Lying about seed times

[LCSHSfan]

What do you think about a coach consistently under-reporting an athlete's times (meaning seeding at much slower than actual times) so that the runner can be in the slowest heat and not have to worry about the pack or getting boxed in? Suppposedly the idea is that the runner can run their own race and sneak into 5th or 6th place overeall out of the slowest unseeded heat. On one hand, athletes need to be aware of who ran what times in previous heats, but on the other it seems harder to beat a time than an actual body running ahead of you. Also, this would deprive the slower runners of the chance to win a race among comparable runners in the heat. Is this permitted and ethical? Is it just good strategy if you have a runner who likes space? Or is it wrong and unfair to other athletes? Opinions please.

[Gator]

Usually the problem is that seeds are slower than actual times, hoping that the runner is "pulled" to a better time than would occur in the slower heat.

[78Champ]

Usually the problem is that seeds are faster than actual times, hoping that the runner is "pulled" to a better time than would occur in the slower heat.

Fixed.

JW

[westcoaststyle]

What do you think about a coach consistently under-reporting an athlete's times (meaning seeding at much slower than actual times) so that the runner can be in the slowest heat and not have to worry about the pack or getting boxed in? Suppposedly the idea is that the runner can run their own race and sneak into 5th or 6th place overeall out of the slowest unseeded heat. On one hand, athletes need to be aware of who ran what times in previous heats, but on the other it seems harder to beat a time than an actual body running ahead of you. Also, this would deprive the slower runners of the chance to win a race among comparable runners in the heat. Is this permitted and ethical? Is it just good strategy if you have a runner who likes space? Or is it wrong and unfair to other athletes? Opinions please.

This happened quite often this past indoor season. I think that it is a more common practice during indoors because of the confinment of indoor tracks. I've had a debate on how ethical the practice is and personally, I think it is not ethical for a coach to do. I've also seen coaches in dual meets put their fast guy in a slow heat which I don't think is fair.

[CGBatch]

As of now I'm all for lying about seed times until something is done to actually verify them. Do I agree with doing it? No. However the best way to change a rule is a abuse it heavily. You create an issue it gets fixed. Meets (especially championships) need to step it up and go to Online entries with pre entry followed by declarations/scratches and such.

[JerseyTrackie]

but on the other it seems harder to beat a time than an actual body running ahead of you.

Agree with you on that, so I can't see putting down a slower seed time.

I know my coach would always put my best time, or sometimes just a few seconds faster to hopefully bump up into a faster heat/pack.

[dcsonic17]

Even in College its bad...ESPECIALLY Northeastern U....first 2 meets they seeded their hurdlers at 14.67, 14.82, 14.96...2 ran 17.3+ 1 ran 16.6...none of them fell, they just were HORRIBLE!!! Yet they got into the top seeded heat each time...its horrible, it sucks, its almost impossible to check for most meets.

[LCSHSfan]

I think for all invitational meets, coaches should have to submit the reference for the seed time--the meet and the date where that time was run. A good coach has all that information in his records anyway, so I don't think this would be too much of a burden. Doing this would allow for internet verification by officials. Obviously no one will have time to carefully check everything for every meet, but at least for county championships and state-level meets there could be some random checking done. Meet directors, coaches and even alert spectators probably know who the frequent violators are. Those people also know approximately what times the better athletes are running, so a quick glance at seeds should catch really obvious lies. If violations are found, the team is barred from the meet.

There's one case in our county that's so egregious, ordinary parents in the stands were complaining about how the coach always lies. It's appalling that someone higher up can't stop at least the really glaring situations like that.

[oldgmcrunner]

This past weekend the defending indoor 800m champ seeded at 2:38 and ran aloneand untouched in the unseeded heat. This after she did the same indoors and won out of the unseeded.....someone should have noticed it besides the coaches....finished tied for second this time(no automatic timing)...

[westcoaststyle]

This past weekend the defending indoor 800m champ seeded at 2:38 and ran aloneand untouched in the unseeded heat. This after she did the same indoors and won out of the unseeded.....someone should have noticed it besides the coaches....finished tied for second this time(no automatic timing)...

This sounds unethical on the coaches part unless the athlete has been injured this season and has not run any races this season.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

We've covered this ground before. Is there really any need for a coach to put in a seed time? Most, if not all times are out on the net somewhere. The results should be submitted to a database and used by meet directors to seed. Not that complicated.

[LCSHSfan]

Isn't there a database like that for Morris County runners?

Of course, if counties like the GMC want to use hand timing and only keep track of the top 6 times, then it will be a little tougher to keep an online database. (And yes, I know the GMC had a problem with the FAT system last year, but wasn't there some other timing company they could have hired to replace them?)

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Isn't there a database like that for Morris County runners?

Of course, if counties like the GMC want to use hand timing and only keep track of the top 6 times, then it will be a little tougher to keep an online database. (And yes, I know the GMC had a problem with the FAT system last year, but wasn't there some other timing company they could have hired to replace them?)

It would make it tougher. However, if the athletes with the atuo times were to get preference, it would force meets to either consider using auto timing, or at least ensure that the results were in a format that could be uploaded to the databse, i.e. the manner in which the sectionals results are posted. From there a formula to compensate for hand versus auto times could be entered.