Holmdel vs VanCortlandt

[aviatorshades12]

Which course do you think is harder Holmdel or VanCortlandt? why

[xcrunxc]

Which course do you think is harder Holmdel or VanCortlandt? why

Holmdel. tougher start, tougher hills. also the better course.

edit: railroad ties? they have no place on an xc course.

[MaestroXC]

tougher hills.

I disagree; the constant up and down of VCP in the back hills absolutely mangles my legs. I'm pretty much the opposite of an XC specialist, but I utterly cannot deal with that part of the course.

I agree that Holmdel is a more well-laid course, though. Better surface, and (with the exception of the start) more accomodating to a large number of runners.

[Scotty]

Vanny is Vanny. The Standard. Nuff said.

[NJ5k]

I've run Holmdel many more times than VCP, but I'll still say that I like Holmdel much better. First off, it's naturally harder because its over half a mile longer. However, the hardest part of any course for me is the first 1k or so of Holmdel, especially the first hill at 300m or so in. The bowl is overrated in terms of difficulty, but is still tough as you still have over a mile to go when you get out. Holmdel is a great course and New Jersey is lucky to have it.

[Scotty]

They are both 5,000 meters

[NJ5k]

I was referring to the 2.5 mile course.

[Scotty]

Yes, but the poster would have been comparing the 5k courses.

[78Champ]

Vanny is Vanny. The Standard. Nuff said.

Quoted for emphasis because I agree.

However Scotty, the 5,000m course is not the one refered to as the standard. EVERYBODY should take their best shot at the 2.5 course at least once.

JW

[Scotty]

True, but the 5k is still what I would call the standard of the 5k course in the area. As you know, the two courses are identical through the meat of the course (the open and finish being different).

People will have (and should have) their favorites, which is why threads like this never end.

[78Champ]

True, but the 5k is still what I would call the standard of the 5k course in the area. As you know, the two courses are identical through the meat of the course (the open and finish being different).

People will have (and should have) their favorites, which is why threads like this never end.

Being that the courses are approximately the same age, if Holmdel had been open to the entire region and guys/girls from around the northeast had run on it, I believe it would be considered the "standard" for 5k. Just my opinion.

I liked both venues very much. Unfortunately, never got to run the VCP 5k.

JW

[Scotty]

Holmdel is a great course too, as is Sunken Meadow which is slightly slower/tougher than the other two. Also a candidate for "the standard" at 5k.

[tach44444]

vanny never really gives a chance for the runner to get into a rythem, and thats important for me, so i'd say vanny is a harder course. i've only done the 5k layout once, but found it quite difficult to get things going.

[dwacox]

Garrett anyone :D

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Garrett anyone :D

I'll give you a buck for every mile you've ever run on any of them!!!

[78Champ]

I'll give you a buck for every mile you've ever run on any of them!!!

In that case, I think he owes you money.

JW

[dwacox]

I'll give you a buck for every mile you've ever run on any of them!!!
since we are including garrett I will put in my papers for retirement at my job now

[Joe Lanzalotto]

since we are including garrett I will put in my papers for retirement at my job now

15 minuted per mile pace does NOT count!

[king99]

why not?? Thats my tempo pace!!

[dwacox]

15 minuted per mile pace does NOT count!

So I take it your last race did not count!

[78Champ]

why not?? Thats my tempo pace!!

Hysterical!!!!!! (But I wish you would post some serious responses once in awhile.)

JW

[Midnight Runner]

in my opinion holmdel is significantly harder than van cortlandt park. holmdel never lets you get going. you are running on thick grass and annoying sand and neverending hills right from the get-go. that first hill KILLS you.

van cortlandt has a mile and a half of its course on completely flat ground - the fact is the course is not that hard, compared to holmdel. also, the arrangement of the hills: after every uphill in vanny there is a downhill. at holmdel the big downhill is BEFORE the bowl, and then you're running on a slight upgrade for another half mile before you start your descent.

hands down holmdel is the hardest xc course i've ever seen.

[Kalaby]

Different horses for different courses as they say. To many, VCP is the standard (particularly the 2.5 miles) in the Northeast, and perhaps the entire country. However, in general, Holmdel is the more difficult (i.e. slower) course when compared to VCP's 5k layout.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

So I take it your last race did not count!

Hmmm, how do I respond to this without embarrassing you?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Different horses for different courses as they say. To many, VCP is the standard (particularly the 2.5 miles) in the Northeast, and perhaps the entire country. However, in general, Holmdel is the more difficult (i.e. slower) course when compared to VCP's 5k layout.

You hit the nail on the head for me. I'll NEVER (okay, maybe that's too strong) run Holmdel again. Too nasty for me.

[dwacox]

Hmmm, how do I respond to this without embarrassing you?

Thanks for sparing me I will sleep so much better tonight

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Thanks for sparing me I will sleep so much better tonight

I've heard that weight thowers generally do.

[Scotty]

Different horses for different courses as they say. To many, VCP is the standard (particularly the 2.5 miles) in the Northeast, and perhaps the entire country. However, in general, Holmdel is the more difficult (i.e. slower) course when compared to VCP's 5k layout.

Correct Kalaby....And Sunken Meadow runs slowest of the three. Bottom line is, different guys run better on different courses. It has ALWAYS been that way, spanning a few decades.

[78Champ]

It has ALWAYS been that way, spanning a few decades.

Is that true Joe L? :p

JW

[manj]

Which course do you think is harder Holmdel or VanCortlandt? why

Holmdel is MUCH more difficult than either of the Vanny courses. Both have two hills but the location, length, and steepness of the hills at Holmdel make Vanny a walk in the park

[king99]

Coming from a guy who ran at highest level on both..I tend to agree based on being at both so often..times seem close to an overlay, however..

[Scotty]

And has been posted/proven time and again...they run about the same (especially prior to 1997 resurfacing at VCP). The beginning is much tougher at Holmdel (its uphill), but the overall times are very close and always have been. Most recently BPapazian running 15:38 winning comfortably at Holmdel, then running 15:37.3 running for his life (finishing 5th?) at VCP a week later.

This can go on forever, and nothing will be accomplished. The courses are close. Depends on the runner.

[Goingthedistance]

From the spectators point of view!

[LOHAD]

I always thought VCP was harder...just because I always got sucked into going out too hard, and then paying later....and this included one day in college (Bucknell vs. Iona) when the field went out in 4:40 on an 85 degree September Saturday...a true race of attrition....

I might think otherwise if I ran at VCP more often...only 2x in HS and 4x in college...I ran Holmdel Park all the time...found it easier than our dual meet course (Henry Hudson in the Highlands) ....always looked forward to running there...probably also explains why my PB was better quality at Holmdel....

Holmdel Park -- 16:06 (ran it all the time)
VCP: 13:01 (ran it once) and 16:03 (ran it once)

[Kalaby]

Prior to the resurfacing of both courses over the last 5-7 years or so, there was no doubt whatsoever that VCP was the faster course for the 5k (at least at the elite level). There are a few exceptions, like DiJoseph & Heffernan, but for the most part top NJ runners ran faster times at VCP than Holmdel.

[manj]

Prior to the resurfacing of both courses over the last 5-7 years or so, there was no doubt whatsoever that VCP was the faster course for the 5k (at least at the elite level). There are a few exceptions, like DiJoseph & Heffernan, but for the most part top NJ runners ran faster times at VCP than Holmdel.

Just to keep this thread on track, the orginally question was, "Which course is more difficult" not which is faster. As far as I am aware, we do not have the exact distances of the two courses so trying to figure which is "faster" is an endless circle because even after all of the comparsions it is very possible that one of the course is 20,50, or 100m shorter than the other.

On a similiar note, I have always been opposed to Best Time lists that try to compare cross country times from different courses. I believe this website compiles 5 km and 3 mile lists each Fall. IT just does not work as their is no certification process for cross country courses like there is for road races.

[Kalaby]

Just to keep this thread on track, the orginally question was, "Which course is more difficult" not which is faster. As far as I am aware, we do not have the exact distances of the two courses so trying to figure which is "faster" is an endless circle because even after all of the comparsions it is very possible that one of the course is 20,50, or 100m shorter than the other.

On a similiar note, I have always been opposed to Best Time lists that try to compare cross country times from different courses. I believe this website compiles 5 km and 3 mile lists each Fall. IT just does not work as their is no certification process for cross country courses like there is for road races.

That's a very valid point. For example, back in the late 70s when I was running the VCP frosh course during my age-group years, I saw it listed as 1 5/8 miles, not the 1.5 miles that it is generally regarded as being today. I'm sure each of these courses at VCP and Holmdel have been professionally measured, but I have never seen the data. So I leave it to the NJ runners to make their determination as to which course is more "difficult" since I can't add anything to the conversation having never run at Holmdel. There is no doubt though that the VCP "5k" course required less time to complete than the Holmdel "5k" course in the vast majority of cases for elite runners prior to each course's respective resurfacings over recent years.

BTW, I agree with you that those national XC performance lists are absurd. There are way too many variables to even begin to start comparing performances on those lists relative to each other.

[Scotty]

Yes, the VCP frosh course is more like 1.63 (I am told). For whatever reason, it is listed as 1.5m

[GeorgieTheK]

Like every XC course, the relative difficulty depends on:

1. the runner
2. the weather
3. the meet

and the interactions between the three. look at CBA's times from VCP this past fall - they averaged much, much faster in the course of one week - because they were in a different situation.

i found holmdel to be a difficult course - but I wasn't a hill runner. I ran significantly faster on a flatter, longer course - Warinaco, than I ever did @ Holmdel. VCP was a chore for me, but I ran well there my freshman year in h.s. (1.5 and 5k).

some people run disproportionately well a one course or another for a host of reasons - CBA runs better at holmdel because they run it so often. and so on, and so on.

XC times/distances are impossible to compare across course. even within courses, it becomes difficult to to resurfacing and realignment (holmdel has had both, VCP has been resurfaced).

[polyxc]

Different horses for different courses as they say. To many, VCP is the standard (particularly the 2.5 miles) in the Northeast, and perhaps the entire country. However, in general, Holmdel is the more difficult (i.e. slower) course when compared to VCP's 5k layout.
Bill Meylan thinks the Van Cortland and Holmdel 5K courses are pretty much identical is speed. I trust his stats more than peoples hunches.

What courses prople prefer, or find difficult, is a matter of taste.

[GeorgieTheK]

Bill Meylan thinks the Van Cortland and Holmdel 5K courses are pretty much identical is speed. I trust his stats more than peoples hunches.

What courses prople prefer, or find difficult, is a matter of taste.

actually, meylan's stats show that holmdel is faster than VCP, by an average of 10-15 seconds, using the 2003 data.

but meylan's stats are only as good as the data he uses. in this case, his methodology breaks down. usually, he has a large number of runners to work with - especially large numbers of middle of the pack runners. to compare the two 5k courses, he uses data from footlocker NE - which by design, has no real "mid-pack" runners - everyone who is in the race had to qualify by running fast times.

meylan's data works well for large meets with lots of runners, and it's especially good at comparing races on the same course across years close by. once you get beyond those parameters, his statistics get skewed - and he'll be the first to admit it.

[Kalaby]

Bill Meylan thinks the Van Cortland and Holmdel 5K courses are pretty much identical is speed. I trust his stats more than peoples hunches.

What courses prople prefer, or find difficult, is a matter of taste.

GeorgieTheK had a very good response to this.

Also, if you read my later statements carefully about the course comparisons I specificially stated that I was referring to the period before the resurfacings at VCP & Holmdel. In those cases at the elite level, VCP would almost always take less time to complete than Holmdel for their respective "5k" layouts. Let me underscore the fact that this is not a hunch at all, but based on solid in-depth historical data. It's my belief that the gap has been closed between the two courses since the Holmdel resurfacing a few years back, though as Andy Martin mentioned in an earlier post, that says nothing about the actual distance of either course's "5k" layout.

[Scotty]

Its horses for courses. Always has been, every time this same exact thread comes up. Let's hope it goes away.....again.