Announcement of regional qualifier ...

[SteveU]

New York will have NTN regional
10/16/07 Nike announced today that New York will hold NTN regional championship races to determine the two teams that will qualify for Nike Team Nationals at Portland OR December 1. The NTN New York championships will be held Nov. 24 at Bowdoin State Park along with the NTN Northeast Championships.


Opinions?

[Nerf]

I think it's cool that it will be pretty easy to compare NE teams to NY teams based on times on the same course. But also, as westxc mentioned in a post I'm too lazy to quote, why can't feds just act as the NTN qualifier for NY?

[westxc]

I think it's cool that it will be pretty easy to compare NE teams to NY teams based on times on the same course. But also, as westxc mentioned in a post I'm too lazy to quote, why can't feds just act as the NTN qualifier for NY?

it really does seem like nike is trying to kill FLN

[Nerf]

it really does seem like nike is trying to kill FLN

At least they don't have NTN on the same day as FLN...yet.

[westxc]

so what teams will make it to ntn from ny?

warwick and...

[westxc]

shen or queensbury maybe?

im really not that familiar with NY teams this year, but it doesnt seem like there is much depth or quality compared with other years

[watchout]

My opinion:

Great, as long as the teams show up. It would suck if only half of the good teams in New York showed up, or if only 15-20 teams came to the regional.

[g2g4gold]

My opinion:

Great, as long as the teams show up. It would suck if only half of the good teams in New York showed up, or if only 15-20 teams came to the regional.

idk why they cant just have it at FEDS!!!!!!! STUPID!!!!!

[crazygameofpoker]

idk why they cant just have it at FEDS!!!!!!! STUPID!!!!!

What he said. Stupidest idea I have ever heard. Why would teams travel 12 hours two weekends in a row?

[spartanxc]

With all of the changes, has there been a change with the at large bid process also? Sorry if I missed it, but are we still using the points system? Thanks for the help.

[watchout]

idk why they cant just have it at FEDS!!!!!!! STUPID!!!!!

My guess would be something to do with the ruling boards of the NY Interscholastic federation... NYSPAA or whatever.

Running regionals essentially takes the power away from the states to say "You can't pick teams from our state based on meets that we put on". Which is part of the problem that some other states have had.

Again, I really don't think it was Nike's idea to make NYS teams run an extra race just because they wanted more money. They know fully well that doing so will only lead to less support of the meet from that region, and in return less money. So it isn't profitable. And it doesn't make sense in terms of athletics either. So my conclusion is they were forced into it... which is why I think it's ridiculous you keep blaming Nike for ruining everything. When they probably didn't want to do it in the first place.

[minde15]

My guess would be something to do with the ruling boards of the NY Interscholastic federation... NYSPAA or whatever.

Running regionals essentially takes the power away from the states to say "You can't pick teams from our state based on meets that we put on". Which is part of the problem that some other states have had.

Again, I really don't think it was Nike's idea to make NYS teams run an extra race just because they wanted more money. They know fully well that doing so will only lead to less support of the meet from that region, and in return less money. So it isn't profitable. And it doesn't make sense in terms of athletics either. So my conclusion is they were forced into it... which is why I think it's ridiculous you keep blaming Nike for ruining everything. When they probably didn't want to do it in the first place.

i wish i could agree with you but im almost totally certain that it is because of money, why else would they have an extra race? ny has never had a problem with making sure the best teams (or at least ones that will get in the top 4 or 5) get to feds even if they dont make the public state meet. thats not an excuse, i bet nike wanted their cut from feds and the feds directors didnt want to give them a cut since they havent ever had to share it with anyone (not blaming nys here) what they should have done (and im sure coaches and especially runners would have agreed) to raise the price of feds a little to include nike's cut. i know i wouldnt want to run sectionals, states, feds, NTN regional, NTN week after week... takes away from the teams who actually feel state and fed championships are important

[NYrunner]

i wish i could agree with you but im almost totally certain that it is because of money, why else would they have an extra race? ny has never had a problem with making sure the best teams (or at least ones that will get in the top 4 or 5) get to feds even if they dont make the public state meet. thats not an excuse, i bet nike wanted their cut from feds and the feds directors didnt want to give them a cut since they havent ever had to share it with anyone (not blaming nys here) what they should have done (and im sure coaches and especially runners would have agreed) to raise the price of feds a little to include nike's cut. i know i wouldnt want to run sectionals, states, feds, NTN regional, NTN week after week... takes away from the teams who actually feel state and fed championships are important

Mr. Limmer has posted several times (and he is involved in the process) that it was not a money thing. It was a rules issue.

now if only they'll fix that stupid point system

[Rach_the_Sage]

Mr. Limmer has posted several times (and he is involved in the process) that it was not a money thing. It was a rules issue.

now if only they'll fix that stupid point system

It's interesting that the Nike announcement mentions nothing about the rules issue just "well it's possible for us to do this so yay" :rolleyes:

[Sidecar Doobey]

Nike has nothing to gain by finger pointing and getting into a "contest" with NYS Fed and/or NYSPHSAA. If they ever hope to get this right they'll have to work with 'em at some point. Fixing blame will only make things worse.
As far as having an extra race because of $$$ is rediculous.
40 additional teams @ $125.00 =$5,000. That's probably less than half a day's pay for Nike's CEO.

[palimmer]

<<i bet nike wanted their cut from feds and the feds directors didnt want to give them a cut since they havent ever had to share it with anyone (not blaming nys here) what they should have done (and im sure coaches and especially runners would have agreed) to raise the price of feds a little to include nike's cut.>>
Minde15,
That's the 3rd silliest post ever on Dyestat... you're in rarified atmosphere there. NIKE's cut from Feds? Are you serious? The Fed meet barely breaks even and if there is any profit it goes back to the State, what little there is.
This is NEVER about money. If you had graduated a year later and had been to NTN you'd know that money is not part of this in any way. It's sad that someone who has been around as much as you have would say something like that. You know better, or should. :(

[kDo1231]

It's sad that someone who has been around as much as you have would say something like that. You know better, or should. :([/QUOTE]


so then what is it about? there is no need for this meet

[Joe Lanzalotto]

so then what is it about? there is no need for this meet

There is a need for the meet and it has nothing whatever to do with Nike or NSSF wanting to generate revenue. Nike and NSSF have been told thatthe NY state race(s) cannot be used in any way to qualify teams for NTN. It is as simple as that and Nike and NSSF are respecting that ruling and doing their best on very short notice to make this as easy for everyone as they can. They recognzie that there is a conflict and this requires an extra week of running. However, that is NO DIFFERENT than it is for any team in any other state except for California (e.g. New Jersey teams have to run their state meets and then the regional). Also, the conflict with FLNE was not Nike or NSSF's doing.

You saying there is no need for this meet is simply incorrect and you have no knowledge at all of the facts or you would not say it.

[watchout]

i wish i could agree with you but im almost totally certain that it is because of money, why else would they have an extra race? ny has never had a problem with making sure the best teams (or at least ones that will get in the top 4 or 5) get to feds even if they dont make the public state meet. thats not an excuse, i bet nike wanted their cut from feds and the feds directors didnt want to give them a cut since they havent ever had to share it with anyone (not blaming nys here) what they should have done (and im sure coaches and especially runners would have agreed) to raise the price of feds a little to include nike's cut. i know i wouldnt want to run sectionals, states, feds, NTN regional, NTN week after week... takes away from the teams who actually feel state and fed championships are important

Think about this...

WHY would Nike think they would make MORE money, by lessening their public image? (Such as forcing NY Teams to run an unnecessary race and change the way they look at the post season meets in New York, which creates a feeling of "Nike is ruining the sport")

That is DETRIMENTAL to the objective of generating income. Therefore, as long as the Nike execs. aren't stupid (which hasn't seemed to be the case IMO), they wouldn't force that upon the teams.

However, if it is a situation where they are trying to still make it possible for teams to get to NTN from New York, and if the states' high school association gets weary of using their Feds meet as the qualifier, it only makes sense that Nike moves to an NTN-NY Regional race, to ensure the eligibility of the New York teams.

Since we've seen that situation in other states, and since that was PART of the rationale for needing regionals ... one scenario seems MUCH more likely than the other:

A - Following the rules to ensure eligibility and participation (specifically for Nike Team Nationals, not NTN-Regionals)

or

B - Lessen support out on a significant market (New York) which ends up costing you thousands of dollars, if not millions, a year.


<<i bet nike wanted their cut from feds and the feds directors didnt want to give them a cut since they havent ever had to share it with anyone (not blaming nys here) what they should have done (and im sure coaches and especially runners would have agreed) to raise the price of feds a little to include nike's cut.>>
Minde15,
That's the 3rd silliest post ever on Dyestat... you're in rarified atmosphere there. NIKE's cut from Feds? Are you serious? The Fed meet barely breaks even and if there is any profit it goes back to the State, what little there is.
This is NEVER about money. If you had graduated a year later and had been to NTN you'd know that money is not part of this in any way. It's sad that someone who has been around as much as you have would say something like that. You know better, or should. :(

Seems like there's an epidemic going around :D

I'd be surprised if they get that many.

There are 27 teams that qualify for Feds. Maybe 21 or 22 of these teams are "solid", the remainder are filler from weaker associations.

In any case, teams that don't finish in the top 5 or 6 there aren't going to have much incentive to come back a week later to race the same top teams on the same course again, on a (probably) colder day. Especially if they have an individual with a shot at FLNats (Warwick girls, for example).

Of the teams that run in the state meet, but don't qualify for Feds... there might be one or two that feel they deserved to be at Feds and will extend their season 2 weeks to run at NTN-NY.

Teams that don't run in the state meet and don't make Feds... would be extending their season three weeks to run at NTN-NY. Maybe one or two teams, particularly those with young runners, might do this. Whoever out of Liverpool, FM, CNS, Baldwinsville doesn't make states or Feds, for example.

On the plus side... schools with one team in the hunt may well bring their other team along. East Aurora boys, maybe?

I'd guess you'll see maybe 10-12 teams in each race. That being said, I hope that teams don't skip Feds in favor of NTN-NY.

Yeah, I'm just being optimistic...

But I think it would be more realistic that teams skip out on the "lesser" State meet (the Public meet) if anything, as it seems like Feds is seen as the more important meet. Or maybe teams closer to Bowdoin will go to Feds, and teams closer to the other State site will go there and skip Feds. Either way, SOME meet will almost certainly get less participation than hoped... and hopefully Nike will come up with a better solution for all of it next year, although with the scheduling as it stands that will really be difficult...

[BMeylan]

... But I think it would be more realistic that teams skip out on the "lesser" State meet (the Public meet) if anything, as it seems like Feds is seen as the more important meet.

The majority of public school runners and coaches consider the State Class Meet as "the NY State Meet" and refer to it as such. A team that qualifies for this meet can not just opt-out of it and then just run in the Federation Meet ... without running in the State Class Meet, you can not auto-qualify for the Federation race. You must then be selected as an "at-large" qualifier by the eleven sectional coordinators ... without a really good reason (such as a team emergency or tragedy), it's unlikely the eleven coordinators would select any team that opts-out of the State Meet.

HOWEVER ... the Federation Chairman happens to be involve with NTN ... and the Federation Chairman can add teams to the Federation Meet on his own ... This could be very interesting:).

The NY Federation meet is definitely the higher quality race, but it also an optional race with respect to the public schools ... I'm afraid some teams may opt out of the Federation meet to run in the NTN Qualifier. BUT having a race over the championship course, especially the week before, seems like a real good idea to me.

I'm disappointed in the NTN NE-NY Qualifier scheduling of race times ... The best way to compare NE teams to NY teams would be to have the races back-to-back in the schedule, not two hours apart.

[watchout]

The majority of public school runners and coaches consider the State Class Meet as "the NY State Meet" and refer to it as such. A team that qualifies for this meet can not just opt-out of it and then just run in the Federation Meet ... without running in the State Class Meet, you can not auto-qualify for the Federation race. You must then be selected as an "at-large" qualifier by the eleven sectional coordinators ... without a really good reason (such as a team emergency or tragedy), it's unlikely the eleven coordinators would select any team that opts-out of the State Meet.

HOWEVER ... the Federation Chairman happens to be involve with NTN ... and the Federation Chairman can add teams to the Federation Meet on his own ... This could be very interesting:).

The NY Federation meet is definitely the higher quality race, but it also an optional race with respect to the public schools ... I'm afraid some teams may opt out of the Federation meet to run in the NTN Qualifier. BUT having a race over the championship course, especially the week before, seems like a real good idea to me.

I'm disappointed in the NTN NE-NY Qualifier scheduling of race times ... The best way to compare NE teams to NY teams would be to have the races back-to-back in the schedule, not two hours apart.

Definitely agree... it would be nice if they, say, ran the NE boys championship, then NY boys championship, then NE girls championship, then NY girls championship (for example) all in the same block, keeping the genders on the same part of the block as well.

Say...

Small Schools Champs
Unseeded Races
Championship Races
Freshman Races
JV Races

But that's just my opinion.. don't see the reason to try and separate the two meets, just keep them separate races since they have to be different regions.

That's especially important if you're going to base all the at-large stuff off of the regionals. You want the races as close together as possible, so that the conditions are as close to the same as possible.

[palimmer]

there are a number of reasons for the 'break' in the schedule. One is so we have time after the NE Championship to catch our breath and to go over all results and make sure they are absolutely correct. We've seen that in events where chips are used there can be errors in scoring, although it's clearly the best. The awards schedule also benefits from the 'break' with the 2 frosh races. Hopefully we can do the NE awards during that time as it's likely that the frosh races will be light and most people can be at the awards. Having four (4) hot races one right after another might be more than my heart can handle. :) Comparing the 2 Regionals was not my concern at the time... maybe it should be. Seriously, that schedule is not 'etched in stone' and we will revisit it if necessary. By the way, that schedule is subject to revision due to weather related issues. As you may know, the Northeast part of the country can have severe weather. :(
I left out one of the more important factors in scheduling and that is registering the top 4 boys and girls teams. That hour between allows us to do that for the NE......imagine 16 teams waiting to be registered... tons of info needs to be recorded.

[BMeylan]

Definitely agree... it would be nice if they, say, ran the NE boys championship, then NY boys championship, then NE girls championship, then NY girls championship (for example) all in the same block, keeping the genders on the same part of the block as well.

Say...

Small Schools Champs
Unseeded Races
Championship Races
Freshman Races
JV Races

But that's just my opinion.. don't see the reason to try and separate the two meets, just keep them separate races since they have to be different regions.

That's especially important if you're going to base all the at-large stuff off of the regionals. You want the races as close together as possible, so that the conditions are as close to the same as possible.

Definitely agree.

Just got an interesting email; I don't really believe it (I get many bad info emails for some reasons), but just in case and for the sake of controversy.....

The Footlocker NE Girls Seeded Race is at 11:10am (at Van Cortlandt Park) ... The NTN Girls NY Championship is at 1:30pm at Bowdoin ... the driving time between venues is roughly 1 hour 15 minutes (faster for crazy NY drivers) ... Somebody is considering both races since the Footlocker race may be depleted somewhat (not requiring an all-out effort) and a decent 2nd race effort at Bowdoin could be enough! ... They don't want the times changed ... Believe it or not.

I know you can't do it during the season because NY State regulations require a 2-day period between cross country races, but the season is over.

[Rach_the_Sage]

If NY is threatening to sanction all teams that compete at NTN unless they run a separate meet to qualify then I suppose the Nike doesn't have a choice. Although it would be nice if this had realized earlier but oh well. One question I do have though is why can't the meet be held 11/17 and the NY teams could choose between that and the Federation meet. That would probably make the NTN regional the most competitive. If it's the weekend of 11/24 I'd guess that only 3 or 4 of the top 10 actually attend.

[beenthere]

Can you imagine the NY officials losing teams to a race a hour or two later and thinking that is fine? They would do everything they could to keep teams out of NTN in the future. That is not going to happen!

[runfast]

Definitely agree.

Just got an interesting email; I don't really believe it (I get many bad info emails for some reasons), but just in case and for the sake of controversy.....

The Footlocker NE Girls Seeded Race is at 11:10am (at Van Cortlandt Park) ... The NTN Girls NY Championship is at 1:30pm at Bowdoin ... the driving time between venues is roughly 1 hour 15 minutes (faster for crazy NY drivers) ... Somebody is considering both races since the Footlocker race may be depleted somewhat (not requiring an all-out effort) and a decent 2nd race effort at Bowdoin could be enough! ... They don't want the times changed ... Believe it or not.

I know you can't do it during the season because NY State regulations require a 2-day period between cross country races, but the season is over.


Yeah but is hard to just scoot out of the FLNE race after it is over. There is a lot of paper work to fill out if you qualify. You are in the media tent for at least a half hour dealing with the paper work and getting your pictures taken. I think it would be a big risk to your team if you tried to do both.

[watchout]

there are a number of reasons for the 'break' in the schedule. One is so we have time after the NE Championship to catch our breath and to go over all results and make sure they are absolutely correct. We've seen that in events where chips are used there can be errors in scoring, although it's clearly the best. The awards schedule also benefits from the 'break' with the 2 frosh races. Hopefully we can do the NE awards during that time as it's likely that the frosh races will be light and most people can be at the awards. Having four (4) hot races one right after another might be more than my heart can handle. :) Comparing the 2 Regionals was not my concern at the time... maybe it should be. Seriously, that schedule is not 'etched in stone' and we will revisit it if necessary. By the way, that schedule is subject to revision due to weather related issues. As you may know, the Northeast part of the country can have severe weather. :(



Interesting, good to know and good to see the logic behind the decision. Thanks for keeping us as informed as you can!

[backtoback]

Teams are extremely unlikely to skip the NYSPHSAA State meet... for one thing, the travel to it is funded by the Sections (not the schools), so it's essentially free for the qualifying teams. Also, performance at States ties directly into qualifying for Feds. Teams can qualify with at-large bids... but that's up to the discretion of the Section co-ordinators, who would undoubtedly frown upon a team that won their Sectionals but declined to go to the NYSPHSAA championship meet.

Feds will be the event that suffers, if teams decide to take a weekend off.

Edit: Hahaha Mr. Meylan beat me to it!

Only some sections travel together. Some schools travel separate therefore being completely funded by the schools themselves. Even when sections do travel together, the schools within that section are still paying dues.

[palimmer]

Interesting, good to know and good to see the logic behind the decision. Thanks for keeping us as informed as you can!

thanks.. check my edit.... sorry I left that important factor out. :)

[Rach_the_Sage]

Can you imagine the NY officials losing teams to a race a hour or two later and thinking that is fine? They would do everything they could to keep teams out of NTN in the future. That is not going to happen!

Because they will feel much better about losing teams to a race a week later when teams skip their meet to rest up for NY NTN? Somehow I'm envisioning the NY NTN race turning into a dual meet between 2-3 of the top 5 teams in the state.

[minde15]

<<i bet nike wanted their cut from feds and the feds directors didnt want to give them a cut since they havent ever had to share it with anyone (not blaming nys here) what they should have done (and im sure coaches and especially runners would have agreed) to raise the price of feds a little to include nike's cut.>>
Minde15,
That's the 3rd silliest post ever on Dyestat... you're in rarified atmosphere there. NIKE's cut from Feds? Are you serious? The Fed meet barely breaks even and if there is any profit it goes back to the State, what little there is.
This is NEVER about money. If you had graduated a year later and had been to NTN you'd know that money is not part of this in any way. It's sad that someone who has been around as much as you have would say something like that. You know better, or should. :(

i just saw the thread and posted my initial reactions, i was misinformed but it was of my own doing (i heard a message on my phone incorrectly). i dont understand why the state chairmen/federation committee wouldnt allow nike to sponsor/ have their name on the fed meet. that just doesnt make any sense. i guess i was correct in nike and feds bickering over money but wrong in the connotation of the matter. i still dont see why nys would sanction teams that go to ntn bc they qualified from feds, i guess its cuz they would be undermining their great wisdom of not allowing nike into feds. also, why would they say it is ok at first then get mad at nike later? did they really think feds would be an ntn qualifier and nike wouldnt want to have some say in it? hell they could have even had nike tents at the meet and a portion of the profits could have gone to the state. im not saying this cuz it would fix a money solution or anything but just an example of how it would be good for both parties to have had feds be the ntn regional meet.

[mcdougallshen789]

I think that they should take the 2 best overall times of the day (NE+NY) and send those 2 kids to footlocker.

Also, just an observation: It's going to be really hard/impossible to peak for 4 weeks of championships. Makes it kind of a war of attrition if all teams do all teh championhips, or a game of how you pick which meets to compete in