Who would win in a 5000

[Achilles]

There was one of these threads that was started a few months ago about the 1500. I think El G won in the end with Seb Coe being up there and maybe Jim Ryun. I am not positive on this though. I kind of would like to see who everyone thinks is the best 5000 runner of all time. From all eras.

This is with no rabbits, current conditions/tracks/shoes/training methods in an Olympic type stage.

In no particular order:

Lasse Viren: 4 Gold medals at the olympics, beat solid fields in 72 and 76. Very good at "peaking". Not as good of times as todays elites but was a winner. **PR of 13:16 in 1972. He may have set the WR and held it for a short time but I am not sure. He may have just gotten close instead.

Emil Zatopek: Big time winner as well, ran 60 years ago. First man to break 29 in the 10k and 14 minutes in the 5k (I think, if someone could help me out with some of these guys PR's I would really appreciate it and I will edit the first post).

Bernard Lagat: Victories recently over Bekele, Kipchoge, Mottram and many others over 5k. Very fast last lap, intelligent racer and a PR of 12:59 (twice) with extremely fast last laps. Beat Bekele with a 51low last lap a couple years ago and won the WC's double last year.

El Guerrouj: Similar runner to Lagat but generally faster over every distance. 3:26.00, 7:23, 12:50 PRs. Double goal in 04 over Bekele Kipchoge, and various other Kenyans. Silver the year before at the WC's over Bekele but behind Kipchoge.

Eluid Kipchoge: Recently has run 12:46, won the WC's over El G and Bekele, 2nd at last years WC's just behind Lagat. 26:49 10k PR and is also quick over 3k with a PR of 7:27.7.

Kennesia Bekele: WR holder but winner of no major titles over 5k. Has two of the fastest 4 5k's ever run. WR holder at 10k and has a very fast 3k PR from last year of 7:25.

Daniel Komen: Fastest 3k time every, possibly best distance WR there is out there right now at 7:20.67. 3rd fastest 5k ever at 12:39 and has fastest 2 mile of anyone being under 8 minutes twice. Has excellent mile speed at 3:29 and 3:46 low.

Haile Geb: 2nd fastest man ever. 4th fastest man ever over 3k and 2nd fastest man at 1500 and 3k indoors. No world titles or major titles over 5k but very very rarely lost in the prime of his career at 5k. 3k PR of 7:25.0 and 2 mile PR of 8:01.0.

Said Auoita: Last person to hold the 5k and 1500 WR at the same time. First man ever under 13:00 and was in the first race ever under 3:30 but was a close 2nd to Steve Cram. Very fast over 800 meters (fastest guy in this field) with a 1:43.8 PR (JUST behind Alan Webb on the all time lists). Various Olympic medals/Wr's during his time.

Paavo Nurmi: Great champion from many many years ago. 9 Gold medals and 3 silver medals, however a bunch were from XC which is obviously no longer in the Olympics. 39 world records over a span of 55 races. Times obviously are not very close at all to todays runners but this is a discussion that should cross over many generations.

Miruts Yifter: Double Gold in 80, excellent at shifting pace. Probably more of a 10,000 meter specialist but a few of the guys on here would fall into that category and still run real well in this discussion. 13:13 PR in 1977.

If I forgot anyone, please let me know I will be happy to add them because I am doing this pretty much mostly off memory besides a few of the times.

Vote for 4 people in the first poll and I will narrow the field down a little bit and then it will be done again to figure out the winners.

Again, if anyone has any times that they know of in terms of guys PR's, let me know and I will add them and if anyone suggests someone else that should definitely be in the discussion let me know. Most of the guys are more recent than I would like. Some other guys I was thinking of were Ron Clarke, Moorcroft, POSSIBLY Stephan Cherono/Shaheen, Bitok, John Ngugi, Tergat, and Henry Rono.

The discussion should have people at their peak. Dominance over peers should weigh pretty heavily I would assume as well.

If someone knows how to add an option to a poll please let me know. Thanks.

[Saint Ashlar]

El G.

Way to rob me of my first ibp.

[Achilles]

El G.

Way to rob me of my first ibp.

Sorry about that, I didnt have the poll up the first time. You and I know who had the first one.

[attack the hill]

The discussion should have people at their peak. Dominance over peers should weigh pretty heavily I would assume as well.



Viren dominated in the Olympics, the only championship race at the time. He could run fast and kick, he could sit and kick. GOAT in the 5k IMO.

[bogman]

You left out Miruts Yifter - perhaps the best ability to change pace in the history of the 5,000 and definitely one of the greatest talents at the distance.

He would have been better known if he weren't the victim of Olympic boycotts and his own mistakes. At the '72 Olympics he took the bronze in the 10,000, but inexplicably arrived at the stadium too late for the start of the 5,000 final. In '76, Ethiopia boycotted the Montreal Olympics, and the world was deprived of Miruts in his prime. In '80, he won double golds in the 5,000 and 10,000, but, because of the US boycott, didn't get much exposure on this side of the Atlantic.

[Saint Ashlar]

Haile Geb: 2nd fastest man ever. 2nd fastest man ever over 3k. No world titles or major titles over 5k but very very rarely lost in the prime of his career at 5k. 3k PR of 7:25.0 and 2 mile PR of 8:01.0.



Don't mean to bust your balls here, but El G holds that distiction.

[Equinox2100]

you said vote for 4, so i went el g, lagat, viren, zatu.

el g an lagat for solid PR's + tactical genius', Viren for peaking, and Zatu for the balls out win with modern technology

[Dragonsoul]

Hicham El Guerrouj I think. He got his energy from playing The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion! :)!!!

http://www.r4nt.com/images/v6/article/large_pic/213/oblivion_lg.jpg

[conabud]

voted Komen.

[KKreme15]

komen, el g, lagat, kb

[maverick]

viren, zatopek, nurmi, el g. Went with nurmi because he had the ability to go out and just push the pace by himself very evenly and that is a good ability to have against kickers.

[xcrunna]

Trying to factor in eras:
In a fast race my top 4 is- Geb, Bekele, Komen, Viren
In a long kick(1000m to go) it is- Geb, Aouita, Bekele, Viren
In a later kick (400m to go) it is- El Guerrouj, Kipchoge, Lagat, Auouita

I'm still finding it difficult to compare across the early eras of Nurmi and Zatopek.

[cmurph]

I've never understood the inclusion of guys like Nurmi and Zatopek in things like this. I mean they were obviously dominant in their eras, but they'd get demolished. To me it's no different than putting like German Fernandez in this poll and having Maverick say something like "I have to go with German because of his ability to push the pace and run even splits is a good ability to have against kickers." Well okay, but it doesn't matter when he's a minute slower than they are

[maverick]

I've never understood the inclusion of guys like Nurmi and Zatopek in things like this. I mean they were obviously dominant in their eras, but they'd get demolished. To me it's no different than putting like German Fernandez in this poll and having Maverick say something like "I have to go with German because of his ability to push the pace and run even splits is a good ability to have against kickers." Well okay, but it doesn't matter when he's a minute slower than they are

you have to account for technology and natural human progression, otherwise the idea of GOAT is worthless. Of course times are going to be faster now, but can you blame nurmi/zatopek for being born ahead of the others? If you do not think they are worthy of being considered in a discussion of all time runners, then you really do not know running.

[Achilles]

Don't mean to bust your balls here, but El G holds that distiction.

You are correct, I have no idea why I wrote that. Maybe I was thinking indoors at the time. I was pretty tired. I even wrote El G's PR in the first post.

I will fix it. Is there anyone people think I should add before its too late?

[hoegher]

you have to account for technology and natural human progression, otherwise the idea of GOAT is worthless. Of course times are going to be faster now, but can you blame nurmi/zatopek for being born ahead of the others? If you do not think they are worthy of being considered in a discussion of all time runners, then you really do not know running.

A discussion of all-timers is different than a discussion of who would win in a race.

[cmurph]

you have to account for technology and natural human progression, otherwise the idea of GOAT is worthless. Of course times are going to be faster now, but can you blame nurmi/zatopek for being born ahead of the others? If you do not think they are worthy of being considered in a discussion of all time runners, then you really do not know running.

Well then are you saying that you think that if Nurmi were around today he'd be as good as Geb, Bekele, Komen, etc.? I mean if that's what you're saying then I guess I understand a little bit more although I think if they were around today they would be mediocre or worse by current standards. I feel like back then you could beat people if you had a modest amount of talent and stumbled on a halfway decent method of training. I don't think these guys were freakish talents like the other guys on the list, they just didn't have completely worthless training. To put them in the same league as a runner such as Geb is laughable I think and to say that in a hypothetical race a 14:20s guy beats a sub 12:40 guy is even more laughable. What's Nurmi gonna do, close in 51?

[Achilles]

A discussion of all-timers is different than a discussion of who would win in a race.

Its easy though, if you dont think theyd be up in the race...dont vote for them.

There PR's are quite a bit slower than the rest of the guys, but NONE of these guys has the credentials that Zatopek and Nurmi have in championship/WR discussions. The only one who comes remotely close is Geb in the WR discussion.

[Brumund-Smith]

Paavo Nurmi is not all that impressive to me. He was considered a cheat back then because he trained. So basically he was beating up on a bunch of out-of-shape guys.

[pln09]

Many Africans can absolutely crush anything Nurmi ran off of very little training.

That's not because of better tracks or better training, it's because the athletes are simply better.

Voting:
Geb
Bekele
Komen
El G

[Achilles]

Some more facts to help people decide if they are interested:

El G and Lagat although faired very well in 5k's at major championships are relatively inexperienced 5k guys and Lagat has not been in a very fast race yet. El G ran low 12:50's a couple of times but he was never involved in a race that was won in low 12:40's which a few of the guys on this list certainly could have run. I dont see Lagat being capable of running low 12:40's either.

Bekele is very experienced at 5k but has also lost a lot more than he probably should have. Lost close races to excellent runners but none that match his credentials. 12:37 is very quick and in a fast race he would at least have to be in the mix.

Komen didnt have many peers but he had one very good one in Geb. Didnt lose a whole lot of races but lost a very fast race in Europe to Geb 12:41-12:44 (the fastest 2nd place time ever by a little over 2 seconds). Had the best 3k speed and one of the best mile times in this field. Would potentially be there in a fast or slow race.

Nurmi and Zatopek were from a long time ago and it is much harder to compare what they did than what the old timer 1500 guys did. Both were very dominant in their time but how would that translate to now? Both were tough and were winners but are the africans just better? A lot of people just seem to think so.

Viren was excellent in championship races, undefeated at 2 seperate olympics in the finals. However, his PR is not as fast as some of the Africans and did run a long time ago. He also struggled on the European circuit compared to his Olympic dominance. Won races in Europe but also lost a lot and didnt always get 2nd or 3rd either, finished further back than a lot of these guys did in European races.

Auoita didnt lose much, had great miling speed and also had a PR under 13 minutes unlike a few of the much older guys. Very very good 3k speed and the best 800 speed out of the group. Did not lose very often although did try to run races that he probably shouldnt have at the Olympics and it cost him some medals. If there on the last lap, could be dangerous.

Geb beat Komen head to head and for a 6-8 year period was almost unbeatable over 5k. Did lose to Daniel Komen by 7 seconds though in 1996 right before his dominance really started. From 97-2002 ran low 13's or under over 10 times without losing. Had 3:31i speed and also great 3k speed. Closed in under 4 minutes during his world record after shotty pace making the first 3k. Very tough to drop and very tough to outkick.

Yifter (who isnt on the poll cause I added late) was great at shifting pace (one of the first people to do so) but all of the current Africans can do this. They shift between 60's and 64's very easily seemingly. Yifter did win double gold though as a poster said previously and was strong and quick and accelerated very fast.

Hope this helps a little bit.

[xcrunna]

Auoita didnt lose much, had great miling speed and also had a PR under 13 minutes unlike a few of the much older guys. Very very good 3k speed and the best 800 speed out of the group.

I know El G doesn't technically have a faster 800 PR, but I do think he was no worse than a 1:43 high guy. I just think 3:26 is too far out there for anything slower. Obviously, he was aerobically very, very strong.

[010]

Ok. In a few years Nike will put together a "Rocky Balboa" style computer simulation with all these guys, plus Pre. It will be based off of modern times, with the runners in their 5k prime. The running community will rally behind it as it will be played on ESPN. John Madden will announce with I don't know, lets say Frank Shorter.

The race: The old schoolers Zatopek and Nurmi will take it out FAST. After three laps of 60 second splits, Pre and Aouita take over. *1600- 4:01. Pre and Aouita and a few random people keep the second mile pretty fast. *3200- 8:05. After another lap, the true 5k guys take over. I'm talking about Geb, Bekele, and Kipchoge. The pace is falling a little because it's been too fast. *4k- 10:08. When they have 500-600 to go, 3 guys make their moves. Viren, El G, and Lagat are leading now. Komen is sitting in the 5th position (Bekele, Geb, and Kipchoge are still there). John Madden says "don't count out Komen just yet." A foreshadowing of what's to come. They enter the backstretch (300m to go), and its been too fast too long for El G and Lagat. Komen makes his move with 200 to go. *4800- 12:10. It looks like its all Komen, but Kipchoge surges for the win! Komen tightens up in the last 20m.
1. Kipchoge 12:37.13
2. Bekele 12:37.58
3. Geb 12:38.04
4. Komen 12:38.10
5. Viren 12:38.96
6. El G 12:40.26
7. Lagat 12:40.78
8. Pre 12:43.11

This is exactly what will happen in this Nike computer simulation in 2011. Refer to this when that happens. You'll be amazed.

[pln09]

Ok. In a few years Nike will put together a "Rocky Balboa" style computer simulation with all these guys, plus Pre. It will be based off of modern times, with the runners in their 5k prime. The running community will rally behind it as it will be played on ESPN. John Madden will announce with I don't know, lets say Frank Shorter.

The race: The old schoolers Zatopek and Nurmi will take it out FAST. After three laps of 60 second splits, Pre and Aouita take over. *1600- 4:01. Pre and Aouita and a few random people keep the second mile pretty fast. *3200- 8:05. After another lap, the true 5k guys take over. I'm talking about Geb, Bekele, and Kipchoge. The pace is falling a little because it's been too fast. *4k- 10:08. When they have 500-600 to go, 3 guys make their moves. Viren, El G, and Lagat are leading now. Komen is sitting in the 5th position (Bekele, Geb, and Kipchoge are still there). John Madden says "don't count out Komen just yet." A foreshadowing of what's to come. They enter the backstretch (300m to go), and its been too fast too long for El G and Lagat. Komen makes his move with 200 to go. *4800- 12:10. It looks like its all Komen, but Kipchoge surges for the win! Komen tightens up in the last 20m.
1. Kipchoge 12:37.13
2. Bekele 12:37.58
3. Geb 12:38.04
4. Komen 12:38.10
5. Viren 12:38.96
6. El G 12:40.26
7. Lagat 12:40.78
8. Pre 12:43.11

This is exactly what will happen in this Nike computer simulation in 2011. Refer to this when that happens. You'll be amazed.

That's a lot of effort for something stupid.

[Bfig09]

I know El G doesn't technically have a faster 800 PR, but I do think he was no worse than a 1:43 high guy. I just think 3:26 is too far out there for anything slower. Obviously, he was aerobically very, very strong.

I think I read somewhere that he ran 1:42.xx in a time trial
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hicham_El_Guerrouj

[mcrunner23]

where is Rexing?????

[Brumund-Smith]

I'm glad Pre wasn't put in this poll so I don't have to see a bunch of retards actually vote for him

[Sizzlexc]

Viren by doping his way to run under 12:30.

srsly tho, elg

[Evilution]

Galen Rupp

[Ray_Ray]

I'm surprised to see Nurmi not recieving more votes. Not extremely fast times compared to today but definitely one of the most dominant runners ever, considering his domination of his era.

[pln09]

I'm surprised to see Nurmi not recieving more votes. Not extremely fast times compared to today but definitely one of the most dominant runners ever, considering his domination of his era.

He would get absolutely molested in this era.

[cmurph]

I'm surprised to see Nurmi not recieving more votes. Not extremely fast times compared to today but definitely one of the most dominant runners ever, considering his domination of his era.

The question is "who would win in a 5000." Do you think Paavo Nurmi would beat Kenenisa Bekele in a 5000?

[hand banana.]

I think I read somewhere that he ran 1:42.xx in a time trial
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hicham_El_Guerrouj

Excellent source mate.

Got a real source?

[The_Gleas]

Excellent source mate.

Got a real source?

You expect the Moroccan to give out info?

[hand banana.]

You expect the Moroccan to give out info?

I don't care, he's a legend.

But it's okay, because I deleted that info off of Wikipedia.

[Evilution]

Excellent source mate.

Got a real source?

for real, there is no way El G ran 1:42, he could have run 1:46 at best in his prime

his 1500m pr was only 3:26.xx, so even 1:46 is probably pushing it

[Achilles]

I am REAL surprised that Geb is not recieving more votes and VERY surprised that Bekele has as many votes pretty much as El G and more than Komen and Geb.

All of the guys resume's are real good and very impressive, however Bekele loses FAR more often than Komen and Geb lost in their prime. Whether its from miscounting laps or just being tactically inferior to others, he loses.

Bekele's PR is 9+ full seconds faster than anyone he has ever raced in their prime and he loses to Lagat, El G, Kipchoge (not exactly 3 slouches). He is the best time trialer in the field and his 10k world records were extremely impressive (especially running the 2nd half alone) but I think out of these 10-11 guys Bekele does not win very often. I feel pretty confident saying that.

No way he can make the pace fast enough to drop Komen and Geb by himself and if he sits back there doesnt seem much way he could beat El G or Lagat and thats not even mentioning Kipchoge.

Geb was faster over 1500 and lost much less frequently and Komen was much faster over 1500 and 3k. Just my take on it, I didnt even vote.

[Brumund-Smith]

I'm surprised to see Nurmi not recieving more votes. Not extremely fast times compared to today but definitely one of the most dominant runners ever, considering his domination of his era.

Yeah, but as I pointed out earlier, he was running against a bunch of people who never even trained!

[pln09]

I am REAL surprised that Geb is not recieving more votes and VERY surprised that Bekele has as many votes pretty much as El G and more than Komen and Geb.

All of the guys resume's are real good and very impressive, however Bekele loses FAR more often than Komen and Geb lost in their prime. Whether its from miscounting laps or just being tactically inferior to others, he loses.

Bekele's PR is 9+ full seconds faster than anyone he has ever raced in their prime and he loses to Lagat, El G, Kipchoge (not exactly 3 slouches). He is the best time trialer in the field and his 10k world records were extremely impressive (especially running the 2nd half alone) but I think out of these 10-11 guys Bekele does not win very often. I feel pretty confident saying that.

No way he can make the pace fast enough to drop Komen and Geb by himself and if he sits back there doesnt seem much way he could beat El G or Lagat and thats not even mentioning Kipchoge.

Geb was faster over 1500 and lost much less frequently and Komen was much faster over 1500 and 3k. Just my take on it, I didnt even vote.

Geb would probably be my favorite to win. It seems a little absurd to me that Lagat has about as many votes as him.

[Equinox2100]

i think ppl are underestimating the difference in training and form technological advances in the past 70ish years.

zatu trained in MILITARY boots over the winter, running 20 or 40x400 in MILITARY issued clothing on a TRAIL 400m track in SNOW

El G trained at altitude with the best equipment money could buy.

El G's form:
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper859/stills/3cee6290bd20c-1-1.jpg

Zatopek's form:
http://blocs.xtec.cat/santo/files/2008/05/zatopek_57_lg.jpg

note: form distinction, tracks they ran on, quality of timing and officials and other devices.

[xcmiler245]

Voted Geb, El G, Komen, Viren in that order.

Geb in his prime was...well, we all know, AMAZING at 5000m

El G's got the nasty kick and I don't think ever got his best possible look at 5k, i see him more as a 12:44-6 guy than 12:50

Komen was Komen.

If Viren were alive today, he could probably at least hang with some of these guys, given the same advantages they have. He was VERY fit for those two Olympics, albeit from blood doping.

[Ray_Ray]

He would get absolutely molested in this era.

Yeah but if you read the whole post the idea is that this would span the generations and given that everyone had modern training / equipment / surfaces etc., the time at which they ran should not affect it. Nurmi was the most dominant 5k runner of his time, so it is certainly feasible that he would be very dominant today as well. Especially against kickers such as El G and Lagat.

[OnePoint]

If Viren were alive today

lol, did you really just say that?

[pln09]

Yeah but if you read the whole post the idea is that this would span the generations and given that everyone had modern training / equipment / surfaces etc., the time at which they ran should not affect it. Nurmi was the most dominant 5k runner of his time, so it is certainly feasible that he would be very dominant today as well. Especially against kickers such as El G and Lagat.

If Nurmi had modern training/equipment/surfaces, he would still get absolutely molested in this era.

[010]

If Nurmi had modern training/equipment/surfaces, he would still get absolutely molested in this era.

You have no reason to actually believe this. He was just as dominate as Bekele, maybe even more. I don't think Bekele could have done anything near what Nurmi did in the 20's. If he lived in this era it's impossible to say how good he would be, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's a pretty stupid opinion if you think he wouldn't be very competitive.

[ZackCampbell]

Excellent source mate.

Got a real source?

I don't get how people still use this excuse. Wikipedia has tons of fact checkers, and there has been talk of El G's 1:42 TT on the boards forever.

[pln09]

You have no reason to actually believe this. He was just as dominate as Bekele, maybe even more. I don't think Bekele could have done anything near what Nurmi did in the 20's. If he lived in this era it's impossible to say how good he would be, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's a pretty stupid opinion if you think he wouldn't be very competitive.

(dominant)

He ran 14:28.

Bekele has run 12:37.
Geb has run 12:39.
Komen has run 12:39.

There are plenty of Africans who could run 14:28 off of literally no training. Nurmi competed in an era completely devoid of east Africans, the ethnic group that completely dominates the modern track scene. As Brumund-Smith said, he was beating people who didn't actually train.

You can't take someone who was dominant in an EXTREMELY weak era and expect him to compete with people almost 2 minutes faster. I'm stupid because I think someone slower than Tirunesh Dibiba and Meseret Defar couldn't beat Kenenisa Bekele and Haile Gebreselassie? Gotcha.

[ZackCampbell]

You have no reason to actually believe this. He was just as dominate as Bekele, maybe even more. I don't think Bekele could have done anything near what Nurmi did in the 20's. If he lived in this era it's impossible to say how good he would be, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's a pretty stupid opinion if you think he wouldn't be very competitive.

The technology and whatever doesn't account for well over 1:30 difference over the course of a 5k.

One thing everyone forgets when projecting across time periods is that times are bound to be faster as the sport grows because there is a larger amount of people participating. More people participating has a higher probability of producing a freak like Bekele.

Edit: Just barely beat. Dammit!

[010]

(dominant)

He ran 14:28.

Bekele has run 12:37.
Geb has run 12:39.
Komen has run 12:39.

There are plenty of Africans who could run 14:28 off of literally no training. Nurmi competed in an era completely devoid of east Africans, the ethnic group that completely dominates the modern track scene. As Brumund-Smith said, he was beating people who didn't actually train.

You can't take someone who was dominant in an EXTREMELY week era and expect him to compete with people almost 2 minutes faster. I'm stupid because I think someone slower than Tirunesh Dibiba and Meseret Defar couldn't beat Kenenisa Bekele and Haile Gebreselassie? Gotcha.

I never said he would beat Bekele and Geb, in fact I said he would get beat dumbass. Your first claim is outrageous. I don't even want to get into that.

To ZackCampbell, it's not just technology. It's training methods. Everyone knows what Nurmi did in his training is very outdated and had no science behind it.

[xcrunna]

I don't get how people still use this excuse. Wikipedia has tons of fact checkers, and there has been talk of El G's 1:42 TT on the boards forever.

Yeah, but it's a rumor, and a time trial. Was there a gun, a FAT system, any spectators besides his coach?

[maverick]

(dominant)

He ran 14:28.

Bekele has run 12:37.
Geb has run 12:39.
Komen has run 12:39.

There are plenty of Africans who could run 14:28 off of literally no training. Nurmi competed in an era completely devoid of east Africans, the ethnic group that completely dominates the modern track scene. As Brumund-Smith said, he was beating people who didn't actually train.

You can't take someone who was dominant in an EXTREMELY weak era and expect him to compete with people almost 2 minutes faster. I'm stupid because I think someone slower than Tirunesh Dibiba and Meseret Defar couldn't beat Kenenisa Bekele and Haile Gebreselassie? Gotcha.


sure there are plenty of east africans TODAY that can run 14:28 off of no training, but were there plenty of east africans in the 1920's that could do it? I think not. Nurmi may not have won, but he would not be nearly 2 minutes behind.

[pln09]

sure there are plenty of east africans TODAY that can run 14:28 off of no training, but were there plenty of east africans in the 1920's that could do it? I think not. Nurmi may not have won, but he would not be nearly 2 minutes behind.

Humans haven't evolved in the past 80 years. If there are Africans now that can do it, then there must have been Africans then who could do it, too. They just weren't competing.

[ZackCampbell]

I never said he would beat Bekele and Geb, in fact I said he would get beat dumbass. Your first claim is outrageous. I don't even want to get into that.

To ZackCampbell, it's not just technology. It's training methods. Everyone knows what Nurmi did in his training is very outdated and had no science behind it.

I know, and it still wouldn't bring him anywhere near the powers of today.

On another note, I just lost a ton of respect for you for calling pln09 names when he was just trying to have a discussion. He's one of the most respectable posters on the site, IMO. C'mon.

[ZackCampbell]

Yeah, but it's a rumor, and a time trial. Was there a gun, a FAT system, any spectators besides his coach?

I never claimed it was true. There's a universal understanding that it is a rumor, and I think I remember the Wikipedia page referring to it as a rumor. If it called it a fact, then that's my mistake.

Personally I believe he was definitely capable of it. No idea if its true or not.

[ZackCampbell]

Humans haven't evolved in the past 80 years. If there are Africans now that can do it, then there must have been Africans then who could do it, too. They just weren't competing.

Right.

[Biscuit_AQ]

Humans haven't evolved in the past 80 years. If there are Africans now that can do it, then there must have been Africans then who could do it, too. They just weren't competing.

this fact is apparently beyond a lot of people.

[maverick]

Humans haven't evolved in the past 80 years. If there are Africans now that can do it, then there must have been Africans then who could do it, too. They just weren't competing.

if humans dont evolve, then why would 14:28 no longer be competitive on the international level when back then it was the world record?

[conabud]

A discussion of all-timers is different than a discussion of who would win in a race.

best post of the thread. we are not talking about all-timers....we are talking about who would win in a race. it's stupid to even CONSIDER someone from prior to 1995. the question IS are we taking these guys at their peeks?....i'm assuming the answer is yes. Therefore.....KOMEN.

[pln09]

if humans dont evolve, then why would 14:28 no longer be competitive on the international level when back then it was the world record?

Better training, conditions, etc (yes, this does make a difference. It doesn't make a 110 second difference though)

The most significant difference would be changes in the pool of competitors. None of the east Africans were competing in the 1920s. It was basically just a group of Finnish people. Why haven't the Finns continued to be competitive on the world scene? Because the world caught up and overtook them.

Once more, as Brumund-Smith said, Nurmi trained a lot more than others. Consequently, he had an advantage over many of his competitors. That advantage wasn't because he was naturally more talented (as the Africans seem to be), it was because he got more out of his body. In the modern era, everyone trains hard, everyone gets all they can out of their bodies. When hard work is coupled with absurd talent, we see some athletes (like Bekele, like Geb, like Komen) running times well out of reach of most runners in history.

[Erik van Ingen]

Ok. In a few years Nike will put together a "Rocky Balboa" style computer simulation with all these guys, plus Pre. It will be based off of modern times, with the runners in their 5k prime. The running community will rally behind it as it will be played on ESPN. John Madden will announce with I don't know, lets say Frank Shorter.

The race: The old schoolers Zatopek and Nurmi will take it out FAST. After three laps of 60 second splits, Pre and Aouita take over. *1600- 4:01. Pre and Aouita and a few random people keep the second mile pretty fast. *3200- 8:05. After another lap, the true 5k guys take over. I'm talking about Geb, Bekele, and Kipchoge. The pace is falling a little because it's been too fast. *4k- 10:08. When they have 500-600 to go, 3 guys make their moves. Viren, El G, and Lagat are leading now. Komen is sitting in the 5th position (Bekele, Geb, and Kipchoge are still there). John Madden says "don't count out Komen just yet." A foreshadowing of what's to come. They enter the backstretch (300m to go), and its been too fast too long for El G and Lagat. Komen makes his move with 200 to go. *4800- 12:10. It looks like its all Komen, but Kipchoge surges for the win! Komen tightens up in the last 20m.
1. Kipchoge 12:37.13
2. Bekele 12:37.58
3. Geb 12:38.04
4. Komen 12:38.10
5. Viren 12:38.96
6. El G 12:40.26
7. Lagat 12:40.78
8. Pre 12:43.11

This is exactly what will happen in this Nike computer simulation in 2011. Refer to this when that happens. You'll be amazed.


I didn't read all the responses in this thread but just so happened to stumble upon yours. Pre? really comeon now, he's nowhere close to any of those guys.

I voted Nurmi, simply because at the time he was so far beyond everyone in the world.

[maverick]

Better training, conditions, etc (yes, this does make a difference. It doesn't make a 110 second difference though)

The most significant difference would be changes in the pool of competitors. None of the east Africans were competing in the 1920s. It was basically just a group of Finnish people. Why haven't the Finns continued to be competitive on the world scene? Because the world caught up and overtook them.

Once more, as Brumund-Smith said, Nurmi trained a lot more than others. Consequently, he had an advantage over many of his competitors. That advantage wasn't because he was naturally more talented (as the Africans seem to be), it was because he got more out of his body. In the modern era, everyone trains hard, everyone gets all they can out of their bodies. When hard work is coupled with absurd talent, we see some athletes (like Bekele, like Geb, like Komen) running times well out of reach of most runners in history.

that first sentence is pretty much exactly what i have been saying. Nurmi would not win, but he would be competitive.

[Equinox2100]

that first sentence is pretty much exactly what i have been saying. Nurmi would not win, but he would be competitive.

I don't think Nurmi woulda even beaten Pre to be honest.

Yeah, but it's a rumor, and a time trial. Was there a gun, a FAT system, any spectators besides his coach?

DO YOU DOUBT EL G?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!! :mad:

[Achilles]

As it looks right now, El G may win his second "across the era's" title on these boards.

He will at least be the favorite going into the 2nd round if the thread stays alive.

I am still not sure how he is such an overwhelming favorite. I think people are just thinking of his ridiculous kick/speed and giving it to him. This would not be a standard sit and kick race though with these guys in it AND kicking with 8 people around you in a race that you have only run 4 times in your entire life is different than kicking with 3 people around you at the Olympics.

Lagat to have as many votes as Geb for the most part is just a product of the time we are in right now. If I asked this question 12 months ago before he won double gold, he probably would have 1/3 of the votes. I dont see lagat winning this race.

Bekele I dont see winning it either, I think people vote for the fastest guy without much thought. He is not as tactically good as Lagat, El G, Geb, Viren, or even Kipchoge. He would be up there because he is just that fast, but I wouldnt put money on him winning it.

Interesting discussions though about the older guys.

[pln09]

that first sentence is pretty much exactly what i have been saying. Nurmi would not win, but he would be competitive.

Except I don't think he'd be competitive. I say he loses by at least a minute.

[conabud]

Nurmi would not win, but he would be competitive.

yeah, maybe for the first 4-5 laps....but after that?....NO.

i wouldn't put Pre in this discussion, but i WOULD put him ahead of Nurmi......it's common sense.....we are not talking about "all-timers" here.
Nurmi IS DEFINITELY and all-timer, but could not compete with the guys on this list. If he was born in 1975, i would say that he would be much more competetive with the rest, but he wasn't born in 1975. He both profited AND was a victim of the age he lived in.

i also agree that El G and Lagat would NOT win this. I would put my money on Komen and GEB.....and why isn't Tergat on the list?....i wouldn't pick him to win a 5K against these guys, but he does deserve to be on this list.

[Achilles]

yeah, maybe for the first 4-5 laps....but after that?....NO.

i wouldn't put Pre in this discussion, but i WOULD put him ahead of Nurmi......it's common sense.....we are not talking about "all-timers" here.
Nurmi IS DEFINITELY and all-timer, but could not compete with the guys on this list. If he was born in 1975, i would say that he would be much more competetive with the rest, but he wasn't born in 1975. He both profited AND was a victim of the age he lived in.

i also agree that El G and Lagat would NOT win this. I would put my money on Komen and GEB.....and why isn't Tergat on the list?....i wouldn't pick him to win a 5K against these guys, but he does deserve to be on this list.

I left him off the list for exactly the reasons you just stated. He wouldnt win this. I didnt want to put anyone on the list that definitely wouldnt have won this. He definitely would not have won this race, never set a WR, never won a major championship at it and basically was not that experienced at running the 5k. Thats basically the reason.

While I dont personally think Zatopek and Nurmi would win, some people do think they would becase of dominance. Tergat getting a vote over these guys on the list would just not be right. Good point though, he was fast enough to be in this discussion but I think we saw pretty much a 100% all out race from Tergat when he ran 12:49. He got 3rd in that race.

I agree with the rest of your post tho.

[LongRedLine4H]

Nurmi trained primarily on a diet of hours of brisk daily walking and the occasional short set of sprints.

You guys are telling me you don't think a guy who walked his way to a 14:28 5k wouldn't be pretty darned good in today's era? He'd be a 13:10 guy at the slowest, and while I agree he probably wouldn't win a race against the other athletes on the poll, saying "he ran 14:28, that's not that fast, end of story" is ignorant to the extreme.

[jacksparrow34313]

Viren had guts. Won against a good field in Munich. Turned one of the most baller last 200s ever in Montreal to pwn a few milers who looked like they were about to eat him alive. Only thing going against him at the 5k is that he only held the WR once, for 8 days. Great tactician though, and had a devastating kick despite not having incredible short speed. It's tough to say how he compares against runners of today. It's inaccurate to discredit him based on lesser quality of competition, I think by the time he was competing, you were truly competing against the best the world had to offer. Maybe not quite as deep as now, but at the top it was as good. I think he would be a real contender though, leaving drug accusations out of it, as they are unverifiable.

Zatopek I just really like, I can't claim that he would be over a minute faster if he had been born 50 years later, I just like to think he would, and he was awesome.

Geb is just the man. Lowered the world record from 12:58 to 12:39. Had potential in his career to be an Olympic medalist in anything from the 1500 to marathon. Can't really argue with him, even though he never won a world title at 5k, as he also never contested one during his prime (silver in 93 at 20 years old). Devastating kick, devastating off of any pace really. Tough to argue that he wouldn't have been dominant in any era, as he was dominant from 1500 to the marathon in the most competitive era, and very few people have demolished records like him.

Last vote went to El G. I don't think we ever saw the best of him time-wise over 5k. If the question was about greatest 5k runners I might have favored a guy like Nurmi over him, because when I think about El G as a 5k runner I think more about potential than what he accomplished. Guy ran 7:23 on a lark, I don't see any reason to think he couldn't have gotten down into the lower 12:40s eventually, maybe lower if he'd focused on it during his prime. Ran 12:52 in a screwy paced WC final in 2003. In any era, a guy with the 1500 and mile WR who can run within 5 seconds or so of the 5k WR, I would say has a good chance of taking a 5k race against anyone.

Left Bekele off, probably should've put him or someone else ahead of Zatopek. I don't think Bekele at his prime beats Geb at his prime over any distance, even though his PRs are slightly faster. While I would rank him over El G overall in the 5k, in a race I think he loses to both Geb and El G, and losing to 2 guys in your own era isn't a great profile, which is why I didn't vote for him.


JS

[Biscuit_AQ]

the question was "who would win"?

Zatopek, Viren, and Nurmi would be the last 3 in this race. Does anyone contest that?

[Achilles]

Viren had guts. Won against a good field in Munich. Turned one of the most baller last 200s ever in Montreal to pwn a few milers who looked like they were about to eat him alive. Only thing going against him at the 5k is that he only held the WR once, for 8 days. Great tactician though, and had a devastating kick despite not having incredible short speed. It's tough to say how he compares against runners of today. It's inaccurate to discredit him based on lesser quality of competition, I think by the time he was competing, you were truly competing against the best the world had to offer. Maybe not quite as deep as now, but at the top it was as good. I think he would be a real contender though, leaving drug accusations out of it, as they are unverifiable.

Zatopek I just really like, I can't claim that he would be over a minute faster if he had been born 50 years later, I just like to think he would, and he was awesome.

Geb is just the man. Lowered the world record from 12:58 to 12:39. Had potential in his career to be an Olympic medalist in anything from the 1500 to marathon. Can't really argue with him, even though he never won a world title at 5k, as he also never contested one during his prime (silver in 93 at 20 years old). Devastating kick, devastating off of any pace really. Tough to argue that he wouldn't have been dominant in any era, as he was dominant from 1500 to the marathon in the most competitive era, and very few people have demolished records like him.

Last vote went to El G. I don't think we ever saw the best of him time-wise over 5k. If the question was about greatest 5k runners I might have favored a guy like Nurmi over him, because when I think about El G as a 5k runner I think more about potential than what he accomplished. Guy ran 7:23 on a lark, I don't see any reason to think he couldn't have gotten down into the lower 12:40s eventually, maybe lower if he'd focused on it during his prime. Ran 12:52 in a screwy paced WC final in 2003. In any era, a guy with the 1500 and mile WR who can run within 5 seconds or so of the 5k WR, I would say has a good chance of taking a 5k race against anyone.

Left Bekele off, probably should've put him or someone else ahead of Zatopek. I don't think Bekele at his prime beats Geb at his prime over any distance, even though his PRs are slightly faster. While I would rank him over El G overall in the 5k, in a race I think he loses to both Geb and El G, and losing to 2 guys in your own era isn't a great profile, which is why I didn't vote for him.


JS


I agree with the reasoning for the last two 100%, agree with Virens too and I just would probably have Komen over Zatopek. Good post tho.

[Equinox2100]

the question was "who would win"?

Zatopek, Viren, and Nurmi would be the last 3 in this race. Does anyone contest that?

Yes.

[xcmiler245]

lol, did you really just say that?

wow, i don't know what i was thinking, haha. meant still running...oops

I agree with the reasoning for the last two 100%, agree with Virens too and I just would probably have Komen over Zatopek. Good post tho.

Glad to see the OP and I agree on picks. also, great post Jack and +rep for superior reasoning

EDIT: wanna give rep but can't because I haven't spread it in a while!

[010]

I know, and it still wouldn't bring him anywhere near the powers of today.

On another note, I just lost a ton of respect for you for calling pln09 names when he was just trying to have a discussion. He's one of the most respectable posters on the site, IMO. C'mon.

I'll be the first to admit that I got carried away and that was wrong.

I just don't like how people write Nurmi off like there's some equation to compare runners from 80 years apart and Nurmi feel miserably short. Bekele's parents weren't even born when he was running. The whole "there were no runners during his time period" means nothing.

I didn't include him in the top 8, but like Maverick said I still think he would be somewhat competitive (way closer than a minute a part).

I'm probably just arguing because he deserves more respect, as he is the most important and influential runner in the poll, minus maybe Zatopek.

[Erik van Ingen]

Wasn't Emil Zatopek imprisoned for speaking out against the Czechoslovakian government? Correct me if I'm wrong but it was during some of his peak years. Imagine what more he would hav ebeen able to accomplish if that had not happened.

[pln09]

I'll be the first to admit that I got carried away and that was wrong.

I just don't like how people write Nurmi off like there's some equation to compare runners from 80 years apart and Nurmi feel miserably short. Bekele's parents weren't even born when he was running. The whole "there were no runners during his time period" means nothing.

I didn't include him in the top 8, but like Maverick said I still think he would be somewhat competitive (way closer than a minute a part).

I'm probably just arguing because he deserves more respect, as he is the most important and influential runner in the poll, minus maybe Zatopek.

Apology accepted. :)

Also, don't get me wrong, I have tremendous respect for Nurmi.

[maverick]

Wasn't Emil Zatopek imprisoned for speaking out against the Czechoslovakian government? Correct me if I'm wrong but it was during some of his peak years. Imagine what more he would hav ebeen able to accomplish if that had not happened.

he was but it was in 1968, well after he was done running competitively.

[hoegher]

Nurmi trained primarily on a diet of hours of brisk daily walking and the occasional short set of sprints.

You guys are telling me you don't think a guy who walked his way to a 14:28 5k wouldn't be pretty darned good in today's era? He'd be a 13:10 guy at the slowest, and while I agree he probably wouldn't win a race against the other athletes on the poll, saying "he ran 14:28, that's not that fast, end of story" is ignorant to the extreme.

But what about all those African runners during the same period? There's all this dominance for them today, you think that just cropped up in their genes in the past 20 years? If you're going to apply the "with modern training" arguement, you'd have to apply to all runners, and I think there would be a couple African runners who would be in that discussion.
But you can't do that, which is why the "all-timer" arguement is different than "who would win in a race" arguement.

the question was "who would win"?

Zatopek, Viren, and Nurmi would be the last 3 in this race. Does anyone contest that?

QFE

[conabud]

Nurmi trained primarily on a diet of hours of brisk daily walking and the occasional short set of sprints.

You guys are telling me you don't think a guy who walked his way to a 14:28 5k wouldn't be pretty darned good in today's era? He'd be a 13:10 guy at the slowest, and while I agree he probably wouldn't win a race against the other athletes on the poll, saying "he ran 14:28, that's not that fast, end of story" is ignorant to the extreme.

who cares how Nurmi trained! he WAS who he WAS, and it wouldn't change when putting him in a race with Komen,Geb,Bekele,etc. We could sit around and speculate all day about what this person COULD have done if they trained harder OR did things differently OR lived in a different era, etc.......but this thread isn't about speculation, it's about them racing AS IS...or AS WAS. In this instance, Nurmi is not a "13:10 guy"...he is a 14:28 guy, because THAT is what he ran. I agree that having better competition like these other guys on the poll would allow for him to improve on that 14:28 time, but not by 78 seconds.

[pln09]

who cares how Nurmi trained! he WAS who he WAS, and it wouldn't change when putting him in a race with Komen,Geb,Bekele,etc. We could sit around and speculate all day about what this person COULD have done if they trained harder OR did things differently OR lived in a different era, etc.......but this thread isn't about speculation, it's about them racing AS IS...or AS WAS. In this instance, Nurmi is not a "13:10 guy"...he is a 14:28 guy, because THAT is what he ran. I agree that having better competition like these other guys on the poll would allow for him to improve on that 14:28 time, but not by 78 seconds.

Well...no. It's about who would win if everyone had modern training and technology.

[conabud]

Well...no. It's about who would win if everyone had modern training and technology.

no sir. it's about who would win period.

[maverick]

no sir. it's about who would win period.

then why dont we just give the title to bekele, he does have the WR after all?

[trakrunnerguy]

I think Komen, Geb, and Bekele would be the class of the field in that race. I pick Komen FTW.

[jacksparrow34313]

no sir. it's about who would win period.
..


This is with no rabbits, current conditions/tracks/shoes/training methods in an Olympic type stage.



JS

[Biscuit_AQ]

Someone tell me who Viren, Nurmi or Zatopek would beat. Preferably not using the "Kipchoge is suddenly felled by a heretofore undiagnosed heart defect!" argument.

[trakrunnerguy]

I think Pre would turn it into a pure guts race, which is the kind of race only he can win, and run flat out from the gun until he has nothing left, destroying El G, Bekele, Geb, Lagat, Komen and everyone else handily.:p

[Achilles]

I am going to make the next poll soon with 7-8 people. im surprised that Auoita doesnt have more votes. He ran 20 sec slower than the WR 20
+ years ago. GREAT range and very good over 5k and 3k and 15. He probably wont b in the 2nd round.

[conabud]

..



JS

it doesn't matter. it's still gonna be Komen,GEB, and Bekele as top 3. you can go ahead and put shoes from the year 2100 on Nurmi and give him all the best training methods and modern facilities...he's still not gonna beat any of those 3 guys.

[pln09]

I am going to make the next poll soon with 7-8 people. im surprised that Auoita doesnt have more votes. He ran 20 sec slower than the WR 20
+ years ago. GREAT range and very good over 5k and 3k and 15. He probably wont b in the 2nd round.

It seems like the top 6 would be a good option, seeing as though it is clearly defined.

I agree with you on Aouita. He's not in my top four, but he's close.

[conabud]

then why dont we just give the title to bekele, he does have the WR after all?

because when you put all these guys in a race, PR's are not the only thing that matters! tactics just may be involved too! shouldn't you know this? I would expect somebody that presents themselves as somewhat knowledgable about the sport and posts 100 times a day like you would know this. come on man.

[Ray_Ray]

because when you put all these guys in a race, PR's are not the only thing that matters! tactics just may be involved too! shouldn't you know this? I would expect somebody that presents themselves as somewhat knowledgable about the sport and posts 100 times a day like you would know this. come on man.

Okay so idk if you (conabud) were being sarcastic but I do know that maverick was being vesecious.

[conabud]

Okay so idk if you (conabud) were being sarcastic but I do know that maverick was being vesecious.

so the fact that he was being vacicious means that i shouldn't have responded the way i did?? wtf?

imo, you can't base everything on how someone dominated in their era. the guys today are just better...period.....and they have way more comp to deal with than some dude from 50 or 100 years ago did.

[conabud]

I think Komen, Geb, and Bekele would be the class of the field in that race. I pick Komen FTW.

i agree....and in that order exactly.

[Achilles]

so the fact that he was being vacicious means that i shouldn't have responded the way i did?? wtf?

imo, you can't base everything on how someone dominated in their era. the guys today are just better...period.....and they have way more comp to deal with than some dude from 50 or 100 years ago did.


People arent basing it solely on the fact that they dominated their era. Almost everyone says Zatopek and Nurmi would not win this race, but they dont think that they would get beat as bad as their PR's show.

And you did get rather defensive off of a pretty clear sarcastic statement by maverick so no, you probably shouldnt have responded like that.

[jacksparrow34313]

it doesn't matter. it's still gonna be Komen,GEB, and Bekele as top 3. you can go ahead and put shoes from the year 2100 on Nurmi and give him all the best training methods and modern facilities...he's still not gonna beat any of those 3 guys.
That wasn't the point of my post. Did I say one thing about Paavo Nurmi doing anything? You told pln something that was blatantly wrong, and I corrected you. I'm not gonna go into speculation about Nurmi and others because you can't prove anything either way. Although I will say that a guy who runs 14:20s on lots of walking and some sprints, probably has a sh1tload of talent. Can you seriously doubt that if he had actually trained he wouldn't be at least like a low 13 minutes guy?


JS

[pln09]

Okay so idk if you (conabud) were being sarcastic but I do know that maverick was being vesecious.

so the fact that he was being vacicious means that i shouldn't have responded the way i did?? wtf?

imo, you can't base everything on how someone dominated in their era. the guys today are just better...period.....and they have way more comp to deal with than some dude from 50 or 100 years ago did.

It's facetious, people!

[conabud]

People arent basing it solely on the fact that they dominated their era. Almost everyone says Zatopek and Nurmi would not win this race, but they dont think that they would get beat as bad as their PR's show.

And you did get rather defensive off of a pretty clear sarcastic statement by maverick so no, you probably shouldnt have responded like that.


i'm not allowed to get defensive when someone makes a sarcastic statement while not understanding what i was talking about?

anyway, people ARE basing a LOT of this on the fact that they dominated their era. this is all a matter of opinion....and my opinion is that they would get beat ALMOST as bad as their PR's show.

[Ultimatex]

i'm not allowed to get defensive when someone makes a sarcastic statement while not understanding what i was talking about?

anyway, people ARE basing a LOT of this on the fact that they dominated their era. this is all a matter of opinion....and my opinion is that they would get beat ALMOST as bad as their PR's show.

I'm pretty sure he understood what you were talking about.

He was making fun of you.

[maverick]

Okay so idk if you (conabud) were being sarcastic but I do know that maverick was being vesecious.

if vesecious means the same as sarcastic then you are right.

[maverick]

i'm not allowed to get defensive when someone makes a sarcastic statement while not understanding what i was talking about?

anyway, people ARE basing a LOT of this on the fact that they dominated their era. this is all a matter of opinion....and my opinion is that they would get beat ALMOST as bad as their PR's show.

listen to ultimatex, he is a wise young sage.

[MIDAS]

I'm not sure I believe that Numri's training was all walking with "short sprints." And even if it was, who knows how long those sprints actually were. maybe they were up to 600 or 800 meters, which would have him basically doing interval work everyday, pretty much how Landy ran 4:02 after 10 weeks of that type of training, and eventually 3:58. Although I'm sure Numri's training was bad, I'm not sure anyone can say with any logical basis that he would even have competed with someone like Pre, let alone Geb and Komen.


Off topic, on pre: It sucks that he gets a bad rep now because so many idiots overhyped him based on the movies and such. Can't really say what he would have run, but I would say closer to 13:10-15. But, I also think he could have been a world class dominant 10k runner if he wanted to. Does anyone know what the world record in the 5k was at that point?

[conabud]

That wasn't the point of my post. Did I say one thing about Paavo Nurmi doing anything? You told pln something that was blatantly wrong, and I corrected you. I'm not gonna go into speculation about Nurmi and others because you can't prove anything either way. Although I will say that a guy who runs 14:20s on lots of walking and some sprints, probably has a sh1tload of talent. Can you seriously doubt that if he had actually trained he wouldn't be at least like a low 13 minutes guy?


JS


sure, he had a crap-load of talent and would be running better times with more comp and better training/equiptment/facilities....but i'm taking a guess and saying he wouldn't be a low 13 minute guy......and i doubt he ran 14:28 on walking and some sprints....i'm sure there's just a touch of exaggeration in that story.

[conabud]

No, because I point out the obvious.

me too!

[jacksparrow34313]

sure, he had a crap-load of talent and would be running better times with more comp and better training/equiptment/facilities....but i'm taking a guess and saying he wouldn't be a low 13 minute guy......and i doubt he ran 14:28 on walking and some sprints....i'm sure there's just a touch of exaggeration in that story.
He was competing at a time where the majority of doctors still believed that the heart had a limited number of beats, and that too much running and exercise would shorten your life span; I don't find it too hard to believe. Someone who owns Perfect Mile can look it up, I lent my copy out, but it talks about the training of a lot of guys from that period.


JS

edit: and why don't you think he could run low-13s? Kennedy ran 12:58, Matt Tegenkamp has run 13:04, Goucher and Webb both ran 13:10. People are saying he didn't have to compete against Africans because they weren't out there at the world level at his time. Well Americans certainly were, and he destroyed all the Americans around then. Americans haven't evolved either, in fact if anything, we've evolved fatter and lazier. If he could beat everyone from the West in those days, why not now? For the sake of this discussion, let's call the "low 13s" I referred to earlier as anything under 13:15... Do you think the best runner in the world at one point in time couldn't run within 5 seconds of Adam Goucher? Or 4 seconds of Tim Broe and Alberto Salazar? I don't like to credit people with times they haven't run, but it's really not that outrageous to suggest that if say, he stopped the hours of brisk walking with sprints and started running 100 miles a week, he would be able to compete with, if not the best Kenyan runners, at least the best (not even best) American runners.

[maverick]

why, because he l#cks your b#lls?

actually this is one of the first times he and i agree.

[conabud]

He was competing at a time where the majority of doctors still believed that the heart had a limited number of beats, and that too much running and exercise would shorten your life span; I don't find it too hard to believe. Someone who owns Perfect Mile can look it up, I lent my copy out, but it talks about the training of a lot of guys from that period.


JS

edit: and why don't you think he could run low-13s? Kennedy ran 12:58, Matt Tegenkamp has run 13:04, Goucher and Webb both ran 13:10. People are saying he didn't have to compete against Africans because they weren't out there at the world level at his time. Well Americans certainly were, and he destroyed all the Americans around then. Americans haven't evolved either, in fact if anything, we've evolved fatter and lazier. If he could beat everyone from the West in those days, why not now? For the sake of this discussion, let's call the "low 13s" I referred to earlier as anything under 13:15... Do you think the best runner in the world at one point in time couldn't run within 5 seconds of Adam Goucher? Or 4 seconds of Tim Broe and Alberto Salazar? I don't like to credit people with times they haven't run, but it's really not that outrageous to suggest that if say, he stopped the hours of brisk walking with sprints and started running 100 miles a week, he would be able to compete with, if not the best Kenyan runners, at least the best (not even best) American runners.

ok, i can see your point and reasoning behind your opinion and i could see him being in that range of time...but i still would put him behind almost all of the guys on the list.

[Biscuit_AQ]

Point is, if he runs 13:10, he's still not at all in the running. Duh?

[maverick]

Point is, if he runs 13:10, he's still not at all in the running. Duh?

i dont think anyone said he would win, but rather that he would not be over a minute behind like some have said.

[wineturtle]

old man brainfart thinking more towards 10000 when voted
5000 guys
Haile Gebreselassie
Vlad Kuts
Said Aouita
Ron Clarke


Others finalists might include-in no order :Henry Rono,Salah Hissou,Kenenisa Bekele,Paul Tergat,Emile Puttermans,Dickie Quax, Kip Keno, Lassie Viren plus I would never run a historical 5000 invite without Emil Zatopek and Paavo Nurmi, never.

[PSlevin]

Lasse Viren.
Unless someone else on this list has got more than 4 gold medals.

Times (world records/bests) come and go like the different styles of
racing spikes.

Comparing Nurmi to El G is comparing apples
to oranges.
Different time periods.
Different science.
Different competitions.

The one true lasting common denominator in a poll
like this is the Olympic Games.

Sure, we follow every blessed event.
Every NCAA meet.
Every World Championships.
Every European season.
Every world record or barrier broken.

The whole rest of the world
only pays attention every four years!

Like it or not, the Olympic Games are THE STANDARD
by which our athletes are judged.
It doesn't seem very fair sometimes (ask Jim Ryun),
but face it.....it's the truth.

Lasse Viren...3 Olympic Games = 4 GOLD medals.

[wineturtle]

Talking about Nurmi hardware!!
http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/nu/paavo-nurmi-1.html

[yank09]

Lasse Viren.
Unless someone else on this list has got more than 4 gold medals.

Times (world records/bests) come and go like the different styles of
racing spikes.

Comparing Nurmi to El G is comparing apples
to oranges.
Different time periods.
Different science.
Different competitions.

The one true lasting common denominator in a poll
like this is the Olympic Games.

Sure, we follow every blessed event.
Every NCAA meet.
Every World Championships.
Every European season.
Every world record or barrier broken.

The whole rest of the world
only pays attention every four years!

Like it or not, the Olympic Games are THE STANDARD
by which our athletes are judged.
It doesn't seem very fair sometimes (ask Jim Ryun),
but face it.....it's the truth.

Lasse Viren...3 Olympic Games = 4 GOLD medals.

If you can't compare because of different competition then why use Olympic performances, after all, its different competition ever year. And the question is who would win? Not, in the eyes of the entire world who is the better 5k runner? (And what wineturtle said.)

As for my votes, I don't know enough so I didn't vote.

[SATKey]

then why dont we just give the title to bekele, he does have the WR after all?

he doesn't run the WR every time he runs a 5k.

[Evilution]

Voted other: Mikel Thomas

[Achilles]

Lasse Viren.
Unless someone else on this list has got more than 4 gold medals.

Times (world records/bests) come and go like the different styles of
racing spikes.

Lasse Viren...3 Olympic Games = 4 GOLD medals.

Nurmi AND Zatopek had more medals than Viren. Viren had 4 Gold, Zatopek had 4 Gold and a Silver and Nurmi had 9 golds, 4 in track, 5 in XC including 3 with his team. He also had 3 silvers as well in track

[PSlevin]

I understand that there's different competition at every Olympics.
What I meant was that when Nurmi ran, there weren't that
many people running (or at least training) in the world.

If Zatopek and Nurmi have more medals, then I'd say they are the best.
I stand by my stance that you can really only judge guys by what
do they do on the BIGGEST stage in our sport.
I didn't say it was fair......but it is what they're all
remembered for.....and if they DON'T perform on that
stage (even if they've only had
one or two opportunities) then THAT'S what they're remember for.
The BIGGEST stage is the Olympics.

Ex.: Henry Rono
When was the last time a distance runner held FOUR
world records
at one time?

What's he "known" for?
The average Joe DOESN'T know who Henry Rono is/was.
He held FOUR world records!!!!!
Never even sniffed a medal in the Games.

Ask any of the the successful Olympians what it
(their Olympic golds)
has meant to their careers.
Especially the "pioneers" like Nurmi and Zatopek......
even MY choice....Viren.
Without The Games......he'd be almost forgotten.

If the 5k was run in an Olympic
stadium.....I'd pick Viren to win!!!!!

[miler12]

multiple choice poll. voted accordingly.

[pln09]

multiple choice poll. voted accordingly.

Not cool.

[YanoXC]

ZATOPEK!!! THE CZECH TRAINWRECK!!

yeah yeahey

[Marrow2000]

I understand that there's different competition at every Olympics.
What I meant was that when Nurmi ran, there weren't that
many people running (or at least training) in the world.

If Zatopek and Nurmi have more medals, then I'd say they are the best.
I stand by my stance that you can really only judge guys by what
do they do on the BIGGEST stage in our sport.
I didn't say it was fair......but it is what they're all
remembered for.....and if they DON'T perform on that
stage (even if they've only had
one or two opportunities) then THAT'S what they're remember for.
The BIGGEST stage is the Olympics.

Ex.: Henry Rono
When was the last time a distance runner held FOUR
world records
at one time?

What's he "known" for?
The average Joe DOESN'T know who Henry Rono is/was.
He held FOUR world records!!!!!
Never even sniffed a medal in the Games.

Ask any of the the successful Olympians what it
(their Olympic golds)
has meant to their careers.
Especially the "pioneers" like Nurmi and Zatopek......
even MY choice....Viren.
Without The Games......he'd be almost forgotten.

If the 5k was run in an Olympic
stadium.....I'd pick Viren to win!!!!!


Yes, but are we asking ourselves who is more well-known, or who would win in a 5000? Viren's 4 gold medals are not necessarily better than Henry Rono's 4 world records. Viren didn't compete much/have much success outside of two Olympics Games, and probably couldn't handle running the European summer circuit.

Just because you have more Olympic medals 40 years ago doesn't necessarily mean you can hold your own against the East Africans that barely emerged in force 20 or so years ago.

[Prince]

I understand that there's different competition at every Olympics.
What I meant was that when Nurmi ran, there weren't that
many people running (or at least training) in the world.

If Zatopek and Nurmi have more medals, then I'd say they are the best.
I stand by my stance that you can really only judge guys by what
do they do on the BIGGEST stage in our sport.
I didn't say it was fair......but it is what they're all
remembered for.....and if they DON'T perform on that
stage (even if they've only had
one or two opportunities) then THAT'S what they're remember for.
The BIGGEST stage is the Olympics.

Ex.: Henry Rono
When was the last time a distance runner held FOUR
world records
at one time?

What's he "known" for?
The average Joe DOESN'T know who Henry Rono is/was.
He held FOUR world records!!!!!
Never even sniffed a medal in the Games.

Ask any of the the successful Olympians what it
(their Olympic golds)
has meant to their careers.
Especially the "pioneers" like Nurmi and Zatopek......
even MY choice....Viren.
Without The Games......he'd be almost forgotten.

If the 5k was run in an Olympic
stadium.....I'd pick Viren to win!!!!!
Go Pre!

[Achilles]

Yes, but are we asking ourselves who is more well-known, or who would win in a 5000? Viren's 4 gold medals are not necessarily better than Henry Rono's 4 world records. Viren didn't compete much/have much success outside of two Olympics Games, and probably couldn't handle running the European summer circuit.

Just because you have more Olympic medals 40 years ago doesn't necessarily mean you can hold your own against the East Africans that barely emerged in force 20 or so years ago.

Didnt Viren run the European circuit? He beat Prefontaine many a times outside of the Olympic games and they definitely werent on American soil.

On a different note, the poll will be ending in one of the next few days and I will remake a new one. Any ideas on what we should do? There will be 6 people in the next poll because of the natural break in the numbers (unless something crazy happens). Should we use that as the final poll, or should we get it down to 3 people left and vote for a winner?

Personally, I would rather see 3 people left because voting for one person out of six is going to water it down some. I will do what the majority wants though. I dont mind making two more polls, or we can just have one with six people in it and call that person the winner.

Please let me know, thanks for voting so far.

[pln09]

Didnt Viren run the European circuit? He beat Prefontaine many a times outside of the Olympic games and they definitely werent on American soil.

On a different note, the poll will be ending in one of the next few days and I will remake a new one. Any ideas on what we should do? There will be 6 people in the next poll because of the natural break in the numbers (unless something crazy happens). Should we use that as the final poll, or should we get it down to 3 people left and vote for a winner?

Personally, I would rather see 3 people left because voting for one person out of six is going to water it down some. I will do what the majority wants though. I dont mind making two more polls, or we can just have one with six people in it and call that person the winner.

Please let me know, thanks for voting so far.

I'd say go for a six-way poll in which people vote for thee people. Then have a three person poll in which people vote for one person.

[PSlevin]

Since we are coming up on the Olympic Games, how about a poll for the greatest Olympic "feat".

Something like:

1- Al Oerter's 4 golds in the discus.

2- Zatopek's Olympic "triple" 5k/10/marathon

3- Vladimir Kuts' "triple" (didn't he do it also)?

4- Russian hammer guy....didn't one USSR guy medal in multiple Games?

5- Carl Lewis' 4 Gold medals

6- Jesse Owens' 4 Golds

7- Lasse Viren's 4 golds

8- Joan Benoit's marathon win

9- Bob Beamon's WR* in the '68 LJ




....can anyone think of any others?

[maverick]

Since we are coming up on the Olympic Games, how about a poll for the greatest Olympic "feat".

Something like:

1- Al Oerter's 4 golds in the discus.

2- Zatopek's Olympic "triple" 5k/10/marathon

3- Vladimir Kuts' "triple" (didn't he do it also)?

4- Russian hammer guy....didn't one USSR guy medal in multiple Games?

5- Carl Lewis' 4 Gold medals

6- Jesse Owens' 4 Golds

7- Lasse Viren's 4 golds

8- Joan Benoit's marathon win

9- Bob Beamon's WR* in the '68 LJ




....can anyone think of any others?

what is with the asterisk by the WR LJ?

[PSlevin]

10- A. Bikela's barefoot marathon victory (and the beginning of the Africans domination of distance running in the Games.
[sorry about the spelling Abebe]

11- Billy Mills 10k victory (?)

12- Frank Shorter's marathon victory [and the start of the running boom] (?)

13- Dick Fosbury's '68 HJ gold [and the way he changed the event] (?)

...............any others?

[PSlevin]

Beamon's WR....while a unbelievable feat....was set in Mexico City's "rarified" air.....way ABOVE sea level.

[maverick]

Beamon's WR....while a unbelievable feat....was set in Mexico City's "rarified" air.....way ABOVE sea level.

still eligible for WR status though, which is good enough for me. If it was wind-aided it would be different.

[PSlevin]

you're right.....and an UNREAL Olympic feat......skipped 28' altogether!!!
Went from 27' right to 29' !!!!

[Ray_Ray]

Didnt Viren run the European circuit? He beat Prefontaine many a times outside of the Olympic games and they definitely werent on American soil.

On a different note, the poll will be ending in one of the next few days and I will remake a new one. Any ideas on what we should do? There will be 6 people in the next poll because of the natural break in the numbers (unless something crazy happens). Should we use that as the final poll, or should we get it down to 3 people left and vote for a winner?

Personally, I would rather see 3 people left because voting for one person out of six is going to water it down some. I will do what the majority wants though. I dont mind making two more polls, or we can just have one with six people in it and call that person the winner.

Please let me know, thanks for voting so far.

Okay well take the clearly victorious top six, and scratch one of them (probably Lagat, but whoever you want) and replace with Chuck Norris.

[jlynch190]

voted other (German Fernandez)

[hijackthecar]

10- A. Bikela's barefoot marathon victory (and the beginning of the Africans domination of distance running in the Games.
[sorry about the spelling Abebe]

11- Billy Mills 10k victory (?)

12- Frank Shorter's marathon victory [and the start of the running boom] (?)

13- Dick Fosbury's '68 HJ gold [and the way he changed the event] (?)

...............any others?

14. Kip Keino's dominating victory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Lo7A9y9pU) in Mexico City, 1968

[cleanheels]

Voted other.............Webb!

[Slow Runner]

Voted other.............Webb!

lol

[pln09]

I think it's time for the next poll.

[Fast4]

Viren dominated in the Olympics, the only championship race at the time. He could run fast and kick, he could sit and kick. GOAT in the 5k IMO.

He was great, but look at his personal bests. I don't believe time is the only factor. If one runner never wins a thing and has a PR of 13:00 and another guy has 5 medals and has only run 13:05 then I give the edge to the guy with the medals. The guy who has proved himself. But when comparing Viren to the likes of Bekele and Geb they are simply in another stratosphere than him. Viren's best 5000M run was in 13:16 which is 26+ seconds behind both Bekele and Geb. No amount of meals will bridge that gap. Especially considering Geb is possibly the greatest distance warrior of all-time and Bekele will leave quite a legacy himself.

The top 3 have got to be Bekele, Geb, and Im going to put El Guerrouj in there not because he is a particularly brilliant 5000M runner, but because if you are within 100M of him with a lap to go you are still in danger of being hawked. EL G has 15 of the 25 fastest times ever run in the 1500M. He is just too deadly to ignore. If the pace wasnt quick from the start, if he was allowed to stick around until 1000M to go he would be right in there. the 4th man: who knows Kichoge, Lagat, Paul Tergat would be my choices to fill in that last spot.

[Achilles]

He was great, but look at his personal bests. I don't believe time is the only factor. If one runner never wins a thing and has a PR of 13:00 and another guy has 5 medals and has only run 13:05 then I give the edge to the guy with the medals. The guy who has proved himself. But when comparing Viren to the likes of Bekele and Geb they are simply in another stratosphere than him. Viren's best 5000M run was in 13:16 which is 26+ seconds behind both Bekele and Geb. No amount of meals will bridge that gap. Especially considering Geb is possibly the greatest distance warrior of all-time and Bekele will leave quite a legacy himself.

The top 3 have got to be Bekele, Geb, and Im going to put El Guerrouj in there not because he is a particularly brilliant 5000M runner, but because if you are within 100M of him with a lap to go you are still in danger of being hawked. EL G has 15 of the 25 fastest times ever run in the 1500M. He is just too deadly to ignore. If the pace wasnt quick from the start, if he was allowed to stick around until 1000M to go he would be right in there. the 4th man: who knows Kichoge, Lagat, Paul Tergat would be my choices to fill in that last spot.

We are up to the semi finals poll now. (The semi finals of this group of questioning...not these guys racing in semifinals.)

You also left out Komen completly. No way he gets lower than 7th, especially with Tergat in the race.

[dbandre]

He was great, but look at his personal bests. I don't believe time is the only factor. If one runner never wins a thing and has a PR of 13:00 and another guy has 5 medals and has only run 13:05 then I give the edge to the guy with the medals. The guy who has proved himself. But when comparing Viren to the likes of Bekele and Geb they are simply in another stratosphere than him. Viren's best 5000M run was in 13:16 which is 26+ seconds behind both Bekele and Geb. No amount of meals will bridge that gap. Especially considering Geb is possibly the greatest distance warrior of all-time and Bekele will leave quite a legacy himself.

Let's put Geb and Bekele on 1970's era tracks and see if they come close to 13:00. My guess is they wouldn't break 13:00, it's probably a 2.5s difference per lap, which puts them in the 13:05 range. For that matter lining up Viren against Zapotek has to account for track surface differences, so the only that separates them is 11s which one could attribute to training differences between 1970 and now. This kind of puts it into perspective how bad US distance running is and how this resurgance is just like a dot com bubble. Our national record back to Pre was 13:21 and now it's 12:58. A 23s difference and a considerable gain in time, but it's 12 years old and the change in the world record from 1974 to 1996 was 22s. It wasn't in the 80's and mid 90's that distance running (3k+) faltered for the US, it was the mid 90's when it faltered, although as far as being remotely relevant in the 80's has a lot to do with Bob Kennedy, Salazar, and Maree. Thank god for Tege's and Lagat otherwise we would likely not even have a remote possibility of having a 5k finalist.

[xcrunna]

2.5 second/lap difference? You're off your rocker.

[dbandre]

2.5 second/lap difference? You're off your rocker.

I hardly think so, look at the progression from 72 to 96 with respect to NRs and WR and you see they all keep the same amount of improvement. If you think the energy return and loss characteristics are within a 1.5s per lap combined from shoe and track improvements then you are nuts. Your local HS with a recycled rubber track is faster than any track made before 1976 and I don't KB or Geb would even break 13:00 on a recycled tire track. Put Viren on a Mondo or Benyon surface in today's shoes and he goes at least 12:40.

[xcmiler245]

I hardly think so, look at the progression from 72 to 96 with respect to NRs and WR and you see they all keep the same amount of improvement. If you think the energy return and loss characteristics are within a 1.5s per lap combined from shoe and track improvements then you are nuts. Your local HS with a recycled rubber track is faster than any track made before 1976 and I don't KB or Geb would even break 13:00 on a recycled tire track. Put Viren on a Mondo or Benyon surface in today's shoes and he goes at least 12:40.

I agree that there would be a large difference between then and today, but I'm not so sure of 2.5. I would put it more in the 1.9-2.1 range, so basically 2.0. This puts Bekele's WR at 13:02, which sounds pretty reasonable to me...Another silly gripe I have is that Bekele and possibly Geb probably could do quite well on any surface. Look at KB's results on grass, the guy can run fast on basically any surface, so his drop might be more towards 1.7-8 per lap, putting him at just under 13 minutes, still reasonable for the great Kenny B

Also, I don't think Viren would 12:40 capable on todays surfaces. 12:48-54 seems much more likely to me...which is still damn legit.

EDIT: We both should have posted this in the other forum, the semifinal one. I thought this was that one...

[Achilles]

I hardly think so, look at the progression from 72 to 96 with respect to NRs and WR and you see they all keep the same amount of improvement. If you think the energy return and loss characteristics are within a 1.5s per lap combined from shoe and track improvements then you are nuts. Your local HS with a recycled rubber track is faster than any track made before 1976 and I don't KB or Geb would even break 13:00 on a recycled tire track. Put Viren on a Mondo or Benyon surface in today's shoes and he goes at least 12:40.

Not a chance Viren breaks 12:40. Viren did nothing to indicate he was a big time WR setter. He set one in the 5k and it got broken right afterwards. Geb lowered the WR almost 20 seconds on a bunch of different occasions. He was on another level than Viren in terms of time trialing at least.

I cant buy 2.5 a lap. I think Geb and Bekele and Komen would be under 13 minutes by a few seconds at least. 2.5 seconds a lap puts Komens 3k over 7:35...not a chance he is 7 seconds worse than Auoita at 3k. 2.5 seconds is way too much. 2.5 seconds a lap also brings Ryuns WR down to 3:40 (and he was more than 5 years before Viren so it would have been more than 10 seconds).

2.5 seconds is an absurd amount of time per lap. Maybe per 2 laps.

[dbandre]

Not a chance Viren breaks 12:40. Viren did nothing to indicate he was a big time WR setter. He set one in the 5k and it got broken right afterwards. Geb lowered the WR almost 20 seconds on a bunch of different occasions. He was on another level than Viren in terms of time trialing at least.

I cant buy 2.5 a lap. I think Geb and Bekele and Komen would be under 13 minutes by a few seconds at least. 2.5 seconds a lap puts Komens 3k over 7:35...not a chance he is 7 seconds worse than Auoita at 3k. 2.5 seconds is way too much. 2.5 seconds a lap also brings Ryuns WR down to 3:40 (and he was more than 5 years before Viren so it would have been more than 10 seconds).

2.5 seconds is an absurd amount of time per lap. Maybe per 2 laps.

The time differential changes as the laps increase in number. less force applied to ground equals less return in a classical mechanics sense it has to follow hooke's law. It's probably about 1.75s per lap at 3k distance and around 1s for the mile. I did the numbers before and they made sense then for every event from 100M-10K. The only one's out of wack kind of are the 100m and 200m.

[Achilles]

The time differential changes as the laps increase in number. less force applied to ground equals less return in a classical mechanics sense it has to follow hooke's law. It's probably about 1.75s per lap at 3k distance and around 1s for the mile. I did the numbers before and they made sense then for every event from 100M-10K. The only one's out of wack kind of are the 100m and 200m.

1.75 seconds still = 13 seconds that he would slow down making him a 7:33+ 3k runner and theres just no way he is worse than Auoita at the distance which your conversion makes him. Auoita was an 8:13 2 miler and a 728 3k guy. Komen was 7:20 and 7:58. Im not buying the fact that Komen would be 13 seconds slower in each of those events and on par with Auoita.

The conversion can just simply not be linear. It doesnt make sense for it to be linear like that. I'd say at absolute most there is 3/4 of a second difference per lap in the 3k.

[dbandre]

1.75 seconds still = 13 seconds that he would slow down making him a 7:33+ 3k runner and theres just no way he is worse than Auoita at the distance which your conversion makes him. Auoita was an 8:13 2 miler and a 728 3k guy. Komen was 7:20 and 7:58. Im not buying the fact that Komen would be 13 seconds slower in each of those events and on par with Auoita.

The conversion can just simply not be linear. It doesnt make sense for it to be linear like that. I'd say at absolute most there is 3/4 of a second difference per lap in the 3k.

The conversion isn't linear, as the distance increases the speed of the race slows down and the vertical forces are decreased and in a sense Hooke's law takes care of the rest. That said, Aouita ran on post 1976 surfaces make your comparison moot and the conversion are for a comparison of Viren to Geb/Bekele or vice versa. From 1976-1984 tracks didn't change much and from 1984-1996 they didn't change much, it seems they make a leap forward about every 3 olympic cycles, primarly because of planning, but in 1983-84 and 94-96 huge improvements in track and shoe technology occured at the same time. Most of the European surfaces didn't improve until around '78.

3k and 1500m from 83 to 94-96ish track surfaces are about 1s to .75s slower per lap. Then again I don't think you appreciate how dominate Aouita was considering his only competition at time seemed come from the British Empire and some of the last remnants of American distance running heavyweights. His 12:58 in 1987 lasted 7 years before times started to drop again in 1994-1996 when track technology and shoes improved once again to provide better energy return and traction. Nowadays athletes are racing on surfaces nearly as compliant as asphalt and concrete with as much traction in 1/8's as you get in 1/4's on rubber running distance races. Komen's time is considered untouchable, but even Komen never had to race against the likes of Cruz, Coe, Cram, Ovett, Padilla, Maree, Moorcraft, and Morcelli in every race. The only people Komen had to worry about were a Geb or an El G. Bar none, Aouita was probably the best all-around distance runner ever.

[Achilles]

The conversion isn't linear, as the distance increases the speed of the race slows down and the vertical forces are decreased and in a sense Hooke's law takes care of the rest. That said, Aouita ran on post 1976 surfaces make your comparison moot and the conversion are for a comparison of Viren to Geb/Bekele or vice versa. From 1976-1984 tracks didn't change much and from 1984-1996 they didn't change much, it seems they make a leap forward about every 3 olympic cycles, primarly because of planning, but in 1983-84 and 94-96 huge improvements in track and shoe technology occured at the same time. Most of the European surfaces didn't improve until around '78.

3k and 1500m from 83 to 94-96ish track surfaces are about 1s to .75s slower per lap. Then again I don't think you appreciate how dominate Aouita was considering his only competition at time seemed come from the British Empire and some of the last remnants of American distance running heavyweights. His 12:58 in 1987 lasted 7 years before times started to drop again in 1994-1996 when track technology and shoes improved once again to provide better energy return and traction. Nowadays athletes are racing on surfaces nearly as compliant as asphalt and concrete with as much traction in 1/8's as you get in 1/4's on rubber running distance races. Komen's time is considered untouchable, but even Komen never had to race against the likes of Cruz, Coe, Cram, Ovett, Padilla, Maree, Moorcraft, and Morcelli in every race. The only people Komen had to worry about were a Geb or an El G. Bar none, Aouita was probably the best all-around distance runner ever.

I know a good amount about Auoita. That said, Komen ran his WR 11-12 years ago and we are now in a new olympic cycle with new technology and new tracks and stuff and no one has even come even close to touching it.

I know how dominant Auoita was in almost all distances but why would Komen have to race Coe, Cram, Ovett, and especially Cruz? Maree doesnt compare to Geb/El G. He ran very fast but was not the type of winner Geb/El G was.

None of those guys are african in that group you listed and the Africans are just better than the British/Europeans. Rono ran 7:32.1 in 1976 so by your conversions he runs just under 7:19 for the 3k if he was running today. I dont buy that. He also ran 13:08 in 78 and that means he would have run 12:37 and then he ran 27:22 in the same year and if the time goes up per lap. If the difference is 3.2 seconds (.7 more per lap than your 5k which I think is reasonable considering you said it goes up .75 from 3k-5k) than he runs 26:02.

Rono was awesome, but not that good. Rono ran WAY faster than Viren right after Viren won his first Olympics. Viren was not a time trialer. Set a couple of WR's when they were fairly weak for that time and then lost them shortly after. I dont think Viren breaks 12:50 personally. No non african ever has. To say he runs 10+ seconds faster than every other non african. Dieter Baumen who turned out to be dirty during his career is the fastest non african as far as I know and he ran 12:54. He also won a gold medal. Viren was not going to be 15 seconds faster than Baumen.

[dbandre]

I know a good amount about Auoita. That said, Komen ran his WR 11-12 years ago and we are now in a new olympic cycle with new technology and new tracks and stuff and no one has even come even close to touching it.

I know how dominant Auoita was in almost all distances but why would Komen have to race Coe, Cram, Ovett, and especially Cruz? Maree doesnt compare to Geb/El G. He ran very fast but was not the type of winner Geb/El G was.

None of those guys are african in that group you listed and the Africans are just better than the British/Europeans. Rono ran 7:32.1 in 1976 so by your conversions he runs just under 7:19 for the 3k if he was running today. I dont buy that. He also ran 13:08 in 78 and that means he would have run 12:37 and then he ran 27:22 in the same year and if the time goes up per lap. If the difference is 3.2 seconds (.7 more per lap than your 5k which I think is reasonable considering you said it goes up .75 from 3k-5k) than he runs 26:02.

Rono was awesome, but not that good. Rono ran WAY faster than Viren right after Viren won his first Olympics. Viren was not a time trialer. Set a couple of WR's when they were fairly weak for that time and then lost them shortly after. I dont think Viren breaks 12:50 personally. No non african ever has. To say he runs 10+ seconds faster than every other non african. Dieter Baumen who turned out to be dirty during his career is the fastest non african as far as I know and he ran 12:54. He also won a gold medal. Viren was not going to be 15 seconds faster than Baumen.

What does african have to do with it. All those guys Aouita raced against raced against Africans as is Aouita. As was Morcelli. Rono wasn't way faster than Viren in the 5k. Maree was a WR holder in the 1500m, Padilla was a top 3000m runner. Komen also never held a record other than the 3000m which is kind like saying he's a 3000m specialist. Coe's record stood 18 years and it's likely he and Kipketer could be considered equals. African's dominate distance, not because of genetics, but because of environmental influence (money, lifestyle, popularity of the sport in early adult life, etc..). While ours and every other caucasian country trains an absurd amount of miles and 90% of US runners become recreational runners by the time we turn 18 if we still run, the africans run about 25% less mileage in a training week and come to school over here and run at age 25 in some instances in our colleges on our scholarship money. We have milers doing 100 mpw which East African 5k/10K don't always do. Our concept of a long run is jog, we no longer have an idea of tempo or intensity. Lets also look at how the top Kenya HS kids come to ours. We are about equal, but 1 more year and as juniors we stink up the joint.

3 men in total have run under 1:42, 1 caucasian, 1 of west african/caribbean indian descent, and 1 east african. of the 15 or so men to run under 3:30 1500m, 2 of them are caucasian, 1 is a south african, 4 are kenyan, 1 from burundi (east central africa), the rest are of Moorish-Berber decent (morocco,algeria, tunisia, spain,portugal) Morcelli, Aouita, Baaldi, El G, Ramzi, Saidi-Sief and even Cacho. The best 5k in the 70's was Rono's 13:08 in 1978. So Africans improve by 40s and americans by 18s from then till 1996!

So Caucasians have reached their physiological limit???? It must be true, we can't break 10s in the 100m, 20s in the 200m even though Peter Norman ran 20.06 in 1968 and Mennea ran under 20s multiple times in the 70s, no longer can we break 3:30 in the 1500m even though 2 did it over 20 years ago, none have broken 12:50 in the 5k, yet we dominate swimming when our genetic code suggests causcasians have lived in cold climate zone for most of evolutionary cycle. I would say it's more about sad training than about genetics. If anything it seems genetics favors anyone living in or who's ancestry is in a country bordering the western and central med in any type of endurance sport that requires speed, soccer, cycling, mid distance running, even long distance running, etc.... The major exception is swimming!!! How about this, US and European coaches need to lay down Aurthur Lydiards manuals based on his observations 40+ years ago and use more of Peter Coe's methods in training distance runners, or maybe they should actually read what Bowerman and Dellinger did as coaches. I guess well only have a couple who do that, one now coaches Virginia (formerly Texas) and other coaches Lagat.

[xcmiler245]

Long, useless post.

Stop. really. He didn't even mention 2/3 of what you are talking about in your post, and it doesn't answer ANY questions. Pretty sure the discussion was whether Viren (among other former elites) could times comparable to those today. Despite what you think, sorry, they couldn't.

And yes, being of African (specifically East African) descent has EVERYTHING to do with that kind of success in the 5k. I just posted in the Galen Rupp thread that genetics(along with cultural differences) give them a gap the the rest of the world has a lot of trouble bridging. Training has some to do with it, but it's less than you think. Our athletes strayed from some of the foolish training we incorporated in the past few decades, but who is to say that everything we see as ideal now isn't null and void in 20 years?

He was right, there's no way Aouita runs a sub 7:25 3k, no way Viren runs sub 12:40(or 45 for that matter), and no way Rono runs those kind of times with your progressions. Yes, they may have run faster, but do you really think these guys could time trial with Geb? Bekele?

Today there is so much focus on diet, rest, plyometrics, and other things that make us faster which, COULD bring those all time greats to times like you mentioned, but we weren't talking about that were we?:p NO, you only brought up the track, and that wouldn't make that kind of difference, no way in hell.

Achilles, good call on Baumann being number 1 non-African on the all time 5k list.

[Achilles]

What does african have to do with it. All those guys Aouita raced against raced against Africans as is Aouita. As was Morcelli. Rono wasn't way faster than Viren in the 5k. Maree was a WR holder in the 1500m, Padilla was a top 3000m runner. Komen also never held a record other than the 3000m which is kind like saying he's a 3000m specialist. Coe's record stood 18 years and it's likely he and Kipketer could be considered equals. African's dominate distance, not because of genetics, but because of environmental influence (money, lifestyle, popularity of the sport in early adult life, etc..). While ours and every other caucasian country trains an absurd amount of miles and 90% of US runners become recreational runners by the time we turn 18 if we still run, the africans run about 25% less mileage in a training week and come to school over here and run at age 25 in some instances in our colleges on our scholarship money. We have milers doing 100 mpw which East African 5k/10K don't always do. Our concept of a long run is jog, we no longer have an idea of tempo or intensity. Lets also look at how the top Kenya HS kids come to ours. We are about equal, but 1 more year and as juniors we stink up the joint.

3 men in total have run under 1:42, 1 caucasian, 1 of west african/caribbean indian descent, and 1 east african. of the 15 or so men to run under 3:30 1500m, 2 of them are caucasian, 1 is a south african, 4 are kenyan, 1 from burundi (east central africa), the rest are of Moorish-Berber decent (morocco,algeria, tunisia, spain,portugal) Morcelli, Aouita, Baaldi, El G, Ramzi, Saidi-Sief and even Cacho. The best 5k in the 70's was Rono's 13:08 in 1978. So Africans improve by 40s and americans by 18s from then till 1996!

So Caucasians have reached their physiological limit???? It must be true, we can't break 10s in the 100m, 20s in the 200m even though Peter Norman ran 20.06 in 1968 and Mennea ran under 20s multiple times in the 70s, no longer can we break 3:30 in the 1500m even though 2 did it over 20 years ago, none have broken 12:50 in the 5k, yet we dominate swimming when our genetic code suggests causcasians have lived in cold climate zone for most of evolutionary cycle. I would say it's more about sad training than about genetics. If anything it seems genetics favors anyone living in or who's ancestry is in a country bordering the western and central med in any type of endurance sport that requires speed, soccer, cycling, mid distance running, even long distance running, etc.... The major exception is swimming!!! How about this, US and European coaches need to lay down Aurthur Lydiards manuals based on his observations 40+ years ago and use more of Peter Coe's methods in training distance runners, or maybe they should actually read what Bowerman and Dellinger did as coaches. I guess well only have a couple who do that, one now coaches Virginia (formerly Texas) and other coaches Lagat.

Komen set the 5k multiple times and still has the 2 mile WR and set the indoor 5k record multiple times as well as the indoor 3k. The 3k/2 mile records are the ones he still owns but he set the 5k record indoors and out a few times. So I dont know what you are talking about with only a 3k world record.

Being not African is a huge thing, I dont know why we are even talking about the 800/1500. We were talking about the 3k and 5k time subracted from the guys who ran in the 70's. I have no idea why you are bringing up Cruz especially and Coe, Cram, Ovett, were not even close to 3k/5k guys.

Rono ran 10 seconds faster than Viren ever did and they ran in the same era. He also ran 16 seconds faster than Viren did (whose PR is from the olympics...maybe the only guy ever with a 10k PR from the olympics...weird) at 10k. He was 11 seconds faster than Viren in the 3k. Not sure how that isnt way faster.

Im not saying caucasians have reached their physical limits. Im saying Viren is NOT on the same level as the African guys who have dominated (Komen, Geb, Bekele) in terms of time trialing. Im not sure how you are arguing that. You said Viren would break 12:40. I said that he isnt 15 seconds better than the next fastest non African guy at 5k even with the time differential from running 35 years ago.

Theres no way that genetics arent involved. Most Americans also dont grow up with A, the passion to run. B, the need to get out and get a better life (lifestyle changes). C, its their big sport and we have baseball, basketball, football. D, at altitude.

The distance running world has changed a ton since Africans started running. Its not a coincidence that all the WR's have dropped when a new set of countries started participating seriously. They are 20 seconds faster not because they have these amazing training methods...they are 20 seconds faster because they basically are just better than us right now. Thats another argument though. This one is that Viren would never break 12:40. Wasnt a time trialer and wasnt the best time trialer in his era...ever.

[Ray_Ray]

It's both genetics and culture. Through HS Africans generall train harder, maybe not as much but they get much more quality out of each mile they run. 10 miles at 7 min > 13 miles at 8:00. Of course, their genetics do somewhat allow them to do this. And yeah, post high-school (college), American's have better training opportunities: more technology, better facilities / equipment. That's when some African's come over here. But African's know what they are doing as far a training.
The point is, they have slight genetic advantages, but there is no way they could be consistently 20 seconds faster than the rest of the world and have inferior training tecniques.

[Kyledamile]

I'm glad Pre wasn't put in this poll so I don't have to see a bunch of retards actually vote for him

Pre? really comeon now, he's nowhere close to any of those guys.

Hey! Pre was easily the greatest runner of all time! How dare you doubt him?!?
tagged

[bogman]

Rono ran 10 seconds faster than Viren ever did and they ran in the same era. He also ran 16 seconds faster than Viren did (whose PR is from the olympics...maybe the only guy ever with a 10k PR from the olympics...weird) at 10k. He was 11 seconds faster than Viren in the 3k. Not sure how that isnt way faster.

Im not saying caucasians have reached their physical limits. Im saying Viren is NOT on the same level as the African guys who have dominated (Komen, Geb, Bekele) in terms of time trialing. Im not sure how you are arguing that. You said Viren would break 12:40. I said that he isnt 15 seconds better than the next fastest non African guy at 5k even with the time differential from running 35 years ago.

Viren was either better at peaking than anyone else in the era, or, more likely, was a blood-doper. He didn't have the year-in, year-out results to suggest that he could be a four time gold medal winner, or come back after the five and ten to take fifth in the marathon - he seemed to have an other-worldly ability to recover after heats and finals. The Finns had a culture of doping in running and XC skiing, and many athletes and observers (including Frank Shorter - who lost a gold to East German blood doper Cierpinski), believed he was doping.

Granted, he was never caught, and it's possible he was clean...

He also benefited from the African boycott in '76

[Achilles]

Viren was either better at peaking than anyone else in the era, or, more likely, was a blood-doper. He didn't have the year-in, year-out results to suggest that he could be a four time gold medal winner, or come back after the five and ten to take fifth in the marathon - he seemed to have an other-worldly ability to recover after heats and finals. The Finns had a culture of doping in running and XC skiing, and many athletes and observers (including Frank Shorter - who lost a gold to East German blood doper Cierpinski), believed he was doping.

Granted, he was never caught, and it's possible he was clean...

He also benefited from the African boycott in '76

Never denied that. Stated that he was NOT a great time trialer but a winner. The discussion has been about time trialing/chasing world records/how much world records would drop if guys from the 70's had todays advantages.

Peaked/doped better than anyone...didnt time trial better than anyone.

[dbandre]

Stop. really. He didn't even mention 2/3 of what you are talking about in your post, and it doesn't answer ANY questions. Pretty sure the discussion was whether Viren (among other former elites) could times comparable to those today. Despite what you think, sorry, they couldn't.

And yes, being of African (specifically East African) descent has EVERYTHING to do with that kind of success in the 5k. I just posted in the Galen Rupp thread that genetics(along with cultural differences) give them a gap the the rest of the world has a lot of trouble bridging. Training has some to do with it, but it's less than you think. Our athletes strayed from some of the foolish training we incorporated in the past few decades, but who is to say that everything we see as ideal now isn't null and void in 20 years?

He was right, there's no way Aouita runs a sub 7:25 3k, no way Viren runs sub 12:40(or 45 for that matter), and no way Rono runs those kind of times with your progressions. Yes, they may have run faster, but do you really think these guys could time trial with Geb? Bekele?

Today there is so much focus on diet, rest, plyometrics, and other things that make us faster which, COULD bring those all time greats to times like you mentioned, but we weren't talking about that were we?:p NO, you only brought up the track, and that wouldn't make that kind of difference, no way in hell.

Achilles, good call on Baumann being number 1 non-African on the all time 5k list.

I read your post and i assumed I can lay your argument down to woeful undergraduate assumptions.

Genetics mean nothing, we all have a lot of common genes, that is why we are human. What you didn't give was a reference to the counter argument of how genetics are expressed. Many scientist who actually study and research this topic don't believe genetics play that big of a role in the development of a human over the course of their lifetime as many of our genes go unexpressed and the expressed gene's come about because of our daily activities. There is a reason why athletes of east african descent born in the US don't dominate US distance running, while one born in east africa and raised there can be a great distance HS distance runner, but not any better than any kid born in the US (Lomong).

PM me for research articles on genetic expression changes in muscles from changes in training. I did a graduate seminar on this topic.

[xcmiler245]

I read your post and i assumed I can lay your argument down to woeful undergraduate assumptions.

Genetics mean nothing, we all have a lot of common genes, that is why we are human. What you didn't give was a reference to the counter argument of how genetics are expressed. Many scientist who actually study and research this topic don't believe genetics play that big of a role in the development of a human over the course of their lifetime as many of our genes go unexpressed and the expressed gene's come about because of our daily activities. There is a reason why athletes of east african descent born in the US don't dominate US distance running, while one born in east africa and raised there can be a great distance HS distance runner, but not any better than any kid born in the US (Lomong).

PM me for research articles on genetic expression changes in muscles from changes in training. I did a graduate seminar on this topic.

I love how you attempt to degrade me and boost yourself. Please, do not get me started on this topic, I don't feel like writing essays online, I've got two more weeks to relax and NOT write about anything.

For now, let's agree to disagree.

For a while, I've been using the following article for reference, I just didn't feel like looking it up the other day and had posted it in another thread the day before. While the expression of genes has an impact on the full potential of a runner(or other athlete), the underlying factor in determining potential is....their genetic code. I don't care what theories there are, if you take 10,000 random white, American babies, put them in a village with 10,000 random Kenyans and they grow up with the same lifestyles and opportunities, there may be an outlier or two, but on the whole, the Kenyans will be more inclined to succeed in distance running.

This doesn't mean that the best runner won't be one of those American kids, but there is more potential for success in the Kenyan runners, largely due to muscle density, weight, slow rate of lactate accumulation and other factors.

Here's the article: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/AAAS_peeringUnderTheHood.htm

By they way, I'm an exercise science major, I'm fairly briefed in this as well:D

[Junker23]

Jason Lezak.

[dbandre]

I love how you attempt to degrade me and boost yourself. Please, do not get me started on this topic, I don't feel like writing essays online, I've got two more weeks to relax and NOT write about anything.

For now, let's agree to disagree.

For a while, I've been using the following article for reference, I just didn't feel like looking it up the other day and had posted it in another thread the day before. While the expression of genes has an impact on the full potential of a runner(or other athlete), the underlying factor in determining potential is....their genetic code. I don't care what theories there are, if you take 10,000 random white, American babies, put them in a village with 10,000 random Kenyans and they grow up with the same lifestyles and opportunities, there may be an outlier or two, but on the whole, the Kenyans will be more inclined to succeed in distance running.

This doesn't mean that the best runner won't be one of those American kids, but there is more potential for success in the Kenyan runners, largely due to muscle density, weight, slow rate of lactate accumulation and other factors.

Here's the article: http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/AAAS_peeringUnderTheHood.htm

By they way, I'm an exercise science major, I'm fairly briefed in this as well:D

I stayed out of the Galen Rupp argument and you brought it up here as if your analysis was perfect and it wasn't. I offered alternatives to you and you wished to keep this out in the open. Even in the unscientific article (not peer reviewed, but peer review is not the holy grail) you have given, you failed to notice or mention this part of the article.


But Pitsiladis thinks his numbers may lack significance given the variability of the trait in African populations. "At the moment there is no evidence" that East Africans have a genetic advantage in running, he says.

That's a huge gap for the scientist who believe that genetics play significant role to overcome.

click on links

http://www.sprenten.com/primary.pdf
http://www.sprenten.com/secondary.pdf
http://www.sprenten.com/review.pdf
http://www.sprenten.com/presentation.ppt

[xcmiler245]

I stayed out of the Galen Rupp argument and you brought it up here as if your analysis was perfect and it wasn't. I offered alternatives to you and you wished to keep this out in the open. Even in the unscientific article (not peer reviewed, but peer review is not the holy grail) you have given, you failed to notice or mention this part of the article.



That's a huge gap for the scientist who believe that genetics play significant role to overcome.

Don't click on links

http://www.sprenten.com/primary.pdf
http://www.sprenten.com/secondary.pdf
http://www.sprenten.com/review.pdf
http://www.sprenten.com/presentation.ppt

I didn't want to bring up that part because of course it seems like a downfall of the article. But one thing about that paragraph is that it only touches on the effect of the prevalence of the I allele for the ACE enzyme. I feel that his comments are only directed towards that aspect of genetic comparison, but of course, I could be wrong.

I for one feel that comparisons between the general populations of countries would yield little discrepancies between their genetic makeup, but when you look at the athletes, the MINOR discrepancies can yield large differences. I don't think every Kenyan or Ethiopian has an advantage from birth, but I feel that there is a greater likelihood for some of these rare genetic advantages to appear (such as the high prevalence of the I allele) in East Africans than in runners of say American or European descent.

A flaw of this part of the article is that they do not mention how the prevalence of this allele compares to athletes and citizens of other nations, they only show how it does so within the East African populations. So here, i admit, you've got me.

Still, the majority of the article does present evidence of how they've got significant advantages chemically and physically which lead to a greater economic advantage...

[dbandre]

I didn't want to bring up that part because of course it seems like a downfall of the article. But one thing about that paragraph is that it only touches on the effect of the prevalence of the I allele for the ACE enzyme. I feel that his comments are only directed towards that aspect of genetic comparison, but of course, I could be wrong.

I for one feel that comparisons between the general populations of countries would yield little discrepancies between their genetic makeup, but when you look at the athletes, the MINOR discrepancies can yield large differences. I don't think every Kenyan or Ethiopian has an advantage from birth, but I feel that there is a greater likelihood for some of these rare genetic advantages to appear (such as the high prevalence of the I allele) in East Africans than in runners of say American or European descent.

A flaw of this part of the article is that they do not mention how the prevalence of this allele compares to athletes and citizens of other nations, they only show how it does so within the East African populations. So here, i admit, you've got me.

Still, the majority of the article does present evidence of how they've got significant advantages chemically and physically which lead to a greater economic advantage...

You can click on the links now and read those articles. Just a suggestion is you should use numerous articles like the pdf's above to put forth a scientific argument. Don't take propaganda like Taboo and it's author put forward. Tim Noakes is a respected researcher, but many in the research field find some of his works suspect and numerous conclusions he has come up are a bit off the wall if not impossible to prove or disprove. According to Noakes we already have reached the limits to natural human performance and any super performances now are fueled by pharmacology. I don't believe that is totally true and I usually take anything that quotes Noakes and put it into context.

Just a tip, Don't always believe every thing you read. research it, don't use books, use peer reviewed research, find out the researchers biases and where they have done research and with whom. If pattern emerges look for those with opposing viewpoints. I start my research by looking for reviews which fit my subject matter then I procede to group the referenced authors by their extracted references within the review articles.

There is evidence that muscle fibres change types from slow to fast and fast to slow. It's a continuous remodeling process. That's another reason why I can't take that article seriously. They don't tell you how it compares to other athletes, because it's the same.

If I took 10,000 caucasian, 10,000 west african, 10,000 north africans, and 10,000 west africans from birth and gave them the same training and education from birth and took away all outliers, they would all be equal at least those who applied themselves. This country has at least 100,000 descendants of west african origin born here and almost zero of them run distance competitively past HS. Kids who grow up in poorer communities in the US by and large are the better athletes. They just are more active as children which sets the tone for early genetic expression, they also tend to be more creative as well in their athletic abilities as well as other abilities.

My major contention to Viren v Geb/Bekele is about how much technology helps, but it is also an indictment of the Lydiard System which is prevalent in western distance running culture and Viren's coach was influenced by Lydiard. Look at the US top ten times and you see Bob Kennedy who was coached by Kim McDonald who also coached Kenyans and was not a Lydiard disciple. The Lydiard system requires altitude and it works great at altitude (Mark Wetmore), but athletes falling under the Lydiard system have a hard time breaking 13:15 for 5k. So differences in training attribute to the 10s gap I presume Viren to at from Geb/Bekele. When you work the lactate system for only 1.5 months at a time twice a year it's hard to develop the response of running sub 4:00 mile pace in mile repeats which are needed to break 13 minutes at 5k. We have HS kids runnning 70-80 miles a week who should be running 40-45 mpw max at a higher intensity with 6 days of training, some should be at 35 mpw with only 5 days of running.

[xcmiler245]

You can click on the links now and read those articles. Just a suggestion is you should use numerous articles like the pdf's above to put forth a scientific argument. Don't take propaganda like Taboo and it's author put forward. Tim Noakes is a respected researcher, but many in the research field find some of his works suspect and numerous conclusions he has come up are a bit off the wall if not impossible to prove or disprove. According to Noakes we already have reached the limits to natural human performance and any super performances now are fueled by pharmacology. I don't believe that is totally true and I usually take anything that quotes Noakes and put it into context.

Just a tip, Don't always believe every thing you read. research it, don't use books, use peer reviewed research, find out the researchers biases and where they have done research and with whom. If pattern emerges look for those with opposing viewpoints. I start my research by looking for reviews which fit my subject matter then I procede to group the referenced authors by their extracted references within the review articles.

There is evidence that muscle fibres change types from slow to fast and fast to slow. It's a continuous remodeling process. That's another reason why I can't take that article seriously. They don't tell you how it compares to other athletes, because it's the same.

If I took 10,000 caucasian, 10,000 west african, 10,000 north africans, and 10,000 west africans from birth and gave them the same training and education from birth and took away all outliers, they would all be equal at least those who applied themselves. This country has at least 100,000 descendants of west african origin born here and almost zero of them run distance competitively past HS. Kids who grow up in poorer communities in the US by and large are the better athletes. They just are more active as children which sets the tone for early genetic expression, they also tend to be more creative as well in their athletic abilities as well as other abilities.

My major contention to Viren v Geb/Bekele is about how much technology helps, but it is also an indictment of the Lydiard System which is prevalent in western distance running culture and Viren's coach was influenced by Lydiard. Look at the US top ten times and you see Bob Kennedy who was coached by Kim McDonald who also coached Kenyans and was not a Lydiard disciple. The Lydiard system requires altitude and it works great at altitude (Mark Wetmore), but athletes falling under the Lydiard system have a hard time breaking 13:15 for 5k. So differences in training attribute to the 10s gap I presume Viren to at from Geb/Bekele. When you work the lactate system for only 1.5 months at a time twice a year it's hard to develop the response of running sub 4:00 mile pace in mile repeats which are needed to break 13 minutes at 5k. We have HS kids runnning 70-80 miles a week who should be running 40-45 mpw max at a higher intensity with 6 days of training, some should be at 35 mpw with only 5 days of running.

To be honest, I agree with the majority of this post! I appreciate the advice on researching and searching for patterns and flaws. As a student I'm always looking for ways to improve my research, and I'm being sincere saying I appreciate it. But, there are quite a few points where I disagree. I'll post my gripes in the same order as the bolded sentences above.

1. I don't know much about Tim Noakes, but it doesn't really matter. The only thing he mentions in the article is that West Africans are generally taller and roughly 30kg heavier, something that doesn't exactly take a Ph.D to figure out.

2. The article DOES compare Kenyan(East African) runners to other athletes. The only place it doesn't is in reference to the I allele for the ACE enzyme. When talking about the mass of the Kenyan's calves and the uptake and accumulation of lactate, the article DOES compare them to Norwegian runners.

3. I still think the chemical and physical advantages that East Africans (not all) have at birth would lead them to produce better endurance athletes, even within the same confines and same environments. How can you argue that 400g less of muscle fiber in the calf doesn't assist Kenyans over Europeans/Caucasians in distance events.

4. This isn't surprising, as it's EAST Africans who excel at endurance sports, not West Africans. West Africans are born with an abundance of fast-twitch muscle fibers. While there is an ability to reverse some of those, people of West African descent dominate sprinting for a reason, no matter where they train/are born.

5. This isn't a gripe; I completely agree about the Lydiard system and your statements on mileage. I've never been a fan of the Lydiard system. Period. On the What Was Your Workout thread, I was yelled at for quoting my coach, saying "you can get more out of 40 quality miles than 90 quality miles if you use them properly" or something very similar to that. I believe this entirely, especially those training for 1500/5k. Even so, despite the faultiness of the Lydiard system, I for one cannot see Viren more than 1-2 seconds under 12:50 at his VERY highest potential. 12:54-55 is much more likely, if that...

6. While your articles are esteemed and valuable in the talks about human physiology and endurance athletes, they should be kept out of this argument. There is NOTHING at all comparing East African athletes to other athletes. Nothing. I didn't finish reading them yet, but a quick use of Ctrl + F verified there is nothing about Kenyan/Ethiopian runners...

[dbandre]

To be honest, I agree with the majority of this post! I appreciate the advice on researching and searching for patterns and flaws. As a student I'm always looking for ways to improve my research, and I'm being sincere saying I appreciate it. But, there are quite a few points where I disagree. I'll post my gripes in the same order as the bolded sentences above.

1. I don't know much about Tim Noakes, but it doesn't really matter. The only thing he mentions in the article is that West Africans are generally taller and roughly 30kg heavier, something that doesn't exactly take a Ph.D to figure out.

2. The article DOES compare Kenyan(East African) runners to other athletes. The only place it doesn't is in reference to the I allele for the ACE enzyme. When talking about the mass of the Kenyan's calves and the uptake and accumulation of lactate, the article DOES compare them to Norwegian runners.

3. I still think the chemical and physical advantages that East Africans (not all) have at birth would lead them to produce better endurance athletes, even within the same confines and same environments. How can you argue that 400g less of muscle fiber in the calf doesn't assist Kenyans over Europeans/Caucasians in distance events.

4. This isn't surprising, as it's EAST Africans who excel at endurance sports, not West Africans. West Africans are born with an abundance of fast-twitch muscle fibers. While there is an ability to reverse some of those, people of West African descent dominate sprinting for a reason, no matter where they train/are born.

5. This isn't a gripe; I completely agree about the Lydiard system and your statements on mileage. I've never been a fan of the Lydiard system. Period. On the What Was Your Workout thread, I was yelled at for quoting my coach, saying "you can get more out of 40 quality miles than 90 quality miles if you use them properly" or something very similar to that. I believe this entirely, especially those training for 1500/5k. Even so, despite the faultiness of the Lydiard system, I for one cannot see Viren more than 1-2 seconds under 12:50 at his VERY highest potential. 12:54-55 is much more likely, if that...

6. While your articles are esteemed and valuable in the talks about human physiology and endurance athletes, they should be kept out of this argument. There is NOTHING at all comparing East African athletes to other athletes. Nothing. I didn't finish reading them yet, but a quick use of Ctrl + F verified there is nothing about Kenyan/Ethiopian runners...

I meant East African descent.

How does one form less muscle and have a greater degree of enzyme activity and run faster times? By running faster in practice and daily activities. The problem most caucasians have is very large soleus muscles, because of a great deal of walking and standing as the soleus is a postural muscle. Another thing is Africans learn to run naturally, and are not coached at moving their legs. They exhibit elasticity and stiffness in their gaits that Caucasians don't because some idiot coach is talking about turnover, pulling, and push off. You don't need to actively push off or pull, they both occur naturally. All adaptations occur because of we what we do on a daily basis. The studies don't need to include the participants descent, it realizes the former statement as correct. It assumes there is no genetic advantage, because that is the limit of our scientific understanding right now.

I don't believe for a second that genetic doping will help any athlete any time in the near future. If they don't train, their genetic advantage goes away. An athlete would need to do gene therapy more often than they would EPO, Blood Doping, HGH, and steriod cycles.

West Africans, don't always dominate sprinting no matter where they are at. In the UK, a young caucasian by the name of Craig Pickering has been their national champion and Allan Wells was an Olympic and European Champion, Roger Black was well he was White. It is true that Linford Christie was Jamacian, but he was also busted. So why is it that the UK has 3 caucasians that run faster than any caucasian in the US, we should have about 10x the number UK caucasians running sub 10.4s?

[xcmiler245]

I meant East African descent.

How does one form less muscle and have a greater degree of enzyme activity and run faster times? By running faster in practice and daily activities. The problem most caucasians have is very large soleus muscles, because of a great deal of walking and standing as the soleus is a postural muscle. Another thing is Africans learn to run naturally, and are not coached at moving their legs. They exhibit elasticity and stiffness in their gaits that Caucasians don't because some idiot coach is talking about turnover, pulling, and push off. You don't need to actively push off or pull, they both occur naturally. All adaptations occur because of we what we do on a daily basis. The studies don't need to include the participants descent, it realizes the former statement as correct. It assumes there is no genetic advantage, because that is the limit of our scientific understanding right now.

I don't believe for a second that genetic doping will help any athlete any time in the near future. If they don't train, their genetic advantage goes away. An athlete would need to do gene therapy more often than they would EPO, Blood Doping, HGH, and steriod cycles.

West Africans, don't always dominate sprinting no matter where they are at. In the UK, a young caucasian by the name of Craig Pickering has been their national champion and Allan Wells was an Olympic and European Champion, Roger Black was well he was White. It is true that Linford Christie was Jamacian, but he was also busted. So why is it that the UK has 3 caucasians that run faster than any caucasian in the US, we should have about 10x the number UK caucasians running sub 10.4s?

figured you meant East African, I just wanted to point that out.

I cannot fully believe that the 400g, yes 400 gram! difference in muscle mass is entirely attributed to our upbringings. I'm sure this has to play into, it, but its not just the mass, its the shape, the elasticity which you mentioned, these things can be noticed at younger ages (I forget where I read this, I'll try to find it...).

Anyway, I meant that West Africans dominate sprinting everywhere, I mean that those of West African descent seem to have more success no matter where they settle. Despite the fact that they are from different nations, look at the top 100 times in the 100m, and it is dominated by those of west African descent. Whether from the Trinidad and Tobago (Burns), Jamaica (Bolt) the United States (Gay, Gatlin, etc.), or Portugal (Obikwelu), those of W. African descent tend to excel in sprinting over those of other lineages.

I agree we should have more caucasian sprinters with world class times, but I for one think that a large part of this is that most American white kids with speed are either pressured or pulled towards football.

[RUNNAKED]

for real, there is no way El G ran 1:42, he could have run 1:46 at best in his prime

his 1500m pr was only 3:26.xx, so even 1:46 is probably pushing it

right, and he could only close his 1500m final at athens in 1:46, meaning a high 1:42 is very very unlikely. Especially considering alan webb with a 3:30pr could run a 1:43. El g didnt have it in him. 1:47 at least for a 800 is what id place el g at, right with will leer.

[dbandre]

I agree we should have more caucasian sprinters with world class times, but I for one think that a large part of this is that most American white kids with speed are either pressured or pulled towards football.

Or heavily influenced by coaches with cross country disease (CCD). I actually owe that term to Coach Tony Holler of Plainfield North HS in IL.

[Ray_Ray]

right, and he could only close his 1500m final at athens in 1:46, meaning a high 1:42 is very very unlikely. Especially considering alan webb with a 3:30pr could run a 1:43. El g didnt have it in him. 1:47 at least for a 800 is what id place el g at, right with will leer.

Pwned alert.

[Evilution]

Pwned alert.

n00b

[xcmiler245]

Or heavily influenced by coaches with cross country disease (CCD). I actually owe that term to Coach Tony Holler of Plainfield North HS in IL.

Creative term. I figured distance would be "another" sport that would pull away quick quite kids, but I figured football had more influence and couldn't think of a term for it. that fits well.

[xcrunna]

One question for dbandre. I think before you said Viren-era tracks were 2.5 seconds slower per lap. So when Prefontaine ran his 2 mile in high school was he an 8:2x guy?

[RUNNAKED]

Pwned alert.

lol you do realize evilution was joking right?

[dbandre]

One question for dbandre. I think before you said Viren-era tracks were 2.5 seconds slower per lap. So when Prefontaine ran his 2 mile in high school was he an 8:2x guy?

Outdoor High school tracks haven't changed like IAAF class 1 facilities have since the early 60's. Pre still ran on mostly cinder/dirt tracks and I believe his HS record was done on an early fabricated track. It also works out to be about ~1.25s a lap for fabricated tracks from the late 1960's that may have existed at some colleges/high schools. Are not Gerry Lindgren's HS indoor 2 mile and 3000m records still intact??? i believe looking at the differences indoor and outdoor provide HS records provides a little insight in all this as indoor technology hasn't changed as much as outdoors has in relation to being beneficial to distance runners as indoor tracks. Just look as the event gets longer in distance the more likely it is to have a runner from the '60's and 70's in the event. Not to take anything away from Fernandez, Puskedra, Finnerty, and Derrick, but Ryun, Lindgren, Pre, and Virgin ran world class times as HS runners, Nelson would have been considered just outside of World Class time in 1978. So yes Pre would have ran significantly faster,
probably around 8:32-33ish on today's best HS/average collegiate surfaces.

Lindgren was so good he beat the best russians in the US-USSR meet as a HS athlete at 10k. Ryun beats a World and Olympic Champion as well as the current WR holder as a HS senior. Not only that Ryun's 880yd converted ties then standing WR at 800m as a HS athlete. Even if you take the Africans out of the equation our HS distance runners haven't kept the same pace of improvement or nearly all the top times are the result of pharmacology. My guess is it's a combination of surfaces, shoes, doping, and training. While technology improved, the difference between HS and WC facilities in the mid 60's to mid 70's wasn't as big as that difference is now.

[xcrunna]

Outdoor High school tracks haven't changed like IAAF class 1 facilities have since the early 60's. Pre still ran on mostly cinder/dirt tracks and I believe his HS record was done on an early fabricated track. It also works out to be about ~1.25s a lap for fabricated tracks from the late 1960's that may have existed at some colleges/high schools. Are not Gerry Lindgren's HS indoor 2 mile and 3000m records still intact??? i believe looking at the differences indoor and outdoor provide HS records provides a little insight in all this as indoor technology hasn't changed as much as outdoors has in relation to being beneficial to distance runners as indoor tracks. Just look as the event gets longer in distance the more likely it is to have a runner from the '60's and 70's in the event. Not to take anything away from Fernandez, Puskedra, Finnerty, and Derrick, but Ryun, Lindgren, Pre, and Virgin ran world class times as HS runners, Nelson would have been considered just outside of World Class time in 1978. So yes Pre would have ran significantly faster,
probably around 8:32-33ish on today's best HS/average collegiate surfaces.

Lindgren was so good he beat the best russians in the US-USSR meet as a HS athlete at 10k. Ryun beats a World and Olympic Champion as well as the current WR holder as a HS senior. Not only that Ryun's 880yd converted ties then standing WR at 800m as a HS athlete. Even if you take the Africans out of the equation our HS distance runners haven't kept the same pace of improvement or nearly all the top times are the result of pharmacology. My guess is it's a combination of surfaces, shoes, doping, and training. While technology improved, the difference between HS and WC facilities in the mid 60's to mid 70's wasn't as big as that difference is now.
You're still saying HS Pre would be a 8:20 guy on a modern state-of-the-art European track.