2006 NJ High School Cross Country Poll - Boys Week 7

[PFFlyer]

http://images16.fotki.com/v352/photos/1/144987/3991958/XCPollB7-vi.jpg

[fishbone]

Colts Neck over CBA is a bit drastic. CBA ran poorly (putting it mildly) at Shore Conference and still only lost by 5

[dancavallaro]

Does anyone know where to find the new Boys' Star Ledger rankings, if they indeed came out today? All I could find online was the sectional previews, which made references to the state rankings in parentheses, but I couldn't find the group-by-group rankings.

[Gator]

Colts Neck over CBA is a bit drastic. CBA ran poorly (putting it mildly) at Shore Conference and still only lost by 5


You're not slightly biased are you?:)

Running poorly is what lowers teams in rankings.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Does anyone know where to find the new Boys' Star Ledger rankings, if they indeed came out today? All I could find online was the sectional previews, which made references to the state rankings in parentheses, but I couldn't find the group-by-group rankings.

I read the rankings in the paper (hard copy) but could not find them on-line either. I always have a problem finding the boys' info on Fridays on-line.

[lambert]

Does anyone know where to find the new Boys' Star Ledger rankings, if they indeed came out today? All I could find online was the sectional previews, which made references to the state rankings in parentheses, but I couldn't find the group-by-group rankings.

Dan,

I put Princeton No. 18 in the state after the strong race it had at Mercer County. Good luck tomorrow. As you already know since you read the preview, I feel there is a very strong chance Mercer County goes 1-2-3 in cj 3.


Group 3, which is very deep this year, looks like this right now.

1-h-valley
2-ridge
3-ww north
4-kingsway
5-shawnee
6-princeton
7-seneca
8-Mo hills
9-moorestown
10-mid south

[lambert]

Pope John will run at full strength at njctc.

don bosco is holdng out several of its top runners.

cba has won 24 straight titles.

[xcobserver]

Colts Neck over CBA is a bit drastic. CBA ran poorly (putting it mildly) at Shore Conference and still only lost by 5

But the point is, Colts Neck did beat CBA. It would be hard to place CBA over Colts Neck after that outcome. As it is, the poll only has them separated by a few points, suggesting that collectively, those participating in the poll see the teams as being very close.

[fishbone]

You're not slightly biased are you?:)

Running poorly is what lowers teams in rankings.

So , if you had to bet the ranch you'd go with Colts Neck?:)

[Joe Lanzalotto]

So , if you had to bet the ranch you'd go with Colts Neck?:)

Anyone who would bet the rank on two teams that close is a real risk taker, but gun to the head, Colt's Neck.

[homeless]

So , if you had to bet the ranch you'd go with Colts Neck?:)

I'm betting he doesn't have a ranch (and I know I don't), but if you aren't going to base rankings on what has actually been run, why race at all? Shoot, let's just line up the contestents, hire an auctioneer to introduce them, wager who might be better and then rank them- better yet, let's hand out MOC medals based on who we think would win. If we think there may be a tie after 5 places we can have the 6th man for each team thumb wrestle as a tiebreaker. Forget head to head races- definately an overrated way of considering rankings. :rolleyes:

Teams racing best this time of year are racing best this time of year. No better, no worse. Good Lord

[Gator]

So , if you had to bet the ranch you'd go with Colts Neck?:)

Too close to bet the ranch. Shane Hart of Colts Neck is starting to make an impact after being out due to an injury.That could be the difference.

Both teams are very well coached. Should be interesting to see how the two teams do against each other at the MOC.

[outofshape]

It is possible for teams to improve as the season progresses, and the most recent race between CN and CBA had CN on top...can't argue with results.

[scott c]

Colts Neck over CBA is a bit drastic. CBA ran poorly (putting it mildly) at Shore Conference and still only lost by 5

Which leads to the question, why did CBA run so poorly? It's three most experienced runners are the ones that had problems. I'd say that the four newcomers, especially Ferrer have been doing their jobs quite well.

Also, if you look at the way the scoring broke down, I'd have to assume that if the teams had their times spread the same way at the MOC that Colts Neck would win by even more. There was a 1:15 second gap between the two #1 and about 25 seconds between Colts Neck's #2 and CBA's #1. There are most likely going to be a slew of runners that slot between Krewer and Ferrer at the MOC (should the teams meet there). That point differential is not going to be made up by the 5 second advantage CBA has at the #5.

[PFFlyer]

Which leads to the question, why did CBA run so poorly? It's three most experienced runners are the ones that had problems. I'd say that the four newcomers, especially Ferrer have been doing their jobs quite well.

Also, if you look at the way the scoring broke down, I'd have to assume that if the teams had their times spread the same way at the MOC that Colts Neck would win by even more. There was a 1:15 second gap between the two #1 and about 25 seconds between Colts Neck's #2 and CBA's #1. There are most likely going to be a slew of runners that slot between Krewer and Ferrer at the MOC (should the teams meet there). That point differential is not going to be made up by the 5 second advantage CBA has at the #5.

Very good points Scott. It looks like Coach Schlentz has CN "arriving on time"

[78Champ]

don bosco is holdng out several of its top runners.

Hopefully Ridgewood, Randolph, Morris Knolls, Memorial, Clifton and Vernon hold out a few runners on Saturday as well. :rolleyes:

JW

[PFFlyer]

don bosco is holdng out several of its top runners.


This is why the Ecumenicals should be folded into the respective I -IV Groups

[dwacox]

Hopefully Ridgewood, Randolph, Morris Knolls, Memorial, Clifton and Vernon hold out a few runners on Saturday as well. :rolleyes:

JW

I talked to the clifton coach and he echos your sentiments minus clifton of course:D

[Scotty]

I am wondering when CBA last suffered a season as disappointing as this one has been thus far. Off the top of my head, I cannot remember.

CBA's season does not come as a complete surprise...many familiar with the program knew this would be a reloading yr (something all programs face from time to time)...but even I am surprised by just how far the results have dipped. None of those with whom I regularly discuss NY/NJ cross country saw the Colts as being outside the Top3 in the state..let alone outside the Top7. Will there be any MOC magic??

[homeless]

this may get ugly...

[Scotty]

this may get ugly...

??How so??:confused:

FYI,,,I am a fan of the program...have been for a while.

[Gator]

I am wondering when CBA last suffered a season as disappointing as this one has been thus far. Off the top of my head, I cannot remember.

CBA's season does not come as a complete surprise...many familiar with the program knew this would be a reloading yr (something all programs face from time to time)...but even I am surprised by just how far the results have dipped. None of those with whom I regularly discuss NY/NJ cross country saw the Colts as being outside the Top3 in the state..let alone outside the Top7. Will there be any MOC magic??


Probably 2001, 8th in MOC.

[Scotty]

Probably 2001, 8th in MOC.

Thanks Gator. Did not remember the 8th in 2001.

[Gator]

This is why the Ecumenicals should be folded into the respective I -IV Groups

Then you'd have complaints that former "A" and "B" teams have an advantage due to larger drawing areas.

Don't know what the answer is, maybe seperate public and non-public championships? Have NJCTC meet (less St Benedict) and South Jersey Parochial meet serving as sectionals?

[Gator]

Thanks Gator. Did not remember the 8th in 2001.

Actually its pretty amazing when 8th at MOC is considered a bad year.

[gomer]

Does it matter some people believe that not racing in 14 days could be a bad thing. Is there even enough Parochial schools for sectionals? Which also brings me to my next question when exactly did Parochial "A" and "B" change to NON-PUBLIC? and why?

[homeless]

Does it matter some people believe that not racing in 14 days could be a bad thing. Is there even enough Parochial schools for sectionals? Which also brings me to my next question when exactly did Parochial "A" and "B" change to NON-PUBLIC? and why?

to include non-God?

[78Champ]

Does it matter some people believe that not racing in 14 days could be a bad thing.

That is the point. As a coach, won't you like the option? And should the same rules apply to all teams vying for the same title?

JW

[king99]

we go through this every year.

I do not understand as others do not as well.

have you have a Tourney Of Champs , or MOC..or All Groups whatever you call it, with a different "WAY IN" for it's participants

Only sport I know of?

That gies all the way to an All Groups participation tiltle that does this?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I say put all in the schools in their respective groups and have at it, parochial, public, whatever.

Now all you need to do is get the football coaches and ADs to agree.

[homeless]

I say put all in the schools in their respective groups and have at it, parochial, public, whatever.

Now all you need to do is get the football coaches and ADs to agree.

And as a public school coach at a school that doesn't take tuition students, I say no frickin' way :D Not a level playing field

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I rest my case. No way in the world this will ever be settled until the public schools ensure that they will never have to face a non-public ever because the fact that we pay tuition is a major athletic advantage. Unless of course Homeless is in the minority.

You can't make the non-publics like the publics because they ARE different.

Finis (for me).

[homeless]

I rest my case. No way in the world this will ever be settled until the public schools ensure that they will never have to face a non-public ever because the fact that we pay tuition is a major athletic advantage. Unless of course Homeless is in the minority.

You can't make the non-publics like the publics because they ARE different.

Finis (for me).
Wait, I'm not jumping on you, but is this sarcastic? Seriously. The paragraph isn't clear.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Wait, I'm not jumping on you, but is this sarcastic? Seriously. The paragraph isn't clear.

Ooops! I'm sorry.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[homeless]

Ooops! I'm sorry.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

LOL. WTF? I'm serious!!! :D Are you suggesting Parochials don't have at least a hypothetical advantage over teams in schools that do not take tuition students- which is most (you see that I am acknowledging that some publics do take tuition students and at times have been fed talent- a local SJ basketball program comes to mind, so as to stay away from our sport).

[GeorgieTheK]

Are you suggesting Parochials don't have at least a hypothetical advantage over teams in schools that do not take tuition students.

the question is whether that hypothetical advantage is balanced out by other hypothetical disadvantages - such as the fact that tuition costs money, which might be too much for some families, or that many are religious schools, and hence some students would not feel comfortable going there.

i don't know the answer - certainly it COULD be an advantage, but it doesn't necessarily follow that there IS an advantage.

(on a side note, i agree with JW about the lack of sectionals on the non-public side. but the most obvious solution - sticking the non-publics in with the publics, seems like the least likely to happen. from my estimation, a sectional meet" on the non-public side is completely feasable, but the result would be the same as it is now - the meets would comprise so few teams that no one would really have to run very hard, and the top teams could probably afford to sit people out. JW and I disagree on that point.)

[gomer]

How do they get an advantage? I think each has its own pro's and con's. Yes Parochial schools can get kids from all over. But you also have to realize how big of a pain it is to get them at practice, esp. when there is no busing on weekends and what not. I would say large school have somewhat of an advantage over small schools.

[GeorgieTheK]

Yes Parochial schools can get kids from all over. But you also have to realize how big of a pain it is to get them at practice, esp. when there is no busing on weekends and what not.


Of all the likely disadvantages, this is certainly not one of them. Sorry - parochial school all my life. My dad coached at a parochial school for many years. It may be a problem with a kid here or there, but no different from a public school.

[gomer]

It is for us, I guess it depends on which Parochial school then. We are in no mans land. I teach at a different school in same county and takes me at least 35 to 45 min to get to it. (But as the crow flies it would be like 15min.) And that's without traffic, forget about it if there is. No different then a public school? Are public school districts that big? (Not being sarcastic.) And I went to Parochial school my whole life as well. I hated every minute commuting, taking the 39 in Kearny sucked. Especially if you had to wait 45min to an hour for the next 39 on a Saturday.

[GeorgieTheK]

It is for us, I guess it depends on which Parochial school then. We are in no mans land. I teach at a different school in same county and takes me at least 35 to 45 min to get to it. (But as the crow flies it would be like 15min.) And that's without traffic, forget about it if there is. No different then a public school? Are public school districts that big? (Not being sarcastic.) And I went to Parochial school my whole life as well. I hated every minute commuting, taking the 39 in Kearny sucked. Especially if you had to wait 45min to an hour for the next 39 on a Saturday.


i don't doubt that long bus rides suck. and my h.s. took kids from a very large area - some that had hour and a half+ commutes each way to school.

but what you described in your post above was something different. you argued that the non-public schools are disadvanatged because there is a subset of kids who attend the school who are unwilling/unable to make the commute after school or on weekends because of the long distances.

however, for the kids whom distances are a real problem, they don't bother to attend. so most of the problem is already solved before hand. THAT may be a disadvanatge - i.e. CBA could theoretically take kids from Philadephia, but distance prohibits it. That is why Joe L and others have argued that the theoretical advantage might not be as great as it seems.

but that's not what you were arguing. you were talking about kids already IN that school. and i think that subset of kids - very few - is no different from the subset of kids in public school who are unwilling/unable to make the commute to practice/games after school or on weekends. they may do it for different reasons: i.e. some public school kids might be more likely to hold an after school job, or come from poorer families where transportation is limited. most schools don't have regular school bus service on weekends too - so that's no different from non-public schools.

in the end, the two subsets are about equal - there are always some kids, for whatever reason, who are unwilling/unable to make the commute to be on a sports team. non-publics aren't at a greater disadvantage than public schools in this respect, though the reasons might be different.

[homeless]

I agree there are pluses and minuses anywhere...but one has a side door open for anyone willing to commute/pay etc., the other doesn't. This leads to an ability to draw from elsewhere (even if it's only a 5-10 mile radius), whereas this can not be done with most publics

to me it is, and will always be, patently unfair to have publics and parochials compete at a state group meet as is done indoors.

I will grant this: if a public has a policy that allows tuition students (whether currently retaining tuition students or not), then they also should be running with non-publics (or whatever you want to call the second category)...drawing is drawing...the Lenape district has always been a bit notorious down here for having one course at each school that is not available at the others...thus allowing students to demand to head to another high school within the district...if I am wrong, I am sorry to my Burlco contingent, but this is what I have been told directly by top end athletes that attended within the district, told a number of times.

[dancavallaro]

Dan,

I put Princeton No. 18 in the state after the strong race it had at Mercer County. Good luck tomorrow. As you already know since you read the preview, I feel there is a very strong chance Mercer County goes 1-2-3 in cj 3.

Thanks.. I eventually did find a hard copy of the paper and saw the rankings, although I'm pretty sure the Group 3 rankings from the paper did not include Princeton :eek: . :p not that it matters in the end.. Anyway I had better go get some sleep to ensure that Mercer County 1-2-3 sweep ;)

[lambert]

Thanks.. I eventually did find a hard copy of the paper and saw the rankings, although I'm pretty sure the Group 3 rankings from the paper did not include Princeton :eek: . :p not that it matters in the end.. Anyway I had better go get some sleep to ensure that Mercer County 1-2-3 sweep ;)

Dan,

Good luck to you guys. I will make sure I find you after the race to chat.

[scott c]

CBA could theoretically take kids from Philadephia, but distance prohibits it.

Not true, I drive it every day.

JK - It sucks.

[gomer]

I guess people will never see eye to eye on this issue. Its just from what I have seen for the most part Public schools dominant over Parochial nation wide. If you look at York and Toga for instance its a community thing. Your Parochial school would have a real tough time pulling this off.

[homeless]

I guess people will never see eye to eye on this issue. Its just from what I have seen for the most part Public schools dominant over Parochial nation wide. If you look at York and Toga for instance its a community thing. Your Parochial school would have a real tough time pulling this off.

do York and Toga allow students to pay to go there?

[gomer]

Not sure if you can pay to go to Toga. I never really heard about that ever happening and something like that would def. get out. I would think Bob Lane would have done that as well instead of picking up and moving to the toga district. And as far as York, hard to bel. that a state that has a 25 or 28 day rule with athletes/coaches be allowed to pay to go to a different high school.

Was in a rush so sorry for the org. post if it did not make sense.

[homeless]

Not sure if you can pay to go to Toga never really heard about that happening and something like that would def. get out. (Pay as you go kinda thing.) I would think Bob Lane would have done that as well instead of picking up and moving. And York hard to bel. that a state that has a 25 or 28 day rule with athletes/coaches be allowed to pay as you go. But even that in the end would be insignficant you are talking about 1 kid of a program where they could have 70 to over a hundred kids. Do you know if they do?

What? Such sentence structure is why, even on the internet, some decent grammar is necessary.

[GeorgieTheK]

I will grant this: if a public has a policy that allows tuition students (whether currently retaining tuition students or not), then they also should be running with non-publics (or whatever you want to call the second category)...drawing is drawing...the Lenape district has always been a bit notorious down here for having one course at each school that is not available at the others...


NJ has different versions of "school choice" for public schools. Some are formal - such as the intradistrict school choice program:

http://www.nj.gov/njded/parents/title1.htm
http://www.nj.gov/njded/choice/districts/index.html

Others are set up with special programs within a district, such as the Freehold Regional School District "Learning Centers and Academies" (the reason why Bri J and Forys attend Colts Neck, even though they live in Farmingdale/Howell respectively; the reason Lindsay Gallo went to Howell though she lived in Marlboro?):

http://www.frhsd.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=98

Some are more nebulous: allowing Military families to choose among local h.s., or sharing agreements between neighboring towns. (I don't know it is still in existence, but a local h.s. district near me when I was in h.s. would allow kids from other school districts to attend, provided they paid "tuition" - i.e. the cost-per-pupil for that district.

[UltraMax24]

http://images16.fotki.com/v352/photos/1/144987/3991958/XCPollB7-vi.jpg



Ya that's a bunch of bull "Central Jersey Group 4 Boys" Jackson 53 Old Bridge 84... Why does everyone under-rank Jackson... They are a great team this year... Old Bridge had a good race and ran every top guy.. no excuses... Jackson is by far the better team...

[Voccgbcc0235]

Ya that's a bunch of bull "Central Jersey Group 4 Boys" Jackson 53 Old Bridge 84... Why does everyone under-rank Jackson... They are a great team this year... Old Bridge had a good race and ran every top guy.. no excuses... Jackson is by far the better team...

Sectionals is all about qualifying...these polls are done on a week to week basis and Old Bridge may have had a better week. Let Jackson prove themselves later on rather then celebrate a Sectional Title. It isn't these polls that determine the state champions after all.

[homeless]

Ya that's a bunch of bull "Central Jersey Group 4 Boys" Jackson 53 Old Bridge 84... Why does everyone under-rank Jackson... They are a great team this year... Old Bridge had a good race and ran every top guy.. no excuses... Jackson is by far the better team...

because you support them...it's purely vindictive

[xcobserver]

Old Bridge had a good race and ran every top guy..

I heard yesterday that both teams were planning to hold guys out. Is that true or is UltraMax's statement correct?

[/QUOTE] Jackson is by far the better team... [/QUOTE]

I'm a big Jackson fan, but think OB deserves alot more respect than that. Things could change next week.

[78Champ]

Ya that's a bunch of bull "Central Jersey Group 4 Boys" Jackson 53 Old Bridge 84... Why does everyone under-rank Jackson... They are a great team this year... Old Bridge had a good race and ran every top guy.. no excuses... Jackson is by far the better team...

You forgot to include "today".

JW

[Voccgbcc0235]

From what I heard neither team looked as though they held out any key runners...but we'll just have to wait for the results I guess.

[Voccgbcc0235]

27 Travis Mahoney JR Old Bridge 5:32.0 17:11.29 27

Only change in Old Bridge line-up from the Shore Coaches Invitational...and a very impressive performance compared to that race.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I was there today and it sure looked like Old Bridge was going all out, but what do I know? Sectionals ARE about moving on, but no one out there said "lets just run for second or third" to try to move on.

About Jackson (I have them tied for first with DB) - when DO they get some respect? I think they've earned it already. I mean, if they win next week (won't be easy, Group 4 schools from other sections are looking good, i.e. Ridgewood) is someone going to say "yeah, but let's see them win MOC"?

[GeorgieTheK]

sorry for the late reply scotty, but someone answered that CBA's last time finishing out of the top 3 was indeed in 2001, when they finished 8th. that was also the last time the lost the shore conference (finishing 3rd to TRN and Red Bank Reg, also lost the county meet to RBR.)

last time they didn't qualify for MOC was in 1981, the last year they didn't win the the NJCTC meet. (they finished 6th at Par. A, losing to Delbarton, SJV, Bergen Catholic, Paul VI, RBC.)

[AK911Carrera]

Did Doug Smith run yesterday?

-AK

[78Champ]

Wow.

After all of gomer's talk about not necessarily wanting the time off, at NJCTC's he only ran 2 of his top 7 from BMOC.

JW

[gomer]

Nice catch.

[PFFlyer]

Did Doug Smith run yesterday?

-AK

He may have run, but to the best of my knowledge, he did not race and he did not race on saturday either :D

[homeless]

He may have run, but to the best of my knowledge, he did not race and he did not race on saturday either :D

jogged?

[AK911Carrera]

He may have run, but to the best of my knowledge, he did not race and he did not race on saturday either :D

:rolleyes:

-AK

[Eddie O'Donnell]

Wow.

After all of gomer's talk about not necessarily wanting the time off, at NJCTC's he only ran 2 of his top 7 from BMOC.

JW

Who is gomer? What team are you talking about?

[homeless]

Who is gomer? What team are you talking about?

Please stop hiding behind a screen name

[gomer]

Downey, AHA. Was not exactly hiding just look at profile then click on website. (Name of website also a give away. I am guessing that's how 78champ found out.)