nt continue that the next two years. We may have had a chance with York that year so unless you were given an extra helping of talent 1,000 miles over the summer is a must for the serious competitor.:cool:

[daman]

I remember a thread about the old mileage debate and the guys from the 70's were saying that everyone was doing high mileage at that time and if you didn't you got buried during the season. If you look at the Illinois all-time lists a lot of the times from the 70's are still up near the top.

[spitfire@OPRF]

I ran over a thousand. I don't like listening to all of the "you'll get injured" trash that floats around 1000 mile summers. Not necessarily 1000miles, but high mileage is a must for anyone who wants a competitive season.

[Peter La Fleur]

However, there are 76 days from June 1 to August 15. That's 11 weeks. If you run 90 miles a week that is 990 miles. So you don't have to put in any 110 mile weeks, thus proving you are smart.

Some teams counts miles through the end of August to get their summer total

[daman]

So that means 92 days @ 11 miles per day or 77 miles a week.

[newestmember]

I ran exactly 1000 miles before my senior year. Too bad I had to run 105 the last week to get there. It took me two weeks before I felt normal again.

[Tall-n-Thin]

High mileage is a must for anyone who wants a competitive season.

Really? I wonder how many of last years All-Staters were in the 1000 range, because I would guess no more than 9 were up that high.

[KCSPEED]

If you plan on winning a state trophy 1,000 miles over the summer is a minimum for a high school runner. In fact if the whole team is serious about competeing for a state championship the top seven should all be putting in that mileage unless they are getting over an injury. The reason it is important is the milage actually helps prevent injuries and you get the most out of your in season workouts. Let's face it you can't go out and do a quality 20 quarter workout without the proper base.
I went from a 12:00 minute 2 mile freshman to a 16:00 minute 3 mile Sophmore cross country season. And that was having only better than average talent too bad I did'nt continue that the next two years. We may have had a chance with York that year so unless you were given an extra helping of talent 1,000 miles over the summer is a must for the serious competitor.:cool:

I would have to say the quality of the mileage is more important then the quantity.

[IRunSometimes.]

I heard that Jager is running 40 miles a week so i guess he isn't serious

[BeastfromtheEast]

I heard that Jager is running 40 miles a week so i guess he isn't serious

30 miles a week last year seemed to do him fine.

[Leftfielder]

The Tribune Article says he is up to 50 Miles a week. He does want to be national champion and Tebo is putting in big miles at altitude.

I only started the thread about 1000 mile summers because of Patel's achievement and the fact that it used to be quite a common thing back in the "glory days" of Illinois XC. I just wondered how common it was right now.

It isn't the right thing for everyone and kids who run 30 miles the last weekend of summer vacation to reach 1000 miles are probably hurting themselves for the sake of a t-shirt.

[sthrnboy11]

i talked to jager and he told he he is a low mileage guy he does about 50 a week last time we talked he had done 50 a week for 6 weeks but that was about the begining of aug so i dont know what he could be doing now.

[Fast4]

i talked to jager and he told he he is a low mileage guy he does about 50 a week last time we talked he had done 50 a week for 6 weeks but that was about the begining of aug so i dont know what he could be doing now.

I can't help but think that this 50mpw stuff will catch up with him sooner or later. He can handle in-state competition on 30-40. And he could probably be a top 3-4 finisher at FL on 50. But if Tebo is going 100mpw - we may see EJ get his feelings hurt at the end of a race, when he has gone through the 2mile at 9:10 and is just about out of gas in the third mile, while Tebo keeps pouring it on. In a 5000M I think Jager would probably hit 14:05-10ish on the track with that kind of mileage right now. And Tebo if his mileage and altitude training are accurate would be more in the 13:55-14:00 range.

[watchout]

I can't help but think that this 50mpw stuff will catch up with him sooner or later. He can handle in-state competition on 30-40. And he could probably be a top 3-4 finisher at FL on 50. But if Tebo is going 100mpw - we may see EJ get his feelings hurt at the end of a race, when he has gone through the 2mile at 9:10 and is just about out of gas in the third mile, while Tebo keeps pouring it on. In a 5000M I think Jager would probably hit 14:05-10ish on the track with that kind of mileage right now. And Tebo if his mileage and altitude training are accurate would be more in the 13:55-14:00 range.

maybe Jager excels more on lower milage than he does on higher milage, and visa versa for Tebo.

one is not necissarily better than the other... to each their own

[me]

maybe Jager excels more on lower milage than he does on higher milage, and visa versa for Tebo.

one is not necissarily better than the other... to each their own

qfe

[Fast4]

maybe Jager excels more on lower milage than he does on higher milage, and visa versa for Tebo.

one is not necissarily better than the other... to each their own

to each their own??? this isn't like asking someone what learning techniques they get more out of. this isnt trying to teach a kid history visually instead of orally. This is xc running. And to think that distance runner trying to go 5000M, will be able to maximize his endurance by running between 30-40mpw is hilarious. I'm not saying that the only way to be great is to hit 110mpw. But 30-40mpw??? that's an average of 4-5miles per day. And like I said, I'm not sure if it will catch up with him against IL competition. And for IL sake, maybe it won't catch up with him in HS even. But he won't ever make that big dramatic step towards greatness on 30-40mpw. Not even on 50mpw. He's going to hit that "talent" wall. The point where in order to make progress, the only thing left to do is to work really really hard.

[ehof]

I have heard that when Webb was in high school he was doing low mileage. Does anyone have information on whay kind of mileage he was doing around 2002-2004 or even now?

[goin4-1337]

to each their own??? this isn't like asking someone what learning techniques they get more out of. this isnt trying to teach a kid history visually instead of orally. This is xc running. And to think that distance runner trying to go 5000M, will be able to maximize his endurance by running between 30-40mpw is hilarious. I'm not saying that the only way to be great is to hit 110mpw. But 30-40mpw??? that's an average of 4-5miles per day. And like I said, I'm not sure if it will catch up with him against IL competition. And for IL sake, maybe it won't catch up with him in HS even. But he won't ever make that big dramatic step towards greatness on 30-40mpw. Not even on 50mpw. He's going to hit that "talent" wall. The point where in order to make progress, the only thing left to do is to work really really hard.

100% agree, no way to go around it but putting in the miles

[watchout]

to each their own??? this isn't like asking someone what learning techniques they get more out of. this isnt trying to teach a kid history visually instead of orally. This is xc running. And to think that distance runner trying to go 5000M, will be able to maximize his endurance by running between 30-40mpw is hilarious. I'm not saying that the only way to be great is to hit 110mpw. But 30-40mpw??? that's an average of 4-5miles per day. And like I said, I'm not sure if it will catch up with him against IL competition. And for IL sake, maybe it won't catch up with him in HS even. But he won't ever make that big dramatic step towards greatness on 30-40mpw. Not even on 50mpw. He's going to hit that "talent" wall. The point where in order to make progress, the only thing left to do is to work really really hard.

I never said 30-40 mpw would be his optimal level, just saying that 100+ mpw isn't going to be the best recipe for everyone.

Some people can't handle that because of injury problems, or because they simply do better with less/faster milage.

A person could do just fine running 60ish mpw (which is what I'd call moderate milage) as long as they do it right. That's an average of: 6 mile tempo + 3-4 mile shakeout 4 times a week, and 2 runs of 10ish miles - or an easy 8 and a 12 for a longer run, leaving a 7th day to cross train/rest or a light run.

Is that any worse training than 100 miles at a comparably slow pace? Maybe not for some people, but for some others it wouldn't quite do as much.

Everybody needs something different than everyone else, 100 mpw isn't going to always bring out the best.

[watchout]

I have heard that when Webb was in high school he was doing low mileage. Does anyone have information on whay kind of mileage he was doing around 2002-2004 or even now?

I've always heard 60-80 mpw before this year, maybe 90-100 mpw this year... but I cannot claim to know for sure, that's just hearsay

[spitfire@OPRF]

to each their own??? this isn't like asking someone what learning techniques they get more out of. this isnt trying to teach a kid history visually instead of orally. This is xc running. And to think that distance runner trying to go 5000M, will be able to maximize his endurance by running between 30-40mpw is hilarious. I'm not saying that the only way to be great is to hit 110mpw. But 30-40mpw??? that's an average of 4-5miles per day. And like I said, I'm not sure if it will catch up with him against IL competition. And for IL sake, maybe it won't catch up with him in HS even. But he won't ever make that big dramatic step towards greatness on 30-40mpw. Not even on 50mpw. He's going to hit that "talent" wall. The point where in order to make progress, the only thing left to do is to work really really hard.

Coe was the same way, never more then 50 miles, usually around 30 or 40. The differnece in success between short and fast, and long and slow is all about prefrence. I'm sure Jager and his coach have thought about 100 miles every week, but the possibility of injury, overtraining and the like were out weighed by "if its not broken, don't fix it" idea. Training is a very individual thing.

Tall-n-thin, lets say only 9 runners did do 1000 miles, but how many runners do you think did 1000 that weren't all-state?

[Fast4]

Coe was the same way, never more then 50 miles, usually around 30 or 40. The differnece in success between short and fast, and long and slow is all about prefrence. I'm sure Jager and his coach have thought about 100 miles every week, but the possibility of injury, overtraining and the like were out weighed by "if its not broken, don't fix it" idea. Training is a very individual thing.

Tall-n-thin, lets say only 9 runners did do 1000 miles, but how many runners do you think did 1000 that weren't all-state?

Coe was also an a miler who more than anything, was closer to an 800M runner than anything else. Coe's bread and butter were middle distances. 800-mile. The guy ran 1:42.33 and I don't doubt that he could have split low 46's and possibly into the 45's. But we are talking about XC right now and Seb Coe did not make a name for himself and change the world because he was a great 5000M runner. With the speed he has now, Jager would be best served by his speed at longer distances which he would be trained for. If he brought his 1:50pt speed to a 5000M, and was trained to run a full 5000M then he'd be deadly. I'm doubting that 50mpw would be enough to do this for him.....

[merun4fun]

Coe was also an a miler who more than anything, was closer to an 800M runner than anything else. Coe's bread and butter were middle distances. 800-mile. The guy ran 1:42.33 and I don't doubt that he could have split low 46's and possibly into the 45's. But we are talking about XC right now and Seb Coe did not make a name for himself and change the world because he was a great 5000M runner. With the speed he has now, Jager would be best served by his speed at longer distances which he would be trained for. If he brought his 1:50pt speed to a 5000M, and was trained to run a full 5000M then he'd be deadly. I'm doubting that 50mpw would be enough to do this for him.....

1:41.73

[me]

Coe did do 5k pacework for the 800 as endurance work and his workouts were those of a 5000m who could run in the low 13's I think.

[watchout]

just because you run x miles doesn't mean you are that much more prepared to run a 5k than someone who ran y less miles.

How long has Jager been running? how much is the most he has run? do you really think jumping from 40ish mpw to 100 mpw in one summer is going to be a good idea?

he has had success with 40ish mpw. why should he jump on the bandwagon of running the same milage of the people he is beating? and in doing so, exponentially increasing his risk of injury?

Jager shouldn't dare go over 70 mpw until he gets to college. 50-60 mpw is big enough of a jump. Individualization > blind coaching.

[KCSPEED]

I think some of you are missing a major part to distance training. It is not just about mileage. The pace you are doing the mileage is an important factor. Back in the 70's when they were talking about long slow distance (LSD) it was at about 6 minute pace. How fast are you running 100 mpw? How fast are you running 60 mpw? It would be better to train 60 mpw at 6 minute pace then 100 mpw at 8 - 9 minute pace.

[caveman017]

I think some of you are missing a major part to distance training. It is not just about mileage. The pace you are doing the mileage is an important factor. Back in the 70's when they were talking about long slow distance (LSD) it was at about 6 minute pace. How fast are you running 100 mpw? How fast are you running 60 mpw? It would be better to train 60 mpw at 6 minute pace then 100 mpw at 8 - 9 minute pace.
but running 6 min miles every day could get you injured - very fast if you arent extremely careful. I'm forgetting who currently, but there was an article a month back posted on the forums about a college athlete who used to run his training runs all under 6:30 and didnt improve much, but when he slowed them down he started improving.


If you keep going fast all the time you could - A. get mentally burnt out, B. Injured, or C. turn into AJ. :p

I can tell you beginning of August when I was hitting 80-85mpw, most of my runs were around 7 flat, along with a tempo/hills day on tuesday and another tempo run on thursday.

[GT78]

The key here is to not only run 1,000 miles over the summer but also call up your team mates and get them out running. This is how winning becomes contagious among the team and at the same time develop strong friendships. In the late seventies we did not have video games, internet, dvd's or cable TV so we had to occupy our time outside and running was an activity to get out all that energy. If you consistently ran faster that was fine but do not knock the benefit of the LSD approach even at 8-9 minute pace. We had a guy on our team who ran only one cross country season put in a 1,000 miles over the summer and finished in 34th place at the state meet. Tom Graves ran high mileage in high school and also swam to develop the cardio vascular system and he dominated the state meet for several years. Of all the guys who were part of the 1,000 mile club not one ever had a stress fracture or other major injury due to running.

[Derrick08]

I'm forgetting who currently, but there was an article a month back posted on the forums about a college athlete who used to run his training runs all under 6:30 and didnt improve much, but when he slowed them down he started improving.
here is the link to the Letsrun thread you are referring to http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=152890&thread=152890

[caveman017]

Summer miles are over - total 904.08 (GPSd most of it)

[illinirun]

If you plan on winning a state trophy 1,000 miles over the summer is a minimum for a high school runner. In fact if the whole team is serious about competeing for a state championship the top seven should all be putting in that mileage unless they are getting over an injury. The reason it is important is the milage actually helps prevent injuries and you get the most out of your in season workouts. Let's face it you can't go out and do a quality 20 quarter workout without the proper base.
I went from a 12:00 minute 2 mile freshman to a 16:00 minute 3 mile Sophmore cross country season. And that was having only better than average talent too bad I did'nt continue that the next two years. We may have had a chance with York that year so unless you were given an extra helping of talent 1,000 miles over the summer is a must for the serious competitor.:cool:


1000 miles summers are not a must for serious competitors, do you see jager posting 1000 mile summers? i dont know if finley did 1000 last year or not, but probably

[KCSPEED]

but running 6 min miles every day could get you injured - very fast if you arent extremely careful. I'm forgetting who currently, but there was an article a month back posted on the forums about a college athlete who used to run his training runs all under 6:30 and didnt improve much, but when he slowed them down he started improving.


If you keep going fast all the time you could - A. get mentally burnt out, B. Injured, or C. turn into AJ. :p

I can tell you beginning of August when I was hitting 80-85mpw, most of my runs were around 7 flat, along with a tempo/hills day on tuesday and another tempo run on thursday.


If 6 minute pace is fast then you do need to run at a comfortable pace. But I think most guys who can break 15 minutes for 3 mile can run 6 minute pace with no problem.

[BeastfromtheEast]

1000 miles summers are not a must for serious competitors, do you see jager posting 1000 mile summers? i dont know if finley did 1000 last year or not, but probably

450 maybe, Quick adjusted the whole program to suite my mileage needs thats why palatines jumped this year.

[maddash1]

I would have to say the quality of the mileage is more important then the quantity.
QFE
Pushing the miles when your body is fatigued is bad, but so is holding back when you could go farther. Thats why I'm a fan of timed runs (ie; a 60 min distance run) vs. milage runs, because how you feel that day will dictate if you end up running more or less miles that day. Also (more inseason stuff but still kinda applies to summer), IMO making sure you get quality workouts in should trump meeting such and such a milage. The work out will train you body to run fast, and not fatigue, what you need in a race. I have a feeling this could be the core idea of EJ's training, focus on quality workouts.

[State]

No, this isn't history class, it's cross country. As has been pointed out in latter threads, successful runners do not all do high mileage. To me, 1000 miles is entirely too much for almost any highschooler. They might be able to stay healthy in highschool, but all of it will eventually catch up with them. The "To each his own." idea is obviously a factor, otherwise there wouldn't be literally hundreds of books on coaching cross country. The Lydiard system works well for some, while others thrive on Daniel's. If I wanted to emulate the best, I should technically move to York and just run my legs off. However, I would never survive this kind of mileage at this point, much like many of Newton's runners. Most of his runners really don't fare well in college because they have peaked at the age of 18. Yes, Sage ran well in college, but his pro career doesn't include any World Championship or Olympic medals. Individuality is the key, do what works best for you.

[daman]

Yes, Sage ran well in college, but his pro career doesn't include any World Championship or Olympic medals. Individuality is the key, do what works best for you. He never ran pro. You don't even know what your talking about.

How many championships does your career include?

He did win an NCAA title and made the World Cross Country team.

[daman]

Most of his runners really don't fare well in college because they have peaked at the age of 18. This was taken from another thread. It shows what York runners have done in college the last 5 or so years:

Marius Bakken - Indiana, 28th at NCAA cross as a frosh, then went back to Norway and international success

Don Sage - Stanford, 11-time All-American, 2-time NCAA champ, World Cross qualifier

Tim Hobbs - Illinois, multiple Big Ten All-conference, 1:49 and 4:05y indoors

Pete Cioni - Princeton, 3:50 for 1500, 2 time IC4A finalist

Adam Roche - Iowa, 95th and 100th at NCAA XC Nats, 2 time Midwest all-region, 30:56 for 10000

Jim Akita - Elmhurst College, 30:17/14:25, now runs for Universal Sole

Mark Fruin - Indiana, 14:30 5000/ 30:41 10000 as a frosh.

Mike Luchessi - Illinois, Midwest xc All-region, 30:55 for 10000

Pete Stasiulis - Illinois, 4:10y

Todd Jones - Tennesse, 1:53

[daman]

Also, Macnamara just ran his first college race and is Michigan's #2 runner.

[State]

Sage didn't have a pro career, exactly. I have no titles, and if we are going to play the stats game; how many do you have? York has basically an unlimited talent pool to choose from, I'm not debating the fact that they haven't had very good runners. I simply feel that there could have been more, but they couldn't survive the mileage and got injured. High mileage can be succesful for many, Frank Shorter ran averaged 120 miles per week for 10 years. It just isn't for everyone, especially non-professional high school athletes. Bottom line: listen to your own body, establish a plan, and do what works best for you.

[daman]

Sage didn't have a pro career, exactly. I have no titles, and if we are going to play the stats game; how many do you have?

I'm not the one criticizing one of the premier programs in the country. I wish my old high school coach pushed me like Newton does.

York has basically an unlimited talent pool to choose from, I'm not debating the fact that they haven't had very good runners. I simply feel that there could have been more, but they couldn't survive the mileage and got injured. Where are your examples of guys who got hurt and didn't amount to anything? Wrong in every way. There are quite a few programs in the state who get a lot of kids out and still don't have the success of York and don't produce World and Olympic champions either. Name one high school in Illinois who has that many guys running in college. Even your low-mileage programs have guys getting hurt and burned out because they get their unprepared asses handed to them

High mileage can be succesful for many, Frank Shorter ran averaged 120 miles per week for 10 years. It just isn't for everyone, especially non-professional high school athletes. Bottom line: listen to your own body, establish a plan, and do what works best for you.You just contradicted yourself.....you say it can work for many yet you blast the one school who puts the most guys into college programs successfully. You have to be able to compete at the college level before you start thinking about being a pro.