Penn relay races announced

[RBroady]

took 18 teams for boys DM, 17 for girls


HSG 4x800 (Event 5)
AA Holmwood Technical JA
AB St. Jago JA
AC Upper St. Clair PA
AD Bishop Loughlin NY
AE Pearl River NY
AF Ursuline School NY
AG Thomas Jefferson VA
AH Villa Maria Academy PA
AI Roger Bacon OH
AJ Sacred Heart Academy NY
AK Atholton MD
AL Tatnall DE
AM Ridge NJ
AN Hershey PA
AO Glenelg MD
AP Archbishop Carroll PA
AR St. Catherine’s VA

HSG 4x800 (Event 6)
BA Vere Technical JA
BB Gwynedd Mercy PA
BC Engineering & Science PA
BD Somers NY
BE Cornwall NY
BF Sayville NY
BG Haddonfield Memorial NJ
BH Radnor PA
BI Strath Haven PA
BJ Unionville PA
BK Potomac VA
BL West Morris Mendham NJ
BM Bromfield School MA
BN Brandywine DE
BO Cardinal Gibbons NC
BP Caldwell NJ
BR Metuchen NJ

HSG 4x800 (Event 7)
CA Boys & Girls NY
CB Saratoga Springs NY
CC Shenendehowa NY
CD Midlothian VA
CE Ridgewood NJ
CF Oakton VA
CG Long Beach Poly CA
CH Colts Neck NJ
CI Robinson VA
CJ Liberty PA
CK Northport NY
CL Henderson PA
CM Conestoga PA
CN Fairfax VA
CO Archbishop Prendergast PA
CP Largo MD
CR Padua Academy DE
CS Kecoughtan VA

HSG 4x800 (Event 8)
DA Suffern NY
DB Lake Braddock VA
DC Hatboro-Horsham PA
DD DeWitt Clinton NY
DE Morris Knolls NJ
DF Westfield VA
DG Cumberland Valley PA
DH North Penn PA
DI North Rockland NY
DJ East Meadow NY
DK Westfield NJ
DL Ridgefield CT
DM New Rochelle NY
DN Bethel VA
DO Lenape NJ
DP East Hartford CT
DR Winston Churchill MD


HSB 4x800 (Event 93)
AA Holmwood Technical JA
AB Conestoga Valley PA
AC St. Jago JA
AD J.R. Tucker VA
AE Springfield MontCo PA
AF Collegiate NY
AG Bernards NJ
AH Tacius Golding JA
AI Somers NY
AJ Lakewood NJ
AK Morris Hills NJ
AL Punxsutawney Area PA
AM Kingsway Regional NJ
AN Pleasantville NJ
AO Episcopal VA
AP Gilman School MD
AR Wilton CT

HSB 4x800 (Event 94)
BA Manchester JA
BB Germantown Academy PA
BC Archbishop Carroll PA
BD Wissahickon PA
BE Thomas Jefferson VA
BF Tappan Zee NY
BG Great Valley PA
BH Bordentown Regional NJ
BI Forsyth Country Day NC
BJ Mergenthaler VoTech MD
BK Penncrest PA
BL Grafton WI
BM Notre Dame NJ
BN Morristown NJ
BO Owen J. Roberts PA
BP Ocean City NJ
BR Bishop Eustace Prep NJ

HSB 4x800 (Event 95)
CA Syosset NY
CB North Penn PA
CC Warwick Valley NY
CD State College PA
CE Chaminade NY
CF Manheim Township PA
CG Northport NY
CH Don Bosco Prep NJ
CI Walter Johnson MD
CJ Central PA
CK Ridgefield CT
CL Fordham Prep NY
CM West Springfield VA
CN Washingtonville NY
CO Upper Dublin PA
CP Mount St. Michael's Academy NY
CR Glen Mills PA
CS C.H. Flowers MD

HSB 4x800 (Event 96)
DA Shaker NY
DB Shenendehowa NY
DC Salesianum DE
DD Kellenberg Memorial NY
DE Cherokee NJ
DF Robinson VA
DG Triton Regional NJ
DH Transit Tech NY
DI East Brunswick NJ
DJ Downingtown East PA
DK Langley VA
DL Canastota NY
DM Upper Darby PA
DN Shelton CT
DO Winston Churchill MD
DP Father Judge PA
DR Central Bucks East PA


HSG DMR (Event 73)
A Warwick Valley NY
B Bay Shore NY
C Scotia-Glenville NY
D Roxbury NJ
E Ocean City NJ
F Bronxville NY
G St. Basil Academy PA
H Monsignor Donovan NJ
I Holy Trinity NY
J Conard CT
K Eleanor Roosevelt MD
L Jackson Memorial NJ
M Connetquot NY
N Ward Melville NY
O Cherokee NJ
P Cardinal O'Hara PA


HSB DMR (Event 173)
A Colts Neck NJ
B Newton North MA
C North Rockland NY
D Christian Brothers Academy NJ
E Ridgewood NJ
F Seton Hall Prep NJ
G Cranford NJ
H Cardinal O'Hara PA
I Burnt Hills-Ballston Lake NY
J Niskayuna NY
K Monsignor Farrell NY
L Phillipsburg NJ
M Council Rock North PA
N Herndon VA
O Long Beach Poly CA
P Randolph NJ
R Eleanor Roosevelt MD
S Arlington NY

[maniacmiler]

nice, PA representing big time! should be some good show downs, i say Syosset, but North Penn went 7:49 indoors too, so anyone could run well.

[scott c]

Penn DMR definitely looks to have lost a little luster. With a 10:05 out in California this weekend and 7 New Jersey teams in the DMR it looks like the field lost some of its national appeal.

I realize that the NJ teams were some of the best in the country this winter, but there are others running very fast so far this spring that are not coming.

[king99]

Scott . not so sure this is different than any other year in last at least 5-7.

Only notable teams really were S. lakes, there was NO Atlantic with Jeffersons, and Irsih teams, Malachy

Most have almost always been from around here?

[GeorgieTheK]

Penn DMR definitely looks to have lost a little luster. With a 10:05 out in California this weekend and 7 New Jersey teams in the DMR it looks like the field lost some of its national appeal.

I realize that the NJ teams were some of the best in the country this winter, but there are others running very fast so far this spring that are not coming.

guess we didn't factor in newton north. they look pretty good for the win - in addition to barnicle they have a 4:25i miler and a 1:21i 600 guy.

going to be tough to beat that. will be interesting to see forys pushed hard.

[maniacmiler]

well they can just as well run a fast 4x800, if the Millers twins can run a fast mile they can deffinatly run a fast 800 and Cargile can hit that 800 as well and i am sure they can stick that 52 in guy and have him run one more lap! also they may not have had a chance to run the a DMR to qualify. Still i believe these guys can go 7:50's for sure!

[scott c]

Scott . not so sure this is different than any other year in last at least 5-7.

Only notable teams really were S. lakes, there was NO Atlantic with Jeffersons, and Irsih teams, Malachy

Most have almost always been from around here?

I guess you're right, I was just thinking about El Camino coming east and running 10:11 last year. Doesn't look like the title will come from outside the northeast this year. Not that I mind.

I totally second George's opinion. It's going to be a lot of fun to see how Forys responds to Barnicle, no matter where they get the baton.

[king99]

Barnicle has run 4:11 once ever I think, and did not run that fast a mile all indoors, is he better than Forys? One would think, but I saw Forys bite down when he ran his 4:13.xx 16 leg and there was enough there for more.

a 4;25 1600 guy would maybe be about a 3:12 guy ? Not so sure Barnicle will be close enough to run anyone down

CN has been in two big spots this year in DMR and has responded to both, NN? What have they done?

here is a valid question? How does NN even get in..they ran 10:43.xx Indoors

Unless they ran monster time this past weekend? when did they even Q especially in what looks like "B" or second slot?

How does this even occur?

[scott c]

Seeing them in the second slot seems a little fishy, I agree, but I have no qualms about them being in there when they have a name like Barnicle on the anchor. It's obvious that they have some other talent in there as well, and can go much faster than their seed time.

This is why, despite Penn's hard and fast approach to entries and acceptances, they do have a high school selection committee and I think the committee is doing the right thing here in letting Newton North run. What more does Barnicle have to prove in major 3k/3200s? The anchor legs of the DMR can always be compared to the Penn mile winners so he'll be able to see what he can do in the shorter distance against the best around on that day.

[king99]

Scott here is the problem I have..One runner does NOT a DMR make, in fact if not positioned he makes NO difference at all.

there ARE schools that get excluded every year, last year schools that actually RAN the 10:30 or so it at least takes

I think Kellenburg? NY? ran like 10:31 and was shut out?

I could be wrong, but I think, or tought you actually had to run the mark.Then putting them in the second pole so to speak? What gives?

They ran nothing, NOTHING at all like a mark that would get them in that I know of.

Barnicle cannot run every leg, I think we all know that!! :(

[runinstripes]

What did Morris Hills run the 4x800 in to qualify?

[king99]

easy there junior...

They ran 8:12.xx Indoors at Armory

[runinstripes]

easy there junior...

They ran 8:12.xx Indoors at Armory
Haha didn't mean to stir anything up...just didn't think they really raced this winter much...

[GeorgieTheK]

Scott here is the problem I have..One runner does NOT a DMR make, in fact if not positioned he makes NO difference at all.

there ARE schools that get excluded every year, last year schools that actually RAN the 10:30 or so it at least takes

I think Kellenburg? NY? ran like 10:31 and was shut out?

I could be wrong, but I think, or tought you actually had to run the mark.Then putting them in the second pole so to speak? What gives?

They ran nothing, NOTHING at all like a mark that would get them in that I know of.

Barnicle cannot run every leg, I think we all know that!! :(


Newton North doesn't have just one leg - they have a 4:25i leg, and a 1:21i leg. It isn't that much of a stretch to conservately say 3:10 and 1:56 - and that puts them right in the mix with CN and CBA. They had 4 guys under 13:35 in their only race at Van cortlandt - (2nd runner 13:02) Plus they have a very big anchor. Barnicle is pretty tough - 8:56 @ arcardia against the best field in the country so far. Won millrose, handling scotland pretty easily. He ran 9:01 full 2 miles indoors - winning by 36 seconds at his state meet. 6th in FL, NE champ - 12:18 at vanny destroying tshirt and scotland. with a resume like that, this is a team that deserves to be there.

With all apologies to kellenberg and teams that have gotten passed over in the past and present, it makes no sense NOT to have newton north. and to seed them very highly.

[king99]

Georgie, gotta call ya on this..your giving up a 3:10 carry to a 4:25.xx 1600 guy is wayyy too charitable.

Tremblay has relayed 4:20.xx 1600 and just ran 3:11.8

Horel is barely a 3:11 at the Armory, maybe not even, and has split 4:22

4:25? Is maybe 3:12-13, maybe..and thats loose

[300kicks]

Rumored Legs/ Polgar12/Slifer4/Carpenter8/Barnicle16

Indoor bests/
300 - David Slifer Newton North 36.65

B-600 1:21.42 Carpenter, Jed, 2005, Newton North MA 2/25/2005, State Meet MA, # 2 Reggie Lewis

B-1000 2:33.92 Polgar, David, 2006, Newton North MA 1/15/2005, Team Pentathlon MA, # 2 Reggie Lewis

B-Mile 4:25.24 Polgar, David, 2006, Newton North MA 2/25/2005, State Meet MA, # 1 Reggie Lewis

Plus CBarnicle

[GeorgieTheK]

Georgie, gotta call ya on this..your giving up a 3:10 carry to a 4:25.xx 1600 guy is wayyy too charitable.

Tremblay has relayed 4:20.xx 1600 and just ran 3:11.8

Horel is barely a 3:11 at the Armory, maybe not even, and has split 4:22

4:25? Is maybe 3:12-13, maybe..and thats loose

i don't think 3:10 is way too charitable for a 4:25 guy. the guy from colts neck ran 3:08/3:09 at the armory, would that make him a 4:20 miler?

The guy from Newton North, Dave Polgar, is legit. He ran 13:02 at manhattan, was the Mass state champ in the mile @ 4:25.24, going through the 3/4 in 3:22.9. He also ran 2:33 1k indoors.

In addition, they have a guy who ran 1:21.42 indoors, only .6 slower than scotland, and faster than pachella, hayrol cruz, glackin, etc.

They also had a 4 x 4 run 3:27 indoors, with only the 600 guy doubling back.

They have guys who can run.

[king99]

First of all let me be the first to applaud your knowledge of even down to the detaiol of splits within races of the NN guys? How do you do it all? Or how would you know.

I did not know he ran 2:33 that would have indicated more to me than what I thought was a 4:25.xx 1600 that needed an added 1.5 to it.

Fair enough..so okay next question, since when did it become practice at Penn to project added scratch marks, then seed them as "B", if at all? I had never heard that it was..?????

[GeorgieTheK]

First of all let me be the first to applaud your knowledge of even down to the detaiol of splits within races of the NN guys? How do you do it all? Or how would you know.

I did not know he ran 2:33 that would have indicated more to me than what I thought was a 4:25.xx 1600 that needed an added 1.5 to it.

Fair enough..so okay next question, since when did it become practice at Penn to project added scratch marks, then seed them as "B", if at all? I had never heard that it was..?????

I can't speak for the Penn seeding committee - I don't know what their rules are, or how hard and fast they with them. Certainly they've made exceptions in the past with foreign teams, and I don't think that they are being unreasonable here. I think NN is easily a top 3 team, and in my mind, with the NE XC champ who came within a second of the course record at Vanny (granted, its been resurfaced) and won the millrose easily, and has basically stomped everyone he has run against this year except for the footlocker finals - and not to mention 3 other guys who are more than credible, they are the favorite to win.

As for the details of the NN guys, the dyestat northeast page has all sorts of interesting links. Read the summaries of the mass state meet, and you'll find all you need to know.

[Kalaby]

Considering the fact that this is an 18 team deep field, I personally don't have an issue with NN getting in, but others will justifiably feel otherwise, particularly the 19th team. More than anything else, I think Barnicle's name recognition and talent contributed greatly to the favorable nod from the committee, though as mentioned above, this is a very good team (at least on paper) and one way or another probably deserved one of those 18 spots. The committee's selection of NN is one of those things that you can probably chalk up to being in the "spirit of the law" as opposed to the "letter of the law", but once again that's just speculation on my part.

[NJ5k]

4x8:

Why are Syosset and North Penn in a different heat than Shaker? I'm not really familiar with Penn's seeding process but obviously I would have liked to have seen them in the same heat.

[Kalaby]

4x8:

Why are Syosset and North Penn in a different heat than Shaker? I'm not really familiar with Penn's seeding process but obviously I would have liked to have seen them in the same heat.

Those are prelims. Top 11 (I think) qualify on time for Saturday's final.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Considering the fact that this is an 18 team deep field, I personally don't have an issue with NN getting in, but others will justifiably feel otherwise, particularly the 19th team. More than anything else, I think Barnicle's name recognition and talent contributed greatly to the favorable nod from the committee, though as mentioned above, this is a very good team (at least on paper) and one way or another probably deserved one of those 18 spots. The committee's selection of NN is one of those things that you can probably chalk up to being in the "spirit of the law" as opposed to the "letter of the law", but once again that's just speculation on my part.

You're right, its a good team on paper but what about all those teams that actually scramble every year to get a Penn "qualifier"? I mean, I thought you had to prove it on the track to run these races at Penn, but of course limiting participation to one relay will mean more room for more teams.

[NJ5k]

Those are prelims. Top 11 (I think) qualify on time for Saturday's final.

It's all coming together now.

[Scotty]

Newton is easily a championship section DMR team. I find it hard to believe that they have not un 10:30 yet. With a 2:33pt guy, a 1:21.4 guy and an 8:50y guy on the 12, 8 and 16 respectively, they will be trouble for CN. Hard for me to see Newton outside the top 3.

IMO, Manheim would win the DMR if they ran it (they may be making a mistake going the 4x8). They are NO SLOWER than a 10:10 team, and will run 10:00 if they run the event at Nationals.

[GeorgieTheK]

You're right, its a good team on paper but what about all those teams that actually scramble every year to get a Penn "qualifier"? I mean, I thought you had to prove it on the track to run these races at Penn, but of course limiting participation to one relay will mean more room for more teams.

It's one of the perks that come with being a good team with a big name on the anchor. It's tough for teams that are chasing a qualifier at every meet, but in reality, those teams have no shot at winning, or even staying competitive for more than 2 legs. Penn has made exceptions in the past - in what the committee would consider the best interests of the meet in terms of competition. God knows that some of those Jamaican teams weren't running DMRs, and since the DMR is primarily a US creation, I doubt the Irish teams were running it either.

Did NN get special treatment because they have arguable the top h.s. distance runner in the nation on their anchor? yes. Is it justified? yes. will there be hurt feelings and upset teams? yes. such is life.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

It's one of the perks that come with being a good team with a big name on the anchor. It's tough for teams that are chasing a qualifier at every meet, but in reality, those teams have no shot at winning, or even staying competitive for more than 2 legs. Penn has made exceptions in the past - in what the committee would consider the best interests of the meet in terms of competition. God knows that some of those Jamaican teams weren't running DMRs, and since the DMR is primarily a US creation, I doubt the Irish teams were running it either.

Did NN get special treatment because they have arguable the top h.s. distance runner in the nation on their anchor? yes. Is it justified? yes. will there be hurt feelings and upset teams? yes. such is life.

"Such is life"? Geez, that an awfully cavalier attitude if you're directing it towards a crew of 16 - 18 year olds who just busted their butts to get a qualifier only to find out that they got pushed in favor of a team that didn't have to do the same thing. And if "those teams" have no chance to win, why run an 18 team field? Why not just cut it down to those that have a chance to win and be done with it.

This is high school not college track, right?

[GeorgieTheK]

"Such is life"? Geez, that an awfully cavalier attitude if you're directing it towards a crew of 16 - 18 year olds who just busted their butts to get a qualifier only to find out that they got pushed in favor of a team that didn't have to do the same thing. And if "those teams" have no chance to win, why run an 18 team field? Why not just cut it down to those that have a chance to win and be done with it.

This is high school not college track, right?

yes it is h.s. track, but it is also ELITE hs track. not just anyone can run at penn relays. the committee there has done a pretty good job over the years of evaluating the talent. and yes, when they make a decision to leave someone out, then it hurts. but that's part of track - on any level.

in any event, i went back and looked at the teams that got in. the last seed , arlington, NY has run 10:34.8 indoors - i don't know if they've run faster. in fact, the first team NOT to get in, assuming they even put in an application, was commack, NY who ran 10:40.49 indoors. everyone else who had a shot was accepted in either the DMR or 4 x 800. that leaves only 4 teams ahead of NN on the indoor list who did not get in (again, i didn't go through the outdoor list, so correct me if anyone has run faster) - none of whom was more than 4 seconds faster then NN indoors.

furthermore, looking at that NN team that ran 10:43.9 indoors, they ran it without barnicle on the anchor, without their 1:21 guy running a leg at all!

little doubt they deserve to be there. as for the seeding - i don't think where they are on the line is THAT big a deal, or is it?

[scott c]

"Such is life"? Geez, that an awfully cavalier attitude if you're directing it towards a crew of 16 - 18 year olds who just busted their butts to get a qualifier only to find out that they got pushed in favor of a team that didn't have to do the same thing. And if "those teams" have no chance to win, why run an 18 team field? Why not just cut it down to those that have a chance to win and be done with it.

This is high school not college track, right?

Well if there were teams busting their butt to get a qualifer, they didn't do enough. The "qualifier" is 10:40 I believe, but that doesn't always (in fact it almost never) is good enough.

Teams are chasing an invitation, not a qualifier. I'm entirely with George on this one in that Newton North is very deserving of an invite.

Just out of curiosity, are you going to be watching the teams that "busted their butts" to get in, or are you going to be watching Newton North and the teams at the front of the pack?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Well if there were teams busting their butt to get a qualifer, they didn't do enough. The "qualifier" is 10:40 I believe, but that doesn't always (in fact it almost never) is good enough.

Teams are chasing an invitation, not a qualifier. I'm entirely with George on this one in that Newton North is very deserving of an invite.

Just out of curiosity, are you going to be watching the teams that "busted their butts" to get in, or are you going to be watching Newton North and the teams at the front of the pack?

Scott, I don't think that's the point. Neither you nor George have addressed this issue - why have 18 teams if only the top few have a chance to win? Picking up on what you said, why have 18 teams if no one is going to be watching anyone but the first few.

Yeah, I got it that it's ELITE high school track. I guess I just don't get why it's okay to change the rules in mid-stream for some teams, Oh, yeah, I know those are the only teams that anyone will be watching and/or have a chance to win.

You know, if you guys are right and I am sure you are about who ran what times, no one will get hurt this year. But here are other years and someone might at some point.

[king99]

I guess running Q times means nothing..anymore,..apparently...Every other year you would have to legitmately run 10:40 at least


Not off projected anything

Now Barnicle is the darling of the day..so on we go


He is not Kevin Byrne OR Mike Stahr..end of story

[MaestroXC]

Now Barnicle is the darling of the day..so on we go


He is not Kevin Byrne OR Mike Stahr..end of story

Obviously; he's Chris Barnicle, the best runner on a very good team, with a very good chance of winning.

I know you're opposed to an "all skate" approach to track, but even if Byrne or Stahr were running, would you be opposed to granting them an "invitation" to run in this high-profile race, having proof of their high level of fitness?

Penn is acting just like the major marathons have been, inviting top talent to strengthen the field and create interest in their race.

[scott c]

Scott, I don't think that's the point. Neither you nor George have addressed this issue - why have 18 teams if only the top few have a chance to win? Picking up on what you said, why have 18 teams if no one is going to be watching anyone but the first few.

Yeah, I got it that it's ELITE high school track. I guess I just don't get why it's okay to change the rules in mid-stream for some teams, Oh, yeah, I know those are the only teams that anyone will be watching and/or have a chance to win.

You know, if you guys are right and I am sure you are about who ran what times, no one will get hurt this year. But here are other years and someone might at some point.

First of all, I didn't think the 18-team field was the issue at all, but if you want an answer I would guess that its no different than why there are 60 kids running in the indoor Group IV 3200. $$$.

Secondly, no one is changing the rules. Penn is pretty open about the fact that its fields are ultimately determined by their selection committee. And when a team can go ahead and say "We ran 10:43 and, by the way, we have arguably the top high school runner in the country and he wasn't on that team," that's more than enough evidence of a school deserving to be in the field.

This is a half-serious question, but did Webb's South Lakes teams run an official "qualifier" both of the years they got in? I know Webb was kind of running his own schedule most of his senior year, so I really have no idea whether South Lakes ran fast during indoor or early that spring. And if they didn't, should the committe have not let them in?

I'm not trying to compare Barnicle to Webb, because like you said, he's a 4:11 guy until proven otherwise, but Barnicle is on the short list of the biggest name HS kids in the country right now. No logical meet would turn a name like that away when he has shown to have three capable teammates.

Another half serious question (which I'll try to investigate as soon as I finish this message): does Long Beach Poly have a qualifier? Without even knowing the answer I'd say that it doesn't matter. For all that that team has given Penn the past few years with its 4x800, 4x400, and 4x100 teams, if they could run sub-11 I'd let them in. Maybe that's just me.

I'm finding it funny that I hopped on this thread to give my opinion that the field didn't seem truly "National," and now I'm going overboard to defend the one team I was happily surprised to see in there.

***Edit*** Long Beach Poly ran 10:43 at Arcadia, 8:01 4x8 at Mt. SAC and no idea about anything else. My opinion stands. Penn is not the Nationals; it is an invitational meet, not a qualifying meet.

If LBP is already bringing a team East and wants to run in the DMR, due to the reputation of the program and given the fact that an El Camino or Loyola is apparently not interested in running Penn, I would accept their DMR in the interest of keeping its field national.

[Scotty]

I have to say, provided that the 10:43pt is the best Newton has posted, that they should never have been accepted. I stand by my post that they are a a top 3 team, but it is the team's responsibility to post a Q'er. I am confident that they will go 10:18 (maybe just under), but there is not much excuse for as team/coach that somehow failed to load up a DMR in order to get into Penn. It's not asking much at all.

I'm glad that Newton is running at Penn, but this establishes a rather poor precedent.

[scott c]

I have to say, provided that the 10:43pt is the best Newton has posted, that they should never have been accepted. I stand by my post that they are a a top 3 team, but it is the team's responsibility to post a Q'er. I am confident that they will go 10:18 (maybe just under), but there is not much excuse for as team/coach that somehow failed to load up a DMR in order to get into Penn. It's not asking much at all.

I'm glad that Newton is running at Penn, but this establishes a rather poor precedent.

I don't disagree with the idea that they could have more actively chased a qualifer (especially being located in close proximity to one of the country's best indoor tracks). You are right. It is not asking much.

BUT, the fact is that they didn't. And until you or I know why they didn't, I'll sleep well knowing I'll see a better race next Friday with them in it.

[scott c]

From the 2005 guide book:

"Entries are from team that have recorded or anticipate recording 10:40 or faster in Carnival-approved indoor or outdoor meets prior to April 18. From these entries, approximately 15 teams will be selected based on meet performances prior to April 18."

It's all a matter of of opinion at this point, but I would guess the key phrase to King and Scotty is "based on meet performance" whereas George and I are reading the words "or anticipate" and "will be selected."

[78Champ]

This is a half-serious question, but did Webb's South Lakes teams run an official "qualifier" both of the years they got in?

2001 - 10:05.72 at NIC for second place to the Jeffersons lead Atlantic-Deray, FL team.

2000 - 10:25.4 run on March 25, 2000.

JW

[scott c]

2001 - 10:05.72 at NIC for second place to the Jeffersons lead Atlantic-Deray, FL team.

2000 - 10:25.4 run on March 25, 2000.

JW

Whew, good thing I said half-serious :o

[78Champ]

From the 2005 guide book:

"Entries are from team that have recorded or anticipate recording 10:40 or faster in Carnival-approved indoor or outdoor meets prior to April 18. From these entries, approximately 15 teams will be selected based on meet performances prior to April 18."

It's all a matter of of opinion at this point, but I would guess the key phrase to King and Scotty is "based on meet performance" whereas George and I are reading the words "or anticipate" and "will be selected."

The term "anticipate recording" allows the committee to extrapolate times from "meet performances" of individuals from the same team in determining who to invite. How do we know that the team that would have been invited was not a foreign team who's time would also have been extrapolated? Personally, I'd rather see them take NN over the import team.

If NN had taken a shot with there "A" team and run 10:43, then I would have a problem with their invite.

JW

[king99]

Scotty as usual has it right. The Webb team was ridiculously good his senior year...and I think unless mistaken, they ran very close to Atlantic team at Arcaida that year..before they ran their 9:49 Nat Record


Putting a team in that had all the opportunities that are up here at the Armory and did not run the time is ludicicous

a team that ran 10:43 is suspect..period, how much you want to give Barnicle? 15 secs? 18? 23? They do not win here no matter what

I am done with this


Teams that legit ran 10:35 or better should be pissed

[fourjz]

Forgive me if I overlooked the seedings but where's the vaunted and much talked about 4x 8 girls team for Eleanor Roosevelt(MD) :confused: ?

[GeorgieTheK]

Teams that legit ran 10:35 or better should be pissed

Which team ran 10:35 or better and didn't get in? As far as I can tell, only Ward Mellville (NY) - 10:41.59, and Roselle Catholic 10:43.7 ran faster than Newton North and didn't get in.

Any help here?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

The term "anticipate recording" allows the committee to extrapolate times from "meet performances" of individuals from the same team in determining who to invite. How do we know that the team that would have been invited was not a foreign team who's time would also have been extrapolated? Personally, I'd rather see them take NN over the import team.

If NN had taken a shot with there "A" team and run 10:43, then I would have a problem with their invite.

JW

If you're not careful here you'll go down the slippery slope of taking the four PRs or seasonal bests, putting them together and and saying that the team should qualify based on that.

[78Champ]

Whew, good thing I said half-serious :o

As opposed to 800m-serious????

JW

[78Champ]

Scotty as usual has it right. The Webb team was ridiculously good his senior year...and I think unless mistaken, they ran very close to Atlantic team at Arcaida that year..before they ran their 9:49 Nat Record


10:03.x to 10:05.72 at NIC, as I posted earlier. Did they meet up again at Arcadia or do you think NIC is what you are referring to?

JW

[king99]

I thought they met up at Arcadia, as well, Webb on the double back from beating hall and jeffersons at a mile, then a 4:04 1600 anchor??

[Decaf]

I cannot believe that people think the PENN organizers owe anything to anyone. This meet is private, so they can take whomever they want. the organizers are in charge of making their meet the best it can be, and newton north adds a great team with a great runner from an un-represented state. Newton North will be top 5, at least. they added the comments about "predicted times" to allow for teams like NN. do you think any of those irish teams had DM qualifiers? i hear that event is huge over in europe. so, what's the problem? we should all appreciate the fact that PENN has 4X100s and 4X400s for just about any team that wants to run.
maybe we should all boycott PENN...scott c, could you put that request in saturday's rally section?

[GeorgieTheK]

If you're not careful here you'll go down the slippery slope of taking the four PRs or seasonal bests, putting them together and and saying that the team should qualify based on that.

I don't think that's exactly the logic the Penn employed. But rather, they looked at a team that ran very close to the qualifying mark (10:40) without the #1 h.s. distance runner in the country at this point (as well as another key leg).

They looked at the entries and decided that it was more than reasonable to assume that adding Barnicle and the other guy would not only put the team under 10:40, but would also put them near the top of the field.

It's not as if Newton North has run nothing at all - as I've said before, there are only TWO teams that have run faster than them that weren't invited (and we don't know for sure if they even attempted entry!) Anybody else on the list is either:

a. in the race
b. in the 4 x 8
c. has a runner in an individual race
d. is geographically challenged.

Do people think they WON'T be a factor in this race?

[RBroady]

heres something to think about....

how will the inexperience of NN running this event play a factor in the race, not to say they have inexperienced runners, its obviuse they have guys to fill each leg of the relay, but they have only ran the DM once this season? could this effect them?

[Kalaby]

Ultimately the Penn selection committee has the last word on this, and as a fan I'm happy that they put Newton North in the race. With that said, I certainly feel badly for any of the very small handful of teams that may have been displaced from the DMR by NN getting the nod.

[king99]

Hey as long as they are consistent, one would hope.

I just cannot rememeber anyone getting in that had not run a time , at least in quite a while, I am not counting foreign entries as they reserved spots for them some years.

[Decaf]

what's the difference between foreign athletes and a great team from the states?

[king99]

Ohh come on , all theses post into this and thats the point you would make?

Surely you know these two concepts are major league different. ;)

It had long been part of the Penn thing to invite one or two Foreign teams into Big Distance relays , so those spots must have been set aside.

This is entirely different like it or not than letting teams in when, EVERYONE else in race has a legit Q time and ONE team does not.This is my opinion, does not have to be shared by anyone else at all.

This MAY have ended after Jamaican team ran over. 12 minutes and received , wrongly I might add, the cheer for "trying" but running slow.

They were not injured, did not have a horrific fall, or appear to be handicapped.

[GeorgieTheK]

This is entirely different like it or not than letting teams in when, EVERYONE else in race has a legit Q time and ONE team does not.This is my opinion, does not have to be shared by anyone else at all.


It's not just one team - there are actually two teams - Long Beach Poly has only a 10:43 to their credit so far this year - same as NN.

And I'll disagree on what a "legit" Q time is - the time of 10:40 is listed, but nowhere does it say that teams that don't achieve this won't be considered at all. As I pointed out before, there are only 2 teams that have run faster than NN that aren't in the race (both less than 2 seconds faster, both over 10:40)- and we don't even know if they attempted to enter!

And I believe it was a team from the Bahamas that ran the awful DMR in 2002.

[king99]

George. you can disagree all you want, and that is your opinion. I am looking for the year, where the comittee "let" a team in with a time like 10:43?



For some reason you have a lot of intel on NN, I say that they need to stretch almost everything to be in this race. you need 600 guy at 1:21 to jack to a half, unrealistic? probably not, but does he even have a scracth 800 mark of note. You bring up the 4:25 miler.I think 3:10 is too liberal, you do not for him.

The deal with Penn and a great coach once told me this, GREAT runners will run great..good runners or the kid who needs to really PR to put you in it, most likely, I said most likely will not happen , in fact generally they will run below their PR in big spots.

Rememeber, I said generally, there are always exceptions.

Last year there wer 5 legs out of 13 that ran under 3:10, that I can find.

Even Fiorvaranti and lemastro ran over 3;12

[Decaf]

they ran 10:43 without the millrose champ...a guy who just broke 9 minutes for 2 miles. i'd say they are ready to roll.

[king99]

I guess, if you are giving them 28 seconds improvement for barnicle, and another leg?

thats giving barnicle lets say, 20 seconds of that improvement and other guy 8?

You guy are optimists of the first order, I applaud that, I don;t see it.It's an awful lot of maybes for a race this big, and other guys first tiem..I have no doubt that Barnicle will run 4:10 type 1600 at least or is capable..if in contact

Its the other guys I would be watching

[MaroonNews]

1 Atlantic Community, Delray 9:57.88
2 South Lakes, Reston, Virginia 10:04.55

Splits for Atlantic: 3:03.2 (Sean Jefferson.), 51.2, 1:56.4, 4:07 (John Jefferson.).
Splits for South Lakes: 3:09.9 (R. Smith), 50.74, 2:00, 4:04 (Webb).

John Dye made these comments
"Webb blazed a 1:57 half to close within 2 seconds of John Jefferson, but paid for it later as John Jefferson ran negative splilts (2:05 and 2:02)."

"Webb's 4:04 split added to his 4:01.81 victory over Ryan Hall 3 hours earlier surely added up to one of the greatest meets ever for a prep middle distance runner. And John Jefferson's 4:05.54 mile (2nd to Webb) and 4:07 DMR anchor combination would also have to rank on any all-time list of such things."

[85viking]

Atlantic had a substantial led on SL and Webb opened pretty aggressively, ! want to say 57/1:58 and he suffered for it later.
I would definitely agree with you on the 'greatest mid-distance' prep performance ever IF I wouldnt have watched 'the triple' a couple weeks later at his district meet.

[GeorgieTheK]

For some reason you have a lot of intel on NN, I say that they need to stretch almost everything to be in this race. you need 600 guy at 1:21 to jack to a half, unrealistic? probably not, but does he even have a scracth 800 mark of note. You bring up the 4:25 miler.I think 3:10 is too liberal, you do not for him.



Ok - here's what I know of Newton North:

1200: David Polgar: 13:02 @ VCP; 4:25+ for the full mile @ Mass State Finals (champion) - leader's splits in the race were: 64, 2:12; 3:22.9; also ran 2:33 1k indoors; at the Mass group meet he doubled: 4:31.76 (with a 29.2 last 200) full mile, and 2:00 on the 4 x 8.

I don't think it is a stretch to say that he can run 3:10 - whether he will or not is a different story - but you can say that about just about any runner in the field. I don't think the CN or CBA guys are guaranteed of running anything either.

400: Dave Silfer: ran 36.65 300m indoors, ran on their 4 x 4 that ran 3:27.00 (the anchor leg ran 50.7 there); also ran a leg on the Mass h.s. all star team @ the USATF indoor meet. I'll say CONSERVATIVELY that he'll run 51.0

800: Jed Carpenter: 1:21.42 600m (also 1:22.08 earlier in the year) - here's the biggest risk - a quarter-miler moving up; but he's run some very good 600s - and more than once; I don't think it is unreasonable to picture him running 57/60 for a 1:57. He is definitely the weak point - if he runs poorly - say 2:00, then it might be too much for Barnicle (then again...)

1600: Chris Barnicle: has lost one race this year - FL finals; handled NJ's best miler with ease @ millrose; handled the best 2 milers in the country @ arcadia, yada, yada, yada: 4:10 anchor - maybe faster?

3:10 + 51 + 1:57 + 4:10 = 10:08

I don't think CBA can run 10:08 (though I'd love to see them do it). Colts Neck has the potential to run 10:07/8, but everything must go right for them.

And I think NN first two guys can run a bit faster - the key will be the 800 leg.
They might even be able to run 10:04/5 - which might be out of the range of CN.

As for the leadoff - well, sometimes it's slow at Penn, sometimes it's not. Last year Dan McMan. didn't let the race mess around - and hammered from the get go - guys like fiorvaranti and lemastro were left in the wake; I will say this: if the race goes slow - the kid from NN can close with anyone.

[king99]

Great work, while I may not agree with you, your support discussion is excellent

How do you know so much about NN? Anyway?

[GeorgieTheK]

How do you know so much about NN? Anyway?

i spend an inordinate amount of time on dyestat.com!

seriously - the mass links on the board give some excellent stuff about NN. they have a really good all-around track team. from their marks in the other events, they'd be a lock to win just about any conference/group meet in jersey. even without barnicle, they'd be very competitive in state meets.

[SouthJerseyDoc]

After reading through these posts, I'd have to agree with King. It's rare that a team will PR in the DM at Penn; especially if that team is an east coast team without a Webb or Jefferson type runner. Barney is very good but I don't see him running a Webb like time...and the other runners clearly are not going to provide the splits to go 10:08. You need your 1200 runner to run around 3:05 for that kind of time to occur, and that's not going to happen. I have wittnessed many good teams run 10:16 to 10:18 in the winter, even win natiional champoinships, and not run those times at Penn. At best, I see Barney's team between 10:20 - 10:25.

[Scotty]

GK,
I agreed with you earlier in the thread with regard to Newton's ability, and I am even more convinced after you broke down the legs. As I said, they are a DEFINITE top 3 in that field, and will give CN a lot of trouble.

I still believe they should have posted a Q'er. It seems ridiculous that they would have "not bothered" to do so. However, I would be surprised to see them slower than 10:15flat next week.

[king99]

Scotty, I agree also now that GK broke down what he thinks ..however..see how little room they really have.

Barnicle is good, but he is not, Webb, Liquori, Byrne, Carlotti, Stahr or even Inman who.
ran 4:07 yards split

They could just as easily go:

3:13.5
51.5
2:00

be disconnected and have Barnicle run a very average even for him 4:13.5..that would put them over 10:18

They key as always is up front, Barnicle can get near but he is not some 4:06 1600 guy. .

[king99]

Scotty makes another execllent point..NN had opportunities to run good Q'er,they should not have been excused in my view as their guys were NOT hurt..their big three all put up indoor marks.

[bongturk]

just out of curiosity, what was kevin byrne's best mile time before that 4:04 anchor? he certainly was nowhere in that race when he got the baton(13th or 14th?) and ran down all but one guy. i don't think barnicle will run 4:04 but he is very strong and may go sub 4:10 if he is chasing from way back. i'm glad they are in the race and wish loyola was too, but i do think that there is ample time to run a qualifier and no one who didn't run one should be accepted. i didn't realize they(penn selection committee) had done this before and if they haven't i think it sets a bad precedent. however, it is an invitational race so they can invite whomever they want to and this year it should make for a very entertaining race. it's too bad more attention hasn't been paid to that. i just hope the weather cooperates so everyone has a chance to run fast.

[runxc08]

I was looking at Georgie's research, and I personally think that Polgar will put NN infront of CBA and only a second or two off Tedoff. As has been said before its hard for teams to run much faster at Penn then they did at the Armory. If you look at Polgar's stats they all indicate that he is faster than Horel. His xc mark isn't bad and I believe that his 4:25 yards is actually faster than Horel. After the 4 NN could actually be out infront of CN, the CN 400 runner will most definitely lose some ground to the kid from NN, if their team ran 3:27 you have to have your kids down around 52 at the worst probably faster which would pull them even with CN after 1600. Then comes the 800 where NN looks to get beaten pretty handily by CN, Carpenter is liabilty here. I do think that he can keep it reasonably close, no more than a 5 second lose. At worst I see a 154 and 159 for carpenter possibly much better though. This puts NN down 5, and I dont want to say that Barni could run down Forys from 5 down but I wouldnt mind seeing him try (personal opinion if they are within 5-7 Barnicle will bring them back in it). Do I think that NN deserves to be in the race abosultely, am i looking forward to see them got at it yo ubetter believe it, do I think that its right that they got in without running under 10:40 no.

[MaroonNews]

This is the list of high school entres received for the 2005 Penn Relays as of 4/15/2005 at 6 pm.

School Name............................ Boys .....Girls.....Amount..Member
........................................Entries... Entries...Owed....Status
Ward Melville (East Setauket, NY).......[no]......Yes........0......Member
Roselle Catholic (Roselle, NJ)..........Yes.......[no].......0......Member


It would appear that Roselle Catholic entered boys in some events while Ward Mellville did not. So whether they submitted an application for the 4x800 is an open question.

[RBroady]

runxc08, that is pending if horel leads off, i would imagine they have leach leadoff in a race that goes out as hard as penn

[runxc08]

I dont really think that CBA can hang with them either way. If leach leads off they would have a lead but Barnicle would beat Horel by a fair amount I feel that it will be closer with CN. I was just using Horel as an example of how I felt that Polgar could run.

[Reuben Frank]

FYI ... the 4x1 and 4x1 heats/sections were posted tonight

girls 4x1 (http://www.pennathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=24021&SPID=559&DB_OEM_ID=1700&ATCLID=117714)
girls 4x4 (http://www.pennathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=24021&SPID=559&DB_OEM_ID=1700&ATCLID=117710)
boys 4x1 (http://www.pennathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=24021&SPID=559&DB_OEM_ID=1700&ATCLID=117713)
boys 4x4 (http://www.pennathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=24021&SPID=559&DB_OEM_ID=1700&ATCLID=117712) (does camden seem to be missing?)

speaking of Penn DMR qualifying, does anybody remember how Willingboro qualified in 1983, when it won that classic battle with Bernards, both at 10:00.9?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

just out of curiosity, what was kevin byrne's best mile time before that 4:04 anchor?

4:08 indoors on a crummy Garden track.

[king99]

CBA can run 10:15 just get there a different way;

run leach at 12: 3:08
400 50.0
800 1:56
Horel 4:20-21?

I will be surprised if winner runs faster than just under this

[king99]

I look forward to seeing Forys having to be at his very best here, he is a monster talent who seems to know how to get there at the line.

I do agree that if barnicle is within up to 5 behind he will be difficult to deal with, his 8:56 winning easy does bode well for huge anchor, I just have not seen him much at a mile, but since you had him at 4:11 when he had not yet run under 9 you;d have to figure him for 4:10 or better for 1600

[scott c]

Scotty makes another execllent point..NN had opportunities to run good Q'er,they should not have been excused in my view as their guys were NOT hurt..their big three all put up indoor marks.

Aren't you actually seconding Scotty's seconding of your own point here? ;) or thirding? fourthing? fifthing?

[king99]

Indeed, when great minds think alike..it does sometimes need to be reinforced!! :D

[backintheday]

4:08 indoors on a crummy Garden track.

Prior to Byrne's 4:08 at Millrose, he also ran 4:08 in winning the HS mile at the Philadelphia Track Classic (?) on a small banked track in the Spectrum.

[king99]

you know? hardly anyone ever recognizes this or brings it up

[Joe Lanzalotto]

you know? hardly anyone ever recognizes this or brings it up

I had completely forgotten about the first 4:08. That track in Phillie had to be as bad as or worse than the Garden. Byrne sure was a strong guy.

[Paul Schwartz]

Sorry to be parochial here but what about Ridgewood's chances -- especially in view of the posts that have been made about no one is likely to break their indoor time.
Ridgewood ran 10:21 at arcadia two weeks ago in a 31 team field with williams running 3:07 and buckley 1:57 with cator, in a gusty wind leading most of the way breaking that wind (no pun intended) and finishing in 4:23. I realize that unless he's ready to run 4:18 or faster (which is possible, he ran 4:20.6 open last year) he is in danger of being run down by CN or a close NN.

But I think their chances against CBA (against whom they had several good indoor races) are pretty good and if they can run with CBA they might be able to win if there's no super squad.

Comments?

[scott c]

Not just Paul, but I've noticed a lot of people selling CBA short. Yes, they had a to regroup after losing a pair of close ones this winter. Just knowing their philosophy that "Penn Relays Friday" may be the most important day of the year, I expect the Colts to be a very big part of the race.

As other have said, however, Forys and Barnicle are the best two anchors in the field and all contenders will have to find a way to get away from one or both of these two.

[Decaf]

why is everyone so hung up on this "nobody PB's at PENN". i am sorry, but that is ridiculous. tons of teams have PB'd over the years. i just don't understand that logic. If the weather is good, CBA and Colts Neck will be faster than they previously ran.

[Paul Schwartz]

Scott

How am I selling CBA short? What I said was that Ridgewood has run some pretty good races against CBA this year (true) and if they can stay with CBA at Penn they might have a good chance to win it.

Paul

[GeorgieTheK]

Not just Paul, but I've noticed a lot of people selling CBA short. Yes, they had a to regroup after losing a pair of close ones this winter. Just knowing their philosophy that "Penn Relays Friday" may be the most important day of the year, I expect the Colts to be a very big part of the race.

As other have said, however, Forys and Barnicle are the best two anchors in the field and all contenders will have to find a way to get away from one or both of these two.

The problem with Ridgewood and CBA is that they will be going up against 2 team with big stud anchors - CN and NN. Unless they have a significant lead after 3 legs, they aren't going to win it.

CBA's problem is that Leach can't run 2 legs. He's by far the best leadoff runner, and if he runs the leadoff leg would most likely be in the lead. But that leaves Horel on the anchor - and while he's a very good runner, even the 3200 is too short a distance for him. I could see him running a PR, but I couldn't see him really blasting an anchor leg from the front, all alone.

Ridgewood, from the looks of it, is in the same boat. If those splits for Ridgewood are accurate, that means they had a 52/53 quarter leg. That negates almost any advantage the 1200 leg had - and with the CN and CBA 800 legs running around 1:55 - they might not even have a lead at the final exchange. Regardless, I can't see their anchor running with Forys and Barnicle - or even Leach, when they put the hammer down. However, I can easily see Ridgewood picking off teams (maybe a tying up CBA) for third or even second if something goes bad up front.

From what I see though, it's mainly a 2 team race - with a lot of question marks.

How has CN carried their form?
Can NN guys run @ Penn - especially their 800 leg?
What will CBA's order be - and will it matter?
What can Barnicle run on the anchor - and will it be enough if he's behind.

Too bad I won't see it play out in person.

[king99]

A couple of things..decaf..no one said NO ONE PR'S At Penn

What at least I said,..is great runners run great and have big moments in big spots..not great but good or better than average will or may run well, but most likely NOT great

On the other thing, leach as an anchor's advantage has been slightly exaggerated here over Horel. Horel has splt 4:21.xx,and to my knowledege Leach has run under that three times ever?

The advantage gained by running him at 12 easily outweighs him being in never never land on anchor

[Paramount]

A quick Barnacle thought after being at Arcadia and watching him win that two mile:

Barnacle easily handled Matuzak controlling the race for most of the second mile. A week later Matuzak anchors Loyola's DMR in 4:09 at Mt. SAC.

Matuzak has great range as defending CA state 1600 champ and one of the all time fastest Mt. SAC XC times. His 4:09 shows he's in good form.

From what I saw that night, Barnacle will go under 4:10 at Penn if he needs to do it.

[Dalau]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but Polgar has run a 1:55r 800m, so if you put that together with his 4:25 mile, it's good for a 3:06 1200m. Put his 1000m and mile together and its good for a 3:08 1200m.

I think they'll run under 10:10.

3:08
51 (even though they have some guys at 50 or faster)
1:58 (at slowest for Jed if he runs)
4:11 (Barnicle can probably run fast than this if he needs to)
=
10:08

[king99]

If Polgar runs 3:08 ..saying that NN will be there througout is an understatement.


Okay? Let's go.

Predictions and why?

CN
CBA
NN ,

I would think would be the chalk? Unless I missed something?

[GeorgieTheK]

If Polgar runs 3:08 ..saying that NN will be there througout is an understatement.


Okay? Let's go.

Predictions and why?

CN
CBA
NN ,

I would think would be the chalk? Unless I missed something?

NN
CN
CBA
Ridgewood

i think that positions 2,3,4 will be very close as guys start tying up.

[RBroady]

CN
NN
CBA
n. rockland
ridgewood

i think NN's inexperience at running this relay is gonna get to them on the first three legs, barnicle wont be able to catch forys

[Reuben Frank]

1. Colts Neck, 10:11.37

2. Newton North 10:14.21

3. CBA 10:15.76

4. Council Rock North 10:15.89 (gotta stick up for my district, even though they haven't broken 10:35!)

[Joe Lanzalotto]

1. Colts Neck, 10:11.37

2. Newton North 10:14.21

3. CBA 10:15.76

4. Council Rock North 10:15.89 (gotta stick up for my district, even though they haven't broken 10:35!)

Wow! Down to the hundreth! Cannot help but be impressed by your clairvoyance, or I will be if you are right!

[MaroonNews]

Weather permitting, I will be there at the start of the final turn to get some pictures for the viewers at home :)

Not sure if I will be able to make the 4x800 trials in the AM (did last year, but I'm older now), but if anyone wants me to catch their team in my shots (King, if I'm there you are covered) send a PM and I will see what I can do.