The difference between Webb and Mottram/Lagat. . .

[Zat0pek]

. . . is composure and confidence. This quote from Webb in the Washington Post following Millrose says it all:

Webb declined to attend the post-meet news conference, but spoke one-on-one after collecting his thoughts.

"The last few weeks I've been running really well," said Webb, looking drained and disheartened. "Despite today I know that I'm fit. I had a little bit of a mental breakdown today; not as much a physical one. It's such a big event, and it's so hyped up that I sometimes get carried away a little bit and let my emotions get the best of me and kind of get too excited. And then when things didn't go my way, I just made a bad situation worse.

"I'm not a happy camper right now. I didn't run very well here two years ago, and I had a great year after that. I still wanted to do better than I did today."


It is a huge problem for him if he can't keep his emotions in check before an event like Millrose. Millrose, as big as it is, isn't even a blip on the radar compared to the WCs, Olys, or even top-flight European meets like Zurich, Olso, Rieti, et al.

I'm beginning to think that Webb's lack of tactical racing skills and ridiculous strategies (e.g, the huge burst in the WCs in '05) are really a lack of composure and confidence on Webb's part. He simply can't handle it if he can't break someone by shortly after halfway in a race, unless he's running purely for time.

If Webb can't get this fixed - FAST - it won't matter how fit he is during the WCs and Olys the next three years. He didn't run so poorly at Millrose because of a lack of fitness. He ran poorly due to a lack of composure. Webb isn't a kid anymore. He has too much international experience for this to still be an issue.

I hope he learned from this. This is fixable, but they'd better get on it or he'll squander away three very key international championship years in his prime.

[Wizard]

qfe

[outwork->outrun]

good post. i told my coach about that quote and he was in disbelief. he said basically what you said - "are you kidding? he's an elite runner now. he's not a high school athlete anymore. i'm shocked that he'd have a problem like that at this stage in his career."

webb seems to have more of a sprinter's pre-race attitude than a distance runner's. i saw him at new balance and - even there - he started jumping up and down and going crazy when they called his name. it didn't really suggest any sort of composure or calmness. didn't see him at boston, but millrose was the same story. they called each runner's name and everyone did a smooth, easy stride or jog to the starting line. except webb - he sprinted around the track full speed and overran the line by about 30m. he needs to relax before he runs! composure and patience are key in distance running.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

. . . is composure and confidence.
It is a huge problem for him if he can't keep his emotions in check before an event like Millrose. Millrose, as big as it is, isn't even a blip on the radar compared to the WCs, Olys, or even top-flight European meets like Zurich, Olso, Rieti, et al.

If Webb can't get this fixed - FAST - it won't matter how fit he is during the WCs and Olys the next three years. He didn't run so poorly at Millrose because of a lack of fitness. He ran poorly due to a lack of composure. Webb isn't a kid anymore. He has too much international experience for this to still be an issue.

I hope he learned from this. This is fixable, but they'd better get on it or he'll squander away three very key international championship years in his prime.

While Millrose lacks the importance of a major championship or Grand Prix meet it is much more of a circus atmosphere, with the introductions, spotlights, spectators basically on top of the track, etc. There's a big difference in being overwhelmed by the gravity of the race and the competition and being overwhelmed by the prize fight atmosphere they try to foster at Millrose.


good post. i told my coach about that quote and he was in disbelief. he said basically what you said - "are you kidding? he's an elite runner now. he's not a high school athlete anymore. i'm shocked that he'd have a problem like that at this stage in his career."


Keep in mind that Webb is barely 24 years old. He's a professional athlete, yes, but a switch doesn't flip when you get that first paycheck and you become suddenly immune to pressure and stressful situations that you have faced rarely, if ever.

Let's take a look at some "big" situations that Webb has encountered:
2001 Prefontaine - he was in high school, had already broken four, very little pressure.
2004 Olympic Trials
2004 European season
2004 Olympics
2005 European season
2005 World Outdoor

Remember that Webb only ran one NCAA Championship meet on the track (one argument against going pro early). He's still learning the ropes, it's a process and it takes time. If you truly want to see Webb develop and be great you'll understand this and not throw him under the bus every time he doesn't run well.

Mottram, in contrast, is only a bit older at 26 but has loads more experience. Here are some of Mottram's pressure situations, and I'm probably leaving a few out:

1999 World Cross
1999 European season
2000 European season
2000 Olympics (in Australia)
2001 World Indoor
2001 World Cross
2001 European season
2001 World Outdoor
2002 World Cross
2002 Commonwealth Games
2002 European season
2002 World Cup
2003 European season
2004 World Indoor
2004 World Cross
2004 European season
2004 Olympics
2005 World Cross
2005 European season
2005 World Outdoor
2006 Commonwealth Games (in his hometown)
2006 World Cross
2006 European season
2006 World Cup

Read a few articles, or watch "The Big Mazungo" and you'll see that Mottram still has trouble coping with the pressure. He still needs reassurance from Bideau that he is doing the right thing and he is ready.

Lagat's resume is similar to Mottram's, except longer.

The difference between Webb and Mottram and Lagat is simple - experience. Yeah, right now Webb may lack maturity and composure in pressure situations compared to Mottram and Lagat but the only remedy for that is time. This surge (don't call it an escalation) in American distance running and the desperate search for "the saviour of American distance running" has caused fans (most of whom have a certainty of opinion that is unimpeded by lack of knowledge, experience, or perspective) to absolutely lose any shred of patience. As much as he would like to (and I assure you Webb wants to run well infinitely more than even the peanut-gallery commentators want him to) speed up time and become a salty 27 year-old veteran tomorrow, it's not going to happen immediately and it's futile to worry about it and expend energy agonising over it. My advice to all who are supporters of Alan Webb and up-and-coming distance runners the world over: make the same realisation, stop attacking athletes for things on which they are working desperately hard and the only thing seperating them from success is the inevitable passage of time.

[mzungu]

he says he lost his composure, but how exactly would that make you start running slower and fade away after 800m? it was fitness.

[KevinM]

he says he lost his composure, but how exactly would that make you start running slower and fade away after 800m? it was fitness.


You've never lost your edge in a race and suddenly found yourself running in quicksand? Lose your focus/composure/confidence (whatever you want to call it), and it's easy to start running far slower than you're capable.

[maniacmiler]

when you start feeling bad for yourself and mentally are just not happy how a race is going you WILL start to suck (run slow). i have no problem believing that. and if he comes back and runs 352 this weekend this thread will die.

so lets all relax and see every runner encounters a race where things just dont go their way. Mottram lost the Commenwealth games after saying he would win....thats a bit of a let down. and we'll see how he does at worlds this year.

don't get me wrong i like Mottram a lot.....and i like webb just as much. but you guys are taking a quote a little far.

[Requiem]

he says he lost his composure, but how exactly would that make you start running slower and fade away after 800m? it was fitness.

are you serious?

[outwork->outrun]

in response to Tiocfaidh Ar La's post:

i wasn't in any way throwing webb under the bus or jumping ship after a bad race. obviously he doesn't have the same type of experience as mottram or lagat, but that doesn't mean he can't keep himself composed before races. having the experience to carry out a perfect race and having the experience to keep composed in a pressure situation are totally different. he has plenty of experience to handle a high-pressure race. by senior year of high school, he had enough experience with pressure to match that of most post-collegiate american athletes. you can't make that excuse for him now that he's 24.

with that said, i agree that - with more experience - he'll handle big races better and perform better.

[outwork->outrun]

"2001 Prefontaine - he was in high school, had already broken four, very little pressure."


i'm not so sure that could be considered "very little pressure". racing el g - the WR holder! - as a high school senior is a pretty big deal.


EDIT: and i dont think anyone's saying it's easy to keep yourself composed in such big situations. but if he wants to be the best - and it's clear that he does - he has to be able to do that. he won't be the best until he can keep his emotions in check. it's really that simple.

[ElHollingsworth]

The difference between Webb and Mottram/Lagat. . .

uhhh...pr's, accomplishments, talent, and straight ballerness.

[jacksparrow34313]

uhhh...pr's, accomplishments, talent, and straight ballerness.
Thanks for contributing to this thread.


Edit: But sarcasm aside, if you take a look at Mottram and Webb's mile/1500 PRs, you will realize you are wrong. Don't get mad at me, I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just sayin'

[cnick]

This might be the most intelligent thread on Dyestat ever.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

"2001 Prefontaine - he was in high school, had already broken four, very little pressure."


i'm not so sure that could be considered "very little pressure". racing el g - the WR holder! - as a high school senior is a pretty big deal.


EDIT: and i dont think anyone's saying it's easy to keep yourself composed in such big situations. but if he wants to be the best - and it's clear that he does - he has to be able to do that. he won't be the best until he can keep his emotions in check. it's really that simple.

A. No one was expecting him to beat El Guerrouj. Exciting yes, pressure no.
B. I couldn't agree more with the statement that "Webb needs to maintain his composure in pressure situations." This is the case for every athlete. However, my contention is that you and Zatopek are disparaging Webb for going through the unavoidable steps from promising youngster to potential medallist. You treat it as some sort of character flaw.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

in response to Tiocfaidh Ar La's post:
having the experience to carry out a perfect race and having the experience to keep composed in a pressure situation are totally different. he has plenty of experience to handle a high-pressure race. by senior year of high school, he had enough experience with pressure to match that of most post-collegiate american athletes. you can't make that excuse for him now that he's 24.


This is absolutely wrong. Having the composure to disregard the enormity of the situation and carry out your plan is one concept. You can't run a "perfect" race if you are overwhelmed before the gun goes.

Webb had his share of big races by the time he was done with HS, no doubt. But matching up with most post-collegiate American athletes and matching up with a World Championships medalist and a 2x Olympic medalist are two totally different things.

[Zat0pek]

However, my contention is that you and Zatopek are disparaging Webb for going through the unavoidable steps from promising youngster to potential medallist. You treat it as some sort of character flaw.

Then you need to read more carefully.

I wasn't disparaging him at all, merely stating the obvious. While I agree that Webb is still gaining experience, he is certainly experienced enough that Millrose should not have triggered this reaction.

I can only assume (based on your join date) that you must be somewhat new to the boards and unfamiliar with my posts about Webb in the last few years.

[>>-XC-Runner->]

When Webb was in high school he was racing against the clock, not trying to win. At Millrose, he went out hard expecting to lead from start to finish while Mottram and Lagat stayed calm and raced strategically.
Webb racing at Millrose got him too hyped up and as a result he ran poorly.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

Then you need to read more carefully.

I wasn't disparaging him at all, merely stating the obvious. While I agree that Webb is still gaining experience, he is certainly experienced enough that Millrose should not have triggered this reaction.

I can only assume (based on your join date) that you must be somewhat new to the boards and unfamiliar with my posts about Webb in the last few years.

I'm familiar with you and your views.

Your assumptions re: Webb reveal the same brand of blissfully uninformed conclusions you have drawn in the past regarding Alan Culpepper and his racing schedule (or lack thereof, in your view).

I would wager that you know nothing about Alan Webb beyond what has been exposed to you in the mass media. This is but a fraction of the story, certainly not enough to inform you to the extent that you can make authoritative statements to the effect that Webb "should" be able to handle the atmosphere at Millrose. You can't say where Webb is in his development and what he "should" be able to handle. The results from Friday night reveal as much, if Webb could've handled it he would've. Obviously he's not there yet. He will be in the future. Continuing to harp on it won't speed up the process.

[MaroonCat1600]

When Webb was in high school he was racing against the clock, not trying to win. At Millrose, he went out hard expecting to lead from start to finish while Mottram and Lagat stayed calm and raced strategically.
Webb racing at Millrose got him too hyped up and as a result he ran poorly.

If you weren't meegan I would rip this to shreads

[Zat0pek]

I'm familiar with you and your views.

Your assumptions re: Webb reveal the same brand of blissfully uninformed conclusions you have drawn in the past regarding Alan Culpepper and his racing schedule (or lack thereof, in your view).

LOL. EVERYBODY seems to know my views on Culpepper's sparse racing schedule. Rest assured I'm not the only one that holds them, I was just more outspoken about airing them.

And if you are familiar with me, then you know I have been one of Webb's (and, in fact, virtually all U.S. runners) most ardent supporters over the years. You are also aware of all the kudos I've given Culpepper for always bringing his "A" game on the rare occassions he does race, his impeccable record in USATF championships, and for his timing and decision to move to the marathon. You are aware that I've not repeated those views after he actually went to Europe for some races in recent years and moved to the marathon. You are aware that I made it a point to include him on the list of "A" teamers running in Boulder this weekend in the thread I started about the World Cross trials. You are aware of how I defended Webb after his bad year after leaving Michigan (and this past summer), how I sketched out and predicted (with great accuracy) the progress he would make in the next several of years after leaving Michigan and advised everyone to be patient given all the changes he had been through. You are aware that I said much the same things about Ryan Hall a few years ago when all the trolls wanted to write him off during his college years.

I'm sure you're aware of all those things. . . aren't you?

BTW. . .interesting choice for a screen name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiocfaidh_%C3%A1r_l%C3%A1. Are you a member of the IRA or just an admirer of theirs?

[king99]

I have watched this thread for a couple of days and was going to say nothing, BUT.

What happened at Millrose was a little more than the obvious.

Alan Webb is now a highly paid in this sport, professional,what we saw was not a performance commensurate with that.

Reasons are being given. do not wash with me.

Running or jogging in the last half in 2:10 off any pace is just plain, not right, Webb was paid pretty good appearance monies for that night, trust me, and when that is the situation you should give your best effort, going out a little fast and getting beaten in 3:57/58? No problems from me.

many , may people came to specifically see him run, folks can say what they want, BUT that is TRUE.

Going out in 1:55 and last half in 2:09+??????

Some may say, "so what's the diff" if not in it, shut it down..

No way, not at this point. Sorry.

I am a HUGE Alan Webb fan, ask anyone, but there needs to be balance in commenting, like Zat posted.

[KevinM]

I couldn't agree more, King (and Zat).

Maybe it's the ESPN generation's affect on things, but fair, objective commenting on an athlete's lack of performance is not "disrespecting" or "hating on" an athlete. No one here is falling to the level of attacking Webb as a human being. Like it or not, track and field is a sport, and sport is entertainment. If Webb (or any high-profile athlete) is going to reap the benefits (re: $$$, celebrity, ego-stroking) of the high points, then certainly fair analysis of the low points is warranted.

[yifter]

Zat- agreed about webb, i have felt and said this for a long time, CL is the american hope in WC and OG 1500m (besides lagat)...i also agree that clearly michigan was not the right place for him, but to quote lagat (i'm probably not quite on but whatever): "he can learn to win in college in 3:37-3:38, he will learn the right tactics" clearly willis and brannen have largely learned how to race more effectively in the 3:38 range than webb has despite the fact that they are giving up some serious ground to him when it comes to PRs (except NW's 1500m)

Also as the huge Culp fan, he has decided to skip WXC most likely ;)

[Zat0pek]

Also as the huge Culp fan, he has decided to skip WXC most likely ;)

DOH! :rolleyes:

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

Webb isn't a kid anymore. He has too much international experience for this to still be an issue.

I hope he learned from this. This is fixable, but they'd better get on it or he'll squander away three very key international championship years in his prime.


You are aware of how I defended Webb after his bad year after leaving Michigan (and this past summer), how I sketched out and predicted (with great accuracy) the progress he would make in the next several of years after leaving Michigan and advised everyone to be patient given all the changes he had been through. You are aware that I said much the same things about Ryan Hall a few years ago when all the trolls wanted to write him off during his college years.


You have supported American athletes in the past. Kudos.
You have urged patience toward Webb's development in the past. Kudos. My opinion is that you should exercise the same patience now and not assume that due to supporting someone in the past or following their career for a long time you are in a position to judge what they are and are not ready for. The results and the man in question speak for themselves - Webb was overwhelmed by the situation at Millrose (by his own admission) and ran poorly (by any standard). Regardless of whether or not you deem him to be ready for such an event and such a situation, the fact remains that he obviously wasn't.

I read your comments and they come off like you are taking Webb to task for something, pointing out things he and Raczko are oblivious to. Your comments in the initial post on this thread are conclusions that you've jumped to without looking at the information (or perhaps inadequately evaluating the information) and assumptions that you understand Webb's situation and can definitively say what he "should" be able to handle.

Webb's been good for a long time but hasn't had a lot of international experience. People will count things differently, but by my math Webb's been in the middle of roughly half a dozen big time global situations. Guys like Mottram have been in four times that many and are still working on getting it down.

[Tiocfaidh Ar La]

I couldn't agree more, King (and Zat).

Maybe it's the ESPN generation's affect on things, but fair, objective commenting on an athlete's lack of performance is not "disrespecting" or "hating on" an athlete. No one here is falling to the level of attacking Webb as a human being. Like it or not, track and field is a sport, and sport is entertainment. If Webb (or any high-profile athlete) is going to reap the benefits (re: $$$, celebrity, ego-stroking) of the high points, then certainly fair analysis of the low points is warranted.

But one, when making fair and objective comments, should realise that they have precious little insight into what the actual situation is with the athlete in question. They haven't been at the track for the sessions, they haven't seen the training, they haven't been in the hotel rooms before and after races. They have insufficient data and should not feel they have license to draw conclusions based on guesses and assumptions.

[Wrigs77]

But one, when making fair and objective comments, should realise that they have precious little insight into what the actual situation is with the athlete in question. They haven't been at the track for the sessions, they haven't seen the training, they haven't been in the hotel rooms before and after races. They have insufficient data and should not feel they have license to draw conclusions based on guesses and assumptions.
Whether or not this is true, remember that this is merely an internet message board. People are certainly free to discuss what they feel is going on with Webb's running. I am sure you realize that. I am not sure how you are drawing the conclusion that Zat0pek is being unfair or un-informed with his thoughts on Webb's poor race at Milrose.

[king99]

TIO whatever? I could never remember that whole thing.

here is how it goes for me, does NOT have to be for you at all.

ONLY in this sport to people consistently make excuses for guys really really under performing

Football? Rex Grossman SUCKED, I rarely say that but he single handedly played like dog ****

Hoops? when John Starks shot the Knicks out of an NBA title I said so then.


Yet for every Webb poor performance there is always a reason given.

Webb a 3:48 guy has NEVER run under 4:00 in two appearnaces.

Marcus O' Sullivan ran under 4:00.00 ELEVEN times on that donkey track.

You think he felt 100% all 11 times?

There is a bad day, and there is a not trying day, anyone who saw this, has to say this was mailed in after not being able to win.

It's like okay all of a sudden, if you are NOT the winner to just walk it in.

Man, no one like that could have ever even played Little league for me, and those were 10-12 year olds:D

I maybe had two of those types in 6 years?

It's like man, one 5 second period out of your comfort zone, and then it becomes "shut it down"?? and that's okay with over half of the folks out there, that is what is hysterical to me.

[Scotty]

Webb should have done a better job over the last 440..no doubt. If I were AW, I would be slightly emabarrassed by the showing

However, I am not so sure it is that important. If Webb can live with it, so can I.

[king99]

By the way, This is an Internet board and more ridiculous opnions are heard all the time, believe I am not the only NITWIT out there that saw , or sees it this way.

I am a big Webb supporter, that is not some qualifier, it is the truth, but when you see something? call it like it is, not explain it away 50 ways to Sunday.

[Scotty]

By the way, This is an Internet board and more ridiculous opnions are heard all the time...


Very true.

[king99]

That was funny, indeed. hahahahaha

[Zat0pek]

Bumping my own thread because my original post pretty well sums up my thoughts about recent events with this caveat: I do think Webb has fitness/health issues lingering from whatever happened this spring. But I also think it is likely that those issues (he's described them as essentially overtraining) also stem from the same root cause as covered in my original post.

[jacksparrow34313]

Bumping my own thread because my original post pretty well sums up my thoughts about recent events with this caveat: I do think Webb has fitness/health issues lingering from whatever happened this spring. But I also think it is likely that those issues (he's described them as essentially overtraining) also stem from the same root cause as covered in my original post.
I think you're right, and I would guess that in this situation, the lack of composure and confidence came as a result of whatever training issues there may have been.


JS

[NSHSDad]

Give Tio some credit - he was posting on the New England boards about "Ireland's historical struggles" a year ago. At least he's keeping it to track and field these days.

Anyway, if you're a professional, when you get get onto that line, you have to be ready to do business. I hope AW can get there.

[BROWN POTATO]

Mottram can grow a mullet. Webb cannot.

[jaygray]

I've said it before, but I think AW needs to do what Ritz and Hall have done, which is to get married.

[conabud]

I've said it before, but I think AW needs to do what Ritz and Hall have done, which is to get married.

i agree it could help things for him, but marriage isn't something he can just make happen overnight. maybe he HAS been trying to find someone and just hasn't had any luck.

what is he entered in at Rome?...i'm assuming another 1500, or do they run a full mile?

edit: forget it, he's not entered in Rome....no american distance runners are.

[Zat0pek]

Webb doesn't seem to have an explanation. Thought the Marty Liquori e-mail was interesting. I agree with his point about the talent still being there and having time, but WRs at 800 and 5,000....

I think it's pretty clear that something isn't right with him physically this year.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/track/2008-07-10-webb-defeat_N.htm


Four days after his fifth-place finish in the 1,500 meters at the U.S. Olympic trials in Eugene, Ore., the disappointment in Alan Webb's voice was obvious. Devastated at not making the Olympic team for next month's Beijing Games, Webb hasn't felt motivated to work out though he's planning to compete in Europe.

"I just feel a little off," Webb said by phone Thursday after returning to his home in Reston, Va. "I'm sort of at a loss for explaining myself now."

Webb, 25, was forced to improvise a year after a banner season that included a U.S. record in the mile (3 minutes, 46.91 seconds), the year's best time in the 1,500 (3:30.54) and the No. 2 time in the 800 (1:43.84).

This year Webb may have trained too hard in the winter, when he skipped the indoor season to focus on workouts. "Maybe I'd race a bit indoors. That might be one thing I'd change," said Webb, coached since high school by Scott Raczko. "At least it would give me a measuring stick of what was going on. It was maybe a little unwise to go that long without racing and think that I could suddenly turn it on like a light switch."

After two disappointing 5K road races in the spring, Webb withdrew from track races, seeking rejuvenation. He had two unimpressive races before the trials, a 3:55.47 mile and 1:47.41 800.


Unlike in 2004 when he won the trials going away, he was playing catch-up before the big meet and facing the best group of U.S. milers since he hit the national scene with a prep record 3:53.43 mile in 2001.

"If I would have gone into the meet with more races, three or four under my belt, it's a different story," he said. "I thought I'd be OK. I did the best I could with the scenario I was given.

"It wasn't enough. Not with the way the 1,500 is now. It's too competitive in the U.S. now."

Bernard Lagat, the ex-Kenyan who won the 1,500 and 5,000 at the 2007 world championships, leads the U.S. team that includes 2008 NCAA champion Leonel Manzano from the University of Texas and Lopez Lomong, who was last year's NCAA champ at Northern Arizona.

In a slow, tactical race that Lagat won in 3:40.37, Webb (3:42.62) was fifth at the bell.

"With 200 I thought I might be good to go," he said. "Clearly my 800 speed is behind schedule. That's what you need in a (slow) race like that. Everybody's kicking, everybody's equal. You have to have position. I didn't have the right position."

After Sunday's race, ex-mile great Marty Liquori e-mailed Webb, telling him he missed Olympic teams in 1972 and '76 with injuries after being ranked No. 1 the year before.

"He's got five years (of improving)," said Liquori, a television commentator. "He could set the world record in the 800. He could set it at 5,000. He's still got talent."

Webb doesn't have what he wants now — a trip to Beijing.

[Biscuit_AQ]

I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to bear the expectations of the (childish, asinine, judgmental) US running community like Webb does. I mean, people here and elsewhere called his last season a failure! The mind boggles.

I agree with the spirit of the marriage comment, in that I hope he has some balance in his life. If I may quote Any Given Sunday (yeah, I'm going there),

"When a man looks back on his life, he should be proud of all of it, not just the time he spent in a uniform."

I hope Webb has people he loves to help him through this, and hope he kicks ass again soon so all the internet experts can scramble to explain how they knew all along.

[JMegs13]

I've said it before, but I think AW needs to do what Ritz and Hall have done, which is to get married.
Or just grow up. I mean the guy lives like a frat boy and still has his high school coach coach him. That's fine if he wants to be a run of the mill American miler, but if he really wants Olympic or WC medals, he needs to get a bit more sophisticated with his entire approach.