Sen. Durbin (D-IL): US troops are Nazis

[jersey_guy]

Between Dean, Reid, Kerry, and Durbin, the competition for the biggest America-hating psycho in the Democratic Party is heaitng up:

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have happened by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings."

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44804

Because as we all know the Nazis turned the AC off at Auschwitz at times. Good luck in 2008, *******.

[Jwaksman]

Wow, that's awesome that you saved that quote! I didn't remember the exact words after the dyestat re-birth so didn't want to misquote him :D

[New York XC]

I don't have much probably with Durbin saying that. Was it hyperbole and insensitive? Yes, definetly. But what the man was trying to do was to make an outrageous statement that he knew would attract a lot of media attention in an attempt to bring attention to an issue he feels needs to be taken care of. He has the right to say that and there was a small amount of truth in it; there are some not so nice things going on there. If you dont' like it, then don't vote for him next election.

[Jwaksman]

It's just hyperbole. Both Republicans and Democrats have bad habits of calling everyone that they disagree with a Nazi and/or a Stalinist. It's catering to voters like mzungu, who really do believe that the US is worse than Stalinist Russia.

[jersey_guy]

"Alright, Bush is better than Hitler, let's give him a cookie. But he's done a better job exterminating people than the Nazis ever could've imagined."

Incorrect again. The quote was about the extermination of Native Americans by white settlers, which was true.

[Jwaksman]

Incorrect again. The quote was about the extermination of Native Americans by white settlers, which was true.



No, white people did not torture and murder nearly 8 million Native Americans (with the opening of the Soviet records, the number of Jewish dead during the holocaust is steadily rising, with many believing it's upwards of 8 million). Most Native Americans that died actually succombed to natural European diseases for which they had no immunity to. To compare what Europeans did in the 1500's and 1600's to what Hitler did is more offensive than what Durbin said.

[jersey_guy]

But what the man was trying to do was to make an outrageous statement that he knew would attract a lot of media attention in an attempt to bring attention to an issue he feels needs to be taken care of.


Don't worry, it will be brought to the public attention in Illinois before the next election. Thousands of military families will be delighted to know that their sons and daughters, many of them killed or wounded while defending their freedom, are little Nazis.


He has the right to say that and there was a small amount of truth in it; there are some not so nice things going on there.

He, nor anybody else, does not have the right to give aid and comfort to the enemy during wartime. Al Jazeera picked up Durbin's remarks with delight. He should have been hauled off the Senate floor the moment he opened his mouth about it because it's borderline treason.

[jersey_guy]

No, white people did not torture and murder nearly 8 million Native Americans (with the opening of the Soviet records, the number of Jewish dead during the holocaust is steadily rising, with many believing it's upwards of 8 million). Most Native Americans that died actually succombed to natural European diseases for which they had no immunity to. To compare what Europeans did in the 1500's and 1600's to what Hitler did is more offensive than what Durbin said.

Lets see.

Number of terrorists killed in Gunatanamo - 0
Number of Jews killed by Nazis - 8+ million
Number of Native Americans killed by whites - 30-40 million

If anything, that comparison would be offensive to Native Americans. The method of killing is irrelevant, only the end result matters.

[minibee]

Lets see.

Number of terrorists killed in Gunatanamo - 0
Number of Jews killed by Nazis - 8+ million
Number of Native Americans killed by whites - 30-40 million

If anything, that comparison would be offensive to Native Americans. The method of killing is irrelevant, only the end result matters.

Not really. For the most part, we didn't kill Native Americans in genocide. That, probably more than the physical act of murder, is what the horror of holocaust was about.

And to bring up a completely different subject: It's amazing no one pays attention to the Rwanda Massacre or Darfur. Those things are the most recent. Our ignorance to that part of the world is partly to blame.

[Jwaksman]

Someone who dies because they caught the common cold from a Spaniard is not equivalent to a person who dies in a Nazi experiment camp where they were subjected to extremely high pressure to see how much air pressure a human can stand before dying. Not all deaths are equal.


I'm sorry, if you really think that Durbin is going to lose votes cause of this then you had better keep your mouth shut about the Holocaust. Besides the fact that a Democrat has to commit a felony to lose a statewide election in Illinois - the state with the weakest state GOP party in the nation, you are going to offend way more people with your brush-under-the-rug of the Holocaust than Durbin will.


Such as myself.

[Biscuit_AQ]

Agreed. All deaths are certainly not equal, and the idea that they are is representative of the cloudy thinking that dominates politics.

[mzungu]

torture is a common denominator for all totalitarian regimes.

[KenA55]

No, white people did not torture and murder nearly 8 million Native Americans (with the opening of the Soviet records, the number of Jewish dead during the holocaust is steadily rising, with many believing it's upwards of 8 million). Most Native Americans that died actually succombed to natural European diseases for which they had no immunity to. To compare what Europeans did in the 1500's and 1600's to what Hitler did is more offensive than what Durbin said.

Haha, true that we lacked the technology to match 20th century German Engineering. But the majority of the disease epidemics and starvation did occur through forced herding into reservations where any other outcome was out of the question. Along with gov't bounties on the buffalo intended to weaken the plains indian into compliancy.

[jersey_guy]

Well today Dustbin finally cried on the national TV and apologized for his remarks, saying that perhaps US troops are not Nazis after all.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/21/national/w150253D99.DTL

And Howard Dean apologized for some in the Democratic Party blaiming 9/11 on Israel.

With opposition like that, it's no wonder that Republicans keep getting reelected with 40% approval ratings.

[TrackDaddy]

No, white people did not torture and murder nearly 8 million Native Americans (with the opening of the Soviet records, the number of Jewish dead during the holocaust is steadily rising, with many believing it's upwards of 8 million). Most Native Americans that died actually succombed to natural European diseases for which they had no immunity to. To compare what Europeans did in the 1500's and 1600's to what Hitler did is more offensive than what Durbin said.WHAT?!?!?!?

LOL...you're a trip, man.

--->Natural european diseases of which some were INTENTIONALLY spread.

No way the Jewish holocaust (that DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES AND WASN'T CONDUCTED BY AMERICANS) is anywhere close to the GENOCIDE carried out against NATIVE AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Not even close.

Consider...

Various sources estimate native population in North and South America at 90 to 100 million prior to the arrival of Europeans.

In the 1500's, the American Indian population in North America has been estimated at approximately 12 million, but by the early 1900's, the population had been reduced to roughly 474,000!!!!! :eek:

We can talk about the mass graves and unthinkable brutality if you like.

From a numerical perspective, Hitler's FOREIGN LAND atrocities...don't even compare.

Even the Declaration of Independence refers to Indians as mere savages so the genocide being carried out and still yet to come was all but officlailly "Declared."

Drop the "THE" Holocaust stuff.

History has MANY OF THEM (including slavery)...some of which ACTUALLY HAPPENED HERE and INVOLVED AMERICANS.

The Jewish ordeal wasn't one of them but seems to receive the most sympathy.

Hmm...I wonder why. :rolleyes:

Makes no sense whatsoever.

[MoMo]

Having al-Jazeera report Durbin's comment probably did us MUCH
more good in the Arab/Muslim world than for Arabs/Muslims to read
about mistreatment of Gitmo prisoners or of the Koran.

It showed them that not all Americans support torture and Koran abuse.

Why is that a bad message?

[Zat0pek]

Having al-Jazeera report Durbin's comment probably did us MUCH
more good in the Arab/Muslim world than for Arabs/Muslims to read
about mistreatment of Gitmo prisoners or of the Koran.

It showed them that not all Americans support torture and Koran abuse.

Why is that a bad message?

I for one wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support abuse of the Koran as an interrogation technique if there is any chance that it will lead to obtaining useful information. Who in their right mind WOULDN'T support that? But the more important question is, who in their right mind would REPORT that publicly?

I have a very liberal colleague who was going off about this one day. I asked him this hypothetical: He is an Army officer, say a captain, that has a captured Muslim Iraqi insurgent in his possession. He is in charge of the interrogation and there is reason to believe that this individual possesses information about insurgant forces and weapons that, if obtained, could save the lives of the men under his command and if not obtained, could result in the deaths of one or more of the men under his command. A possible interrogation technique is the threat of or actually urinating on a copy of the Koran.

Question: Would he authorize it, and thereby increase the chances of saving his troops lives or would he not out of cultural sensitivity?

Answer: He would not authorize it, because essentially he believes that cultural sensitivity is paramount to his troops lives.

I consider that insanity bordering on evil to expose his troops to potential increased loss of life rather than desecrate a sacred book, an INANIMATE object.

FYI, Durbin's family lived across the street from my mother-in-law's family growing up. To say they didn't think highly of him growing up would be a profound understatement.

[MoMo]

Zat, your line of argument continually neglects the fact that there
is a price to pay -- at some point, down the line -- when this country
shows disrespect for Islam.

It fuels and builds the hatred, the contempt, the enmity and revulsion that some in the Muslim world feel for us -- exactly the sort of feeling that
motivated the 9/11 attackers.

You really think we can't get what we need without urinating on Korans?

Are we honestly not more resourceful than that?

[Zat0pek]

Zat, your line of argument continually neglects the fact that there
is a price to pay -- at some point, down the line -- when this country
shows disrespect for Islam.

It fuels and builds the hatred, the contempt, the enmity and revulsion that some in the Muslim world feel for us -- exactly the sort of feeling that
motivated the 9/11 attackers.

You really think we can't get what we need without urinating on Korans?

Are we honestly not more resourceful than that?

I don't ignore it; I just don't care about it. The reason I don't care about it is because I fully understand all the dynamics of it and realize there really isn't anything, a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g, we can realistically do about it and we cannot let that dictate things like interrogation tactics. The far left simply doesn't understand the 2,000 year old roots of it and honestly, sincerely believes that the best way to counter terrorist attacks is with compassion and understanding, reaching out with empathy to the attackers. While noble and certainly what we should be doing on some fronts, I recognize how foolhardy it is to let that approach dictate defense policy.

Interrogation is but one way of extracting information from someone that doesn't want to give it up. I wholeheartedly support the use of drugs/truth serums instead. Far more effective than any interrogation technique (my military relatives assure me that the CIA has stuff waaaaaaaay beyond sodium pentothal and has had for years). Give 'em a little shot, ask 'em some questions, and send 'em on their way with no more harm to them than the needle stick for the shot once they shake it off. I, of course, am operating on the premise that non-uniformed terrorists not aligned with a state are not covered by Geneva and that such tactics would be available under those circumstances. Sometimes, yes, the the ends DO justify the means. Could it be seriously argued that executing Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot would have been improper means to the end of preventing the slaughter of millions?

But guys like Durbin object to that as well.

Let me clarify: I support any and all necessary means of obtaining information from those that possess it that could potentially deter future attacks, lead to the capture of terrorist leaders and save American lives, so long as those means do not result in permanant physical harm and do not constitute torture, which is of questionable efficacy in the first place. In such circumstances, with thousands of lives at stake, one should first play to win, with winning defined as preventig loss of life. That does NOT mean that long-term diplomatic consequences can or should be ignored; it simply means that they cannot effect policy in such a way as to diminish the chances for achieving the first priority, victory in the military/defense sense of the word. That is why I said I don't care; the concerns you mentioned simply have no effect on that first priority.

These discussions always remind me of Jack Nicholson's "you can't handle the truth" tirade in A Few Good Men. It's always amusing to me to listen to people that don't have the responsibility for protecting other people's lives, and their own, criticize such tactics by those that do have that responsibility.

Urninating on the Koran isn't even on the same planet as my definition of torture. Is it good public policy or PR? Hell, no, it isn't! But we're not talking about public policy or PR. We're talking about interrogating people with potentially valuable information that would really prefer to see our entire country wiped off the face of the Earth (which brings me back to my earlier question about why anyone in their right mind would report this story; where is the outrage that this story was reported at all?). Small differences there, don't you think?

As I have said repeatedly, this issue, far more than any other, is why the Democratic party is merely token opposition at the national level. Voters get this. They understand the need to first win the war, then win the peace. But the Democratic party has allowed the fear and mistrust of themselves resulting from their mishandling of Vietnam become part of their genetics. As crazy as he is, Zell Miller was dead on with his speech at the Republican convention (have you seen the SNL parody of him, where under his name on the screen they identify him as "crazy person"? It's hysterical). Democrats have simply walked away from blue collar, working class families that could make them a virtual monopoly in national politics. But those voters need to know for sure that if someone throws the first punch at us, we will always throw the last one. They had that with Truman. They had that with Kennedy (who used a brilliant blend of diplomacy and force; no one doubted he would pull the trigger). They haven't had it since. Not Johnson, DEFINITELY not McGovern, not Carter, not Mondale, not Dukakis, not Clinton, not Gore, not Kerry.

I really wish they'd figure it out, because until they do, the unchecked power of the Republican party scares the hell out of me.

[jersey_guy]

Another ****ing liberal lie.

The Koran was urinated on and ripped up alright, but by the prisoners, not the guards.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-boot9jun09,0,226875.column?coll=la-util-opinion-commentary

How are we gonna spin this one, MoMo??

[Zat0pek]

From the article:

You'd never know this from the news coverage, which pounced on Hood's finding of five confirmed incidents of Koran abuse as proof that Newsweek was on to something with its phony-baloney report about guards flushing a Koran down the toilet.

Far from confirming accusations of American depravity, what the report actually shows is that Guantanamo is the first gulag in history run on the principle that no sensibility of the inmates should be offended, no matter how inadvertently.

All inmates are furnished a Koran at U.S. government expense. Since they're imprisoned because they are suspected of being violent religious extremists, some might object that this adds fuel to the fire. But that's not the view of the "Stalinists" who run the Defense Department. For some nefarious reason, they have issued guidelines that call for the utmost respect for the sacred scripture of their enemies.

At Gitmo, personnel receive instructions: "Do not disrespect the Koran (let it touch the floor, kick it, step on it)." They must "handle the Koran as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art." This means ensuring "that the Koran is not placed in offensive areas such as the floor, near the toilet or sink, near the feet, or dirty/wet area." Only Muslim chaplains and interpreters are actually supposed to touch a Koran, and then only if wearing clean latex gloves. Moreover: "Two hands will be used at all times when handling the Koran in a manner signaling respect and reverence."

[TrackDaddy]

I agree with Zat.

[exjersey1]

'Far from confirming accusations of American depravity, what the report actually shows is that Guantanamo is the first gulag in history run on the principle that no sensibility of the inmates should be offended, no matter how inadvertently.

All inmates are furnished a Koran at U.S. government expense. Since they're imprisoned because they are suspected of being violent religious extremists, some might object that this adds fuel to the fire. But that's not the view of the "Stalinists" who run the Defense Department. For some nefarious reason, they have issued guidelines that call for the utmost respect for the sacred scripture of their enemies.

At Gitmo, personnel receive instructions: "Do not disrespect the Koran (let it touch the floor, kick it, step on it)." They must "handle the Koran as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art." This means ensuring "that the Koran is not placed in offensive areas such as the floor, near the toilet or sink, near the feet, or dirty/wet area." Only Muslim chaplains and interpreters are actually supposed to touch a Koran, and then only if wearing clean latex gloves. Moreover: "Two hands will be used at all times when handling the Koran in a manner signaling respect and reverence."'


What this tells me is that we have imprisoned these people solely on the basis of religious affiliation and not because they're deemed as violent/dangerous.

There is a reason that we've reduced ourselves to allowing ourselves to having our government talk us into living in fear of terrorism. There is a reason that piss-ant countries like North Korea have pretty much become a nuclear contract manufacturer for other parts of the world. There is a reason why warlords in the Balkans and Africa were allowed and are still continuing to engage in genocide with total impunity.

These countries and leaders all know that while the US still has complete and overwhelming firepower, we have no one with the cojones to actually use it. We're too concerned with rules of engagement, so no one even respects us, much less fears us.

JFK made the Soviets blink over the Cuban missiles, yet Bush can't do anything with North Korea.

If we want to try to continue with the idea of the US being the cops of the world, then just fcuking do it; don't just talk about it. But either do it right, or don't do it at all.

[jersey_guy]

What this tells me is that we have imprisoned these people solely on the basis of religious affiliation and not because they're deemed as violent/dangerous.


Wow you just blow my mind. So many Jews and Buddhists were shooting at our troops in Afghanistan, but we released them all because of their religious affiliation...


These countries and leaders all know that while the US still has complete and overwhelming firepower, we have no one with the cojones to actually use it. We're too concerned with rules of engagement, so no one even respects us, much less fears us.


Of course if we did something about it, half of the Democratic Party would be in the street, chanting "give piss a chance," "Bush = Hitler," and "send Rumsfeld to the Hague."

[exjersey1]

Wow you just blow my mind. So many Jews and Buddhists were shooting at our troops in Afghanistan, but we released them all because of their religious affiliation...





Not everyone in Gitmo is Afghani, nor were all of them captured/detained in Afghanistan, nor are all of them combatants.

[jersey_guy]

Not everyone in Gitmo is Afghani, nor were all of them captured/detained in Afghanistan, nor are all of them combatants.

Not true. All detainees who were not enemy combatants have been released. Some of them were then killed/captured again, this time fighting US forces for sure.

http://english.people.com.cn/200503/30/eng20050330_178748.html

[exjersey1]

One of many links to this story (and others in the same vein)


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8049868/

[MoMo]

Zat, I'm surprised that you still don't get it.

I, too, would defend extreme measures against our proven enemies if we could feel, fairly reliably, that they would save American lives (and both torture and humiliation are not reliable at that).

But when you take those extreme measures and those extreme measures make you 1,000 NEW enemies -- or 10,000 or 1 million -- for every time you violate the Geneva conventions or infuriate genuinely religious Muslims, you're just building up a whole new stockpile -- a whole new generation -- of enemies.

People who don't understand the importance not just of hard tactics but of soft tactics, not just of hard power but of soft power, not just of hard persuasion but of soft persuasion, are doomed to win a few narrow short-term victories, then pay a price for years -- no, make it decades -- to come.

These are the McNamaras and the Rumsfelds of the world -- damned good at Day 1 through 30 (or 60 or 90) of the war, but lousy at what comes next, because they glorify their own overwhelming firepower and pay too little attention to the enemy's determined STAYING power.

[Zat0pek]

Zat, I'm surprised that you still don't get it.

MoMo, I DO get it. Read my post again. Your "soft tactics, soft persuasion, soft power" approach has NO PLACE in interrogation. Period. Everything has its time and place.

Care to comment on my observation that the problem isn't the interrogation tactic, but the REPORTING of the interrogation tactic?

[Dyenimator]

WHAT?!?!?!?

LOL...you're a trip, man.

--->Natural european diseases of which some were INTENTIONALLY spread.

No way the Jewish holocaust (that DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES AND WASN'T CONDUCTED BY AMERICANS) is anywhere close to the GENOCIDE carried out against NATIVE AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Not even close.

Consider...

Various sources estimate native population in North and South America at 90 to 100 million prior to the arrival of Europeans.

In the 1500's, the American Indian population in North America has been estimated at approximately 12 million, but by the early 1900's, the population had been reduced to roughly 474,000!!!!! :eek:

We can talk about the mass graves and unthinkable brutality if you like.

From a numerical perspective, Hitler's FOREIGN LAND atrocities...don't even compare.

Even the Declaration of Independence refers to Indians as mere savages so the genocide being carried out and still yet to come was all but officlailly "Declared."

Drop the "THE" Holocaust stuff.

History has MANY OF THEM (including slavery)...some of which ACTUALLY HAPPENED HERE and INVOLVED AMERICANS.

The Jewish ordeal wasn't one of them but seems to receive the most sympathy.

Hmm...I wonder why. :rolleyes:

Makes no sense whatsoever.

All of the mass genocides/holocausts should receive the same amount of sympathy that the Jewish one gets.

P.S. Watch it now, Jwaksbaugh might cry over your post. ;)

[Jwaksman]

Cry? Why? I feel bad for someone as ignorant as TD. He hates whites, and Jews especially, because of that old silly idea that Jews are the whitest whites. But that's fine. I always believe that stupid people are here for our enjoyment. When someone belittles the Holocaust simply because they have ignorant stereotypes about Jews I generally don't get mad, I just pity.

[Jwaksman]

We did not ever INCINERATE Native Americans into mass crematoriums. That comparison is disgusting.



Be careful, don't encourage them - you don't want them to think that they can actually have a rational debate over whether the Americans did worse things to the Indians than the Nazis did to the Jews.... :D

[TrackDaddy]

Like I said...THE Holocaust DIDN'T even happen IN THIS COUNTRY and AMERICANS DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Why does it dominate the term as though Jews are the only people in history to have suffered it?

Depending on one's specific take on the word holocaust...It's happened MANY TIMES.

IN THIS COUNTRY it has happened!!!!! By and to RESIDENTS OF THE CONTINENTAL US.

The Jewish Holocaust is called "THE" holocaust for reasons that are open for debate.

But Native Americans went from an estimated population of 100 million before the European invasion to a MERE 474,000 by the 1900's.

This was THEIR COUNTRY and they still suffer immensely today.

You want to talk holocaust?

Let's talk holocaust. :cool:

[TrackDaddy]

One cant' even fathom a reduction of 100 million PEOPLE (yes they were people Jwaks) down to 474,000!

Populations INCREASE over time!

Their numbers should have been 2-3 times the pre European number by the 20th century.

But a HOLOCAUST occurred that made that devil Hitler look like a wannabe.

[Jwaksman]

You are a despicable anti-semite. When you say your white-hating stuff, atleast I have backup because there are a lot of white people here. But no one else here, besides Layla, stands up to your utter nonsense. Every post the number of native Americans gets bigger (15 Million? 100 Million? 100 Billion?) and you equate a person who dies because they caught the common cold from an unwitting European farmer to a person who dies in a torture chamber.


You are a horrible person. This is the kind of stuff that makes me hope that there's a God, so that you can get your comeuppance when you die.

[exjersey1]

We did not ever INCINERATE Native Americans into mass crematoriums. That comparison is disgusting.

***sigh***

As someone who had a great-grandparent and other relatives I never met because of a little place called Auschwitz, I have a different perspective than most, if not all of you. Have any of you ever met and talked with anyone with a Concentration Camp tattoo?

The gas chambers were Hitler's "Final Solution" and were not part of the original plan of the camps. That's why many of the earlier ones got closed down and folded into the larger and later Death Camps.

The Jews call it "The" Holocaust, just as other religious or ethnic groups have their own names for what they went through. As part of the whole "Never forgive, never forget" idea, we will never let that era become a forgotten part of history. I'm sure that the Cambodians feel the same way about the Pol Pot era, the Russians about Stalin's era, etc.

What you need to remember is that before the Final Solution phase, there were just Concentration Camps, places where Jews and other "undesirables" or non-Aryans could be segregated. Kind of like Indian Reservations. Instead of the Trail of Tears, my ancestors and their neighbors were put on trucks and trains.

Hitler and the Germans didn't invent either genocide or mass murder, and it didn't end there either. Those people who view The Holocaust as an isolated, Jewish-only issue are burying their heads in the sand.

[Kalaby]

***sigh***

As someone who had a great-grandparent and other relatives I never met because of a little place called Auschwitz, I have a different perspective than most, if not all of you. Have any of you ever met and talked with anyone with a Concentration Camp tattoo?

The gas chambers were Hitler's "Final Solution" and were not part of the original plan of the camps. That's why many of the earlier ones got closed down and folded into the larger and later Death Camps.

The Jews call it "The" Holocaust, just as other religious or ethnic groups have their own names for what they went through. As part of the whole "Never forgive, never forget" idea, we will never let that era become a forgotten part of history. I'm sure that the Cambodians feel the same way about the Pol Pot era, the Russians about Stalin's era, etc.

What you need to remember is that before the Final Solution phase, there were just Concentration Camps, places where Jews and other "undesirables" or non-Aryans could be segregated. Kind of like Indian Reservations. Instead of the Trail of Tears, my ancestors and their neighbors were put on trucks and trains.

Hitler and the Germans didn't invent either genocide or mass murder, and it didn't end there either. Those people who view The Holocaust as an isolated, Jewish-only issue are burying their heads in the sand.

Very true. Unfortunately, almost every culture/ethnicity has their own personal horror stories of genocide and/or other atrocities. There's really no need for the "my ________'s (fill in the blank with country, religion, ethnicity, etc.) suffering is worse than yours" kind of stuff. The bottom line is that it's all horrible.

[MoMo]

zat, sorry if i leapt to conclusions about your post.

first time i've ever done that in 39 years on dyestat. :o

well, obviously it's better for the american image if the nastiness that goes on in abu ghraib or guantanamo never sees light of day.

the fact that it did tells me either that our soldiers are not uniformly trained, commanded and disciplined well enough to keep such stuff quiet (digital cameras, anyone? hey, let's take more naked doggy pictures!), or that they are too honorable (as in the guy who squealed on abu ghraib) to keep such stuff quiet.

seems to me that unless you leave the nasty stuff to the hard-core, experienced, seriously trained, career CIA types, you're playing with fire.
and you will get burned.

[Jwaksman]

well, obviously it's better for the american image if the nastiness that goes on in abu ghraib or guantanamo never sees light of day.




Which is exacty why it's the front page story in every major newspaper and on every newschannel every day... except for those owned by Rupert Murdoch, of course.

[TrackDaddy]

You are a despicable anti-semite. When you say your white-hating stuff, atleast I have backup because there are a lot of white people here. But no one else here, besides Layla, stands up to your utter nonsense. Every post the number of native Americans gets bigger (15 Million? 100 Million? 100 Billion?) and you equate a person who dies because they caught the common cold from an unwitting European farmer to a person who dies in a torture chamber.


You are a horrible person. This is the kind of stuff that makes me hope that there's a God, so that you can get your comeuppance when you die.Anti semite, white hater, utterly nonsensical, horrible.

That's a lot of adjectives aimed at TrackDaddy, player.

And you say your backup is that a lot of white people are in here?

You mean the SAME white people who watch you type LIES and SPIN THE TRUTH EVERY DAY?

The SAME white people who think you're GREEDY, SELFISH and MISERABLY MISINFORMED?

Oh...those white people.

Got it. :rolleyes:

As for Layla...she needs to come up for air. Her nose is buried so pathetically deep...that she's on the verge of losing what little Lounge credibility she has left.

Layla...wipe your face.

It's the first step to restoring dignity.

And I can only be sorry that anyone would think this doesn't need to be said... but for HISTORICAL TRUTH purposes it does.

It's NOT so that "mine is worse than yours" can be said...it's so that mine CAN BE RECOGNIZED AT ALL.

As for God...if vengence is the only reason you "hope" there is one, and you don't believe because of the requirement to or the evidence provided...

Then you're hoping the wrong direction, Jack.

Now, YOU were the one that TRIED to trivialize the roles of WHITE PEOPLE in the GENOCIDE conducted on Native Americans over the course of CENTURIES.

I suggest you read what the propagandist regime(s) left out of your "selective" studies.

Ever heard of ..."The World's Longest Holocaust?"

The one that took more lives than any in WORLD HISTORY?

Probably not.

Even as you sleep...in their bed.

[TrackDaddy]

As for the silly insinuations that I'm trying to trivialize "THE" holocaust...that's incorrect.

I fully recognize the horrors commited IN A FORIEGN LAND by NON-AMERICANS against NON-AMERICANS.

Who doesn't?

I mean...we hear of it all the time.

Dude...strutting around securing his Ivy League education...dismissing the atrocities STILL (http://federaltimes.com/index2.php?S=926712) being committed...against this land's natives.

TrackDaddy chose not to let that mess go unchecked. :cool:

As you were.

[jersey_guy]

But when you take those extreme measures and those extreme measures make you 1,000 NEW enemies -- or 10,000 or 1 million -- for every time you violate the Geneva conventions


You are unbelievably naive if you think the average madrassa-educated Islamist gives a **** about whether or not we adhere to ANY secular conventions. An infidel is an infidel is an infidel and must be killed. And stop whining about "extreme measures" and watch instead a couple of beheading videos to remind yourself who our enemy is.

[MoMo]

You are unbelievably naive if you think the average madrassa-educated Islamist gives a **** about whether or not we adhere to ANY secular conventions. An infidel is an infidel is an infidel and must be killed. And stop whining about "extreme measures" and watch instead a couple of beheading videos to remind yourself who our enemy is.

And you, j-guy, are unbelievably naive if you think that all the stories and pictures from Abu Ghraib and Gitmo aren't being used every hour of every day by Islamic extremists to help recruit more students for the madrassas, to sign up more suicide bombers for Iraq, and to talk more future beheaders into joining their cause.

[exjersey1]

And you, j-guy, are unbelievably naive if you think that all the stories and pictures from Abu Ghraib and Gitmo aren't being used every hour of every day by Islamic extremists to help recruit more students for the madrassas, to sign up more suicide bombers for Iraq, and to talk more future beheaders into joining their cause.


I'm thinking that the 70+% unemployment rate in "liberated" Iraq isn't helping much, either.

[TrackDaddy]

***sigh***

As someone who had a great-grandparent and other relatives I never met because of a little place called Auschwitz, I have a different perspective than most, if not all of you. Have any of you ever met and talked with anyone with a Concentration Camp tattoo?I understood that this wasn't about who had it worse so...

Why would you tell us this?

That sounds really bad and everything but a lot of people have a story.

Unlike yours...some people's story happened in this hemisphere.

For example...

You didn't know your family huh?

I don't even know what country my ancesters were from.

Virtually no black people do.

All we know, by assumption...is a continent.

Our heritage was erased.

So...like you...I didn't know who my great grandfather's were either.

Although I do know (partly because of the freckles on my caramel colored behind)...

That one of them...must've been a white dude. :cool:

[TrackDaddy]

I mentioned the Armenian one. How many of you even knew about that? It isn't even NOTED in high school history classes.I've heard of it.

But I don't find it remarkable that it isn't mentioned in UNITED STATES high school history books.

Other WORLD history events are omitted as well.

What IS remarkable is your perspective on the genocidal episodes that occurred HERE (native american, african, etc).

WHICH ARE ALMOST WITHOUT PEER AS GENOCIDAL EPISODES. Certainly none OUTSIDE of the US having NOTHING TO DO WITH AMERICANS mean more...could they?

THEY OCCURRED OVER CENTURIES.

BTW, THEY WERE ALSO OMITTED/limited in their entirety FROM US history books for many years AND THEY HAPPENED RIGHT HERE.

When I was a kid...there was NO MENTION in history class of the atrocities suffered by Native Americans...only silly stuff like they lived in Teepees and how they taught the Europeans (who although never mentioned...would later destroy them) how to grow corn.

Oh yeah... the silly cowboy type John Wayne movies where the Indians were always the bad guys. :rolleyes:

As for Slavery/Jim Crow/Civil Rights Movement being taught in school back then?

ONE PARAGRAPH.

There is a HUGE difference between what happened to the Native Americans and what happened to the Jews, Gypsies, and Non-Germanic-Tribe at the time. I don't find them comparable. Here...we most DEFINITELY agree.

[TrackDaddy]

Credibility only matters when I give a damn about the audience. That one's at you, TrackDaddy.Actually, you do care about me.

[exjersey1]

.....a lot of people have a story.



Exactly.

What some of the youngsters seem not to understand is that belittling someone else's history doesn't, by default, make yours more important. Some people have a habit of forgetting that you can't get respect unless you're also willing to show respect.

[Sebrle]

I'm thinking that the 70+% unemployment rate in "liberated" Iraq isn't helping much, either.

Is this from an Aljazeera Article citing a Baghdad University study, I'm getting flashbacks of a NY Times reports that the US has killed 100k+ Iraqis that nobody is quoting anymore.

But if it is true I would love to view the applied statistical methods and relative perspective in regards to other middle east nations, sadly I've grown a bit paranoid over "politically convienant" stats.

[exjersey1]

Is this from an Aljazeera Article citing a Baghdad University study, I'm getting flashbacks of a NY Times reports that the US has killed 100k+ Iraqis that nobody is quoting anymore.

But if it is true I would love to view the applied statistical methods and relative perspective in regards to other middle east nations, sadly I've grown a bit paranoid over "politically convienant" stats.

No, actually that figure's from that noted hotbed of liberalism, the Hoover Institution.

[Zat0pek]

What makes THE Holocaust stand alone among all other atrocities is that the camps were the only assembly line ever designed simply to kill humans.

Concentration camps were like meat packing plants or factories; they had quotas, they kept track how of efficiently (how very German of them) they were processing the Jews, they examined ways to make to themselves more productive, the list goes on and on. They used some for lab animals.

The difference is that even in the U.S. with slavery, slaves were (constitutionally at least) still considered "3/5" of a person. Native Americans were considered "savages" but still human. In other words, those groups were considered "sub-human." But Jews were considered to be non-human, and killing a Jew was no more consequential than killing a rat.

Both TD and Layla are correct here. Many atrocities DO get overshadowed by the Holocaust and don't get the attention they deserve. Historians HAVE, for the most part, de-emphasized the more despicable parts of our history (though the revisionist history I often see now is just as bad). I completely agree with TD on that. But Layla is correct that THE Holocaust DOES stand alone as a unique brand of evil. It is one horror to consider a fellow human being "inferior" to you. It is yet another to consider them not even to be human.

[Sebrle]

No, actually that figure's from that noted hotbed of liberalism, the Hoover Institution.

Got a link?

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:U5cxPFXNHsEJ:english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A66151CB-2105-418B-BFAA-73211A631611.htm+70+iraq+unemployment&hl=en

[MoMo]

The genocide of Armenians was not as clearly organized and directed (or as well documented) as that of Jews in World War II, but it did include systematic killings (notably of Armenian leaders and intellectuals), forced marches under conditions that seemed meant to kill (no food or water during hikes through desert areas), and the creation of "concentration camps" where thousands died.

So-called "butcher brigades" oversaw much of this work.

[exjersey1]

Got a link?

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:U5cxPFXNHsEJ:english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A66151CB-2105-418B-BFAA-73211A631611.htm+70+iraq+unemployment&hl=en

I'll see what I can find. I hadn't originally seen it in print, but early last week on KGO (Bay Area ABC affiliate) one of the fellows of the Hoover Institution was being interviewed and he gave out that number.

[MoMo]

This isn't 70%, but 50% is bad enough:

Associated Press:
An Iraqi labor leader on Thursday called for the immediate withdrawal of coalition forces from his country, rejecting suggestions that a civil war would erupt without the U.S. military there.
"We don't expect any of that to happen, especially a civil war that they're talking about; that will not happen," Adnan A. Rashed, a member of the executive board of the Iraqi Federation of Labor, said at a speech at Stony Brook University on Long Island.
Rashed also said his countrymen are ready to immediately take over from occupation forces.
Rashed is part of a six-member delegation of Iraqi labor leaders who have been touring the United States.
The Iraqi labor officials contend that their countrymen are facing a 50 percent unemployment rate and those who do have jobs earn the equivalent of $35 a week.

[Sebrle]

MoMo, you miss the point, I don’t want a number. I want to see the motivation behind the number, the method it was attained, and perspective on comparable situations.

For example if you took every American including spouses, students, children, and retired one could probably claim this country has a 50% unemployment rate.

[TrackDaddy]

I could not agree with what you said more here. Although you must realize now that more time is spent in US History classes on slavery and the Native Americans, almost as if they're making up for the lack of time they spent in your days.

So now what they leave out is some of the less savory aspects of past presidents. I've recommended this book to you once before and I'll do it again because you'll love it: "Lies my Teacher Told Me: Everything your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James Loewen. You'll find some interesting information on Woodrow Wilson and FDR, as well as a lot of information on the wars the US has participated in, etc. Good read.

I'd be the first to admit the US has done some seriously nasty things, to its own residents and to those abroad. Aligning the Native American atrocities to the Nazi Atrocities is a bit extreme, I think.Thanks for the recommendation.

[TrackDaddy]

What makes THE Holocaust stand alone among all other atrocities is that the camps were the only assembly line ever designed simply to kill humans.

Concentration camps were like meat packing plants or factories; they had quotas, they kept track how of efficiently (how very German of them) they were processing the Jews, they examined ways to make to themselves more productive, the list goes on and on. They used some for lab animals.

The difference is that even in the U.S. with slavery, slaves were (constitutionally at least) still considered "3/5" of a person. Native Americans were considered "savages" but still human. In other words, those groups were considered "sub-human." But Jews were considered to be non-human, and killing a Jew was no more consequential than killing a rat.

Both TD and Layla are correct here. Many atrocities DO get overshadowed by the Holocaust and don't get the attention they deserve. Historians HAVE, for the most part, de-emphasized the more despicable parts of our history (though the revisionist history I often see now is just as bad). I completely agree with TD on that. But Layla is correct that THE Holocaust DOES stand alone as a unique brand of evil. It is one horror to consider a fellow human being "inferior" to you. It is yet another to consider them not even to be human.Those are good points Zat.

I agree that the methods were different for conducting the evil.

But the one's suffered HERE and conducted by AMERICANS were conducted over CENTURIES and have social consequences affecting their humanity that are far greater.

In terms of time...it isn't close.

Also I disagree that Jews weren't considered human by the Nazi regime.

Just because they weren't treated as such, doesn't mean they didn't recognize it.

Why else would they bother to kill them?

Hitler declared that ONLY "pure" Germans would be regarded as citizens.

Hitler blamed Jews for certain things that had happened to Germany. He had a lot fearful conspiracies in his head regarding them.

In terms of a somewhat "concentrated act of brutality" in that it occurred over a decade or so ...the Jewish Holocaust may indeed stand alone.

[MoMo]

if you took every American including spouses, students, children, and retired one could probably claim this country has a 50% unemployment rate.

Um, I think it's pretty standard, seb, not to include retirees and little kids in joblessness figures.

But spouses? Is only one adult per couple allowed to have a job? Kind of old-school thinking there, wouldn't you say?

[Kalaby]

This is sure to open up a can of worms, but here goes anyway:

In terms of the aforementioned atrocities committed against Native Americans and Blacks (specifically slavery) in this country over many centuries, who are the past and present day Americans that should shoulder the blame for this? I often see it as an opportunity to hold ALL white Americans of European ancestry accountable, but I think that is a very dangerous generalization. Thoughts?

[KenA55]

This is sure to open up a can of worms, but here goes anyway:

In terms of the aforementioned atrocities committed against Native Americans and Blacks (specifically slavery) in this country over many centuries, who are the past and present day Americans that should shoulder the blame for this? I often see it as an opportunity to hold ALL white Americans of European ancestry accountable, but I think that is a very dangerous generalization. Thoughts?

Those 100 million numbers, btw, reflect the most liberal estimates of native populations throughout both continents of the new world, not the populations estimated to exist within today's US borders. Usually you see something more like 10-15 mil at most for that. Of course nothing but educated rough estimates exist.

We all collectively shoulder the crimes of all humanity throughout the ages and into the unknown future, I'd say the dangerous thing about the generalization above is that it isn't general enough. When you want to single out a particular group to bear the brunt for a past social ill, it seems to me it's about fingerpointing rather than about being on guard so as not to make the same sorts of mistakes over and over again- which pretty accurately summarizes humanity's long-term history in this regard, agree? We're quite good at eventually getting around to the same mistakes, over and over again.

Here's an aside that intrigues me- if biological evolution has actual merit, it's hypothetically conceivable that geographically isolated groups of today's homo sapiens could have eventually diverged to the extent that they are no longer reproductively compatable and are in fact no longer the same species. Hypothetically, it could have happened that European caucasians and Sub-Sahara Africans and American Indians were different animals. We often use words like 'we're all human' or 'they we're treated as sub-humans' to frame these atrocities. Now if the other guy in these particular instances actually was a different animal from your particular group, would that make this stuff ok then?

[TrackDaddy]

This is sure to open up a can of worms, but here goes anyway:

In terms of the aforementioned atrocities committed against Native Americans and Blacks (specifically slavery) in this country over many centuries, who are the past and present day Americans that should shoulder the blame for this? I often see it as an opportunity to hold ALL white Americans of European ancestry accountable, but I think that is a very dangerous generalization. Thoughts?By retracing the thread one would find that a comment was made effectively minimizing the role of whites in the genocide of Native Americans.

Who, pray tell, then is to blame?

Like I said, our Declaration of Independence refers to this land's natives as savages.

Essential because their culture was different, their language was different and so was their skin.

Ken is wrong that everyone bears responsibility, unless it can also be said that everyone was Nazi.

He is correct in his inference that mankind has broad genodical tendencies the result of which great calamity has been experienced by many "foriegn cultures."

Blame isn't the issue.

Recognition/acknowledgement of the lethality/legitimacy of the crime is.

And finally...I personally have always found it interesting that a foriegn atrocity is recognized/acknowledged far more than those that happened here.

By this hand.

[jrun]

Here's an aside that intrigues me- if biological evolution has actual merit, it's hypothetically conceivable that geographically isolated groups of today's homo sapiens could have eventually diverged to the extent that they are no longer reproductively compatable and are in fact no longer the same species. Hypothetically, it could have happened that European caucasians and Sub-Sahara Africans and American Indians were different animals. We often use words like 'we're all human' or 'they we're treated as sub-humans' to frame these atrocities. Now if the other guy in these particular instances actually was a different animal from your particular group, would that make this stuff ok then?


Uhh....gulp.....wow.

[KenA55]

Uhh....gulp.....wow.

Who knows, Neanderthal Man may have some pretty damning evidence to offer up against his more sapient cousins come judgement day. ;)

TD, you may go on imagining that there is some sort of degree of seperation between yourself, myself, and members of the German Nazi party during WWII if you like. But one day better judgment will win out for us all in this particular regard. It is by our hand that six million jews were exterminated at that time, and there will be no escaping that judgment in the end.

[100% Ozone Safe]

I agree with Zat.


You mean the SAME white people who watch you type LIES and SPIN THE TRUTH EVERY DAY?


aaaaaaah... irony.

(sorry to bring humor into this)

[Zat0pek]

And finally...I personally have always found it interesting that a foriegn atrocity is recognized/acknowledged far more than those that happened here.

I don't find that surprising at all. We always see the faults of others easier than we see our own.

[TrackDaddy]

I don't find that surprising at all. We always see the faults of others easier than we see our own.I've never thought of it that way (hey...that's your point exactly, eh? ;) ).

You're right.

[TrackDaddy]

Who knows, Neanderthal Man may have some pretty damning evidence to offer up against his more sapient cousins come judgement day. ;)

TD, you may go on imagining that there is some sort of degree of seperation between yourself, myself, and members of the German Nazi party during WWII if you like. But one day better judgment will win out for us all in this particular regard. It is by our hand that six million jews were exterminated at that time, and there will be no escaping that judgment in the end.Ken,

I prefer to believe that Hitler and his regime were unusually evil people.

Not at all like you and I.

In that mankind committed these crimes, I suppose you have a point being that we are like creatures.

But I can't look at Jewish Holocaust pictures w/o being moved almost to tears...

I suspect Hitler's reaction to the real thing was quite different.

[jersey_guy]

Hitler was high on speed most of the time, so I don't know about his "reaction."

[Sebrle]

Um, I think it's pretty standard, seb

Then why does your report say 50% and exjersey's 70%, again my point is I want to see the method before I absorb, I'm not very trusting :(

[exjersey1]

Then why does your report say 50% and exjersey's 70%, again my point is I want to see the method before I absorb, I'm not very trusting :(

Didn't forget about you, Sebrle.

I've poked around the KGO archives as well as the Hoover Inst's site and couldn't find documentation. It's possible that I caught his statement out of context, since I had the news on while cooking dinner. The Hoover guy might have mentioned the 70% figure as part of a response to the Iraqi labor reps who were at the meeting and first broached that number.

[mzungu]

It's just hyperbole. Both Republicans and Democrats have bad habits of calling everyone that they disagree with a Nazi and/or a Stalinist. It's catering to voters like mzungu, who really do believe that the US is worse than Stalinist Russia.

your last statement is a heck of a lot less accurate than durbin's. first of all, i certainly do not think that the us is or ever has been anywhere near as bad as stalinist russia, not even comparable. second, i heard a radio station in which the reporter was reading descriptions of torture methods by pol pot, stalin, hitler, and bush, and conservative callers were unable to distinguish them. again, the u.s. has not engaged in torture on anything even close to the scale practiced by those other regimes. but it has justified and used some of the same torture methods throughout the world, by the authority of the highest levels of the executive branch.