Week 4 Rankings

[311runXC]

http://www.dyestat.com/3us/6xc/ntn/4mw/rank-week4.html?PHPSESSID=178893a849f530e71b1c9723aed7b 780


1 Elmhurst XC Club (York) IL
2 Dexter XC Club (Dexter) MI
3 Woodridge XC Club (Woodridge) OH
4 LaSalle XC Club (LaSalle) OH
5 Pinckney XC Club (Pinckney) MI
6 Carmel XC Club (Carmel) IN
7 St. John's Jesuit XC Club (St. John's Jesuit) OH
8 Palatine XC Club (Palatine) IL
9 Sandburg XC Club (Sandburg) IL
10 North XC Club (Bloomington North) IN

[jagerbomb]

3 IL teams ahead of IN #2, 3 IL teams vs. 2 for IN, i refuse to believe that these are the real rankings :D :eek: :rolleyes: .

[daman]

And this does not yet reflect the recent Carmel debacle....so I suspect Palatine and Sandburg are really at least #7 and #8.

It shouldn't be surprising, the Indiana teams have self destructed at times with poor races within their state, and the rankings should rightfully show that.

[emdeb]

And this does not yet reflect the recent Carmel debacle....so I suspect Palatine and Sandburg are really at least #7 and #8.

It shouldn't be surprising, the Indiana teams have self destructed at times with poor races within their state, and the rankings should rightfully show that.

What happened to Carmel?

[watchout]

What happened to Carmel?

this:

Warren Central IN#3 and Center Grove IN#13 both defeat IN#1 Carmel in a meet today. Warren Central is starting to get back to the point where they were at the end of last season and Carmel ran a poor race with their number 3 guy Rosenburg running 6th for them.
Tomorow night IN#2 Bloomington North runs against IN#4 Franklin Central and Indiana powerhouse IN#8 Columbus North.
Warren Central defeating Carmel puts a huge shakeup in the polls and hopefully keeps at least one indiana team in the running for an NTN bid but I'm starting to get scared. I know that there are deserving teams here but the mix ups between them every week in not playing out well for our state. Could Bloomington North after tomorow be the new IN#1 and hopefully/rightfully break into the MW top 10. BN's only defeat this season is to a carmel team running at there best when they ran a poor race at culver

[daman]

They were beaten by 2 unranked MW teams, one of them the IN#13 team:

Team Results:
1. #3 Warren Central - 42
2. #13 Center Grove - 61
3. #1 Carmel - 68
4. #22 Ben Davis - 103
5. #24 North Central (Indianapolis) - 140
6. Terre Haute North - 150
7. Lawrence North - 155
8. Terre Haute South - 187

http://www.hoosierauthority.com/Boys_Cross_Country/articles.php?spid=19&spmid=21&id=2036

[DetroiterInIL]

I have a feeling we could see a similar pileup in Ohio. I'm not all that convinced that the top 4 teams are even that far apart from each other. I'm starting to think that between now and the end of the season any one of about 4 teams in IN could end up as #1 in that state, any one of about 4 teams in OH could end up as #1 in that state (with an edge to Woodridge right now), and any one of about 6 teams in IL could end up as #2 in that state.

Watchout goaded me into looking into the other midwest results and doing my own rankings. Not sure if I've mentioned it before, but I'm a professional statistician, so I look at variability for a living.

With a statistician's hat on, allowing for either an off day by a key runner or a phenomenal day by a key runner... From what I've seen, an off day by a Woodridge runner could be enough to send LaSalle, Chardon, or St. John's Jesuit past them. We've already seen what an off day for one runner or a really good day for one can do in Indiana. In Illinois, Watchout's mentioned the closeness of all the elite teams not named York... I haven't really looked at MI in much detail other than Dexter and Pinckney. Dexter looks more like a slightly weaker version of York. Pinckney looks a lot like Sandburg to me.

I think the only thing clear cut is that York is #1 out of teams who could go to NTN. Could Woodridge give 'em a run for it? Not based on their 9/9 results; but I haven't seen substantive ones since.

[watchout]

I have a feeling we could see a similar pileup in Ohio. I'm not all that convinced that the top 4 teams are even that far apart from each other. I'm starting to think that between now and the end of the season any one of about 4 teams in IN could end up as #1 in that state, any one of about 4 teams in OH could end up as #1 in that state (with an edge to Woodridge right now), and any one of about 6 teams in IL could end up as #2 in that state.

Watchout goaded me into looking into the other midwest results and doing my own rankings. Not sure if I've mentioned it before, but I'm a professional statistician, so I look at variability for a living.

With a statistician's hat on, allowing for either an off day by a key runner or a phenomenal day by a key runner... From what I've seen, an off day by a Woodridge runner could be enough to send LaSalle, Chardon, or St. John's Jesuit past them. We've already seen what an off day for one runner or a really good day for one can do in Indiana. In Illinois, Watchout's mentioned the closeness of all the elite teams not named York... I haven't really looked at MI in much detail other than Dexter and Pinckney. Dexter looks more like a slightly weaker version of York. Pinckney looks a lot like Sandburg to me.

I think the only thing clear cut is that York is #1 out of teams who could go to NTN. Could Woodridge give 'em a run for it? Not based on their 9/9 results; but I haven't seen substantive ones since.

Exactly. :D

I just wanted you to see the light, step inside the ring for a minute and see what was really going on, with your own analysis... so you can agree with what I'm arguing ;)

IL = IN = OH ... 14 teams right there (not counting York, who is #1 like you said) that could be interchangable on any given week.

Throw in 2 Michigan teams, and that's 17 teams in the MW, only 1 spot solidified for sure. Probably either another Michigan team or two, and maybe a Wisconsin team or two, could also be in the hunt... leaving as many as 18 teams fighting for the #2/3 spot.

No matter how much daman, greenman or anyone else tries to claim I'm slighting Illinois, it's really a pileup throughout the whole region. At this point, if I had to give ANYONE the edge, I'd say Ohio's quartet is probably the strongest. But that's far from solidified, and it's not an anti-Illinois bias.

[luv2run]

Funny that there's a big gap between La Salle and St. John's considering they tied when they raced 2 weeks ago....

[DetroiterInIL]

Funny that there's a big gap between La Salle and St. John's considering they tied when they raced 2 weeks ago....

I wouldn't say a gap between #4 and #7 is "big". As Watchout and I indicated, there hardly a distinguishable difference between most of these teams.

[DetroiterInIL]

Exactly. :D

I just wanted you to see the light, step inside the ring for a minute and see what was really going on, with your own analysis... so you can agree with what I'm arguing ;)

IL = IN = OH ... 14 teams right there (not counting York, who is #1 like you said) that could be interchangable on any given week.

Throw in 2 Michigan teams, and that's 17 teams in the MW, only 1 spot solidified for sure. Probably either another Michigan team or two, and maybe a Wisconsin team or two, could also be in the hunt... leaving as many as 18 teams fighting for the #2/3 spot.

No matter how much daman, greenman or anyone else tries to claim I'm slighting Illinois, it's really a pileup throughout the whole region. At this point, if I had to give ANYONE the edge, I'd say Ohio's quartet is probably the strongest. But that's far from solidified, and it's not an anti-Illinois bias.

I posted a VERY long post on this on the Franklin Central thread (since I saw it first there), but a quick thought.

1.) Read my monologue
2.) I do understand where you're coming from; but I'm a big believer in strength of schedule. Palatine may not have beaten other ranked teams by much, but I'd argue they've had a tougher schedule than anyone except LaSalle (because of Stanford) and beaten all but York. In college basketball and football, the team that wins that has the best strength of schedule gets the nod in close calls.
3.) So... I'd rank in this order: York, Dexter, Woodridge, Palatine, LaSalle, ugh... really tough call between Pinckney/Sandburg/St. Johns, Schaumburg, maybe Chardon or someone in Indiana...
4.) It shouldn't matter that much at this point in the season. As far as I'm concerned, the rankings can start in the state tournament; but teams aren't looking at it that way because NTN doesn't look at it that way.

[watchout]

I posted a VERY long post on this on the Franklin Central thread (since I saw it first there), but a quick thought.

1.) Read my monologue
2.) I do understand where you're coming from; but I'm a big believer in strength of schedule. Palatine may not have beaten other ranked teams by much, but I'd argue they've had a tougher schedule than anyone except LaSalle (because of Stanford) and beaten all but York. In college basketball and football, the team that wins that has the best strength of schedule gets the nod in close calls.
3.) So... I'd rank in this order: York, Dexter, Woodridge, Palatine, LaSalle, ugh... really tough call between Pinckney/Sandburg/St. Johns, Schaumburg, maybe Chardon or someone in Indiana...
4.) It shouldn't matter that much at this point in the season. As far as I'm concerned, the rankings can start in the state tournament; but teams aren't looking at it that way because NTN doesn't look at it that way.


True, I probably should pay some attention to SOS ... but all my rankings try to sort out was who has the best potential, not who has the best arguement for each ranking. That's what NTN is for ;)

[DetroiterInIL]

True, I probably should pay some attention to SOS ... but all my rankings try to sort out was who has the best potential, not who has the best arguement for each ranking. That's what NTN is for ;)

Oh,man...did you read the long spot on the Franklin Central board?

To be honest, I don't believe you CAN sort out who has the best potential. Last year, you admitted you ranked Palatine #2 MW in a very close call over WC after all the pre-NTN races were done. But... I looked at your posts prior to that, and you didn't believe Palatine had the potential to be that good. So, you changed your mind after the results. So... I don't believe you can gauge potential all that accurately, nor can I. Who knows what kind of improvement can be made in the next month.

You can look at people's best times and determine they have more in them than they've shown (Jager, Cybulski), but there are others who will make big improvements over both track and the early season XC.

IL is deeper than the neighboring states, so its tougher for a team to stand out. I don't say this because of a bias;heck I grew up in MI. I lived in OH. Its just the way it is. The top runners in each state? Makes no difference. Heineking? Turner? Jackson? Great runners - no doubt. But, IL has the depth. So... back to SOS... its harder for Palatine (or anyone in IL) to dominate - not only because of York - but because there are more teams in that tier in IL than in OH, IN, etc....

We need a regional.....

[watchout]

Oh,man...did you read the long spot on the Franklin Central board?

To be honest, I don't believe you CAN sort out who has the best potential. Last year, you admitted you ranked Palatine #2 MW in a very close call over WC after all the pre-NTN races were done. But... I looked at your posts prior to that, and you didn't believe Palatine had the potential to be that good. So, you changed your mind after the results. So... I don't believe you can gauge potential all that accurately, nor can I. Who knows what kind of improvement can be made in the next month.

You can look at people's best times and determine they have more in them than they've shown (Jager, Cybulski), but there are others who will make big improvements over both track and the early season XC.

IL is deeper than the neighboring states, so its tougher for a team to stand out. I don't say this because of a bias;heck I grew up in MI. I lived in OH. Its just the way it is. The top runners in each state? Makes no difference. Heineking? Turner? Jackson? Great runners - no doubt. But, IL has the depth. So... back to SOS... its harder for Palatine (or anyone in IL) to dominate - not only because of York - but because there are more teams in that tier in IL than in OH, IN, etc....

We need a regional.....

Yeah, I read the posts from the other thread.

For Palatine: losing in the mid-season, and barely escaping or losing in the qualifying series definately made me lose confidence in them. I was among the group thinking that either SCN, Mt. Prospect, or more likely GBS, were going to take 2nd and 3rd and probably 4th at IL State. Palatine had a huge run at state, obviously peaked very well for it, but it simply didn't show in the qualifying rounds. It was due to their state run, and only their state run, that they were ranked MW#2 (and US#7).

Here is the rankings based solely on each teams' state performances (http://www.geocities.com/utopianyatzi/xc05/nationwide_state_compilation.txt).

Just judging on that one race, Palatine was clearly the team deserving of the auto bid. Interestingly, St. Charles North was MW#3 and Warren Central was only MW#4 - and Rock Springs right with St. Charles North.

Because of Palatine's losses and close calls, I ranked Warren Central and Rock Springs above Palatine... they were more consistant.

Based on potential shown strictly in the last meet, Palatine was the best of the three. But that was the only point that they showed that the whole season.

This year, so far at least, I'm doing the opposite of that... ignoring when teams barely win, or lose, and just looking at the individual runners instead of team results.

Interesting how this year Illinois and Indiana have seemingly switched roles in that. Last year, it was Warren Central, not Palatine, who won throughout the season and was perhaps less potential in the end. So far this season, it's been the exact opposite.

The MW is definately a region that would be dramatically helped by a regional. Plus there is slight hope that that would allow Michigan and Wisconsin teams to compete? adding even more of a buildup, and an exciting regional race...

[jenuine13]

Interesting how this year Illinois and Indiana have seemingly switched roles in that. Last year, it was Warren Central, not Palatine, who won throughout the season and was perhaps less potential in the end. So far this season, it's been the exact opposite.

Very interesting point. Both the Indiana and Illinois state meets will be something to look forward to.

[jagerbomb]

quick 1st impressions here. Dexter is clearly the #2 in the MW now IMO. They beat pinckney by 38 at portage today. York beat Palatine by 55 at Palatine a few weeks ago. Since palatine seems to be about = to portage as far as meet quality and competition, how close is dexter to york? I would say that palatine based on those results is slightly ahead of pinckney, but not by very much at all.

[daman]

quick 1st impressions here. Dexter is clearly the #2 in the MW now IMO. They beat pinckney by 38 at portage today. York beat Palatine by 55 at Palatine a few weeks ago. Since palatine seems to be about = to portage as far as meet quality and competition, how close is dexter to york? I would say that palatine based on those results is slightly ahead of pinckney, but not by very much at all.York puts 3 guys between Dexter's 1 and 2, then 3 more between their 3 and 4.

Dexter
York
York
York
Dexter
Dexter
York
York
York
Dexter
Dexter

[watchout]

Updated with Portage, readjusted some meet equivalents (basically tacking on an extra 5 seconds to most all Ohio/Indiana results, adding an extra 10 onto Marion County) and added in York's Peoria times

Still missing SJJ OH, and Bloomington North is still only using their Culver race.


Teams

Dexter 1 11 13 22 30 57 64 77
York 5 6 12 28 34 48 54 85
Pinckney 7 24 25 33 39 51 82 128
Woodridge 4 19 31 41 69 101 103 164
LaSalle 21 23 29 49 84 85 94 206
Palatine 14 17 52 63 72 88 104 218
Sandburg 35 36 37 47 66 73 80 221
Chardon 2 10 43 61 105 106 107 221
Neuqua Valley 9 15 58 65 75 76 102 222
Schaumburg 8 18 50 59 89 91 92 224
St. Charles North 27 32 42 60 74 81 93 235
Carmel 16 40 56 68 78 96 109 258
Warren Central 3 38 67 77 86 95 100 271
Franklin Central 20 44 45 71 97 108 110 277
Naperville North 46 53 55 62 79 87 99 295
Bloomington North 26 70 83 90 98 111 367





Individuals:

Dexter Aprill 901
Chardon Heineking 906
Warren Central Turner 910
Woodridge Hilditch 921
York Fry 921
York Achtien 923
Pinckney Emery 928
Schaumburg Spain 929
Neuqua Valley Derrick 930
Chardon Grau 933
Dexter Jackson 933
York Kuczwara 936
Dexter Bishop 938
Palatine Patel 938
Neuqua Valley Riddle 939
Carmel Rich 940
Palatine Smoody 940
Schaumburg Roberts 940
Woodridge Petrak 942
Franklin Central Green 943
LaSalle Lang 944
Dexter Steavenson 945
LaSalle Spriggs 945
Pinckney Hankins 945
Pinckney Marcum 945



EDIT: Actually, just now noticed that I've been missing Bloomington North's #2 all along... also added in Columbus North and Conference Indiana results - will update in about an hour

[jagerbomb]

if those are the york results from peoria, how did kuczwara end up 13 seconds behind achtien. For that matter how did achtien end up behind fry, achtien was 1441 and fry was 1449.

[watchout]

if those are the york results from peoria, how did kuczwara end up 13 seconds behind achtien. For that matter how did achtien end up behind fry, achtien was 1441 and fry was 1449.

not just Peoria, Palatine too.

Fry and Achtein ran better at Palatine (only slightly better for Achtein)


Runner: Peoria Palatine
Fry: 934 921
Achtein: 926 923
Kuczwara: 936 945
M. Sulkin: 951 959
Spicer: 959 972
D'Ambrosio: 971 DNR
S. Sulkin: 987 977 (expected to be the #5)

[watchout]

Ok, I think I have everything included now...


Teams:

Dexter 1 11 15 25 34 63 70 86
York 5 6 13 32 38 53 60 94
Pinckney 7 27 28 37 44 56 90 143
Woodridge 4 21 35 46 75 111 113 181
LaSalle 24 26 33 54 88 91 97 225
Palatine 16 19 57 69 78 94 116 239
Neuqua Valley 9 17 64 71 82 83 112 243
Chardon 2 10 48 67 119 120 121 246
Schaumburg 8 20 55 65 98 100 101 246
Sandburg 40 41 42 52 72 79 87 247
St. Johns Jesuit 12 14 23 104 105 117 125 258
St. Charles North 30 36 47 66 81 89 102 260
Carmel 18 45 62 74 85 106 123 284
Warren Central 3 43 73 84 92 103 110 295
Franklin Central 22 49 50 77 107 122 124 305
Bloomington North 29 39 76 80 96 108 126 320
Naperville North 51 59 61 68 86 93 109 325
Columbus North 31 58 95 99 114 115 118 397



Individuals:

Dexter Aprill 901
Chardon Heineking 906
Warren Central Turner 910
Woodridge Hilditch 921
York Fry 921
York Achtien 923
Pinckney Emery 928
Schaumburg Spain 929
Neuqua Valley Derrick 930
Chardon Grau 933
Dexter Jackson 933
St. John Jesuit M.Lemon 933
York Kuczwara 936
St. John Jesuit Miller 937
Dexter Bishop 938
Palatine Patel 938
Neuqua Valley Riddle 939
Carmel Rich 940
Palatine Smoody 940
Schaumburg Roberts 940
Woodridge Petrak 942
Franklin Central Green 943
St. John Jesuit C.Lemon 943
LaSalle Lang 944
Dexter Steavenson 945
LaSalle Spriggs 945
Pinckney Hankins 945
Pinckney Marcum 945
Bloomington North Hoffman 947
St. Charles North Speare 949

[jagerbomb]

not just Peoria, Palatine too.

Fry and Achtein ran better at Palatine (only slightly better for Achtein)


Runner: Peoria Palatine
Fry: 934 921
Achtein: 926 923
Kuczwara: 936 945
M. Sulkin: 951 959
Spicer: 959 972
D'Ambrosio: 971 DNR
S. Sulkin: 987 977 (expected to be the #5)

gotcha sorry about that.

[watchout]

gotcha sorry about that.

no problems

[DetroiterInIL]

Schaumburg beat Neuqua Valley today in a somewhat close race:

There were 31 teams. Here are the top 4:
1. Schaumburg
5 9 10 13 18 (32) (33) = 55
Mike Spain, Jon Roberts, Jim Link, Joey Myszka, Nathan Rutz,
Erich Seimetz, Brian Burkhardt
2. Neuqua Valley
2 4 16 21 23 (36) (42) = 66
Chris Derrick, Jim Riddle, Mike Ruff, Josh Budnick, Kevin Grady,
Danny Pawola, Brian Morenus
3. Pleasant Valley (Iowa)
7 24 27 34 50 (59) (99) = 142
Devin Allbaugh, Jordan Lang, Charlie Paul, Blake Irwin,
Mike Hemming, Austin O'Brien, Jacob Barker
4. Loyola Academy
3 8 39 53 54 (55) (87) = 157
Tom Robbins, Matt Heinz, Brian McGuire, Mark Donohue, Brian Rice,
Dan Steinfels, Kevin Kapolnek

Top individuals:

Place No. TmPl Name Sex Yr Team TIME Pace
===== ==== ==== ======================= === == ============================ ===== =====
1. 1034 1 Dan Chenoweth M 12 Geneseo 14:28 4:50
2. 660 2 Chris Derrick M 11 Neuqua Valley 14:30 4:50
3. 709 3 Tom Robbins M 12 Loyola Academy 14:44 4:55
4. 571 4 Jim Riddle M 11 Neuqua Valley 14:55 4:59
5. 186 5 Mike Spain M 12 Schaumburg 14:55 4:59
6. 945 6 Ryan Jacobs M 12 Hononegah 15:15 5:05
7. 477 7 Devin Allbaugh M 11 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:22 5:08
8. 717 8 Matt Heinz M 12 Loyola Academy 15:23 5:08
9. 189 9 Jon Roberts M 12 Schaumburg 15:26 5:09
10. 197 10 Jim Link M 12 Schaumburg 15:31 5:11
11. 313 11 Kyle Staley M 12 Rock Island 15:38 5:13
12. 74 12 Derek Campbell M 11 Sycamore 15:39 5:13
13. 193 13 Joey Myszka M 12 Schaumburg 15:41 5:14
14. 1254 14 Andrew Mueller M 11 Conant (Hoffman Estates) 15:41 5:14
15. 953 15 Robert Anderson M 12 Hononegah 15:42 5:14
16. 568 16 Mike Ruff M 11 Neuqua Valley 15:43 5:15
17. 1243 17 Jeffrey Thode M 10 Conant (Hoffman Estates) 15:45 5:15
18. 188 18 Nathan Rutz M 11 Schaumburg 15:46 5:16
19. 694 19 Josh Keck M 10 Minooka 15:46 5:16
20. 1192 20 Kyle Boone M 10 Dixon 15:47 5:16
21. 671 21 Josh Budnick M 11 Neuqua Valley 15:47 5:16
22. 1306 22 William O'Malley M 10 Boylan (Rockford) 15:48 5:16
23. 648 23 Kevin Grady M 11 Neuqua Valley 15:48 5:16
24. 461 24 Jordan Lang M 12 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:49 5:17
25. 422 25 Josh Moshier M 12 Riverdale 15:50 5:17
26. 71 26 A.J. Dickerson M 12 Sycamore 15:51 5:17
27. 452 27 Charlie Paul M 11 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:51 5:17
28. 57 28 Stefan Hueber M 11 Sycamore 15:52 5:18
29. 691 29 Nicholas Rousonelos M 12 Minooka 15:53 5:18
30. 1269 30 Tyler Fuchs M 10 Conant (Hoffman Estates) 15:54 5:18
31. 428 31 Colin Mickow M 11 Princeton 15:54 5:18
32. 187 32 Erich Seimetz M 11 Schaumburg 15:55 5:19
33. 210 33 Brian Burkhardt M 11 Schaumburg 15:56 5:19
34. 463 34 Blake Irwin M 11 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:57 5:19

[watchout]

what meet was that at? results on IPTT yet?

[311runXC]

what meet was that at? results on IPTT yet?

http://timingiseverything.com/Races/STX06MA.HTM

full results at the link above. it was the sterling invite.

Pawola from NV seemed to have an off race, as he came in at 15:58. At Woodruff, he was in the 15:30's. Same with Roberts from Schaumburg. He was 15:26 today, but 14:55 at Notre Dame.

[pr25]

As I suspected, Chardon was a little overranked, they took third today at an invite, nearly fourth. Not sure if they are still missing people, but if they are I think it's too late to expect them to come back at full strength this season. Hoover is ranked 5th in Ohio D1. St. Ignatius is ranked 7th and Mentor 14th.

1. Hoover
6 7 13 16 44 (61) (97) = 86
Adam Stackpole, Nick Stroemple, Chad Kostelnik, Kyle Roshak, Andy Motz,
Parker Queen, Chris Pratt
2. Mentor
9 12 14 28 30 (56) (72) = 93
John Distler, Stephen Schulz, Connor Phyfer, Kenny Janosko, Micah
Scott, Jimmy Hudd, David Suhan
3. Chardon
1 4 10 37 48 (63) (79) = 100
Emil Heineking, Luke Grau, Matt Stratman, Steve Paullin, Matt Martin,
Matt West, Alex Toth
4. St. Ignatius
2 17 21 31 33 (34) (40) = 104
Brian Gallagher, Dave Baiko, Bill Whitmore, Jonathan Dewitt, Sean
Stefancin, Clark Langmack, Christian Gilbertson

http://www.baumspage.com/cc/strongsville/2006/bv-o.htm
Individual results at that link.
Edit: Woodridge also beat Lasalle again, 46-52 according to JJhuddle.
1. Woodridge
1 7 8 13 17 (31) (53) = 46
Scott Hilditch, Brian Himelright, David Petrak, Joey McCoy,
Daniel Petrak, Tony Marette, Matthew Weiss
2. Lasalle
3 6 10 15 18 (28) (42) = 52
Jake Nusekabel, Kyle Lang, Corey Spriggs, Ricky Lupp,
Mitchell Huesman, Michael Inderhees, Sean Comer


1 647 DF8H29X Scott Hilditch Woodridge 12 15:19.75
2 216 CE83943 Jake Edwards Hayes 12 15:31.45
3 256 DN72B03 Jake Nusekabel LaSalle 12 15:35.70
4 24 BC91966 Cory McGoldrick Brunswick 12 15:39.10
5 448 CG17903 Nathan Corder Pick. North 11 15:40.60
6 249 CD88265 Kyle Lang LaSalle 12 15:40.70
7 648 CD64219 Brian Himelright Woodridge 11 15:42.05
8 657 DN6SVSW David Petrak Woodridge 12 15:46.20
9 559 DW1YZ5N Galen Dills Unioto 11 15:53.75
10 268 DN3C3TC Corey Spriggs LaSalle 12 15:59.35
11 511 CD71210 Jack Shannon St. Charles 11 16:01.45
12 283 DN7H37A Chris Glibert Mt. Vernon 12 16:04.15
13 650 CB83632 Joey McCoy Woodridge 12 16:10.20
14 418 DA5W8ED Cory Leslie Perkins 11 16:11.45
15 252 DA8ZKDA Ricky Lupp LaSalle 12 16:14.95
16 528 DF8KXS9 Henry Heisey Thomas Worthington 12 16:17.95
17 656 DX8P4MP Daniel Petrak Woodridge 12 16:23.55
18 245 DA8P0M8 Mitchell Huesman LaSalle 12 16:24.65

[watchout]

As I suspected, Chardon was a little overranked, they took third today at an invite, nearly fourth. Not sure if they are still missing people, but if they are I think it's too late to expect them to come back at full strength this season. Hoover is ranked 5th in Ohio D1. St. Ignatius is ranked 7th and Mentor 14th.

1. Hoover
6 7 13 16 44 (61) (97) = 86
Adam Stackpole, Nick Stroemple, Chad Kostelnik, Kyle Roshak, Andy Motz,
Parker Queen, Chris Pratt
2. Mentor
9 12 14 28 30 (56) (72) = 93
John Distler, Stephen Schulz, Connor Phyfer, Kenny Janosko, Micah
Scott, Jimmy Hudd, David Suhan
3. Chardon
1 4 10 37 48 (63) (79) = 100
Emil Heineking, Luke Grau, Matt Stratman, Steve Paullin, Matt Martin,
Matt West, Alex Toth
4. St. Ignatius
2 17 21 31 33 (34) (40) = 104
Brian Gallagher, Dave Baiko, Bill Whitmore, Jonathan Dewitt, Sean
Stefancin, Clark Langmack, Christian Gilbertson

http://www.baumspage.com/cc/strongsville/2006/bv-o.htm
Individual results at that link.
Edit: Woodridge also beat Lasalle again, 46-52 according to JJhuddle.
1. Woodridge
1 7 8 13 17 (31) (53) = 46
Scott Hilditch, Brian Himelright, David Petrak, Joey McCoy,
Daniel Petrak, Tony Marette, Matthew Weiss
2. Lasalle
3 6 10 15 18 (28) (42) = 52
Jake Nusekabel, Kyle Lang, Corey Spriggs, Ricky Lupp,
Mitchell Huesman, Michael Inderhees, Sean Comer


1 647 DF8H29X Scott Hilditch Woodridge 12 15:19.75
2 216 CE83943 Jake Edwards Hayes 12 15:31.45
3 256 DN72B03 Jake Nusekabel LaSalle 12 15:35.70
4 24 BC91966 Cory McGoldrick Brunswick 12 15:39.10
5 448 CG17903 Nathan Corder Pick. North 11 15:40.60
6 249 CD88265 Kyle Lang LaSalle 12 15:40.70
7 648 CD64219 Brian Himelright Woodridge 11 15:42.05
8 657 DN6SVSW David Petrak Woodridge 12 15:46.20
9 559 DW1YZ5N Galen Dills Unioto 11 15:53.75
10 268 DN3C3TC Corey Spriggs LaSalle 12 15:59.35
11 511 CD71210 Jack Shannon St. Charles 11 16:01.45
12 283 DN7H37A Chris Glibert Mt. Vernon 12 16:04.15
13 650 CB83632 Joey McCoy Woodridge 12 16:10.20
14 418 DA5W8ED Cory Leslie Perkins 11 16:11.45
15 252 DA8ZKDA Ricky Lupp LaSalle 12 16:14.95
16 528 DF8KXS9 Henry Heisey Thomas Worthington 12 16:17.95
17 656 DX8P4MP Daniel Petrak Woodridge 12 16:23.55
18 245 DA8P0M8 Mitchell Huesman LaSalle 12 16:24.65


For Chardon, it's not that they are missing someone... their #5/6/7 were all about the same, and they are missing one of them, but that's not really a big deal. However, their #4, Matt Martin, who used to be up with the trio... he's been falling behind more and more every race, and that's their real worry right now (I would think).



1 1 32 DN6X9AS Emil Heineking Chardon 15:13.46
4 4 31 DF7FNVT Luke Grau Chardon 16:03.61
10 10 42 DN6XK7M Matt Stratman Chardon 16:19.76
37 37 38 DN6XK1E Steve Paullin Chardon 17:03.91
49 48 35 DX20WMM Matt Martin Chardon 17:12.76

...

Stick a fork in Chardon, they aren't going to get any recognition from the rankings committee now. And if they keep running like that, they won't get any anywhere else either.

What was a #1-4 spread of about 70 seconds and a #1-6 spread of 1:30 has just gotten bigger and bigger, some due to illness and injury, and who knows what this is now. They obviously aren't healthy, and they obviously aren't getting better, they are getting worse. Even if they win state now, I don't think it would be enough for even a top-7 MW ranking.

[Fast4]

Ok, I think I have everything included now...


Teams:

Dexter 1 11 15 25 34 63 70 86
York 5 6 13 32 38 53 60 94
Pinckney 7 27 28 37 44 56 90 143
Woodridge 4 21 35 46 75 111 113 181
LaSalle 24 26 33 54 88 91 97 225
Palatine 16 19 57 69 78 94 116 239



Individuals:

Dexter Aprill 901
Chardon Heineking 906
Warren Central Turner 910
Woodridge Hilditch 921
York Fry 921
York Achtien 923
Pinckney Emery 928
Schaumburg Spain 929
Neuqua Valley Derrick 930
Chardon Grau 933
Dexter Jackson 933
St. John Jesuit M.Lemon 933
York Kuczwara 936



Oh silly Watchout. there you go being an idiot again. Are you seriously telling me tha Dexter is beating York?? Im sure you calculations and your rocket science work in your brain somehow. But the fact that you actually thought Rock Springs deserved to go over Palatine last year has pretty much made any of your calculations and/or predictions bogus by most people's standards. York is just as strong as last year. Achtien/Fry are the equivalent of the Dettman twins. Kuczwara is a top 15 threat. And the strong collection of 4-9 runners should produce at least 1-2 more all staters. having 4th-5th guys who ran 15:06-15:14 not including S. Sulkin or Tim Jung make this team a threat to win the whole thing. If a team with York's tradition of excellence just doesnt seem to have the horses then I would understand your logic. But York has made it overwhelmingy clear that they are going to make another very real run at winning NTN's. And knowing who their coach is, knowing how they perform in big races there is just no evidence to indicate that they are anything other than national title contenders who will be running their best at the end of the season when it counts most. York had a 1-5 split of 33 seconds at the Peoria invite without S. Sulkin who is clearly a top 4-6 runner for them. If Achtien runs 14:26-32 (reasonable expectation for him) at state. And York 5th man holds that split, York will put 5 guys at 14:55 or better. That makes them pretty legit dont you think???

[Otto Mann]

Oh silly Watchout. there you go being an idiot again. Are you seriously telling me tha Dexter is beating York?? Im sure you calculations and your rocket science work in your brain somehow. But the fact that you actually thought Rock Springs deserved to go over Palatine last year has pretty much made any of your calculations and/or predictions bogus by most people's standards. York is just as strong as last year. Achtien/Fry are the equivalent of the Dettman twins. Kuczwara is a top 15 threat. And the strong collection of 4-9 runners should produce at least 1-2 more all staters. having 4th-5th guys who ran 15:06-15:14 not including S. Sulkin or Tim Jung make this team a threat to win the whole thing. If a team with York's tradition of excellence just doesnt seem to have the horses then I would understand your logic. But York has made it overwhelmingy clear that they are going to make another very real run at winning NTN's. And knowing who their coach is, knowing how they perform in big races there is just no evidence to indicate that they are anything other than national title contenders who will be running their best at the end of the season when it counts most. York had a 1-5 split of 33 seconds at the Peoria invite without S. Sulkin who is clearly a top 4-6 runner for them. If Achtien runs 14:26-32 (reasonable expectation for him) at state. And York 5th man holds that split, York will put 5 guys at 14:55 or better. That makes them pretty legit dont you think???

STFU, Did you actually look at Dexter's team? Look at their performance at Portage and then come back with a real response.

[jagerbomb]

STFU, Did you actually look at Dexter's team? Look at their performance at Portage and then come back with a real response.
well on the basis that this york team matches up very favorably with the last 2 (1st and 2nd at NTN), dexter better be a contender for the NTN title to say they are better then york right now.

[luv2run]

well on the basis that this york team matches up very favorably with the last 2 (1st and 2nd at NTN), dexter better be a contender for the NTN title to say they are better then york right now.The only reason Dexter isn't a conteder for the NTN title is because the MHSAA won't let them go.

[watchout]

Oh silly Watchout. there you go being an idiot again. Are you seriously telling me tha Dexter is beating York?? Im sure you calculations and your rocket science work in your brain somehow. But the fact that you actually thought Rock Springs deserved to go over Palatine last year has pretty much made any of your calculations and/or predictions bogus by most people's standards. York is just as strong as last year. Achtien/Fry are the equivalent of the Dettman twins. Kuczwara is a top 15 threat. And the strong collection of 4-9 runners should produce at least 1-2 more all staters. having 4th-5th guys who ran 15:06-15:14 not including S. Sulkin or Tim Jung make this team a threat to win the whole thing. If a team with York's tradition of excellence just doesnt seem to have the horses then I would understand your logic. But York has made it overwhelmingy clear that they are going to make another very real run at winning NTN's. And knowing who their coach is, knowing how they perform in big races there is just no evidence to indicate that they are anything other than national title contenders who will be running their best at the end of the season when it counts most. York had a 1-5 split of 33 seconds at the Peoria invite without S. Sulkin who is clearly a top 4-6 runner for them. If Achtien runs 14:26-32 (reasonable expectation for him) at state. And York 5th man holds that split, York will put 5 guys at 14:55 or better. That makes them pretty legit dont you think???


Rock Springs: They deserved the bid because they were more consistant. That backfired when their #1/2 runner was their #6. They were easily as good as Warren Central. Palatine was the best of the three, just going by best performances. It was that they didn't do that throughout the season, that's why they didn't deserve the bid. They had one very good meet, put them top-7 in the nation. The rest of the time they were in the mid-30's. Rock Springs was consistantly #10-25.

I know that York is as strong as they were last year. That's why they are ranked US#4. But Dexter is the current US#1...

and once again, this isn't ranking the teams based on what they will do, this is ranking the teams based on what they have done. results, not predictions.

[daman]

Rock Springs: They deserved the bid because they were more consistant. That backfired when their #1/2 runner was their #6. They were easily as good as Warren Central. Palatine was the best of the three, just going by best performances. It was that they didn't do that throughout the season, that's why they didn't deserve the bid. They had one very good meet, put them top-7 in the nation. The rest of the time they were in the mid-30's. Rock Springs was consistantly #10-25.

I know that York is as strong as they were last year. That's why they are ranked US#4. But Dexter is the current US#1...

and once again, this isn't ranking the teams based on what they will do, this is ranking the teams based on what they have done. results, not predictions.This was beat like an old dog last year, but the argument remains the same:

How consistent would Rock Springs have looked had they run in Illinois all season?

It doesn't matter....if you take a look at the NE forum, they've already positioned themselves for 3 spots. Bloom generously ranked Coatesville US#3, and now they are saying 2 NY schools are virtually equal to Coatesville, in spite of doing nothing so far. So you know what that means. They're looking to get at least 3 teams in and likely sleaze in a 4th again.

[watchout]

This was beat like an old dog last year, but the argument remains the same:

How consistent would Rock Springs have looked had they run in Illinois all season?

It doesn't matter....if you take a look at the NE forum, they've already positioned themselves for 3 spots. Bloom generously ranked Coatesville US#3, and now they are saying 2 NY schools are virtually equal to Coatesville, in spite of doing nothing so far. So you know what that means. They're looking to get at least 3 teams in and likely sleaze in a 4th again.

NE won't get 4 this year. But they might get 3, you're right. Good chance of that

[Fast4]

Rock Springs: They deserved the bid because they were more consistant. That backfired when their #1/2 runner was their #6. They were easily as good as Warren Central. Palatine was the best of the three, just going by best performances. It was that they didn't do that throughout the season, that's why they didn't deserve the bid. They had one very good meet, put them top-7 in the nation. The rest of the time they were in the mid-30's. Rock Springs was consistantly #10-25.

I know that York is as strong as they were last year. That's why they are ranked US#4. But Dexter is the current US#1...

and once again, this isn't ranking the teams based on what they will do, this is ranking the teams based on what they have done. results, not predictions.

The reason why Palatine didnt make it last year wasn't about how solid/weak they were throughout the year. They didnt go because they got whooped pretty good by York. And regardless of how great York is, people are under the assumption that if you get beat by 60-70pts at state you arent' that great. When in fact, if you replaced Palatine with any other team in the country you couldnt find more than 3-4 that could claim to get within even 30pts of York. Big loss = not going despite the fact that York #2 in the country.

[daman]

The reason why Palatine didnt make it last year wasn't about how solid/weak they were throughout the year. They didnt go because they got whooped pretty good by York. And regardless of how great York is, people are under the assumption that if you get beat by 60-70pts at state you arent' that great. When in fact, if you replaced Palatine with any other team in the country you couldnt find more than 3-4 that could claim to get within even 30pts of York. Big loss = not going despite the fact that York #2 in the country.Yeah, for some reason I couldn't picture the 2005 Rock Springs team doing any one of the following 3:

1) Finish 1st or 2nd in the MSL

2) Finish 3rd or better in the Bremen Sectional

3) Finish top 5 at IL state

[watchout]

The reason why Palatine didnt make it last year wasn't about how solid/weak they were throughout the year. They didnt go because they got whooped pretty good by York. And regardless of how great York is, people are under the assumption that if you get beat by 60-70pts at state you arent' that great. When in fact, if you replaced Palatine with any other team in the country you couldnt find more than 3-4 that could claim to get within even 30pts of York. Big loss = not going despite the fact that York #2 in the country.

If Palatine was ranked #2 or #3 before the state meet, because of excellent runs throughout the season, I think the story would have been different. They might have taken the bid from either Rock Springs or Warren Central. It would show that they didn't just have one outstanding performance at the end of the season, and not really anything else to back it up.

Once again - they did not distance themselves from the rest of the pack in Illinois, let alone the MW... in fact, they appeared to be anywhere from #3-#6 in Illinois alone for most the season. That's not the type of season you need to get a bid into NTN. This year, they have been winning. That's a step up, but it's still not too impressive... 5 point wins can only take you so far. However, their best is still yet to be seen (their dual meet vs. Schaumburg is probably their best meet thus far, but that isn't really going to get taken into a whole lot of consideration)

Palatine didn't not get the bid because they were so far back at state. That might have helped, but it was not the biggest reason.

[daman]

If Palatine was ranked #2 or #3 before the state meet, because of excellent runs throughout the season, I think the story would have been different. They might have taken the bid from either Rock Springs or Warren Central. It would show that they didn't just have one outstanding performance at the end of the season, and not really anything else to back it up.

Once again - they did not distance themselves from the rest of the pack in Illinois, let alone the MW... in fact, they appeared to be anywhere from #3-#6 in Illinois alone for most the season. That's not the type of season you need to get a bid into NTN. This year, they have been winning. That's a step up, but it's still not too impressive... 5 point wins can only take you so far. However, their best is still yet to be seen (their dual meet vs. Schaumburg is probably their best meet thus far, but that isn't really going to get taken into a whole lot of consideration)

Palatine didn't not get the bid because they were so far back at state. That might have helped, but it was not the biggest reason.No no no.....

Look back at history and you'll see they got screwed no matter what they did.

2004

Ranked MW#2, they win their sectional by a point with their 5th runner not running and they were dropped to 4th, then after finishing 2nd to York at state were dropped to 5th obviously based on the misleading point spread. York wins NTN easily and it was calculated that Palatine would've been around 7th place with their state performance.

2005

Unranked regionally this time at state, due to a poor sectional meet Palatine jumped to MW#3 after their state performance, in spite of the same point spread as 2004, then was dropped to #4 behind LaSalle AFTER both teams had completed their seasons. That took them out of any chance at an at-large bid. York gets 2nd at NTN and it's again calculated that Palatine was top 10 with their state performance.

So NTN obviously placed a lot on state meet performance....the first time, they misjudged it completely and really screwed Palatine, the second time they learned their lesson, but screwed them by inexplicably dropping them to MW#4 after the season was over.

This year....they have won during the season. It doesn't matter by how much, because last year showed that a team can jump in the rankings with a great state meet. NTN even says in their criteria that running well late is preferable to running well early.

So if they continue to win and then take a second to York at state in a similar manner as 2004/2005, they should go. It's been proven that York skewers any perception of defeat at state.

[watchout]

No no no.....

Look back at history and you'll see they got screwed no matter what they did.

2004

Ranked MW#2, they win their sectional by a point with their 5th runner not running and they were dropped to 4th, then after finishing 2nd to York at state were dropped to 5th obviously based on the misleading point spread. York wins NTN easily and it was calculated that Palatine would've been around 7th place with their state performance.

2005

Unranked regionally this time at state, due to a poor sectional meet Palatine jumped to MW#3 after their state performance, in spite of the same point spread as 2004, then was dropped to #4 behind LaSalle AFTER both teams had completed their seasons. That took them out of any chance at an at-large bid. York gets 2nd at NTN and it's again calculated that Palatine was top 10 with their state performance.

So NTN obviously placed a lot on state meet performance....the first time, they misjudged it completely and really screwed Palatine, the second time they learned their lesson, but screwed them by inexplicably dropping them to MW#4 after the season was over.

This year....they have won during the season. It doesn't matter by how much, because last year showed that a team can jump in the rankings with a great state meet. NTN even says in their criteria that running well late is preferable to running well early.

So if they continue to win and then take a second to York at state in a similar manner as 2004/2005, they should go. It's been proven that York skewers any perception of defeat at state.


of course they put a lot of weighting on the state meet. but look at the jump that Palatine made in the rankings DESPITE losing by so much to York.

2004, maybe the margin hurt them. But not in 2005.

2005 was all because they didn't impress during the season. Maybe if they were ranked top-5 before the state meet, and then ran what they ran at the state meet, they would have been #2 or #3. LaSalle got their ranking because Bloom was on drugs (not really, but figuratively)... if you want an at-large bid, you have to prove it during the season as well as at your state meet. I don't think we will ever see a team get an at large because of a great state meet, but without any other meets to choose from. At-large bids seem to go to the teams who have the best records against out of state, and out of region, competition. (although Morris Hills was an exception to that... they proved themselves timewise on courses in New Jersey, but that was all)

That's why I keep saying that you have to build an "at large resume" if you want to be considered for an at large bid... state meet will result mostly in the pecking order in-state. Against other states, and most importantly against other regions, the mid-season invitationals are where you have to prove yourself.

Break the season into 3 parts:
Sept. 23-Oct. 1 is the first real tests of the season.
Oct. 1-Oct. 14 is the final say with invitationals.
Oct. 15-Nov. whatever is the championship season.

use the first block of the season to get noticed and get yourself ranked.

use the second block of the season to beat teams that are overranked and make yourself look good.

use the third block of the season to put the final say in the hands of the committee, knowing that you seperated yourselves from the rest of the section/state and that your invitationals were no fluke, you are that much better than the other teams from other state.

I think that's the basic building block to get NTN recognition.

For Illinois teams:
*You probably want to run a Peoria invite to give the runners more of a feel for the state course, and use it as an early season test against other top teams. You can get some consideration for ranking here, but it's early and won't matter at the end of the season... just sets you up for the real season, like getting a good preseason ranking.

*Hit up either the Palatine Invite or Culver Invite (IN). Both are very competitive meets almost every year.

*Hit up either the Portage Invite (MI) or a top-notch local invite... I can't think of any invite anywhere near as tough as Palatine, maybe go to Peoria to face off with York.

*And then put any remaining question out of the committee's mind with dominating runs at regionals, sectionals and state.

[daman]

of course they put a lot of weighting on the state meet. but look at the jump that Palatine made in the rankings DESPITE losing by so much to York.

2004, maybe the margin hurt them. But not in 2005.

2005 was all because they didn't impress during the season. Maybe if they were ranked top-5 before the state meet, and then ran what they ran at the state meet, they would have been #2 or #3. LaSalle got their ranking because Bloom was on drugs (not really, but figuratively)... if you want an at-large bid, you have to prove it during the season as well as at your state meet. I don't think we will ever see a team get an at large because of a great state meet, but without any other meets to choose from. At-large bids seem to go to the teams who have the best records against out of state, and out of region, competition. (although Morris Hills was an exception to that... they proved themselves timewise on courses in New Jersey, but that was all)

That's why I keep saying that you have to build an "at large resume" if you want to be considered for an at large bid... state meet will result mostly in the pecking order in-state. Against other states, and most importantly against other regions, the mid-season invitationals are where you have to prove yourself.

Break the season into 3 parts:
Sept. 23-Oct. 1 is the first real tests of the season.
Oct. 1-Oct. 14 is the final say with invitationals.
Oct. 15-Nov. whatever is the championship season.

use the first block of the season to get noticed and get yourself ranked.

use the second block of the season to beat teams that are overranked and make yourself look good.

use the third block of the season to put the final say in the hands of the committee, knowing that you seperated yourselves from the rest of the section/state and that your invitationals were no fluke, you are that much better than the other teams from other state.

I think that's the basic building block to get NTN recognition.

For Illinois teams:
*You probably want to run a Peoria invite to give the runners more of a feel for the state course, and use it as an early season test against other top teams. You can get some consideration for ranking here, but it's early and won't matter at the end of the season... just sets you up for the real season, like getting a good preseason ranking.

*Hit up either the Palatine Invite or Culver Invite (IN). Both are very competitive meets almost every year.

*Hit up either the Portage Invite (MI) or a top-notch local invite... I can't think of any invite anywhere near as tough as Palatine, maybe go to Peoria to face off with York.

*And then put any remaining question out of the committee's mind with dominating runs at regionals, sectionals and state.That's unrealistic and I don't think most states go through what you suggest.

What you're suggesting is a team tailor their schedule to run hard against top competition from Sept to Nov.....that's not good coaching and in the case of Illinois you are always running quality teams in addition to the top program in the nation. What's especially galling is that teams like Rock Springs and Coatesville run against turds most of the season, and can maybe point to a specific race. You can't do that in Illinois because there are too many good teams that can beat you if you ignore your in-season schedule.

How many meets are tougher than PND or Palatine? Palatine and Sandburg ran both.

[watchout]

That's unrealistic and I don't think most states go through what you suggest.

What you're suggesting is a team tailor their schedule to run hard against top competition from Sept to Nov.....that's not good coaching and in the case of Illinois you are always running quality teams in addition to the top program in the nation. What's especially galling is that teams like Rock Springs and Coatesville run against turds most of the season, and can maybe point to a specific race. You can't do that in Illinois because there are too many good teams that can beat you if you ignore your in-season schedule.

How many meets are tougher than PND or Palatine? Palatine and Sandburg ran both.

I never said run hard against top competition from Sept. to Novemeber... look at what York does, look at what New York teams do, look at what most Washington teams do. They set up 2 major invitationals - one at the end of Septemeber, and one in the middle of October before championship series begins - and still try to peak for state.

That's only adding one more invitational to what Illinois teams already do (one in mid October) and de-emphasizing the early season Peoria meets - those are more of early season fitness tests and a good chance to run on the state course.

In fact, I think it would be a great idea if the Peoria Central meet - another chance to run against York - became the dominant Peoria meet. That gives the teams a chance to run at the state course, plus gives them good competition in the middle stage of the season - which is more important than the early season.

Really, the season starts in the last couple weeks in September... that's just moving the schedule up a week or two and shouldn't be harmful or even out of the question for some of these teams.

What's the problem with moving your 2nd most important invite from early September to early/mid October? It's not going to make your team have to run harder for longer, it's going to make that portion of the season actually shorter... de-emphasizing the early season tests and emphasizing a build up to the state series.

[daman]

I never said run hard against top competition from Sept. to Novemeber... look at what York does, look at what New York teams do, look at what most Washington teams do. They set up 2 major invitationals - one at the end of Septemeber, and one in the middle of October before championship series begins - and still try to peak for state.

That's only adding one more invitational to what Illinois teams already do (one in mid October) and de-emphasizing the early season Peoria meets - those are more of early season fitness tests and a good chance to run on the state course.

In fact, I think it would be a great idea if the Peoria Central meet - another chance to run against York - became the dominant Peoria meet. That gives the teams a chance to run at the state course, plus gives them good competition in the middle stage of the season - which is more important than the early season.

Really, the season starts in the last couple weeks in September... that's just moving the schedule up a week or two and shouldn't be harmful or even out of the question for some of these teams.

What's the problem with moving your 2nd most important invite from early September to early/mid October? It's not going to make your team have to run harder for longer, it's going to make that portion of the season actually shorter... de-emphasizing the early season tests and emphasizing a build up to the state series.Again...not realistic....most MW states have their state meet in late October, early November...you have to start the season in early September.

New York teams start their season a month later than Illinois teams and don't run state until late November, which is an advantage as it is.

And if everyone ran a schedule like York there would be hardly anyone running anywhere.

[watchout]

Again...not realistic....most MW states have their state meet in late October, early November...you have to start the season in early September.

New York teams start their season a month later than Illinois teams and don't run state until late November, which is an advantage as it is.

And if everyone ran a schedule like York there would be hardly anyone running anywhere.

I'm not talking about stopping your running... just re-emphasizing points in the season.

Again.. just saying to focus more on maybe Peoria Central Invitational, build that one up to where PND is since Crete Mone is apparently getting worse each year?

that should be the focus anyways, building towards the state meet. It's the same idea... early season, who cares? late september is when teams need to start running, early/mid october is when you are gearing up for regionals/sectionals in prep. for state.

I don't see how moving your 2nd biggest meet to where it's closer to when you're in your best shape is going to be detremental compared to what the current scheme is...

[daman]

I'm not talking about stopping your running... just re-emphasizing points in the season.

Again.. just saying to focus more on maybe Peoria Central Invitational, build that one up to where PND is since Crete Mone is apparently getting worse each year?

that should be the focus anyways, building towards the state meet. It's the same idea... early season, who cares? late september is when teams need to start running, early/mid october is when you are gearing up for regionals/sectionals in prep. for state.

I don't see how moving your 2nd biggest meet to where it's closer to when you're in your best shape is going to be detremental compared to what the current scheme is...

You do know that conference meets are this weekend in Illinois. It will be Oct 13/14.....no one is going to focus or run a big invite the week before conference, because there is no break after that. Conf/Reg/Sect/State.

The earliest something could be run would have been on 9/30....two weeks after PND, one week after Palatine....do you really think that's going to make a difference?

[greenman]

I'm not talking about stopping your running... just re-emphasizing points in the season.

Again.. just saying to focus more on maybe Peoria Central Invitational, build that one up to where PND is since Crete Mone is apparently getting worse each year?

that should be the focus anyways, building towards the state meet. It's the same idea... early season, who cares? late september is when teams need to start running, early/mid october is when you are gearing up for regionals/sectionals in prep. for state.

I don't see how moving your 2nd biggest meet to where it's closer to when you're in your best shape is going to be detremental compared to what the current scheme is...It's not a long season, two months from September thru October, with state the first week in November. I can't see trying to cram in a tough invite into the October race schedule. You could end up robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Ironically, you would be better trying to get York early at Palatine and not later when they really start getting tough.

[watchout]

Schaumburg beat Neuqua Valley today in a somewhat close race:

There were 31 teams. Here are the top 4:
1. Schaumburg
5 9 10 13 18 (32) (33) = 55
Mike Spain, Jon Roberts, Jim Link, Joey Myszka, Nathan Rutz,
Erich Seimetz, Brian Burkhardt
2. Neuqua Valley
2 4 16 21 23 (36) (42) = 66
Chris Derrick, Jim Riddle, Mike Ruff, Josh Budnick, Kevin Grady,
Danny Pawola, Brian Morenus
3. Pleasant Valley (Iowa)
7 24 27 34 50 (59) (99) = 142
Devin Allbaugh, Jordan Lang, Charlie Paul, Blake Irwin,
Mike Hemming, Austin O'Brien, Jacob Barker
4. Loyola Academy
3 8 39 53 54 (55) (87) = 157
Tom Robbins, Matt Heinz, Brian McGuire, Mark Donohue, Brian Rice,
Dan Steinfels, Kevin Kapolnek

Top individuals:

Place No. TmPl Name Sex Yr Team TIME Pace
===== ==== ==== ======================= === == ============================ ===== =====
1. 1034 1 Dan Chenoweth M 12 Geneseo 14:28 4:50
2. 660 2 Chris Derrick M 11 Neuqua Valley 14:30 4:50
3. 709 3 Tom Robbins M 12 Loyola Academy 14:44 4:55
4. 571 4 Jim Riddle M 11 Neuqua Valley 14:55 4:59
5. 186 5 Mike Spain M 12 Schaumburg 14:55 4:59
6. 945 6 Ryan Jacobs M 12 Hononegah 15:15 5:05
7. 477 7 Devin Allbaugh M 11 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:22 5:08
8. 717 8 Matt Heinz M 12 Loyola Academy 15:23 5:08
9. 189 9 Jon Roberts M 12 Schaumburg 15:26 5:09
10. 197 10 Jim Link M 12 Schaumburg 15:31 5:11
11. 313 11 Kyle Staley M 12 Rock Island 15:38 5:13
12. 74 12 Derek Campbell M 11 Sycamore 15:39 5:13
13. 193 13 Joey Myszka M 12 Schaumburg 15:41 5:14
14. 1254 14 Andrew Mueller M 11 Conant (Hoffman Estates) 15:41 5:14
15. 953 15 Robert Anderson M 12 Hononegah 15:42 5:14
16. 568 16 Mike Ruff M 11 Neuqua Valley 15:43 5:15
17. 1243 17 Jeffrey Thode M 10 Conant (Hoffman Estates) 15:45 5:15
18. 188 18 Nathan Rutz M 11 Schaumburg 15:46 5:16
19. 694 19 Josh Keck M 10 Minooka 15:46 5:16
20. 1192 20 Kyle Boone M 10 Dixon 15:47 5:16
21. 671 21 Josh Budnick M 11 Neuqua Valley 15:47 5:16
22. 1306 22 William O'Malley M 10 Boylan (Rockford) 15:48 5:16
23. 648 23 Kevin Grady M 11 Neuqua Valley 15:48 5:16
24. 461 24 Jordan Lang M 12 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:49 5:17
25. 422 25 Josh Moshier M 12 Riverdale 15:50 5:17
26. 71 26 A.J. Dickerson M 12 Sycamore 15:51 5:17
27. 452 27 Charlie Paul M 11 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:51 5:17
28. 57 28 Stefan Hueber M 11 Sycamore 15:52 5:18
29. 691 29 Nicholas Rousonelos M 12 Minooka 15:53 5:18
30. 1269 30 Tyler Fuchs M 10 Conant (Hoffman Estates) 15:54 5:18
31. 428 31 Colin Mickow M 11 Princeton 15:54 5:18
32. 187 32 Erich Seimetz M 11 Schaumburg 15:55 5:19
33. 210 33 Brian Burkhardt M 11 Schaumburg 15:56 5:19
34. 463 34 Blake Irwin M 11 Pleasant Valley (Iowa) 15:57 5:19



added the meet in ... Derrick is now = Cybulski!
915c.
15 seconds improvement

not a very good meet for Schaumburg here, though... good for Myszka and their #5/6, but their front guys didn't do that well.

[DetroiterInIL]

added the meet in ... Derrick is now = Cybulski!
915c.
15 seconds improvement

not a very good meet for Schaumburg here, though... good for Myszka and their #5/6, but their front guys didn't do that well.

I'm confused on your last statement relative to your results compilation. I looked at the thread on the Elite board from late last night and noticed that Schaumburg is ahead of Palatine (which was the other way around about a few days ago). Given that you said "not a very good meet for Schaumburg" doesn't seem consistent. Can you clarify?

Also... can you repost the individuals somewhere.

[watchout]

I'm confused on your last statement relative to your results compilation. I looked at the thread on the Elite board from late last night and noticed that Schaumburg is ahead of Palatine (which was the other way around about a few days ago). Given that you said "not a very good meet for Schaumburg" doesn't seem consistent. Can you clarify?

Also... can you repost the individuals somewhere.

For Schaumburg as a whole, the meet was not very good. Their top 2 ran 20+ seconds off their normal.

However, their #4 had a big race - compared to the other one I had for him - and dropped his time by about 13 seconds.

Scores very well might have changed because I took out the excess at the back end of the compilation... taking out 20-some teams and adding in a new 14 or so teams will change the outlook of the race sometimes, especially when the teams are close (like all the IL teams are). Or it might be because it was a different order for the = times? I don't really pay attention to that since it could go either way...



Individuals:

Dakota Ridge Appel 896
Davis Senior Gregg 899
Seattle Prep Max ODMD 900
Dexter Aprill 901
Shenendehowa Murdock 905
Warren Central Turner 910
Tahoma Lafler 914
Ferris Hickerson 915
Neuqua Valley Derrick 915
Royal Cybulski 915
Southlake Carroll Lowe 915
Potosi Thebeau 918
Davis UT Ward 920
Albuquerque Academy Johnson 920
Woodridge Hilditch 921
York Fry 921
Trabuco Hills JT Sullivan 922
Borah Bosch 923
Coatesville K. Dawson 923
Potosi Mathis 923
York Achtien 923
Central Valley Thatcher 925
A&M Consolidated Phillips 926
Central Valley Coyle 928
Gig Harbor Williams 928
Pinckney Emery 928
Woodlands Neff 928
Bismarck Osoro 929
Royal Andrews 929
Schaumburg Spain 929
Campbell County Burke 929
Mead Hatcher 930
Ferris Olsen 931
Fort Zumwalt So. Rood 931
Crater Keyser 932
Rosemount Carlson 932
Dexter Jackson 933
St. John Jesuit M.Lemon 933
Willmar Awale 933
Trabuco Hills Riley Sullivan 934
Albuquerque Academy Martin 934
Brentsville Henken 936
Gig Harbor Unterreiner 936
Mead Lynch 936
Mountain Crest Hedin 936
St. John Jesuit Miller 937
Upland Gamboa 937
Central Catholic Morgan 938
Dexter Bishop 938
El Toro Masci 938
Ferris Quackenbush 938
Palatine Patel 938
Jesuit Sac Watchempino 939
Neuqua Valley Riddle 939
Southlake Carroll Brown 939
Borah Huey 940
Brentsville Melius 940
Carmel Rich 940
Midlothian Witt 940
Palatine Smoody 940
Schaumburg Roberts 940
Warwick Prial 940
Jesuit Sac McKennan 941
Collegiate Williams 942
Woodridge Petrak 942
Franklin Central Green 943
Mead Daratha 943
St. John Jesuit C.Lemon 943
LaSalle Lang 944
Dexter Steavenson 945
LaSalle Spriggs 945
Pinckney Hankins 945
Pinckney Marcum 945
York Kuczwara 945
Davis Senior Lynch 946
Kodiak T.Dunbar 946
Bloomington North Hoffman 947
El Toro McDonald 947
Collegiate Trotzuk 948
Willmar Adeys 948
Campbell County Kelting 948
Jesuit Portland Manning 949
St. Charles North Speare 949
Bozeman Jackson 950
Cheyenne Central Foley 950
Flathead Grossman 951
Reno Juarez 951
LaSalle Nusekable 952
Central Catholic Turina 953
Ferris Laplante 953
Wayzata Lambert 953
Royal Reichl 954
Shenendehowa Predmore 954
Albuquerque Academy Zacharias 954
La Cueva Porter 954
Cheyenne Central Franke 954
Dexter Neely 955
Fort Zumwalt So. Cole 955
Trabuco Hills Scott Blair 955
Woodridge Himelright 955
Ferris Maloney 956
Shenendehowa Quinn 956
Coatesville Leonard 957
Potosi Swearingen 957
St. Charles North DeSilva 957
Upland Davila 957
El Toro Haji 958
Kodiak Pena 958
Pinckney Hohl 958
Royal Benson 958
Campbell County Robinson 958
Central Valley Taylor 959
Collegiate Begho 959
Lincoln Carpenter 959
Rosemount Bumgarner 959
Trabuco Hills Chris Mosier 959
York Sulkin 959
Bloomington North Schoch 960
Danbury Ahearn 960
Sandburg Adamowski 960
Sandburg Sideras 960
Seattle Prep Styrk 960
Tahoma Duffy 960
Wheat Ridge WR1LB 960
Arcadia Pilavjian 961
Crater Santana 961
Jesuit Portland Larson 961
Sandburg LaRocque 961
Coatesville Pannula 962
Collegiate Alexis 962
Madera Orea 962
Potosi ****eman 962
Warren Central Richardson 962
Davis Senior Bonner 963
Fort Zumwalt So. Funderburk 963
Woodlands Blair 963
Gallup Smith 963
Cheyenne Central Wilder 963
A&M Consolidated Tomkins 964
Jesuit Sac Salvatierra 964
Pinckney Katsefaras 964
Cheyenne Central Rathburn 964
Borah Nielsen 965
Collegiate Vizcarrondo 965
Royal Routh 965
Willmar Bedel 965
Wheat Ridge WR2LB 965
Arcadia Poizat 966
Carmel Rosenburg 966
Woodridge McCoy 966
La Cueva Everett 966
Flathead Nystuen 967
St. Charles North Barker 967
Bozeman Brekke 968
Brainerd Tyner 968
Franklin Central Mitchell 968
Franklin Central Lassiter 968
Lincoln Mathabane 968
Mead Nepon 968
North Central Tyler 968
Woodlands Downey 968
Jesuit Portland Kessler 969
Madera Sanchez 969
Sandia Nickerson 969
Sandia Hartenberger 969
El Toro Hausmaninger 970
Jesuit Portland Maag 970
Jesuit Sac Lackner 970
Midlothian Merritt 970
North Central Dean 970
Rio Rico Molera 970
Arcadia Romero 971
Bozeman Burns 971
Naperville North Gibson 971
Sandburg Smith 971
Sandia Kalm 971
Central Valley Aguilar 972
York Spicer 972
Jesuit Sac Donahue 973
LaSalle Lupp 973
Potosi Forbes 973
Schaumburg Link 973
Wheat Ridge WR3LB 973
Arcadia Chen 974
Coatesville O. Dawson 974
Lincoln Parker 974
Pinckney Wines 974
Bismarck Huizenga 975
Central Catholic Wiltshire 975
Central Catholic O'Malley 975
Mead Bishop 975
Palatine O'Brien 975


MW guys only:
Naperville North Harper 977
York S.Sulkin 977
Naperville North Fisher 980
Carmel Bowman 981
Dexter Hess 982
Neuqua Valley Pawola 982
Schaumburg Rutz 982
St. Charles North Johnson 982
Palatine Dettloff 984
Dexter Martin 985
Neuqua Valley Budnik 985
Sandburg Archer 986
Warren Central Smith 986
Carmel Smith 987
Schaumburg Myszka 987
Woodridge Dan Petrak 987
Bloomington North Autio 988
Franklin Central Talhelm 988
Neuqua Valley Ruff 988
Palatine Lopez 988
Sandburg Marbach 989
Bloomington North Buzzeli 990
St. Charles North Sanchez 991
Neuqua Valley Grady 993
Warren Central Aldrich 994
Carmel Courtney 995
Naperville North Newman 996
Sandburg Young 997
LaSalle Inderhees 998
St. Charles North Clink 998
Pinckney Poyhonen 1000
Schaumburg Seimetz 1000
Schaumburg Burkhardt 1001
LaSalle Juesman 1003
Warren Central Pack 1005
Naperville North Sadlik 1006
Palatine Mourousias 1006
Bloomington North Jackson 1008
LaSalle Comer 1008
St. Charles North Miller 1012
Neuqua Valley Morenus 1013
Warren Central Wenrich 1013
St. John Jesuit Madaras 1018
St. John Jesuit Wagner 1019

[daman]

For Schaumburg as a whole, the meet was not very good. Their top 2 ran 20+ seconds off their normal.

However, their #4 had a big race - compared to the other one I had for him - and dropped his time by about 13 seconds.

Scores very well might have changed because I took out the excess at the back end of the compilation... taking out 20-some teams and adding in a new 14 or so teams will change the outlook of the race sometimes, especially when the teams are close (like all the IL teams are). Or it might be because it was a different order for the = times? I don't really pay attention to that since it could go either way...



But yet Schaumburg beats NV in spite of not running well. I think this meet actually points to the achilles of NV in large meets. Their 3-4-5 seem to be behind Palatine, Schaumburg, and Sandburg. I also believe that SCN, Wheaton North and Nap.North are also better at these spots.

We'll see this Saturday when NV and SCN hook up in conference and see where these positions place. NV will likely go 1-2 on SCN, but if SCN runs the next 4-5 places, then I think that will be a problem for NV at state.

NV may be ranked 5th in Illinois, but rankings only take into account meets run, and none of those meets will have the huge displacement factor of state.

[Fast4]

Oh Watchout, your little table of contents is so awful I don't know where to begin. I love how Achtien is so far behind Chris Derrick. 14:41 winning all by himself. I'm sure Achtien would be delighted to know how poorly he stacks up. Fry too. Guess when they both finish top 5 with only Jager-Chenoweth-Havel in their league you will have to........"recalculate"

[jagerbomb]

Oh Watchout, your little table of contents is so awful I don't know where to begin. I love how Achtien is so far behind Chris Derrick. 14:41 winning all by himself. I'm sure Achtien would be delighted to know how poorly he stacks up. Fry too. Guess when they both finish top 5 with only Jager-Chenoweth-Havel in their league you will have to........"recalculate"
dude relax, he is basing his times off of meets already run, not what they can/will run. Also keep in mind the derrick just ran pretty close to chenowith and was not all that far behind Desean Turner a few weeks ago. I think it is a fair assumption that both of those runners are better then the york duo and i think derrick can (and will) run with them at state.

[daman]

dude relax, he is basing his times off of meets already run, not what they can/will run. Also keep in mind the derrick just ran pretty close to chenowith and was not all that far behind Desean Turner a few weeks ago. I think it is a fair assumption that both of those runners are better then the york duo and i think derrick can (and will) run with them at state.But Fry and Achtien were even closer to Cheno at Palatine and he didn't take that into account.

[watchout]

Oh Watchout, your little table of contents is so awful I don't know where to begin. I love how Achtien is so far behind Chris Derrick. 14:41 winning all by himself. I'm sure Achtien would be delighted to know how poorly he stacks up. Fry too. Guess when they both finish top 5 with only Jager-Chenoweth-Havel in their league you will have to........"recalculate"

Yeah, that's why I've been saying "Achtein and Fry and maybe Kuczwara will all be in the top-7 at state, right around #5" and that Derrick is an outside shot for a top-5 finish...

they are seperated by a whole 8 seconds right now (just in case you didn't look at the time differences, which it doesn't sound like you did since you think it's so far off). I really don't think that that is unreasonable.

[watchout]

But Fry and Achtien were even closer to Cheno at Palatine and he didn't take that into account.

Palatine was included in this.

[watchout]

But yet Schaumburg beats NV in spite of not running well. I think this meet actually points to the achilles of NV in large meets. Their 3-4-5 seem to be behind Palatine, Schaumburg, and Sandburg. I also believe that SCN, Wheaton North and Nap.North are also better at these spots.

We'll see this Saturday when NV and SCN hook up in conference and see where these positions place. NV will likely go 1-2 on SCN, but if SCN runs the next 4-5 places, then I think that will be a problem for NV at state.

NV may be ranked 5th in Illinois, but rankings only take into account meets run, and none of those meets will have the huge displacement factor of state.

It's not the 3-4-5 ... it's actually just the #3. Schaumburg's #4/5 runners were both within 2 seconds of Neuqua Valley's...

This is what the sheets say:
Schaumburg:
Spain 929
Roberts 940
Link 973
Rutz 982
Myszka 987

Neuqua Valley:
Derrick 915
Riddle 939
Pawola 982
Budnik 985
RUff 988

the thing that will kill Neuqua Valley, if they don't fix it, is that 2-3 gap. If that gap is under 30 seconds... Neuqua Valley should be in great shape.

[daman]

It's not the 3-4-5 ... it's actually just the #3. Schaumburg's #4/5 runners were both within 2 seconds of Neuqua Valley's...

This is what the sheets say:
Schaumburg:
Spain 929
Roberts 940
Link 973
Rutz 982
Myszka 987

Neuqua Valley:
Derrick 915
Riddle 939
Pawola 982
Budnik 985
RUff 988

the thing that will kill Neuqua Valley, if they don't fix it, is that 2-3 gap. If that gap is under 30 seconds... Neuqua Valley should be in great shape.And Burg had 4 runners before NV's 3rd, nearly 5. This meet was basically a dual meet, when they run a large meet, you can expect more guys in there splitting them further apart.

Obviously NV closing the gap on their 2 is critical, which is my point. There are possibly 7 or 8 other teams who can put their 5 in ahead of NV's #3

[daman]

Palatine was included in this.Then how do you explain Fry finishing less than a second behind Cheno at Palatine, while Derrick was 2 seconds behind at Sterling, yet Derrick is 7 places ahead of Fry? And Achtien was 2 seconds behind Cheno at Palatine, and you've got him 12 places behind Derrick.

[watchout]

And Burg had 4 runners before NV's 3rd, nearly 5. This meet was basically a dual meet, when they run a large meet, you can expect more guys in there splitting them further apart.

Obviously NV closing the gap on their 2 is critical, which is my point. There are possibly 7 or 8 other teams who can put their 5 in ahead of NV's #3
Right, I was just saying that NV's #4/5 can also hang with anyone outside of York. So the problem is really only finding a solid #3.

[watchout]

Then how do you explain Fry finishing less than a second behind Cheno at Palatine, while Derrick was 2 seconds behind at Sterling, yet Derrick is 7 places ahead of Fry? And Achtien was 2 seconds behind Cheno at Palatine, and you've got him 12 places behind Derrick.

Chenoweth had a better race at Sterling?

[daman]

Chenoweth had a better race at Sterling?Hmmmm......I'll agree Derrick had a great race, but that's about it. You can't possibly know that Fry and Achtien couldn't have been right with him if they were in the race too. Achtien for sure, he was 2 seconds behind Cheno at Palatine and his time at Peoria is 2 seconds behind Cheno as well, in spite of winning by 8 while Cheno chased Jager in his race. Why would Cheno suddenly be well ahead?

[watchout]

Hmmmm......I'll agree Derrick had a great race, but that's about it. You can't possibly know that Fry and Achtien couldn't have been right with him if they were in the race too. Achtien for sure, he was 2 seconds behind Cheno at Palatine and his time at Peoria is 2 seconds behind Cheno as well, in spite of winning by 8 while Cheno chased Jager in his race. Why would Cheno suddenly be well ahead?

Cheno wouldn't suddenly be well ahead... it's just how the races turned out. I'm sure that all 4 would be within 10 seconds (order unknown - it's all on who has the better day, they are all so close, and 5-10 seconds difference in one race is pretty much the same level) on pretty much any day they run against eachother.

[Fast4]

Yeah, that's why I've been saying "Achtein and Fry and maybe Kuczwara will all be in the top-7 at state, right around #5" and that Derrick is an outside shot for a top-5 finish...

they are seperated by a whole 8 seconds right now (just in case you didn't look at the time differences, which it doesn't sound like you did since you think it's so far off). I really don't think that that is unreasonable.

Ok so then here is the big question. If your calculations are not predictions. And if you acknowledge that Achtien in particular is ahead of or at the very least equal to Chris Derrick than WHAT GOOD ARE YOUR CALCULATIONS???

1)they dont tell us where everyone might stack up at the end
2)they dont tell us where they really truly stack up now

then what the heck are they good for??

[watchout]

Ok so then here is the big question. If your calculations are not predictions. And if you acknowledge that Achtien in particular is ahead of or at the very least equal to Chris Derrick than WHAT GOOD ARE YOUR CALCULATIONS???

1)they dont tell us where everyone might stack up at the end
2)they dont tell us where they really truly stack up now

then what the heck are they good for??

Look at how the teams compare.

It's not the individuals that I'm trying to figure out... it's the placement of the teams.

You find that out by looking at the rough outline of what the team battles will be including.

You don't have to like them, you don't have to pay attention for them, and I don't usually care if you complain about them either. I share only for the convinience of others that do want to see what comes up.