NTN Updates

[Inthe_longrun]

Any word from Yankton? What is the course like, fast, slow, muddy, dry? I would think it is cold and calm, perfect for running some fast times.

Anyone prepared to give those of us not making the trip some updates?

small schools race for both boys and girls must now be in the books, any comments?

The main event starts at 2:00pm. Girls first then the Boys.

[doggler]

Just talked to the Wayzata chappearone(sp). Waiting for awards ceremony to start, he's not sure who's in or who's out, but he did say that at 2 miles, it was a 5-way battle.

I'm heading out in a few. He'll call as soon as he knows anything official and I'll post if he gets back to me before then.

[bismarckxc]

I was told Joash Osoro of Bismarck was the individual winner by 10-15 seconds.

The boys race was very close between several teams like doggler said...that's all I know

[doggler]

1st - Wayzata ~100
2nd - Shawnee Mission NW ~140
3rd - SLUH ~150
4th - Brainerd ~150

[puttytim]

[b]
4th - Brainerd ~150

:eek:

[runfan]

Has anyone heard the results on the Girls side yet?

[Leeeeerrrrroooooy]

HL#2 Dowling Catholic IA 67, HL#1 3-D Running SD (Yankton) 90, HL#3 Roosevelt Sioux Falls SD 95, HL#4 Burnsville MN 97.
that is all that i could find at:
http://www.dyestat.com//?pg=us2007NTNNewsHeartland
It wouldn't show full results

[gymbeam]

Dowling girls crushed the comp by 25 or so. 3-D (Yankton) girls 90, Sioux Falls XC 95 Top 10 runners were under 19:10 with Flood at 17:40 somthing.

[Big Al 2112]

http://www.pttiming.com/raceresults/100116-BC_Final.pdf

http://www.pttiming.com/raceresults/100116-GC_Final.pdf

Find the other races here...

http://www.pttiming.com/raceresults.php

[100 miles]

Has Roosevelt beat anyone this season that might give them at-large points?

[Brianruns10]

Maybe I misunderstand, but is Rosemount even in contention? I'd have thought only SLUH would be eligible, having gotten third overall.
BR

[doggler]

Maybe I misunderstand, but is Rosemount even in contention? I'd have thought only SLUH would be eligible, having gotten third overall.
BR

He/she is talking about the Roosevelt girls I assume.

Obai Hussein around 20th would've made it 1-2 for MN. Other than him, it seems Rosemount ran better this week than they did at state.

[squishthecarls]

He/she is talking about the Roosevelt girls I assume.

Obai Hussein around 20th would've made it 1-2 for MN. Other than him, it seems Rosemount ran better this week than they did at state.


Actually, if Obai was 47th in the team scoring (53rd overall), Rosemount would have scored 140 to SMNW's 141.

[Brianruns10]

Ah, that makes sense. I should have checked the girls' results before I posted. Thanks for clearing that one up!
BR

[doggler]

Actually, if Obai was 47th in the team scoring (53rd overall), Rosemount would have scored 140 to SMNW's 141.

Correct - I had heard he was sitting in about 15th-20th when he dropped out?

[forever green]

Correct - I had heard he was sitting in about 15th-20th when he dropped out?

yeah jeremy said he dropped right around him at the hay bales by the mile mark on the 2nd lap. when i was going through the hay bales he like crawled in from the outside of the course but thats all i saw of him. but yeah for their scorers it looks like they ran better than they did at state

[runfan]

Found the NTN times on mile split...Here are the Girls top 5 teams. Strong performance from Dowling who continues to run better as the season progresses. I noticed Kayla Weier did not run for Dowling who is their 5th or 6th runner. In a rematch from Griak, Katie Flood wins again with the margin of victory nearly identical to Griak. Margin of victory at Griak was 37 seconds, margin at NTN 38 seconds.

http://sd.milesplit.us/meets/26327


1. 67 Dowling Catholic ( 19:03 1:35:13)
1 1 Katie Flood 17:36
2 2 Ashlie Decker 18:25
3 10 Betsy Flood 19:21
4 21 Tanelle Berard 19:41
5 33 Heather Tobias 20:10
6 ( 44) Sarah Spellman 20:36
7 ( 74) Mary Lacy 22:23

2. 90 3-D Running Club ( 19:30 1:37:29)
1 4 Mariah Hofer 18:52
2 8 Megan Hilson 19:14
3 23 Kristin Sternhagen 19:43
4 27 Jade Steinberg 19:50
5 28 Krista Creager 19:50
6 ( 41) Ethelin Cammock 20:35
7 ( 52) Hiley Cammock 20:55

3. 95 Sioux Falls XC ( 19:38 1:38:08)
1 7 Bailey Breems 19:12
2 9 Erin Hargens 19:15
3 14 Megan Brown 19:27
4 25 Seanna Kautz 19:48
5 40 Laura Bauer 20:26
6 ( 46) Hillary Haddorff 20:43
7 ( 73) Caitlyn Crowley 22:22

4. 97 Burnsville Skinn ( 19:35 1:37:51)
1 15 Erica Hett 19:27
2 16 Sharmila Ahmed 19:27
3 17 Alyssa Sybilrund 19:28
4 19 Maria Tinebra 19:30
5 30 Sarah Daniels 19:59

5. 124 Minot (M & M's) ( 19:48 1:38:57)
1 3 Melanie Funke 18:51
2 18 Brecca Wahlund 19:28
3 24 Steph Greer 19:45
4 32 Vittoria Poole 20:09
5 47 Melanah Poole 20:44
6 ( 51) Ashley Brey 20:51
7 ( 71) Kaylie Marten 22:14

[runfan]

Top 5 boys team at NTN. Congrats to Wayzata. Results on Milesplit
http://sd.milesplit.us/meets/26327/results/59324

1. 100 Wayzata XC Club ( 16:30 1:22:26)
1 8 Jeremy Drenckhahn 16:12
2 17 Anders Bowman 16:28
3 18 Danny Ducharme 16:28
4 22 Peter Holmes 16:33
5 35 Andrew Wasz 16:45
6 ( 50) Evan Day 17:02
7 ( 57) Oliver Haugland 17:10

2. 141 Team Swanson ( 16:40 1:23:16)
1 20 Jared Ellsworth 16:31
2 23 Diego Ladron 16:35
3 30 Daniel Munro 16:41
4 31 Aaron Thornburg 16:41
5 37 Sterling Spencer 16:48
6 ( 38) Keaton Jones 16:48
7 ( 83) Kyle Schlicht 17:50

3. 151 St. Louis XC ( 16:41 1:23:23)
1 13 John Clohisy 16:21
2 15 Austin Cookson 16:25
3 32 Chris Murphy 16:42
4 45 Bill Gabler 16:57
5 46 David Kuciejczyk-K 16:58
6 ( 48) Tony Minnick 16:59

4. 155 Brainerd XC Club ( 16:41 1:23:22)
1 9 Thomas Ruttger 16:15
2 12 Luke Delaney 16:20
3 29 Tyler Rose 16:40
4 51 Mitch Lorenz 17:02
5 54 Jimmy Dean 17:05
6 ( 84) Gunner Johnson 17:51
7 ( 85) Joey Doyscher 17:52

5. 156 Rosemount TC ( 16:38 1:23:08)
1 2 Jordan Carlson 15:48
2 24 Chris Massey 16:37
3 33 Tim Kojetin 16:43
4 34 Matt Thooft 16:43
5 63 Stan Drutowski 17:17
6 ( 69) Justin Sawyers 17:22

[KenA55]

Yeah, SLUH lost a key runner as well. That race for 2nd really turned into a doozy, congrats to SMNW for holding it together the best and punching that ticket to Portland, and to Wayzata on a dominant winning effort!

[ran down]

Congratulations to Joash Osoro. He impressed a lot of people very with his determined effort at NTN. He left no doubt that he was number 1. Everyone sent their best and he was able to push the pace to the point that you would have to be willing to die to carch him. Alot of us knew him and believed in him and now everyone does. Congrats to Wayzata and Shawnee Mission and good luck in Portland. Do the midwest proud:D

[borgy]

Congratulations to Joash Osoro. He impressed a lot of people very with his determined effort at NTN. He left no doubt that he was number 1. Everyone sent their best and he was able to push the pace to the point that you would have to be willing to die to carch him. Alot of us knew him and believed in him and now everyone does. Congrats to Wayzata and Shawnee Mission and good luck in Portland. Do the midwest proud:D

false...do the Heartland proud :D

[RunnerJon]

Another notable performance by wayzata in the freshman race, perfect score!
http://dyestat.com//?pg=us2007NTNNewsHeartlandBoys-Frosh

[Future-of->CC>]

Minnesota proved their worth:
1,4,5.

[Big Al 2112]

Minnesota proved their worth:
1,4,5.

Against the teams that showed up, yes. I think that teams like Parkway West, Kickapoo, and Lee's Summit West from MO could have fared just as well.

[xccoach4ever]

Against the teams that showed up, yes. I think that teams like Parkway West, Kickapoo, and Lee's Summit West from MO could have fared just as well.

Maybe but they didn't show up so that is simply conjecture. Teams/individuals from MO haven't shown much interest in competing beyond the season other than Potosi since the rules were slightly amended to allow club teams to compete.

[Big Al 2112]

Maybe but they didn't show up so that is simply conjecture. Teams/individuals from MO haven't shown much interest in competing beyond the season other than Potosi since the rules were slightly amended to allow club teams to compete.

I wouldn't say that they are not interested. I don't know why other teams did not compete. There could be many reasons. My point is that SLUH finished 3rd without 2 of their top 5 runners and there were other MO teams that were not that far behind SLUH. Would they have beaten the MN teams? I don't know. COULD they have beaten them? Yes. Could they have lost to them? Yes. I just sort of disagree with the statement that MN teams PROVED their worth when they didn't have the opportunity to race ALL of the best competition.

[xcrider]

SLUH did not have #2 and #4 I believe. Makes a difference. Think the rankings of the top 5 were pretty accurate.

Not that it matters now.:)

[runfan]

I beleive a centralized location would help the Heartland NTN attendance in the future. No offense to Sioux Falls SD but it is just too far and too hard to get to for many of the teams. If NTN is looking for heavier participation (Championship, Large School, Small School etc.) in the Heartland, cities such as Kansas City, Omaha or even Des Moines are situated better and have better facilities (airports, hotels etc.). I would beleive more teams and fans would attend provided a more central location with a shorter drive.

[borgy]

Sioux Falls is actually pretty centralized... By many of the teams if you mean anyone from the eastern part of MO, then yes, that would be many
the kids from Bismarck had a 440 mile drive to get to SF while anyone from Kansas City area was under 400.
Omaha is only 180 miles from Sioux Falls.
Des Moines is under 300.

[KS Roadrunna]

I beleive a centralized location would help the Heartland NTN attendance in the future. No offense to Sioux Falls SD but it is just too far and too hard to get to for many of the teams. If NTN is looking for heavier participation (Championship, Large School, Small School etc.) in the Heartland, cities such as Kansas City, Omaha or even Des Moines are situated better and have better facilities (airports, hotels etc.). I would beleive more teams and fans would attend provided a more central location with a shorter drive.
Bingo! It looks like Des Moines would be the most centralized major city. Of course you have to get someone there to host it.

I think what must be kept in mind is you can't look at geographic borders. The 3 biggest cities in the HL (by far) are Minneapolis, St. Louis & KC. Here are the Metro Populations of the biggest cities in the HL.

Minneapolis - 3 mil
St. Louis - 2.8 mil
Kansas City - 2 mil
Omaha - 822k
Des Moines - 600k
Wichita - 592k
Springfield MO - 407k
Davenport - 377k (includes some from Illinois though)
Lincoln - 284k
Duluth - 274k (includes some from WI)
Cedar Rapids - 249k
Topeka - 228k
Sioux Falls - 213k (SD population is 775k)
Fargo ND - 175k (North Dakota entire population is only 640k)

[KenA55]

No getting around the fact that its a big region and a regional is going to require travel considerations. Rapid ground travel means it has to be near one of the two major N-S interstate corridors, I29 or I35, since the region is taller than it is wide by a bit. I29 is certainly the more geographically centered option, though I35 can be argued as being more the the population centered option. Sioux Falls is slightly north of center, Omaha slightly south. Sioux City's in between but doesn't have the E-W interstate corridor passing through. The halfway-point as measured on a flatmap with some typical flatmap distortion of a line connecting Minot & St. Louis for example does fall just a bit south of I-90 near the Mn/Ia border, a ways east of Sioux Falls.

Rotating sites annually might be an option that spreads the travel/home field advantage around in some random fashion, its disadvantages I suppose would be the years it goes to an extreme end or corner of the region and really puts the opposite parts of the region under travel duress, as well as the lack of event continuity over the years that a regular host course can provide.

I think possibilities for getting better participation might involve having some funding somehow available to help defray team travel costs, on a travel-distance scaled formula, and simply having the event grow in stature and attract more runners/fans by its own natural magnetism hopefully as well.

But it was a great inaugural event regardless, SF and the event officials did a great job by all accounts, and this should be an event that top-level hs programs give strong post-season consideration towards, and try to work out the conflicts if they feel they want their shot at nats and can be competitive regionally. Kudos out to those programs who put this on their calendar and made the trip regardless of whether they were a favorite or not, regardless of whether they had their full slate of runners available or not- they got to be part of something new & big that will hopefully just get bigger and better, and the event was that much better this year for their presence.

[brentnet]

I thought Sioux Falls did an outstanding job of hosting it. It was a cool course, well organized. I'd have no problem if they kept it there every year.

[KS Roadrunna]

Think about what you just said Ken. Minot & St. Louis in the same sentence. The meet should be in the most centralized location according to population. Odds are, there should be more teams from St. Louis going to this meet than all of North Dakota & South Dakota combined! Yes there are the Bismark's & Yankton's out there, but I think you have to look at the big picture & that's accomadating to the majority.

[TNG]

With only eight regions there is no way around the fact that travel is a necessary consideration and unfortunately a measure of desire and dedication to compete. As someone who sites meets, there are number of considerations to make, beyond a willing and capable host. The choice to go to SD albeit a not convenient one for some is very reflective of their schools' historically strong support and participation in NTN. MO is just recently a player, perhaps in the future there may be a move to bring the meet into Central Iowa and a more central location, but hard to argue with rewarding SD with the first chance to host the HL region.

[KenA55]

Two things-

I have no issue with the meet moving to Des Moines if that's the general consensus on best location.

Locations of strong programs is certainly something that will continuously shift over time, but you have to admit it does very often defy population-based assumptions. It goes beyond population, and the Bismarck/Yankton sentence would be more accurate if it included Fargo/Minot/Sioux Falls as well, the Dakotas have been that strong particularly on the girls side. Mn's strongest boys programs this century have come out of Marshall/Willmar as well, in Marshall's case particularly, well out west.

If we want to keep it reasonably centered and also on multiple interstate hubs, then the options reduce pretty quickly down to Des Moines, Omaha, & Sioux Falls. Unfortunately none of the big 3 population centers in our region are well-centered geographically, population-wise we have some North-South polarity and we are east-centric that way as well, so as I said earlier, Des Moines wouldn't be a bad option if that's where it eventually moves towards.

Sioux Falls stepped up and did a great job this year, and whatever happens in the future, nice work Ms. Rieger & Co., they've earned the applause.

[Wrigs77]

I thought the meet was just awesome. I had absolutely no problem with traveling from the Kansas City area. As many others have said, the meet extremely well run and the course was in top-notch shape. The meet was great for both athletes and spectators alike. I thought the meet was well attended but it was below what I initially anticipated.

I think many people, myself included , were expecting them to stick with the original format of inviting teams to the regional. As a result, I think many teams that may have hoped to participate changed their plans as the season progressed without any news of invites. We ended up bringing 5 individuals (2 boys/3 girls) instead of our teams but for those 5 kids it was a great experience. It was good for our kids to see just how serious some teams take this sport.

I truly believe that the word of mouth from the participants will do a lot to increase the participation for next year. I know I feel lucky to have been a part of something really special. The regional championship format was a great idea and I think this can really help increase the quality and popularity of HS cross country!

[run2win]

Two things-

I have no issue with the meet moving to Des Moines if that's the general consensus on best location.

Locations of strong programs is certainly something that will continuously shift over time, but you have to admit it does very often defy population-based assumptions. It goes beyond population, and the Bismarck/Yankton sentence would be more accurate if it included Fargo/Minot/Sioux Falls as well, the Dakotas have been that strong particularly on the girls side. Mn's strongest boys programs this century have come out of Marshall/Willmar as well, in Marshall's case particularly, well out west.

If we want to keep it reasonably centered and also on multiple interstate hubs, then the options reduce pretty quickly down to Des Moines, Omaha, & Sioux Falls. Unfortunately none of the big 3 population centers in our region are well-centered geographically, population-wise we have some North-South polarity and we are east-centric that way as well, so as I said earlier, Des Moines wouldn't be a bad option if that's where it eventually moves towards.

Sioux Falls stepped up and did a great job this year, and whatever happens in the future, nice work Ms. Rieger & Co., they've earned the applause.

there is no place in des moines capable of hosting a major xc invite. Trust me on this, i go to school there.

[tanilium]

It was pretty well run. Thankfully it _was_ perhaps under attended because I'm not sure there was that much coffee/pizza left, etc.

I'm pretty sure attendance will increase. I mean, it was great Burnsville was there in AA girls, but imo a couple more AA programs would have been nice (EP, LN, etc)? One thing I saw, perhaps more than any other meet I've seen this year, was how happy the participants were. I've rarely seen everyone so happy, regardless of how they performed or finished. Hopefully word of mouth, and posts in this thread will convince more schools to give it a shot in the future.

And even better, was having parents/friends from all over. Overhearing people talking about this runner and that runner and then trying to relate it to their own experiences in their state. That was the funnest part. :)

Highlights:
1) Watching Katie Flood run and Sisson follow. Just impressive to see her run.
2) Explaining to people that "yes, wayzata really is that good, and just wait, it's only the first lap, they'll move up".
3) 5th person from teams getting special recognition/pizza.
4) Getting Matt's autograph and chiding him for recruiting top MN runners.

Confusing things:
1) Different uniforms!

Would be funner things:
1) Longer "whoop de doos"
2) Mud.

[borgy]

what i liked about the course was it is one of the most spectator friendly courses. You can see the WHOLE race by standing in the middle of the infield...and it's very feasible to walk, not run, from one side to the other and see them go over the hay bales, whoop-dee-dos and the start. Makes it easy for the grandmas/grandpas that come out to watch their youngstas run and get to see a lot of the race.

The race will grow no doubt, hopefully in a few years, those lanes will be filled in every race.
As for some of the top MN AA teams not coming, i know there were some injuries/sicknesses for EP and LN which probably played a role in them not coming. Also, a lot of girls turn their focus to Nordic Skiing right away once state is over, although that's what the Burnsville girls are, skiiers first, runners second :eek:

[ran down]

The accommmodations were first class, the volunteers were professional, the course was easy to watch yet challenging. The trip to Regionals is half the fun. Bringing the Nike runners was awesome, the t-shirt exchange was good. The timing bands were better than at the Griak. I understand that it will remain in Sioux Falls for 3 years. The free admission was a surprise, the clothing was nice quality at a decent price. The gift bags were very nice, there was plenty of parking. The spaghetti was super. The talent was great. I hope that every runner in the heartland gets a chance to experience this meet, it is worth all the hard work over the summer.

[the_blixer]

you cant win your argument anywhere you put this meet someones going to complain. A lot of teams had to drive a lot and on top of that organize it without coaches to help. If the MO teams wanted to come out they should until then they shouldn't complain. A 6-10 hour drive is not very long and any cross country athlete who wants to compete that i know would gladly ride in a car while a chaperone drives them out. Now i know expenses and finding these chaperones can be tougher but so what its not like its specific to just MO teams. And why don't teams collaborate and ride a bus together or something. I think the main issue for these teams was lack of planning. Better luck next year

[xccoach4ever]

I thought Sioux Falls did a great job of hosting. The city had adequate accomodations/lodging/restaurants and the city supported the event. I saw the local tv station promote it on friday night (although it was after the HS football scores).
The one thing that could be made better is the website. Some of the information was worded strange and some things were not mentioned. For instance if say you had 5 individuals, that DOES NOT constitute a team because you had to check TEAM. Little things like that can be worked out though.
I don't see St. Louis or KC ever being interested in hosting this. Those cities are too big and are only interested in college/professional events. Very few xc meets are actually held in KC city limits. Perhaps one of the neighboring suburbs could though.
KS Roadrunner- where did you get your population info? I have a 2000 atlas that lists Topeka as 128K or about 100K less than you had. Has it grown that much in 7 years or is mine a misprint?
Sioux City, Iowa would probably be the best center point but I'm not sure anyone there wants to do it. Plus if you have been there, you would know it may be hard to run a full 5k without trying to breathe in the fumes.:(

[forever green]

i think everyone is forgetting how awesome the food was at the huge carbo load, that stuff was amazing.
but yeah the meet was a blast, its fun to drive out with all the guys from your team and everything. the course was really great for watching, like borgy said you can just stand in the middle and see almost all of the race. the hotels were nice and close to the course too.
all in all i thought it was great out there location and everything

[XC Nut]

I wouldn't say that they are not interested. I don't know why other teams did not compete. There could be many reasons. My point is that SLUH finished 3rd without 2 of their top 5 runners and there were other MO teams that were not that far behind SLUH. Would they have beaten the MN teams? I don't know. COULD they have beaten them? Yes. Could they have lost to them? Yes. I just sort of disagree with the statement that MN teams PROVED their worth when they didn't have the opportunity to race ALL of the best competition.

They raced all the teams that chose to show up. Many teams did not have all their top runners, but the beauty of the regional or other top meets is that other kids have to step up. Obviously, some of the teams may have looked great on paper, but did not get it done on the course. P.S. I thought LS West was overrated most of year. Colon is a great runner and their 2 - 4 were good, but their 5th kept them from the top 3 in MO.

[KS Roadrunna]

KS Roadrunner- where did you get your population info? I have a 2000 atlas that lists Topeka as 128K or about 100K less than you had. Has it grown that much in 7 years or is mine a misprint?

I said Metro populations. The Topeka city population is about that, but here you go.

Shawnee County is the central county of the Topeka Metropolitan Statistical Area, an area that includes the four surrounding counties of Jackson, Jefferson, Osage and Wabaunsee Counties. Collectively, the five counties of “Metro Topeka” include a population of more than 227,000 people

http://www.topeka.org/economicdevelopment/index.shtml

Of course you also have Lawrence smack in between Topeka & Kansas City, which is nearing 100k people & doesn't figure into either city's metro population.

[Big Al 2112]

They raced all the teams that chose to show up. Many teams did not have all their top runners, but the beauty of the regional or other top meets is that other kids have to step up. Obviously, some of the teams may have looked great on paper, but did not get it done on the course. P.S. I thought LS West was overrated most of year. Colon is a great runner and their 2 - 4 were good, but their 5th kept them from the top 3 in MO.

Agreed with this. LS West was over rated in terms of the Heartland rankings. But they were a solid team and impressed me that they finished as high as they did at the end of the year. Actually Potosi was a better team but they would have been crippled by their 5th runner being so far back. In fact Potosi had the 3rd best performance at MO state with their normal #2 man ****eman having a bad day. So they really were another team that could have placed well with a great run.

[KenA55]

As things shook out in the close battles for second in our regional, both genders, no at-large points presently exist for any of our 3rd and 4th place finishers there since 2 of 4 auto-qualifiers were previously undefeated, and SMNW was only beaten by Wayzata who's already autoqualified and doesn't need at-large points, and by Marquette Univ WI who didn't run their regional. Similarly on the girls side Dowling Catholic lost to only Greeley West CO who could have that at-large point in the bank if they end up 3rd or 4th in this weekend's SW regional.

There would have been some interesting at-large points gained if:

2. Burnsville
3. SF Roosevelt
4. Yankton

This reverse of the actual close 2-3-4 finish would have awarded Roosevelt a point for beating Burnsville at the Griak. If that point was enough to get Roosevelt in on an at-large selection, then Yankton at the time of the Roosevelt selection would also earn a point for beating Roosevelt at state.

2. Burnsville
3. Yankton
4. Roosevelt

Here Roosevelt still gets that point from the Griak while Yankton has none, and if that point got Roosevelt in then Yankton gets pushed in as well for having beaten Roosevelt in the regional.

2. Roosevelt
3. Yankton
4. Burnsville

Yankton would have a point for beating Roosevelt at state, Burnsville none.

2. Roosevelt
3. Burnsville
4. Yankton

Yankton would still have that point from the state meet, and if 1 point was good enough then Burnsville would get the push-in as well.

Similarly for the boys, just considering the two close teams that finished short runners and therefore fall into that speculative 'could have qualified if...' category- SLUH & Rosemount.

The SLUH team had undefeated status for the varsity squad if I'm not mistaken, so nobody would earn points from any previous wins over them had they taken 2nd here, even if there had been strong MO squads at 3rd & 4th.

If Rosemount on the other hand had taken second then any of the Griak squads that beat them there could have garnered an at-large point, potential points for SMNW, Brainerd, & Pleasant Valley had they ended up in 3-4.

And in that last scenario, then if SLUH is still holding down 3rd with one of the point-earners in 4th, and that point ends up being good enough for entry, then SLUH would get the push-in as well.

It's interesting that a reasonable scenario exists that could have potentially drawn two HL boys squads into the NTN on at-larges if points end up being rare nationally. The rest of the country would have expressed a very audible groan I strongly suspect, and it may have signalled an end to or at least an overhaul of the at-large points system had everything played out that way.

Our girls squads on the other hand are IMO more prominant nationally, and the groaning would have been more localized I suspect to certain particular strong regions.

But as things stand we have no at-large points for the 3-4 regional teams either gender and the only hope for the very good SF/Burnsville squads in particular is that at-large points end up being a very rare commodity around the country, and more subjective judgment comes into play for at least some of those slots.

[Hawkeyerunner23]

Des Moines Ntn Heartland 08 Ftw!!!

[runner314]

So does SLUH have any chance at all??

[Wrigs77]

Des Moines Ntn Heartland 08 Ftw!!!

The 2008 Heartland meet is already scheduled to be in Sioux Falls. They are also going to have a pre-regional meet on September 20th.

While we are on the topic though, Ames has an awesome course. That would be a good place for future Heartland meets. But I really liked Sioux Falls, they did a great job.

[KenA55]

So does SLUH have any chance at all??

Well maybe the best way to put it is that while they're not absolutely mathematically eliminated at this point, it's an extremely loooong shot that any HL boys team not already in on autos is going to get strong consideration for an at large, not having any at-large points. Some teams will likely have some points, don't know how many yet, no way to know until all the regionals run. And even if some teams get in without points, the perception, and there is some truth to it IMO, that our region doesn't have nats top 10 kind of strength this year for boys teams will almost certainly have them picking elsewhere. That's how I see it, and I think most would agree that it would be quite a surprise if an at-large went to the HL this year for the boys at least.

[XC Nut]

Well maybe the best way to put it is that while they're not absolutely mathematically eliminated at this point, it's an extremely loooong shot that any HL boys team not already in on autos is going to get strong consideration for an at large, not having any at-large points. Some teams will likely have some points, don't know how many yet, no way to know until all the regionals run. And even if some teams get in without points, the perception, and there is some truth to it IMO, that our region doesn't have nats top 10 kind of strength this year for boys teams will almost certainly have them picking elsewhere. That's how I see it, and I think most would agree that it would be quite a surprise if an at-large went to the HL this year for the boys at least.

Well said. SLUH or other Heartland at-large teams will probably not get invites.

[KS Roadrunna]

We'll obviously have to wait on the regional results, but I think the SW & MW are lead candidates for at-larges this year.

there is no place in des moines capable of hosting a major xc invite. Trust me on this, i go to school there.

Not directly in Des Moines, but as Wrigs said.... Ames (just to the North on I-35) is perfectly capable of it.

I'm sure Sioux Falls does a great job with this, but I still say if they want max participation they should bring it Southeast a bit. How would the Northerners like it if the meet was hosted in Springfield, MO?

Also, with this new Pre-Regional. What sort of impact will this have on the depth of top teams attending Rim Rock & Griak? SMNW for example only races every other week during the regular season.

[borgy]

there's a huge difference b/t Springfield and Sioux Falls...
Sioux Falls is way more centrally located than Springfield
Springfield would be comparable to Bismarck hosting the meeting, but not even close to Sioux Falls..
Sioux Falls would be more comparable with Lincoln Nebraska IMO

[KS Roadrunna]

Actually I'd say Sioux Falls is comparable to Kansas City (St Joe at the very least). Oh well this is evidently pointless to even complain about since the regional will be in BFE for the next 10 years anyways.

[KenA55]

LOL, I finally realized what BFE stands for! yeah, I know I'm slow:D