Coaching or lack of

[marathonman]

Been checking out the folks who submit to Dyestat and appreciate the love for the sport. Those of you who are involved with quality programs and dedicated coaches should consider yourselves lucky to have the extra motivation needed to get the most out of this sport. There are programs, unfortunatley, where the coaches treat this sport like an extra curricular activity and rob the school of a pay check.
In Sussex County, for instance, most of the coaches are a joke. They do not treat this sport with any kind of commitment. Don't know the last time most of these schools had a Saturday workout.
At most of the dual meets, the coaches are absolutley oblivious to whats going on. They are usually talking to other folks, not paying attention to their athletes. Yes, athletes who are committed will get the most out of this sport by doing the extra work needed, however, when a culture of a historically bad work ethic is the norm, it is hard to convince kids what is needed to get the most out of themselves.
Yes, high school athletes should have the desire irregardless of who is coaching them, but it should also be the responsibilty of the High School Administraition to put individuals in charge who are truley commited to the sport.

[78Champ]

You are correct. It is the administrations responsibility to hire the right people for any program. If in fact this is an issue that many on your team feel strongly about, the captains should go, as a group, to the AD and explain your feelings. If the AD does not take you seriously then the parents should go see him and on up the command chain...

Of course, if this is really only about you and you alone not getting along with your coach, that is a different story.

JW

[DublAK2]

I had 6 different coaches in 4 years of highschool. The coaches are just teachers that want to earn a couple extra bucks. I had to train myself and run on my own. It sucked.

[Paramount]

It's kind of funny to find out years later that my very nice HS coaches really had no idea what they were doing. Good guys but not really running coaches.

Of course, HS coaching is one reason that a lot of good or even just okay runners blossom into real talents when they go to college and start getting top notch coaching.

[quakerxc]

Just a warning, this is pretty long.

I had a coach frosh-junior year that had coached there for over 30 years (nicknamed Wally). He coached the XC team to two state group titles in that time. It nearly broke my heart when he told me he wouldn't be around for my senior year. We inherited the middle school coach, a younger guy (about 30) who ran sprints in college. I thought it would end up being a joke, so I started doing some serious research on training. I spoke with him a lot about the kinds of workouts we would do. He was also doing a lot of research on training and the workouts he gave us seemed to make sense. That year, despite moving up to group 3, we almost made groups (6th place by only a few points -- we had been 5th in north 2 group 2 the year before). But here's the thing, we improved our team average on Warinanco by about a minute! (I only improved about 30 seconds, so the improvement of my teammates was even more so)

He was not hired for indoor since we already had a coach, but since he was going to be coaching outdoors, he volunteered to help out indoors. The head indoor coach was pretty experienced and the younger coach learned even more from him. The training schedule they formulated for me indoors worked out wonderfully and I was PR'ing left and right (I set 4 indoor school records that season). By outdoors he kept the great workouts coming. Some things I didn't agree with, but it turned out those things were some of the most important towards my development. I improved my 3200m time by 40 seconds that season. I left the school 100% satisfied with my senior year running and thought everyone would continue to improve greatly under this new coach. He focused his attention evenly over everyone. I only got "extra" attention after I qualified for groups, MOC, etc. And as I stated earlier, the average improvement of my XC teammates was well over a minute (we were 3rd in the SCIL that year, only 2 points out of 2nd).

However, later in the summer, I found out he would not be returning for the next year. He had taken a much better paying teaching position in another district. His replacement as head XC coach? A football player (ugh). They would play football for practice once or twice a week. They would occasionally do 3 mile runs. The training was a total joke and it showed. They placed last in Morris Counties that year (although we're in the SCIL, we are physically in Morris County, so we get to compete in both). I think after that, Byron Collins started helping out (perhaps starting in outdoors that year -- it's so hard to keep track of all these coaching changes). He's a good guy and seemed to know what he was doing. I believe he coached XC that next fall but left shortly after for personal reasons (I think he still coaches indoors and maybe outdoors at Morris Knolls). Back to square one. I forget who coached outdoors that year. The following year in XC a young girl (22ish I think) who ran semi-seriously in college took over as head coach. The results were slightly better than the football coach's from 2 years prior. This past year, the 6th coach in 6 years was a girl who ran for the school in the mid-90s. Nice girl and a fairly decent runner herself, however results were pretty subpar again. Apparently keeping the kids motivated was a huge problem and a few quite talented kids ran below expectations. Who knows what next year holds, but I'm guessing it won't be the end of the state groups appearance drought (before my senior year I don't think there was a team under Wally that hadn't made groups -- as I've said, we ran valiantly at sectionals my senior year and were extremely close).

I don't know a ton about the other SCIL schools and their coaches, but I'd imagine scenarios like this aren't too uncommon. I know that Corcoran from Pope John has done a truly fantastic job over the years (and he's a great guy also). It's been quite some time since they haven't won SCIL in XC. They are frequently an MOC team qualifier, usually finishing in the upper half of those teams. The Vernon coaches were also a bunch of great people and good coaches. Being group 4, they have a larger group of people to work with, but they've produced some pretty good 400m, 400h, 800m, 1600m, and 3200m guys over the years. The guy who used to be at Wallkill was pretty good as well and a nice guy. Sparta coaches have also done very well with not a whole lot of guys (Molski, Bruffy, Hedderich to name a few have done well). The other schools in the league would have an occasional good runner or two, but nothing great. I can not judge whether this was just lack of talent or bad coaching.

However, what I'm guessing is happening is that since most of the SCIL schools do not have great running traditions, and the district does not pay very well relative to neighboring teaching districts, it's hard to a) attract coaches/teachers and b) keep them once they're here. This is pretty much the problem at Jefferson. As the original poster said, they're often just teachers looking to make a little extra money (I stress "little" here).

To the original poster: You probably don't go to Pope John since they have a great program. You probably don't go to Vernon since I think they're still running fairly well. Probably not Sparta. Definitely not Jefferson (I know no one currently there cares enough about running to complain about it here). I'm guessing you go to one of the remaining schools, Lenape Valley, Hopatcong, High Point (probably not this one though -- just a guess), or Newton. I'm leaning towards Hopatcong or Newton though, just on a hunch. Am I right? PM me if you don't want to make it public (or if you don't want to say, just respond here saying that). Either way, good luck with your running.

[marathonman]

Thanks for the feedback.
No, 78Champ this is not a personal gripe between me and the coach. Actually, he is a very nice guy. Just running an extremely laid back program where kids are leaving a lot slower then when they came in.
In the SCIL, beisdes Pope John, the theory for a successful season is winning more dual meets then you lose. Most of these coaches do not get that most of the good state youth running programs, i.e Transey East, Den of Lions, etc, can compete successfully in the SCIL, especially in Cross Country.
There is no excuses for coaches to be consistently late for practice, to not have practice because of rain, to never have Saturday workouts, to be totally uninvolved during meets, and to most of all, provide absolutley no motivation. Yes, motivation should come from within, however, when the coaching is very laid back, it is very easy for kids to think that is the norm. It is the easy way out.
The athletic directors up here are very invovled with the wrestling and football programs. To unseat coaches who have been there for 20 years only creates more work for them. As a youth coach, I constantly preach to the kids that this is a big time sport, however, this is totally undone by many high schools.
I just wish these coaches would look themselves in the mirror and decide if they are truely working in their athletes best interests.
As youth coaches who provide feeder programs to area high schools, you have to hope that your runners remember the mindset and work ethic needed to succeed when they go off to high school. As a parent though, you also want to know that the person who is entrusted in bringing out the best in your kid, truely has the desire to do that.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Marathonman,


I don't see this as just a Sussex Co issue. I think it happens all over. For YEARS coaches who didn't know any better were transfixed on the dual meet records. That hasn't changed in a lot of places, not just the SCIL. Lots of times around Bergen and Middlesex counties, the two places with which I am most familiar, you get the football coach who does track in the "off-season". But let's face it, that is to be expected when track is what it is, popular to a point but harder work than a lot of other sports to compete in and coach. The stuff you are saying is what I saw when I was in high school and college a while ago. It's not new, except that now there is more competition for athletes than there ever was. A strong coach is a magnet, a draw that "creates" a program. When s/he moves on, the "program" disintegrates. Sadly with fewer and fewer college programs, there may be fewer qualified and dedicated coaches who love the sport in the future, since we do not have a developed club system as they do in the UK (not that they are such track super powers).

I know that it is inconceivable to me that so many large schools have poor track teams. ALmost anyone who cared with any level of expertise should be able to produce SOMETHING from the talent in those schools.

[bergenxctcoach]

Today, there are fewer athletes willing to expend the effort, over time, to see what potential they may have. If you then add a program that has expectations such as practice 6 days a week, (optional sunday/morning runs also), training and competing consistently hard, you have reduced the pool even more. We haven't even discussed the other sport's coaches, who demand pursuit of only that sport all 3 seasons, with threats of starting positions being held over athletes heads.

Every year we have several very talented athletes that won't join our teams because of these reasons. This has become more pronounced in the last couple of years. Also, we have kids that start/sit the bench on the Varsity level on absolutely pitful teams, and would rather that, than contributing to a consistently successful program because it's too hard.

So Marathonman, there's lots of frustration to go around, for both coach's and athletes.

[marathonman]

If there is frustration on a coaches side, thats good, it means he cares. You can only work with the athletes that you have out there. It is the coaches that don't care, or are not motivated, that concern me. You can absolutley sell this sport to kids. But you have to treat it more then just like an extracurricular activity.
We all need to continue to be creative in the way we move forward to motivate and bring this sport the proper respect it deserves. It all begins with the coaches. We have to provide the proper culture.

[dwacox]

[QUOTE=marathonman]Thanks for the feedback.
Most of these coaches do not get that most of the good state youth running programs, i.e Transey East, Den of Lions, etc, QUOTE]

Whoo-hoo :D

[The Savage]

Coaches make all the difference. How can a high school runner possibly know what to do to make themselves better without someone teaching them who has experience in the sport. I just so happen to be lucky enough to have great coaches and teammates that I couldn't possibly understand the pain some kids go through. I could see why some kids would choose a private school (good in athletics) over a public school on the downfall and lacking enough funds to be successful. It's a real bad problem but coaches with the right motivation, attitude, and knowledge can really get something good out of their athletes. It just seems harder now than ever to get athletes that are motivated enough to come out for the hardest sport there is. For those feeling unmotivated by coaching, keep working hard because there is always something more to accomplish in this sport.

[Goingthedistance]

Marathonman:

I know of what you speak. I know of at least one potential XC MOC caliber kid who trains for K_ in Sussex County and has to make up his own workouts.

I know another former 8th grade 4:55 miler (not from Sussex Co) has had a different HS coach for the last 5 seasons. His mile time is worse this year than in 8th grade and he went from a 16:30 5K runner to ~18 minutes this year. (Running for dual meet points to keep the team undefeated while sick). You would think the coach would realize something was wrong. (But then again, it was a new coach for that season - happened to be the middle school track coach being bumped up to the big league!). When he indicated he was having breathing problems the coaches told him on at least one occasion to "put some vicks vapo-rub on"! The illness not only screwed up the XC season, but he needed all of indoor to recover. This kid's been dubbed a 3200 M runner from the start and does not run the same speedwork he did in 7th and 8th grade. In fact, he'll be stuck running just the 3200 during dual meets (to gain points) rather than to double 1600/800. Other kids...the ones that are improving, run these doubles. Do you think there is a link? When dual meets are your speed work sessions...the kids that run the 1600/800/400 develop better than the kid that just runs the 3200?! Imagine this week....Monday- he ran 3 miles easy and 3x200 in 31 with all the 1600 and 800 guys. Then on tuesday the 1600/800 guys all double during a dual meet and he runs just the 3200. What the heck did the 3x31 sec 200's buy him? That's the only speed work he is seeing? I know some coaches that would not do this to up and coming freshmen or sophomores.
Here's the real problem...complain and you get dubbed a problem person. Meanwhile you watch the kid lose confidence and stop caring. Some of these kids are smart enough to know when they are getting screwed. They eventually get tired of it.

[GeorgieTheK]

Marathonman,

Lots of times around Bergen and Middlesex counties, the two places with which I am most familiar, you get the football coach who does track in the "off-season". But let's face it, that is to be expected when track is what it is, popular to a point but harder work than a lot of other sports to compete in and coach.


One of the greatest coaches this country (and the state of nj) has ever produced was hired as a football coach. He is a great coach because he wanted kids to succeed at whatever it was they were doing - track, or otherwise. He took the time to learn the sport - and it's certainly not rocket science.

I've never bought the argument that track is harder work than other sports. It's different work, and therefore can be intimidating to a coach or even an athlete, who just tries to pick the sport up. Other sports have rules to follow, and once you know the rules, you can practice on your own. But track has very few rules - and all the practicing in the world won't make a difference if you're doing the wrong kind of practicing.

Good coaches in any sport are hard to find.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

One of the greatest coaches this country (and the state of nj) has ever produced was hired as a football coach. He is a great coach because he wanted kids to succeed at whatever it was they were doing - track, or otherwise. He took the time to learn the sport - and it's certainly not rocket science.

I've never bought the argument that track is harder work than other sports. It's different work, and therefore can be intimidating to a coach or even an athlete, who just tries to pick the sport up. Other sports have rules to follow, and once you know the rules, you can practice on your own. But track has very few rules - and all the practicing in the world won't make a difference if you're doing the wrong kind of practicing.

Good coaches in any sport are hard to find.

George, I agree that you can find exception to every rule. The coach about whom you write obvisouly had an interest in coaching, not just coaching football. I was talking about people whose primary objective is football who do track coaching on the side. Big difference in my mind.

[marathonman]

This sport is so hard to reach full potential, but it is so easy to screw a kid up. Occasionally an athlete will shine by training on their own, with their own workouts, however, that is the exception. That kid has to be totally focused, and also be given allowences by the high school coach, to do their own routine.
You want to get kids out to the high school sport, and have these kids succeed, its simple, show an interest.
Here in Sussex County, the middle school programs thrive. All it would take would be some effort by the high school coaches to get their butts out to a middle school meet, introduce themselves to some of the kids and SHOW AN INTEREST. We lose so many of these kids because no one at the high school level has ever tried to sell the sport to them. Make these kids feel special.
There are so many dedicated coaches thru out the state who really love this sport and want kids to succeed. However, there are also so many coaches, who go thru the motions, do the bare minimum, and rob kids of getting to a higher level in this sport.
Coaches have a lot more power and responsiblity then they realize. Either do it right or get out. Perhaps school systems should start allowing those who have expertise in the sport and have the time to coach, to do so, instead of having the English Teacher do it because he is already at the school.

[XCguy]

As someone who coached in both the Iron Hills Conference and the SCIL I have to agree mostly with marathonman, the quality of coaching in the SCIL is very suspect, to say the least. While there is always may be inexperienced or lackluster coaching in high school XC and track, the coaching in the SCIL is horrible, with a couple of notable exceptions! And as someone who graduated more than 20 years ago from a NJ high school, I have noticed that the work ethic of some the athletes is not what it used to be, much of the fault lies with the coaches. If they were knowledgable, had a commitment to the program and made it fun for the kids, maybe the athletes would work harder. Instead you have these coaches that are there just for a paycheck and could care less if the athletes improve or develop a love for the sport. Much of the fault for this also goes to the AD in these schools too, because they don't care all that much about what happens in XC and track, they are much more concerned about football, basketball, etc.

[king99]

I think coaching very important, but to address a couple of things. As a young runner with today's resources available to you, i.e. Dyestat, other wed talk sites, Jack Daniel's books, etc. I find it puzzling how some (not you necessarily) blame others when the formula is NOT that hard especially early on.

Run, then run some more, then as you improve run some more.

Anyone who thinks running 3 miles and 3 x 200 is BAD coaching, should be taking some matters into their own hands at this point and running on their own. More!! period.

Today in society we are too quick to point this way and that, I guarantee any guy/gal complaining is not running nearly enough to even think about over training.

If you are a soph, and not improving and think you are not working hard enough, guess what? You probably aren;t.

If you not running at least 40 miles a week,as a HS junior, as a distance runner with long run of 7-8 miles,I can say one thing, you certainly aren;t overtrained.

You think CBA, York, etc are good by accident?

I think not.

Before folks are too quick to criticize, there are very few kids that will do the work required to be great, they can say they will, but, if half these guys trained as hard as some, they would either quit, OR dare I say it..improve mightily!!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

King, I agree with your overall point about there existing a lack of accountability in many places today. Having said that, I remember (ok, barelY!) when I was high school soph. I know that I could no more have put together an effective training program than I could have aced an advanced Calc exam. It is not too much for high school kids to expect that their leaders - teachers, coaches and parents - actually have a clue as to what they are doing. Too many not only do not, but they do not make the effort to learn when it is clear that they need to.

I cannot point to the "youth of today" as "the" problem with respect to this topic. There are many factors at work here, but as othes have noted, those that want to learn and do a good job coaching and motivating kids will do it. The others will simply collect a paycheck.

[LOHAD]

Hey....watch it...I am an "English Teacher who happens to be in the building"
:)

[Decaf]

The hardest thing about being a good high school kid on a lackluster team is going to practice. When I was in high school, my track coach was a great recruiter and knew a lot about sprints/field events. Often his distance workouts involved running for 30 minutes then doing some 400's in 80 (every day). I had somebody close to me that knew exactly what I should be doing, so I was stuck in a tough spot. My track coach was a good coach in terms of recruiting and getting you jacked up for meets, and practices were finely tuned. I could not go off and do my own thing. Respectfully, I did everything he said and often spent practice helping my teammates improve. After practice, I would hammer mileage. I was running between 70-80 miles per week really hard (though i counted everything as 7 minute pace, i think something georgetheK taught me) and less than half of that came during practice. I ran well and my team got better (7th in the shore conference in XC on year). The key to that success was accepting the program for what it was. I enjoyed being on the team and enjoyed each practice, but I also added a lot of my own work.
King, I agree that it is not rocket science, but I disagree that a kid should go to daniels, et cetera for info...the more a high school athlete thinks, the worse he runs. A college coach can help with the scientific stuff. If i had to do that on my own, I would not have been able to it. Suppliment practice with your own running...KIS - Keep It Simple.
i am sure we could start a discussion about how to accomplish suppilmental training.

lohad - weren't you a XC coach that happened to be able to teach English?

[marathonman]

King, As a parent or a youth coach who is taking a back seat to the high school cross country coach, try telling an adolescent female that she needs to be doing more, or different kinds of work. Yes, there are girls out there who will train more, independent of the team, but that is not the norm.
If proper work ethic is not preached, and proper motivation not given at the high school level, unfortunatley, lots of times, what was tought to them as a youth runner, goes for naught. Yes, if kids want to get better they should run more and devise better workout plans. Try telling that to most 16-17 year old girls who have been taught by their current coach something different. Yes, you could blame the kids for not having that self motivation, but this is a hard sport, and if the authority figure in charge of you for 4 years is preaching a different tune, many times kids buy into the example their coach is setting.

[king99]

decaf, what I meant by Daniels reference was , NOT follow it..hell I can;t even figure some of the stuff.

But to use things as guide..there is enough info out there to at least know if you're running enough..or not

[78Champ]

marathonman,

More to your point about what can be done to improve the situations at certain schools.

To facilitate change, two groups of people can try to achieve this. First being the parents (hopefully there are track knowledgable ones in the group) and second track alumni. Most of the time parents get the label of troublemakers, but alumni who express a genuine concern for a program can help.

If these groups go to the AD he/she has two choices. Do nothing and risk them going over his/her head or take a long look at the situation and see it for what it really is.

Get the people involved and over time things should get better. The vast majority of the time the district will hire only within the district. Seek out the teachers in the school system who know the sport and get them involved, at the middle school level first if necessary. Try to get the "heir-apparent" onto the coaching staff at the HS level so it becomes obvious to everyone who should be coaching in the future. Things may take a few years to completely resolve, but you will see movement in the right direction if you are paying attention.

JW

[78Champ]

To the original poster: You need to stop wasting your time complaining on a message board and try to do something about it. Running is not rocket science.

runinstripes,

See my post. My take on his situation is that he, himself really has no standing to go to the people in decision making positions, but he can take my suggestion and activate the people that can get the ear of the right people.

JW

[marathonman]

JW- Thanks for the input

Runninstripes- If I choose to voice my concerns with regards to an issue that I think is important and holds kids back, I will do so. Considering that you have no idea as to what I do and have done to try to remedy this probelm, perhaps you should just hang out on another thread.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

decaf, what I meant by Daniels reference was , NOT follow it..hell I can;t even figure some of the stuff.

But to use things as guide..there is enough info out there to at least know if you're running enough..or not

The Daniel's stuff is great - I follow it like religion, which means some of it is simply done on faith that he knows more than I do.

[king99]

marathonman, a bit harsh on the young runinstripes, but you are correct..I said almost same thing but was not scolded ;)

first of all , there is a reality that needs to be addressed, how bad does the runner want to be good or great.

I was approached not too long ago, by someone, asked about training. I said , that said runner did not run nearly enough mileage to be great, and was aerobically deficient.

The response to me , was "so you're a high mileage guy? I said , I guess, if you think 35-40 is high, for this particular person. I was not consulted again.

So be it.

Remember it's all perspective. The runner has not run anything substantial this entire year, not in Indoors or so far outdoors, my guess is that, there was/is probably an injury, but also a gap, between what the runner really wanted to do, and what the expectations of others may have been.


This IS the bigger issue, no one is guaranteed greatness, many kids today ,and I see this often, want to know the result before they actually execute the plan, this goes to a lot of disciplines, not just running.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

To the original poster: You need to stop wasting your time complaining on a message board and try to do something about it. Running is not rocket science.

I'm surprised at your interpretation of the purpose of the original post. I think this has been a very productive (interesting) thread. I don't read complaining anywhere.

[78Champ]

marathonman, a bit harsh on the young runinstripes, but you are correct..I said almost same thing but was not scolded.

The youngin' deserved it!!!!!!! ;)

JW

[GeorgieTheK]

When I was in high school, my track coach was a great recruiter and knew a lot about sprints/field events.


for a second there, i thought....uh..oh...we're going to get THAT debate again.

(decaf - keep it on the down low - they'll find out if we're not quiet!)

[marathonman]

I am not looking for training tips, runningstripes. I have coached 100's of youth runners for years and consider myself fairly knowledgable on the sport. It is once these kids, my own included, who get to high school and quickly get used to a more relaxed routine, that I am talking about.
Am I complaining, I guess you could say I am, however, this is a sport that I love and constantly preach the positives about.
Yes, there are kids that succeed without any kind of coaching, but those are the exceptions. A lot of these high school coaches are robbing these kids of a great opportunity to fully develop in this sport.
If we are in a coaching position, we owe it to our athletes to help and motivate them any way possible. To except kids to do this on their own, is not only robbing the talent pool, because you will lose many, but unfair.
Call it complaining if you want, I call it trying to bring this sport to a higher level

[Goingthedistance]

Marathonman:

King99 indicated that the sophmore running 3x200's in a speed workoput was at fault for not going out and trying harder. Unfortunately, this kid is a bonfide hard worker. He's been running since 6th grade. He's tried to negotiate with the coach and got nowhere. The coach knowa best! It's not a situation of him going out and doing his own thing. He can not compete if he doesn't do what the coach prescribes. He's got a great work ethic king99...Every summer he goes from 25 miles a week up to 70 miles per week by the time the cross country season begins. This year, at the start of the season he ran a 5k time trial in mid 16's. Then, at the first race he was told to hold back (by the coach) because the coach didn't want the others to see what he had. The kid held back as told and ran in the mid 17's along with the # 2 and 3 runners. Two weeks later, he caught a bug that half the school had and he never recovered because they kept running him in dual meets while he was sick. What kind of coach tells a kid to hold back because he doesn't want the other coach to know what he has. If the kid is ready to run...let him run!
So here's the deal...tomorrow this kid plans on doing what he thinks is right. Marathonman...thanks for the recommendations and reminding him about Mike M and getting thrown off the team a few times for working too hard. I understand why the kids you've coached have turned into some of the best runners in NJ.

This has been a very worthwhile post.

[king99]

and you totally misinterpreted what I said..what I meant and actually did say is that this is not that hard to figure out..

not getting enough training..go read front page of Dyestat,, as Jeff Nelson says.

everyone in the 70's was running over 80 miles a week, anyone that broke 9 minutes that is..

[kerm-ott]

Runinstripes- You have no idea what youre talking about. You don't know where marathon is coming from so dont try and talk him down as if he is bitching and not doing anything. Sometimes you exhaust all your sources and nothing can be done. I run (ran) for a school where the AD simply did not see track and field as a sport that mattered. He wouldn't higher coaches and did not respond well to complaints. I myself, went as high as the schoolboard to see if I could get his removal and failed because "He took care of wrestling and football" and those sports made money. I, for the last 3 years have coached myself with help from a former coach (who I am very thankful for) who has moved across the country and has worked with me via excel charts. But trainning is not the problem for someone that really wants to be successful. To get into the majority of meets, you need to be part of a school. (i.e. Josh McDougal, who did not get to race in many many meets because he was homeschooled.) Not running for a school makes it very difficult to get into meets and get transportation to those meets. In the last year, I've gone as far as driving myself to and from meets, sleeping on dorm room floors of friends just to run races and due to the lack of AD and coach effort, booking my own meets. I always ran for my school and tried very hard to work with the coaching situation I have been given. But it doesnt always work out. I was booted from my team last year 3 days prior to sectional for refusing to triple in a dual meet.

RIS, youre very inconsiderate. But I understand, you come form a very large program and have probably never even had to deal with things of this nature. Youve heard from a coach (marathon) and now youre hearing from a athlete. Getting through HS running can be done without a good coach or AD, but let me tell you, it is more difficult then it should be for any 15-18 year old to deal with.

[runinstripes]

Kerm-ott check your PM's.

[runinstripes]

As I just said to Kerm-ott...I apologize for how I came off, I guess I was in a bad mood at the time...i apologize to marathon and good luck with the situation..ill "hang out on another thread"

[Fabolous Wilson]

ill "hang out on another thread"

Haha... preferably one with cold water :D

[homeless]

in spite of knowledge and effort, sometimes poor coaching can overwhelm an athlete. I was a MOC mile medalist-completely self coached, and was used 16/8/32/hj every dual from 1st soph dual on. anchored 3 every weekend. I volunteered for it, but coach wasn't wise enough to say no; or man enough to not let a 15-18yo abuse himself. blossomed suddenly in college at a prime d1 school.

if you work with kids and get paid for it you have the moral responsibility to do the best you can;if it wasn't your sport prior, inform yourself. those that don't are stealing and will be forced to watch Marth Stewart reruns for eternity.

[Decaf]

who tells their kids to hold back in dual meets? i hope every coach.
king99's point about the kid running 3X200 is simple. do what your coach says and then do more. why negotiate? why argue with the coach? keep the attitude positive, do his thing and then do extra. i did ok for myself in high school with that exact plan. if i were lucky, my coach would occasionally send us out for an hour then we would always come back for some 400's in 80 (his staple). after awhile, i got the guy to let me run a mile while the other did their 4x400's. bottom line is that you can't stress over your training. it may not be ideal, but work with your coach!
george - i guess you figured i meant my 2nd high school...if you were in the hallway, you were on the track team.

[GeorgieTheK]

I guess the best thing for any athlete - or coach - who knows nothing about the sport is to find out what your competitors - especially those who beat you - are doing, and try to mimic their training.

of course, part of the sport is finding out what works best for each individual athlete (dr. sheehan's "experiement" of one). but there's no reason why you can't go ask for adivce from those who seem to be doing it better than you are.

the old football coach i referred to earlier did exactly that. every meet he was at, he'd find the coach of the winning runner and ask him what sort of workout he gave his athletes. he'd write them down, and train his athletes that way - the whole time tweaking things here and there, taking parts of some workouts and mixing them with others.

within 7 years he had one of the best programs in the state of n.j., including a penn relays championship of america. within 11 years he had an NCAA championship ring as an assistant. and within 20 years one of his athletes had a world championship medal and he was leading one of the best college track programs in the country; 10 years after that he stuck 2 guys on the olympic team.

not bad for a guy who never ran and knew absolutely nothing about the sport.

[bergenxctcoach]

You can't say that kids should hold back in duals, especially if the dual is being used as part of a training program, just like you can't say the kid should do more, if they aren't running well.

A coach has to know the kid and situation, and then assess. I believe that was the response of many of us to the theme of the original thread.

If a coach isn't knowledgeable or doesn't care, then success is a roll of the dice. If you have a clue, then there are lots of ways to be successful. But there are lots of ways that kids subvert your training plans for them. We have kids that are told to do less, or at a lesser pace, who then ignore us, do more and wonder why they don't improve in late May and June. There are kids that have only 2-3 major race efforts in them each season. Despite our assessment, Mom/Dad tells them they have to hammer each race and again at Groups or SMOC then have nothing left. Mom/Dad's conclusion? The coaching sucks. You may have a true horse that can go flat out 6-9 times in the season.

How does the kid handle the mental stress of being expected to race as many times as you ask them to? That whole mind/body connection is so important, yet so poorly underestood.

It will be exciting to see how our next group of talented young runners do. We will follow our 4 year plan and then we'll have an idea if it was good or not!

[marathonman]

I wish that some of these coaches, who have been with programs for years, and don't give a dam, would read some of the insight that is posted on dyestat.
Then again, if they were following stuff on dyestat, it would mean they gave a dam.

[MaroonNews]

I wish that some of these coaches, who have been with programs for years, and don't give a dam, would read some of the insight that is posted on dyestat.
Then again, if they were following stuff on dyestat, it would mean they gave a dam.

dam [dam] noun
1. barrier controlling flow of water:
2. female parent of animal:

Although you may feel the coaches are a barrier to development, or perhaps lack testosterone, I believe you mean:

damn [ dam ] interjection
exclamation of annoyance: used as a swearword to emphasize irritation, displeasure, disappointment, or frustration

:D

[marathonman]

no, I meant dam, because they are the barrier that can control the flow.

[MaroonNews]

In that case, the coach DID give a dam! :D

[Goingthedistance]

GeorgietheK:

I think I am having dinner with that football coach this weekend. If you would like to join us, let me know. By the way...look for my book about a NJ based HS XC program coming out soon called "The Long Green Line". Were you coached by him, too?



Marathonman:

When you blow by me in all those 5K's I am saying ...."Damn"...not "Dam"...just so there is no confusion.

[king99]

I think that title may have been used already in reference to York HS??

[Goingthedistance]

King99:

How do you like that....I've been scooped! Oh well...I had a back up...."Men of Pause".

Thanks.

[king99]

Indeed..but Gags was and is quite a legend..I do not know him at all..but the history is rampant.

Jack O'Leary helped coach right out of Villanova,,when they had a young Joe Savage who is still one of the All Timers in Nj history


Dywer leaves at Essex,,goes to Manhatten..Jack takes over, coaches Keogh to 4:10 to 4;11 win over Joe at a mile and 8:54 yards at GWI..then Inman monster leg at 4:07 yards at Penn

And famous rematch win over St Joes of buffalo with Trammels in DMR at Randalls island

[Jumper23]

bump

[LCSHSfan]

Effecting change in a high school program is really hard to do. Most coaches and AD's do not want to hear from parents, and always assume the parents don't know nearly as much as the coach, or think their little Johnny is better than what he actually is, or are only concerned (unrealistically) about getting Johnny a D 1 sports scholarship. Kids are just kids and are easily dismissed as they have no political power, and often can't speak up because they are vulnerable to being benched or persecuted. Frequently, the AD is shortsighted and thinks a coach is good merely because the team wins more games/dual meets than they lose.

But I agree with the suggestion about former athletes returning to talk to the BOE or AD. Since they have no axe to grind, people might listen. From what I hear, this was how our school finally fired a coach (not track) who was infamous for being clueless about the sport and for engaging in unprofessional behavior.

For those of you who suggest supplemental running after school practice, I think you might not understand the academic and extra-curricular or employment workload a lot of kids carry. There's not enough time in the day to waste several hours after school on ineffective training and then put more time in afterward, when there's still a job to go to or AP homework to be done, not to mention daily maintenance like dinner, shower, and sleep. In addition, many coaches would not take kindly to a kid doing his own thing if they found out, and would absolve themselves of responsibility for the kid and his performance. Also, I seem to remember a thread about this topic last year and many folks on this board strongly criticized that suggestion. There was concern about kids overtraining or training the wrong way and getting injured. People asserted that coaches were heros--dedicated people who have their athletes best interest at heart and should be listened to, etc.

There will always be self-motivated, ambitious, type A kids who will make the best of a bad situation and figure something out to help themselves improve. But the vast majority of kids are not internally motivated at this age. When offered an easy training program from their high school coach (who they are supposed to listen to and be loyal to) will gladly accept that and be happy, even if Dad or a college runner, or some other outside person tells them they should be doing more. Most kids simply are not that mature yet.

[Blackbeard]

Some thoughts.

*I love coaching- I find it fun. Honestly- I’d do it for free. It's what I choose to do-The only vacation I’ve taken in the last 7 years has been to work the NCAA meet in beautiful Terre Haute, IN. I have a ball every year.

*I have a different idea of fun than most 31 year old guys.

*I’m pretty surprised of some of “most coaches” statements being thrown around. What if I- as a coach- said “most parents…..”. Most people who make mostly negative remarks begining with "Most Coaches" are most often jerks. I don't know where LCHS is but I'm glad I don't coach there......or Sussex County. I'd be in jail now.

*no coaching in jail.

*I already said....I love coaching.

*I think there are a lot of excellent coaches in the game right now. Performances reflect good coaching. A lot of folks (me) said the 70’s could never happen again. A lot of folks were wrong. These kids are running fast and working HARD.

*Some of you would be very surprised about how long ‘coaching vacancies’ sit around- I work in a great school district and we have a pretty tough time filling spots. Lets base a ‘wanted ad’ on this thread. “Distance coach wanted, failures will be magnified by parents on the world wide web, you’ll be lucky to make a grand after taxes, track meets take longer than tortoise fights, kids will sign up for track and complain when you ask them to run.”….where do I sign up?

*If your kid wants to be good and the coach isn’t receptive to the idea then you- as a parent have the responsibility to seek help. There’s plenty of people who helped me in high school. I asked, I was willing to work, and wanted to be good.

*Our coach was a great guy (Mainland) but when I got to high school our mile record was 4:44.

*Myself, my brother, and my neighbor ran every morning at 6:00 am. I'd fall asleep in class. I had more "c's" then a fiesta.

*We all went faster than 4:44.

*I never ran as fast as I wanted to.

*I don’t blame the coaches. I was the one training- and- more importantly- I was the one racing....and eating like crap...and not stretching enough......and weighing 170.....and...

*I would love to see some of those critiquing coaches on here give it a try. Someone on here made the intelligent remark that “it’s not rocket science”. It’s harder than you think.
*Maybe you could coach with me next year.

*I’d give reports weekly describing your failures on dyestat.com

*It’d only be fair.

[HJfrick]

I think the reason Jumper bumped this thread has to do more with the lack of good field coaches. I'd say there is certainly a lack of good field coaching throughout HS, mostly because they are the most technical events to coach. You can read a book on training, and BS your way to being a decent distance or sprint coach (not to belittle either position), but it takes a little more know-how to coach the jumps and throws. My junior and senior year of high school, I coached the HJ/LJ/TJ, gave everyone their workouts, and tried to give technical help when I could. I've heard similar stories from many HS field athletes. Luckily, I had the chance to make it down to train with Mike Pascuzzo a few times. One of the biggest advantages to being a college athlete is having a coach dictate for me what workouts I should be doing. Anyway, that's my rant.

[LCSHSfan]

I don't think that saying that most coaches do not want to hear from parents is in any way a negative comment about coaches. I just meant that, as you point out Blackbeard, it's tough fun doing a job in which there's a big and diversely opinionated group of people who may feel entitled (whether rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view) to comment on how you should do the job. All the coaches my children have had in various sports have said they want to hear from the kids--not the parents. Maybe I shouldn't have said "most coaches," because obviously I haven't taken an official poll of every coach in the world. But again, I seem to remember a similar thread on this forum in which quite a few coaches chimed in to say that the worst aspect of their job is dealing with parents.

[PFFlyer]

Ironic. A lot of the coaches that I encounter seem to have very good relationships with parents. Not all parents of course, but with the ones who take the kids participation seriously. Please do not mistake interest with interference.

[Blackbeard]

I don't think that saying that most coaches do not want to hear from parents is in any way a negative comment about coaches. I just meant that, as you point out Blackbeard, it's tough fun doing a job in which there's a big and diversely opinionated group of people who may feel entitled (whether rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view) to comment on how you should do the job. All the coaches my children have had in various sports have said they want to hear from the kids--not the parents. Maybe I shouldn't have said "most coaches," because obviously I haven't taken an official poll of every coach in the world. But again, I seem to remember a similar thread on this forum in which quite a few coaches chimed in to say that the worst aspect of their job is dealing with parents.

that's a very thoughtful response-I appreciate it. I think dealing with the kids allows the kids and the coach to trust each other- I prefer to deal with the kids for this reason- just as I prefer my wife-to-be to speak with me when I'm an idiot instead of having one of her friends do it. I've been blessed with great kids who often come from great parents. I was thinking of another thing re this thread- that is the notion that coaches stay on for the check- I think this does happen-but not often- but I've seen it- however- much more often I think more often there is a severe shortage of good experienced coaches- and teachers for that matter.- especially young people who want to coach and coach properly. Joe L made an interesting comment earlier in this thread- about larger schools not being able to field teams. I would surmise that these schools have obvious obstacles in place- ie. not an ideal environment for distance running. I would suggest that at these schools there are plenty of coaching vacancies. Nobody wants these jobs.

[king99]

Blackbeard , good points.

I will comment on a few things.

I coached LL and Babe Ruth Baseball in a town of 5000 people. With powers, HS surrounding. I can tell folks this definitively, parents think their kids will be pros. How many? Not sure of that, but more than 10 that I know.

You know how many of those made the major leagues? Zero.

You know how many pros I know in BB? NONE. My brother was first team all everything and got marginal money in 1977.


As a parent(coach of a 4;11 and 4;17 guy),you know how many folks think their 4:20 miler kid who dominates their conf.meet thinks their kid is a full ride?

8 out of ten.You know how many kids get full rides in track or XC? Under 20% of ALL Elite. I do not care what people tell you.

This is THE problem.

Folks think their kids should go to performance/training schools? Put all their investment into what? They should train hard ,have fun, see what rolls from there.No more no less. If your goal as a parent is to have your kid go for free? Have them play golf, OR tennis, there is way more money out there in those two sports.

Now schools and coaches that I know well, put in way more hours than I could possibly think of.And rarely, if ever is it about them .It is about the kids.

Guys/gals do some remarkable stuff. Some do "roll out the ball" as I call it, and that is a shame.

[LCSHSfan]

It IS probably quite common to see good relationships between coaches and parents in track and field because there are objective measures of a kid's performance. How can a parent argue with the watch or tape measure? Frankly, most track parents won't need to have any relationship at all with the coach. In sports like soccer and baseball in which there are more participation issues, the coach-parent relationship can become adversarial because of the more subjective nature of performance assessment and distribution of playing time. But if a track parent does show up in the coach's or AD's office, it's probably a sticky situation of a more personal or subjective nature--one that no coach will be overjoyed to have to deal with.

Coaches have gotten a bad rap from parents, but parents have also gotten a bad rap from coaches. My point in the earlier post is that if there's a problem in a sports program, parents will almost never have the upper hand and ability to bring change. There is more likely to be a presumption of guilt on the side of the parent than there is on the side of the coach. This is because parents are swayed or are believed to be swayed by emotional factors, and because the administration/the insiders/the status quo always has the upper hand in organizations.

Edit: In other words, Jumper can't just walk into the AD's office and explain why the track program at his school stinks and then, miraculously, the AD will agree and fire the coach just like that. That wouldn't be right anyway. The AD would probably have to hear the same thing from 5-10 parents before acting if then even, and most parents are afraid to say anything while their child is still in the program.

[king99]

If this is something that has happened to you, I suggest two things.

One is something I said to every kid I know. The sport is simple, run faster, train harder.It is all ultimately allabout the watch and folks you beat.

The other would be and I rarely opt for this. if the situation is that bad, go private and we know where those are, and find the expert coaching you think is out there.

The great thing and what attracted me to Track as a kid, was that it WAS objective, if you ran 2:00.x for 880 and someone did not..You got to play as we say.

Hoops? My second favorite sport now, my first growing up? Very subjective.

Parents and I am one with 4 kids..are way over the top today, and generally they are looking for price breaks for college,from the time they enter T-Ball.

That is my experience so I err on the coahces side always.

[LCSHSfan]

King, you just proved my point. Unfortunately, coaches such as yourself view the majority of parents (8 out of 10 did you say?) as naive or blind idiots who are the only ones in the stands who don't realize their kid sucks. I only know ONE parent like that.

[king99]

By the way, the "upper hand "quotes? Seem pretty specific to you, I would start looking in the mirror at stuff like this.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Being fortunate enough to know LCSHS, there is no reason for looking in the mirror.

[LCSHSfan]

Just to be clear, I'm responding to the original post. My own kid's track coach has always been polite, professional, and promptly responsive to everything I have ever needed to say. No complaints whatsoever. And whenever I thought he went above and beyond in working hard for the team, I always sent him an complimentary e-mail of appreciation and copied the AD.

[king99]

Ahh Joe , I was waiting for ya, but please let him speak up for himself.:D

There are a LOT of,someone has the "upper hand "thing in multiple posts,no one has leverage in today's world.There are tons of options.With all due respect.

A Lot of these posts sound pretty specific.Sorry if I misinterpreted that.

[king99]

Well. there ya go..I was wrong in my view.Let's see that would be my tenth time this year and ten times more than anyone else admitting they were wrong.

[JustRun07]

hahahaha, you guys all continued a thread bumped by Jumper.

[Bennett]

From BlackBeards post:
*I would love to see some of those critiquing coaches on here give it a try. Someone on here made the intelligent remark that “it’s not rocket science”. It’s harder than you think.
[/QUOTE]

It's harder. The rockets don't complain after they blow up.

(nice post btw)

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Ahh Joe , I was waiting for ya, but please let him speak up for himself.:D

There are a LOT of,someone has the "upper hand "thing in multiple posts,no one has leverage in today's world.There are tons of options.With all due respect.

A Lot of these posts sound pretty specific.Sorry if I misinterpreted that.

You post, you're subject to comment by anyone.

And you are not the only one who admits when he is wrong.

LCSHS's athlete does indeed have an excellent coach, as do so many others. Like most things in life, there are examples both ways - meddling parents and bad coaches.

[Bennett]

I think the reason Jumper bumped this thread has to do more with the lack of good field coaches. I'd say there is certainly a lack of good field coaching throughout HS, mostly because they are the most technical events to coach. You can read a book on training, and BS your way to being a decent distance or sprint coach (not to belittle either position), but it takes a little more know-how to coach the jumps and throws. My junior and senior year of high school, I coached the HJ/LJ/TJ, gave everyone their workouts, and tried to give technical help when I could. I've heard similar stories from many HS field athletes. Luckily, I had the chance to make it down to train with Mike Pascuzzo a few times. One of the biggest advantages to being a college athlete is having a coach dictate for me what workouts I should be doing. Anyway, that's my rant.
You don't run or coach distance do you? Cause I thought the same thing about jumps....still do actually. Run. Jump high or far. Don't knock down bright yellow bar. Or fall backwards. Woops. You can try again. Woops. You can try again. I mean Carol frickin Lewis jumped. And well! How hard can it be. Man, Ivy guys.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

You don't run or coach distance do you? Cause I thought the same thing about jumps....still do actually. Run. Jump high or far. Don't knock down bright yellow bar. Or fall backwards. Woops. You can try again. Woops. You can try again. I mean Carol frickin Lewis jumped. And well! How hard can it be. Man, Ivy guys.


What do you know? He goes to PU, you went to some southern school.

[LCSHSfan]

Back to the topic. I'm kind of surprised that you guys are advocating that kids in this situation just do their own training. Like I already mentioned, the last time a similar question was asked it seemed to me that most people on here were against that idea. One good reason given was that the coach is basing his training plan on what the athlete is doing with him. If the kid is actually running more miles or more 800 repeats, or doing Daddy workouts and the coach doesn't know about it and take that into consideration, that could be dangerous.

Ideally, the athlete could approach the coach and ask for a more challenging plan and they could work together. But that's if the coach doesn't feel threatend and get defensive. A friend of my daughter's was using a private jumps coach and her high school coach did not like that one little bit.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Back to the topic. I'm kind of surprised that you guys are advocating that kids in this situation just do their own training. Like I already mentioned, the last time a similar question was asked it seemed to me that most people on here were against that idea. One good reason given was that the coach is basing his training plan on what the athlete is doing with him. If the kid is actually running more miles or more 800 repeats, or doing Daddy workouts and the coach doesn't know about it and take that into consideration, that could be dangerous.

Ideally, the athlete could approach the coach and ask for a more challenging plan and they could work together. But that's if the coach doesn't feel threatend and get defensive. A friend of my daughter's was using a private jumps coach and her high school coach did not like that one little bit.

I could be wrong, but I do not think you are hearing King or anyone else advocating that kids train on their own; King is a guy who leans heavily towards the coach and so do I. While I know of some bad ones, most care and do a decent job and just by nature of the fact that they tend to do it over and over, they learn something along the way. Even great athletes can do a bad job coaching themselves; high school athletes shouldn't try it.

[HJfrick]

At my high school, we had a guy a year ahead of me that was a good, solid distance guy. However, the distance coaching at our school as a bit lacking. SO, he got some help from the coach of a nearby school, who happens to be a very good distance coach. He still ran for our team, but he did his own workouts, sometimes with other guys, sometimes by himself. Worked out well for him. In the end, it's the athletes job to make sure they are training the best they can. If that means going above or outside their coaches, they need to do what they need to do. Obviously, this creates a problem in some circumstances, but I believe that if a coach is aware that there is a better alternative for their athlete, they should, and do, step aside and allow the athlete what is best for them.

[Jumper23]

i was planning on posting something when i bumped it but i had to sign off so i couldnt. i bumped it because ive noticed A TON of jumps coaches that dont have a clue what in the world theyre doing. i see all these triple jumpers basically injuring themselves on their 2nd phase because their coach has no idea what the mechanics of the triple jump are. ive seen 2 high jumpers hurt their ankle because of a really bad run up. ive seen many long jumpers spike themselves because they dont know how to land properly due to clueless coaches. i dont really care about the posts that say "oh im all for the coaches" and all that. thats fine for the most part but how can u defend coaches that let their athletes injure themselves? u have no idea how many people ive seen hurt their ankle in the triple jump because their coach just says "it's a hop, step, and jump. simple as that" WTF kinda coaching is that?