Fun Facts: Webb v. Aouita Update

[Zat0pek]

Updating this thread: http://talk.dyestat.com/showthread.php?t=27237

800
Aouita: 1:43.86
Webb: 1:43.84

1500
Aouita 3:29.46
Webb: 3:30.54

Mile
Aouita: 3:46.76
Webb: 3:46.91

3,000
Aouita: 7:29.45
Webb: 7:35.07 (converted from 2M)

5,000
Aouita: 12:58.39
Webb: 13:10.86

10,000
Aouita: 27:26.11
Webb: 27:34.72

[pln09]

That's uncanny! :eek:

[wetpits]

In a few years time, Webb will take him in every event.

[Prince]

Webb could smash that 10k time

[xcrunna]

Webb could smash that 10k time
So could Said. I think it's actually maybe the worst one to compare if Webb runs it again. They both ran those marks FTW in their 10K debuts.

[Evilution]

when was the last time webb ran a 5k?

[wetpits]

when was the last time webb ran a 5k?

you spelt web wrong

[Achilles]

when was the last time webb ran a 5k?

He dropped out of the Gaz de France 5k last year so i guess technically that was his last. His last completed one was in 05 though where he ran 13:10 after the WC were over. I think he has only run like 4 or 5 of them and 2 or 3 were at Penn where it was just a sit and kick affair with some b level kenyans for the most part. I think he ran 13:30 at penn or so and then his 13:10 was in a late season race in Europe.

[king99]

To be fair, what years did Aouita run his marks..

The sport has advanced quite a few years since then

3:46.76 THEN was well, 3:46.76 THEN, IT was a ehile ago.

Folks should be running faster now that IS the sport

Alan Webb who I am a huge fan of and is running great is running times not even as fast way later in history than Aouita did.

[Prince]

He's just pointing out how similar the times are not how much better Webb is.

[wetpits]

To be fair, what years did Aouita run his marks..

The sport has advanced quite a few years since then

3:46.76 THEN was well, 3:46.76 THEN, IT was a ehile ago.

Folks should be running faster now that IS the sport

Alan Webb who I am a huge fan of and is running great is running times not even as fast way later in history than Aouita did.

I really don't like that argument, I don't think this should be looked at relatively.

[kingcoe]

To be fair, what years did Aouita run his marks..

The sport has advanced quite a few years since then

3:46.76 THEN was well, 3:46.76 THEN, IT was a ehile ago.

Folks should be running faster now that IS the sport

Alan Webb who I am a huge fan of and is running great is running times not even as fast way later in history than Aouita did.

I believe most of Aouita's best times came in 84-86. I think his 800 time was 84, 1500 and mile in 85 and 5K and 10K 86??

Sidetopic: does Alan Webb have the most muscular shoulders and arms of any miler ever??? Not your typical greyhound???

Picture Ryan, Walker, Bayi, Coe, Ovett, Boit, Cram, Aouita, El G, Morceli, Cacho, Lagat, Ngeny, heck even Scott . . . Webb is like a body builder compared to most of them . . .

[Dragonsoul]

This is great! :)

[Jolly Farm]

To be fair, what years did Aouita run his marks..

The sport has advanced quite a few years since then

3:46.76 THEN was well, 3:46.76 THEN, IT was a ehile ago.

Folks should be running faster now that IS the sport

Dude, tracks are the same, shoes are pretty much the same, training has changed slightly. What are you basing this claim on, evolution?

[pln09]

Dude, tracks are the same, shoes are pretty much the same, training has changed slightly. What are you basing this claim on, evolution?

QFE

Coe, Cram, Ovett, Cruz etc.

The more time passes, the more likely there will be a better record. That doesn't change the quality of individuals, there is just a higher likelihood of one pushing the record up a notch based on probability. Webb=Aouita

[Wizard]

Dude, tracks are the same, shoes are pretty much the same, training has changed slightly. What are you basing this claim on, evolution?

Yea, the evolution of track and field.

While everything you listed is physical, Webb has such a psychological advantage over Aouita simply by being surrounded by more faster runners - an advantage that cannot be seen or measured and must simply be accepted.

[wilson]

Yea, the evolution of track and field.

While everything you listed is physical, Webb has such a psychological advantage over Aouita simply by being surrounded by more faster runners - an advantage that cannot be seen or measured and must simply be accepted.

Like The Force.

[Zat0pek]

To be fair, what years did Aouita run his marks..

The sport has advanced quite a few years since then

3:46.76 THEN was well, 3:46.76 THEN, IT was a ehile ago.

Folks should be running faster now that IS the sport

Alan Webb who I am a huge fan of and is running great is running times not even as fast way later in history than Aouita did.

This from the same guy who...

...said Chris Solinsky was too big to get much better when he was in high school,

...said Ryan Hall was done after a rough couple of college years

...and said last year that Webb would never PR again.

Blah, blah, blahblahblah.

I mean, really, King. Take a look at Aouita's PRs and see where they would put him on recent yearly lists. 1:43, 3:29, 3:46, 7:29 and 12:58 will be in the top ten, and sometimes top 3-5, on about every yearly list in the last decade.

Not sure what your point is, actually. The yearly lists now and the yearly lists from Aouita's day aren't all that different, with the exception of the very top in the 5 & 10. And there hasn't been anybody since Aouita that has matched his range. NOBODY.

[WildcatXC]

Webb will never get close to Aouita's 1:43.86. In fact we may already have seen his career PR at 800, but in any case he will not get below 1:45.

Taken from like the 3rd post in the old thread. Lol.

This is fun to look at, but it will be more fun when Webb's finished. Hopefully Webb has another 2 seconds he can take off the 1500, and we know that his 5k and 10k can be improved. Doesn't really mean much though... if webb can't win at Osaka and Beijing then who cares.

[king99]

The point is, and I am unsure why folks simply CANNOT follow the logic, is that everything is faster bigger better twenty years later.

I actually think it is pretty comforting that a guy improves 7 secs at a mile in 6 years and 4.0 secs at 800. In our country.

It was not a slam on WEbb as putting in perspective marks that were RUN TWENTY years ago.

I said I thought Solinsky was big, He STILL is, and he is ALSO one of my all time favorites, I have also said that a BILLION times, he has gotten better than I ever imagined.

Again you barely talk to me, ask Scotty if I did not say that I thought Solinsky would:

Run faster than McDougal, as he has beaten him almost always

and run 13;15 or better. that IS what I said, NOT everything I say appears on a message board, I know hard to believe, if it did I would be banned anyway.

Ryan Hall see me off line as I have my own views on that.

.

blah blah balh again, show me the post where I said Webb would NEVER PR again, I am a fan WEbb who has been objective, ask Scotty ask anyone.

he struggled, and there were concerns, legit, now it has been proven that they have it right

I tend to deal with what is, not some fantasy land stuff


Again, It was to put Aouita's marks in perspective, it WAS twenty years ago, AND faster markr HAVE been run since, so a lull in productivity world wide, does not change that, Drug Testing does.

[king99]

By the way, I am also one of the folks who has always said Webb was uniquely fast enough to run fast at 800M as well.

And Zat? You always said it was strength, and it is as such, but at 47.x relay in HS, he has a unique athletic balnce of very very good flat speed to go with amazing aeobic capacities.

When you take a HS kid who could run two miles indoors at 8:45 on flat track, and a HS Miler that can run 47.x for a leg at 400, which is about what High quality HS half milers can run in HS 4 x 4's if that.

Then see him as a miler 6 years later, and a 1:43.84 guy, well. It does look like the right combo?

[Zat0pek]

I was a little rougher on you than you deserved, king, and for that I apologize.

I posted out of a reaction to what I saw as needless hypercriticism. You are entitled to you opinion, and I should have just let it go.

[king99]

Check your PM,, I was pissed..I apologize.

Also I did not know Hall was pacing in this 5K. altho honestly I understand the Dobson relationship there, but why?

There could have been others for this, why isn;t Hall racing at all?

He does nothing on the track ran horribly at USATF at 10K, has really only run one good race on the track in two Years

For my liking, hypercitical or not Hall is an up and won, one a year runner.

Just my view supported by fact

4 good to great races in 6 years, really. That is not enough production for my opinion to be changed, does NOT have to be one other person;s shared view.

hall has no superior mark on the track, really Guys like Solinsky have flown by him at 5K

For those who say he is NOT or will not be a 5K runner , fine, but reality is , he was a low end miler in HS, moved up and all the way, way too quickly and abandoning everything in between his 1:51 HS 800 PR and the marathon?


Like I said, JUST MY OPINION.


Webb/Solinsky evenRitz have pumped out performances , all at least 3 in last 6 weeks.

Hall?sorry. One marathon albeit great in a year, as his only work? Of note?

[Zat0pek]

Taken from like the 3rd post in the old thread. Lol.

I've always seen Webb approaching the 1500 from the top down (a strength miler) rather than a pure middle-distance 800/1500 type.

And his 1:43.84 doesn't change that view, despite the fact I thought Webb would top out at around 1:44.0-1:44.5 or so. This is only.16 outside that range.

The 800 has become so soft in recent years that our standards have changed for the event. The critical role of endurance in the 800 has been overlooked and everybody looks to 400 runners for the next great 800 guy. Truth is, historically the best 800 guys have usually been very solid milers as well.

Any 3:30/3:46 guy should be capable of turning an 800 somewhere in this vicinity.

When you have the strength to run 27:34, you can do massive volumes of intervals. In his interview after his mile AR, Webb talked about his strength letting him do what he called "ridiculous" workouts this spring. That's why were seeing what we're seeing from him now.

[king99]

What is the "A" standard for 5K?

Also refernce on Lets run.com that 13:15 altho I think that a bit rough, is the NEW 13:30, as so many guys are near that

a refernce to kind of what I said about guys, should be runninga lot faster than say a Prefontaine did, 34 years ago,

See? I am not only one that thought that!!:D

[jacksparrow34313]

I think it's a bit unfair to say "4 good to great races in 6 years" about Ryan Hall. I know you're saying it is just your opinion that he is not that great, but saying that makes it sound a lot worse than it is. Haven't the majority of those all been in the last year and a half? His USA XC championship would fall into that category. He was the top finisher at XC Worlds for the 12k too, although we fielded a pretty weak team. Still, not a bad race. Then US champ at 20k roads, and AR at the world championship. Not a very big distance, but anytime you win a NC or set an AR you're doing something right, two more good races. 59:43 was a great race, and his race at London was a great race. Since then? Not much. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy about the way he is running either. But saying "4 good to great races in 6 years" is unfair, I just listed 5 or so good to great races in one year. They followed 5 mediocre years, hopefully that is behind him.

If he was really a rabbit in this race, then I'm no longer that worried, which I was when I first saw DNF next to his name. Unnecessary? Yes. But it was probably a good workout for him. From what I've gathered, he's pretty much doing just lots of distance and getting ready for the US trials, and has only been racing this summer to get some fast running in and keep mentally focused. Like I said when he ran that 10k before London, I am going to reserve judgment on his season until I see the race that he is supposedly focusing on. If he bombs at the trials, you'll have my agreement. If he wins the trials in impressive fashion, then I could honestly care less about how he did on the track over the summer. I know consistency is huge to you king, I think it's important too, but not as important as performing really big when it really matters. And the races that I listed as being good to great, notice that three of them are US championship races, two of them are world championship races, and one of them was a major marathon, with a good enough field to be a world championship race. His performances in track championships? Pretty lackluster, no doubt about it.
I've always seen Webb approaching the 1500 from the top down (a strength miler) rather than a pure middle-distance 800/1500 type.

And his 1:43.84 doesn't change that view, despite the fact I thought Webb would top out at around 1:44.0-1:44.5 or so. This is only.16 outside that range.

The 800 has become so soft in recent years that our standards have changed for the event. The critical role of endurance in the 800 has been overlooked and everybody looks to 400 runners for the next great 800 guy. Truth is, historically the best 800 guys have usually been very solid milers as well.

Any 3:30/3:46 guy should be capable of turning an 800 somewhere in this vicinity.

When you have the strength to run 27:34, you can do massive volumes of intervals. In his interview after his mile AR, Webb talked about his strength letting him do what he called "ridiculous" workouts this spring. That's why were seeing what we're seeing from him now.
QFE big time! If high school runners take the example of runners like Alan Webb and Mottram and others, and start making endurance their first priority, I think we're going to continue to see the times that a few years ago excited us from Americans, continue to look more and more attainable.

[bad hammy]

The point is, and I am unsure why folks simply CANNOT follow the logic, is that everything is faster bigger better twenty years later.
bad hammy is definitely bigger 20 years later, but not faster - in fact, far slower. Better is a tossup - I was good then and am good now . . .

;)

[king99]

Jack, like your posting, BUT I disagree

The half is an underraced distance by Elites, and an underperformed one by Americans, albeit I count that as one of his GREAT races

the U.S. Cross Champs? NO, Ritz was very very Ill and has NEVER EVER lost to Hall at XC , but I will give that one

The 13:16..YES I count that

The Marathon, Of course

I almost count his second at NC's cross, as a GREAT one

Counting those othe champs in light fields is fine if you want to.

I would NOT count them ALL as GREAT performances, wins against road racers? Yeah, that is good for road racing.

Horrific showing at U.S> Track 10K

see? if you are using last 6 years, you have to name them all,there are way more of those.

If you looked at the 5K, he had to give way to Dobson running OVER him at 7:25 mark, he did NOT pace all the way thru 3K as alluded to by others.

AS a 2:08 guy, how he cannot run 27:30 on the Track with his tools is beyond me, that's all. And win some, he got crushed in a soft American 10K at USATF

[jacksparrow34313]

Jack, like your posting, BUT I disagree

The half is an underraced distance by Elites, and an underperformed one by Americans, albeit I count that as one of his GREAT races

the U.S. Cross Champs? NO, Ritz was very very Ill and has NEVER EVER lost to Hall at XC , but I will give that one

The 13:16..YES I count that

The Marathon, Of course

I almost count his second at NC's cross, as a GREAT one

Counting those othe champs in light fields is fine if you want to.

I would NOT count them ALL as GREAT performances, wins against road racers? Yeah, that is good for road racing.

Horrific showing at U.S> Track 10K

see? if you are using last 6 years, you have to name them all,there are way more of those.

If you looked at the 5K, he had to give way to Dobson running OVER him at 7:25 mark, he did NOT pace all the way thru 3K as alluded to by others.

AS a 2:08 guy, how he cannot run 27:30 on the Track with his tools is beyond me, that's all. And win some, he got crushed in a soft American 10K at USATF
The road championships, I agree, definitely wouldn't count them as being great, certainly not on the level of the marathon, but very good races, yes I think so, winning a NC usually means you're doing something right. The half-marathon? Disagree with you on that one, whether you count it as a GREAT performance or not, he ran faster than many great US runners have done. Not a common distance, so obviously not on the level as the marathon debut, but still a very good run. I couldn't watch the meet yesterday, since I was traveling (my wcsn subscription goes to waste again!!), so I can't really say on that. Fact is, I don't really know how he went from being a 4:01 guy in HS to not being able to compete on the track. I agree with you, it's bizarre. Maybe it's a mental problem, since he seems to be extremely happy on the roads, he just can't get himself ready to run on the track. Who knows? I'd love to see him running good races on the track, but I'll gladly exchange it for some hardware on the roads in Beijing.

[king99]

I count and counted his half as a GREAT or one of his GREAT performances, I do not count the other road stuff

I would think him running a BIG 5 or 10K would kind of supercede those for any of us fans.




I do not know how you have 1:51/3:42.x HS Underside

Really did nor run that great in college really, certainly NOT at 3K or a mile, even though we agree he is not a miler, he did run a great 5K was second at NC's XC


and skip over every distance right to a half?

To be competitive, he should be able to race down with his talnets very effectively, not win all the time, but with his raw skill set, and a 2:08 marathon, I alos really do not quite understand it.


Shorter/Salazer many more all dropped down to race fairly well at even 5K.. for sure at 10

[king99]

I do think this, he seems to be one of those guys who can run all day at AT, or better, but not well when he goes slightly to more so on the fast stuff side now.

[PF1]

Taken from like the 3rd post in the old thread. Lol.

This is fun to look at, but it will be more fun when Webb's finished. Hopefully Webb has another 2 seconds he can take off the 1500, and we know that his 5k and 10k can be improved. Doesn't really mean much though... if webb can't win at Osaka and Beijing then who cares.

You write it, you live with it. I imagine I'll be living that one down for a while.

The funny thing is that for years I always believed that Webb was primarily a speed guy who happened to respond very well to overdistance work. But then his 800 times basically hit a wall after HS. And he began to race and train more like a 3K guy with range.

In retrospect, here's what I should've considered before being so sure that hhe would never hit 1:43.

1) Since HS he had knocked six-plus seconds off his mile PR, but less than two seconds off his 800 best. And he was one of the fastest HS 800 runners we've ever had.

2) He has only run the 800 sporadically, and it's possible that he has never before had a race where everything lined up just right in terms of comp, pace, and fitness. (BTW that was an almost perfect race by him yesterday).

3) Clearly he and Raczko have had a long-term training plan for his development, probably leading up to 2008, involving him building up his strength and overdistance base. Underdistance events will suffer somewhat during that kind of training, but 1:47 HS speed doesn't just vanish, and very likely his training this year has involved catching up on the speed development that may have been neglected in the past couple of years.

1:47.7 in HS to 1:43.8 six years later really isn't unexpected progress. Having two seconds of that progress show up in a single race is unexpected, but given circumstances probably shouldn't have been a huge surprise.

Believe me, nobody here was more thrilled than me to see that time yesterday. I have been a huge Webb fan here for many years, during periods when he was having enormous portions of cr*p dumped on him in forums like this.

But as big a fan as I have been, I never expected him to be in quite the position he is in now. To put 1:43.8 speed on top of his obvious base of strength and speed endurance is really remarkable. Very few runners ever put all those pieces together like that.

[king99]

I still disagree with the "Not being unexpected"

If he had run 1:44.5, I would not have been surprised, and I know it is ONLY .. .66 ffrom there to 1:43.84

I thought he would go sub 1:45.00 if pacng right, I did not think he would beat a guy that ran 1:44.04

OR run under 1:44.00


Actually when our top 5 10K or top 3 5K threat is our fastest 800 guy as well, it is great for Alan Webb, not so good for the U.S.


our 800M running has fallen so far off the map it is scary.

[pln09]

I've always seen Webb approaching the 1500 from the top down (a strength miler) rather than a pure middle-distance 800/1500 type.

And his 1:43.84 doesn't change that view, despite the fact I thought Webb would top out at around 1:44.0-1:44.5 or so. This is only.16 outside that range.

The 800 has become so soft in recent years that our standards have changed for the event. The critical role of endurance in the 800 has been overlooked and everybody looks to 400 runners for the next great 800 guy. Truth is, historically the best 800 guys have usually been very solid milers as well.

Any 3:30/3:46 guy should be capable of turning an 800 somewhere in this vicinity.

When you have the strength to run 27:34, you can do massive volumes of intervals. In his interview after his mile AR, Webb talked about his strength letting him do what he called "ridiculous" workouts this spring. That's why were seeing what we're seeing from him now.

I agree so much with this post. The 800 by itself means so much less than the fact that it was run by a strength athlete.

You write it, you live with it. I imagine I'll be living that one down for a while.

The funny thing is that for years I always believed that Webb was primarily a speed guy who happened to respond very well to overdistance work. But then his 800 times basically hit a wall after HS. And he began to race and train more like a 3K guy with range.

In retrospect, here's what I should've considered before being so sure that hhe would never hit 1:43.

1) Since HS he had knocked six-plus seconds off his mile PR, but less than two seconds off his 800 best. And he was one of the fastest HS 800 runners we've ever had.

2) He has only run the 800 sporadically, and it's possible that he has never before had a race where everything lined up just right in terms of comp, pace, and fitness. (BTW that was an almost perfect race by him yesterday).

3) Clearly he and Raczko have had a long-term training plan for his development, probably leading up to 2008, involving him building up his strength and overdistance base. Underdistance events will suffer somewhat during that kind of training, but 1:47 HS speed doesn't just vanish, and very likely his training this year has involved catching up on the speed development that may have been neglected in the past couple of years.

1:47.7 in HS to 1:43.8 six years later really isn't unexpected progress. Having two seconds of that progress show up in a single race is unexpected, but given circumstances probably shouldn't have been a huge surprise.

Believe me, nobody here was more thrilled than me to see that time yesterday. I have been a huge Webb fan here for many years, during periods when he was having enormous portions of cr*p dumped on him in forums like this.

But as big a fan as I have been, I never expected him to be in quite the position he is in now. To put 1:43.8 speed on top of his obvious base of strength and speed endurance is really remarkable. Very few runners ever put all those pieces together like that.

My thoughts exactly.

[jacksparrow34313]

I'd like to throw down some numbers to emphasize how big a performance this really is from Webb.

men Under 1:44; times under 1:44; men under 1:43.84; times under 1:43.84; WL
2007: 4, 4, 1, 1. 1:43.74
2006: 12, 22, 8, 14. 1:43.09
2005: 2, 2, 1, 1. 1:43.70
2004: 8, 17, 5, 9. 1:43.06
2003: 7, 14, 7, 11. 1:42.52
2002: 10, 18, 8, 15. 1:42.32

Even in the 2 non-championship years, as far back as IAAF records go, Webb would be in the top 10 of any year over 800 meters. To be able to do that, with 27:34 strength, is HUGE. I know the 800 has been a pretty weak event recently, but Webb is competing with recent people, and there are not going to be very many milers who have run elite times at the 800. Running under 1:44 basically means you've got a strong chance of making a WC or OG final in the 800. With Webb's strength, he'd be fresher than most 800 guys after rounds.

[king99]

For those who though Webb was not fast enough ot that he lost his HS zip or had not progressed.

he split 47.4 in HS I believe

He went out in 49.8x I just split off the vid.

he could have never done that and finished in HS

He is STRONGER and flat speed faster, both.

[KevinM]

FWIW, Webb is the first guy in the all-time HS top-10 in the 800m to dip below 1:44.

Former HSR holder (and still #2 A-T) George Kersh "only" ran 1:44.00, and Jonathan Johnson (#8 A-T) has run 1:44.77. I understand what PF1 is saying that becoming a world-class 800 guy shouldn't be unexpected given Webb's HS prowess at the distance, but given Webb's continued improvement overall, it might not be quite as shocking.

[Scotty]

Coupla things:

I am almost, but not quite as big a Webb guy as Kinger. That said, AW is running 22yrs after Aouita's prime. That is huge. Now, I never liked Aouita. Everyone knows I am a HUGE Coe guy (easily the best IMO), but Said's times are "worth more" than Webb's. Will Webb be faster than Aouita across the board? You bet, and he will be considered just as great a runner. For now though, the era must be considered. Identical times 22yrs apart are not worth exactly the same. John Walker ran 3:49.4y 31yrs ago. Think about it.

Lagat is different. Webb and he are only 8yrs apart. Webb will go by Lagat at every distance except the 1500m, and will be the better runner according to anyone who knows anything about track.

Tracks are basically the same as in 1985. Shoes are a bit better. Slightly faster conditions exist in 2007, but not by much.

[Kalaby]

I believe most of Aouita's best times came in 84-86. I think his 800 time was 84, 1500 and mile in 85 and 5K and 10K 86??

Aouita's PRs came in the following years:

800m - 1988
1500m - 1985
Mile - 1987
2000m - 1987
3000m - 1989
2 mile - 1987
5000m - 1987
10000m - 1986

His 3k WR came late in the '89 season, it was his last WR and one of his last great performances - age (turned 30 a few months later) and injuries caught up with him after that.

[KevinM]

and will be the better runner according to anyone who knows anything about track.


Yawn. That's an Mrr82 tactic. You're better than that, Scotty. Dismissing anyone who disagrees with you about one of the most prolific 1500m guys of all time as "not knowing anything about track"? Gimme a break.

[Scotty]

Good info. Fair enough, it is still a full 20yrs between Aouita's prime and today (87 to 2007). A significant difference.

I do agree with one of the earlier posters; Webb may very well surpass Aouita at 800, 1500, mile, 2k, 3k, 5k, and 10k.

[HINKLO]

Aouita's PRs came in the following years:

1500m - 1985
10000m - 1986
Mile - 1987
2000m - 1987
2 mile - 1987
5000m - 1987
800m - 1988
3000m - 1989


His 3k WR came late in the '89 season, it was his last WR and one of his last great performances - age (turned 30 a few months later) and injuries caught up with him after that.

Put in order of when he set them, it really shows no real pattern of fitness over any given distance. That's really pretty incredible.

[SEAURCHIN]

Coupla things:

I am almost, but not quite as big a Webb guy as Kinger. That said, AW is running 22yrs after Aouita's prime. That is huge. Now, I never liked Aouita. Everyone knows I am a HUGE Coe guy (easily the best IMO), but Said's times are "worth more" than Webb's. Will Webb be faster than Aouita across the board? You bet, and he will be considered just as great a runner. For now though, the era must be considered. Identical times 22yrs apart are not worth exactly the same. John Walker ran 3:49.4y 31yrs ago. Think about it.

Lagat is different. Webb and he are only 8yrs apart. Webb will go by Lagat at every distance except the 1500m, and will be the better runner according to anyone who knows anything about track.

Tracks are basically the same as in 1985. Shoes are a bit better. Slightly faster conditions exist in 2007, but not by much.


I agree with Scotty. The era in which a runner competed definitely has to be thrown into the mix when comparing the all-time greats. There is no doubt in my mind that the same John Walker, who ran a 3:49.4 mile way back in 1975, would no doubt be able to run a 3:44-3:46 mile in the present day based upon faster track conditions, better running shoes, and perhaps more intense competition. The great Sebastian (Seb) Coe was another amazing competitor who always seemed to fascinate me. Here was a guy who won 2 Olympic Gold Medals (Moscow-1980, Los Angeles-1984) and broke 12 world records during the course of a career in which he usually logged only 30-40 miles a week! What a talent he was!

[pln09]

I agree with Scotty. The era in which a runner competed definitely has to be thrown into the mix when comparing the all-time greats. There is no doubt in my mind that the same John Walker, who ran a 3:49.4 mile way back in 1975, would no doubt be able to run a 3:44-3:46 mile in the present day based upon faster track conditions, better running shoes, and perhaps more intense competition. The great Sebastian (Seb) Coe was another amazing competitor who always seemed to fascinate me. Here was a guy who won 2 Olympic Gold Medals (Moscow-1980, Los Angeles-1984) and broke 12 world records during the course of a career in which he usually logged only 30-40 miles a week! What a talent he was!

The difference between now and the mid '80s is insignificant. In the 1500 & 800, I would argue that the competition was superior then than now. Coe, Cram, Ovett, Aouita, et all would all easily be competing with and beating most runners today. Comparing the '60s and now is much different than the '80s and now. The tracks were similar, shoes were similar, and the training was similar. Coe's training was innovative. His mileage wasn't absurd (though I have heard figures a fair amount larger than yours), but the amount of quality would have broken many good runners. Seb was freakish in his ability to handle training.

[Kalaby]

Put in order of when he set them, it really shows no real pattern of fitness over any given distance. That's really pretty incredible.

The guy was all over the map with what he raced and when he raced them (even had a quality steeplechase thrown in there at the end of the '87 season). However, the 1500m/mile and 5k were his two flagship events and were almost always part of his competitive schedule. The move to the 800m in 1988 (at a fairly advanced age for a runner) was the real peculiar move - but he did almost pull it off (i.e. the Olympic Gold) settling for Bronze; though he did take the #1 ranking for the 800m in T&F News that year as a small consolation. Pretty sure all he did in 1988 were 800s with a few 1500m/miles sprinkled in, giving others a chance to win some races at the longer distances.

[SEAURCHIN]

The difference between now and the mid '80s is insignificant. In the 1500 & 800, I would argue that the competition was superior then than now. Coe, Cram, Ovett, Aouita, et all would all easily be competing with and beating most runners today. Comparing the '60s and now is much different than the '80s and now. The tracks were similar, shoes were similar, and the training was similar. Coe's training was innovative. His mileage wasn't absurd (though I have heard figures a fair amount larger than yours), but the amount of quality would have broken many good runners. Seb was freakish in his ability to handle training.

John Walker was in his prime in the mid to late 70's . He was born in 1952; so he was on the downward spiral of his career in the 1980's even though he still put up some pretty impressive times later on in his career. The mile competition in the 1980's was much better than it was in the mid-to-late 1970's. As far as Seb Coe goes, he did in fact claim to log approximately 30-40 miles per week (as was disclosed in a T&F News interview with him back in 1978) with 45-50 mile weeks being logged, however, very seldom.

[king99]

John WAlker ran 3:49.x in 1982 NOT his PR, but under 3;50.00 at age 30, he also ran 1:44.x, he was my all time favorite then, howver a bit unfair also to say he would have done this OR that, in that there were tons of good milers then.

What happnes is, someone find the edge of what can be run, then someone runs faster setting the bar, and then figuring what fractions get you there, that's how it went.

[pln09]

John Walker was in his prime in the mid to late 70's . He was born in 1952; so he was on the downward spiral of his career in the 1980's even though he still put up some pretty impressive times later on in his career. The mile competition in the 1980's was much better than it was in the mid-to-late 1970's. As far as Seb Coe goes, he did in fact claim to log approximately 30-40 miles per week (as was disclosed in a T&F News interview with him back in 1978) with 45-50 mile weeks being logged, however, very seldom.

I was talking more in the context of Aouita vs Webb. I agree that '80s was much better than the '70s, as well as the present day though it seems to be on the rise. '90s were good to.

[jacksparrow34313]

Coupla things:

I am almost, but not quite as big a Webb guy as Kinger. That said, AW is running 22yrs after Aouita's prime. That is huge. Now, I never liked Aouita. Everyone knows I am a HUGE Coe guy (easily the best IMO), but Said's times are "worth more" than Webb's. Will Webb be faster than Aouita across the board? You bet, and he will be considered just as great a runner. For now though, the era must be considered. Identical times 22yrs apart are not worth exactly the same. John Walker ran 3:49.4y 31yrs ago. Think about it.

Lagat is different. Webb and he are only 8yrs apart. Webb will go by Lagat at every distance except the 1500m, and will be the better runner according to anyone who knows anything about track.

Tracks are basically the same as in 1985. Shoes are a bit better. Slightly faster conditions exist in 2007, but not by much.
Agree on everything except for this. He can pass all of his times, but it will take a lot more than that for him to be on the same level of greatness as Aouita. More than just times define greatness, Aouita won gold in the 5k in 84 and 87, and bronze in the 1500 and 800 in 83 and 88 respectively. Webb will never have this many titles, or at least, I highly doubt it...and in a good range of events too! He held world records for 1500, mile, 2000, 3000, 5000, I'm sure of, maybe others. Webb, IMO, is a way way long shot to set a world record in the mile, the event he probably has the best chance of setting a record in of any. Also, from 85 to 89, Aouita lost only 4 races, one to Steve Cram over 1500 by .04 seconds, one was a steeplechase, one was the 800 Olympic final, which not only was well below his primary distance, but he was also injured, and his first outdoor race of the 89 season, a 5k, where he was sick. If Webb ever puts together a record like that, I'd be beyond shocked.

[king99]

some good points by all on this one.

[homeless]

some good points by all on this one.

training has made you quite agreeable :p

[Scotty]

Agree on everything except for this. He can pass all of his times, but it will take a lot more than that for him to be on the same level of greatness as Aouita. More than just times define greatness, Aouita won gold in the 5k in 84 and 87, and bronze in the 1500 and 800 in 83 and 88 respectively. Webb will never have this many titles, or at least, I highly doubt it...and in a good range of events too! He held world records for 1500, mile, 2000, 3000, 5000, I'm sure of, maybe others. Webb, IMO, is a way way long shot to set a world record in the mile, the event he probably has the best chance of setting a record in of any. Also, from 85 to 89, Aouita lost only 4 races, one to Steve Cram over 1500 by .04 seconds, one was a steeplechase, one was the 800 Olympic final, which not only was well below his primary distance, but he was also injured, and his first outdoor race of the 89 season, a 5k, where he was sick. If Webb ever puts together a record like that, I'd be beyond shocked.

Of course, but if Webb runs faster at all seven of those distances, he will win a TON of races and will probably win an Oly Gold or two.

BTW, Cram was a direct contemporary of Aouita. He was 1.0 sec faster at 800, 5tenths faster at 1mile, and was even at 1500 (Cram beat him straight up. Aouita ran 2tenths faster later on, but never beat Cram at the distance). They were also a coupla tenths apart at 2k, never facing eachother.

[jtrain54]

Updating this thread: http://talk.dyestat.com/showthread.php?t=27237

800
Aouita: 1:43.86
Webb: 1:43.84

1500
Aouita 3:29.71
Webb: 3:30.54

Mile
Aouita: 3:46.76
Webb: 3:46.91

3,000
Aouita: 7:29.45
Webb: 7:35.07 (converted from 2M)

5,000
Aouita: 12:58.39
Webb: 13:10.86

10,000
Aouita: 27:26.11
Webb: 27:34.72

A Standards for Oly. Trials:
1:46.50
3:39.00
13:33.00
28:15.00

If he's such a strength runner, maybe he should just quad. it at the trials to see what happens? :p team points baby!

[Kalaby]

Agree on everything except for this. He can pass all of his times, but it will take a lot more than that for him to be on the same level of greatness as Aouita. More than just times define greatness, Aouita won gold in the 5k in 84 and 87, and bronze in the 1500 and 800 in 83 and 88 respectively. Webb will never have this many titles, or at least, I highly doubt it...and in a good range of events too! He held world records for 1500, mile, 2000, 3000, 5000, I'm sure of, maybe others. Webb, IMO, is a way way long shot to set a world record in the mile, the event he probably has the best chance of setting a record in of any. Also, from 85 to 89, Aouita lost only 4 races, one to Steve Cram over 1500 by .04 seconds, one was a steeplechase, one was the 800 Olympic final, which not only was well below his primary distance, but he was also injured, and his first outdoor race of the 89 season, a 5k, where he was sick. If Webb ever puts together a record like that, I'd be beyond shocked.


Very good points. In addition, we have to remember that WCs were held every 4 years back then instead of every 2 years, so there's no telling how many additional medals he could've gotten if they had contested WCs in 1985 and 1989.

[Kalaby]

Of course, but if Webb runs faster at all seven of those distances, he will win a TON of races and will probably win an Oly Gold or two.

BTW, Cram was a direct contemporary of Aouita. He was 1.0 sec faster at 800, 5tenths faster at 1mile, and was even at 1500 (Cram beat him straight up. Aouita ran 2tenths faster later on, but never beat Cram at the distance). They were also a coupla tenths apart at 2k, never facing eachother.


All true, but to be fair, Aouita would've had his way with Cram in any distance from 3k and longer.

[Scotty]

Very true.

BTW, Cram also a full second faster at 1000m.

[Kalaby]

Very true.

BTW, Cram also a full second faster at 1000m.

Again, all true, but I think the intent of the thread is about the impressive range Webb is showing and that it is starting to look eerily similar to Aouita who probably had the best ever 800m-10,000m track range of all-time. Cram and Coe aren't even on the radar from 3k on up so it's not going to be differentials of 1 second or less that they may have on Aouita in the shorter distances when those time comparisons are made.

[Scotty]

I understand.

My contribution to thread was simply that Aouita's times were a bit more impressive than Webb's (currently) because they are 20yrs old. However, I am confident that AW will go faster than Aouita in almost all 7 distances (maybe ALL 7) from 800 thru 10k.

I threw Cram into the thread because they were direct contemporaries and Cram was faster than Aouita at 800, faster at 1000, faster at 1mile and beat him in their race at 1500m.

[Kalaby]

I understand.

My contribution to thread was simply that Aouita's times were a bit more impressive than Webb's (currently) because they are 20yrs old. However, I am confident that AW will go faster than Aouita in almost all 7 distances (maybe ALL 7) from 800 thru 10k.

I threw Cram into the thread because they were direct contemporaries and Cram was faster than Aouita at 800, faster at 1000, faster at 1mile and beat him in their race at 1500m.


First part I agree and understand, but all of the Cram comparisons are pretty much irrelevant in this discussion since we're talking about overall range. If you want to bring Cram into the mix, you need to be even handed and post his 3k, 5k and 10k PRs which are far inferior to Aouita's.

That's the point I was making.

[Scotty]

You are correct. This is a range thread.

Cram was better than Aouita at 800 thru 1mile (the events he actually competed in regularly). Aouita had better range.

[Kalaby]

You are correct. This is a range thread.

Cram was better than Aouita at 800 thru 1mile (the events he actually competed in regularly). Aouita had better range.


Thank you.

[xcmiler245]

Aouita's 800 mark was the race that I saw as the least likely for Webb to break it. Now that it has already happened, I see Alan having the capability to beat all seven of his marks.

That being said, he will have a lot of WINNING to do in the races that counts (rather than putting up times) to even be considered on the same level as Aouitia.

[Zat0pek]

This is the age old "greatness" v. raw time debate. Faster doesn't = "greater." If all we went by were raw times, then Roger Bannister is nothing more than a guy who would barely qualify for NCAA Nationals.

Greatness is measured by titles and records; how one fared against their peers and the performance standards of their time. On that scale, Aouita is off the charts: World records at several different distances, Oly gold at 5,000, Oly bronze at 800, #1 world ranking at 10,000, etc. Webb has yet to sniff that level.

But even on raw time, Aouita has remained without peer in his 800 to 10,000 range. NO ONE has come close to actually producing marks of that quality across such a huge range on the track. (I'm considering only track distance range, which would not include Dixon's huge range from the 1500 to the marathon).

Until Webb. And Webb is just now coming into his prime. I think it is very reasonable that he'll exceed Aouita's marks across the board (assuming he runs another 10,000 later in his career).

I doubt we'll ever see Webb set at WR, but I do think it's reasonable to think that we'll see him score some hardware, beginning this year. The "greatness" comparison will have to wait until Webb's career is over, but the range comparison's can start now.

And man, does Webb have range! Add to it that Webb has made a U.S. World Cross team at 12K and it gets even more impressive. A 1:43 800 guy making a World Cross 12K team? That's just sick range.

[KevinM]

(I'm considering only track distance range, which would not include Dixon's huge range from the 1500 to the marathon).


Agree with all you said above, but think Geb should be mentioned here as well. 3:31 (indoors!) to 2:05:56. Then again, maybe Geb should be a given in almost any of these conversations.

[Zat0pek]

Agree with all you said above, but think Geb should be mentioned here as well. 3:31 (indoors!) to 2:05:56. Then again, maybe Geb should be a given in almost any of these conversations.

Of course, absolutely agree.

FWIW, I think 800 to 10,000 range is a little more difficult than 1500 to marathon range. A lot of good milers put in a lot of miles, and I think it's a little easier for a higher mileage trained miler to produce to a good marathon than a solid 800 guy to produce a fast 10,000 (or vice versa, in Aouita's case!).

That's not take anything at all away from guys like Geb or Dixon, because that kind of range is almost as rare a Aouita's. The difference is really splitting hairs, and I realize that.

[bad hammy]

Even if Webb beats Aouita times from 800 through 10k, isn't there an 8:21 +/- steeple on Aouita's resume?? :eek:

[Scotty]

Even if Webb beats Aouita times from 800 through 10k, isn't there an 8:21 +/- steeple on Aouita's resume?? :eek:

That would mean that Webb beat him in all 7 events that they both ran. That would be pretty decisive.