Mets Anonymous, 12 step program. Join now.

[homeless]

Figured I should start the program's thread before the full pennant race implosion starts...meetings start at 9:20 each evening, scheduled at this time to help us all that have been affected by this disease have the best chance of avoiding the late inning bullpen meltdowns...

Nice job giving up a field goal and safety last night in the 9th.

Down to a 1 game lead.

Spectacular.

****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My name is homeless, and I'm a Mets fan. I don't wish to share anything else tonight.

[PFFlyer]

Figured I should start the program's thread before the full pennant race implosion starts...meetings start at 9:20 each evening, scheduled at this time to help us all that have been affected by this disease have the best chance of avoiding the late inning bullpen meltdowns...

Nice job giving up a field goal and safety last night in the 9th.

Down to a 1 game lead.

Spectacular.

****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My name is homeless, and I'm a Mets fan. I don't wish to share anything else tonight.

Thank you for sharing.

[hilltopper15]

my name is hilltopper15 and i'm a mets fan.

AND I BELIEVE

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I'm no Mets fan but this is a different team than last year due mostly to the manager. They'll be fine.

And that's coming from a Yankee fan (they will not be fine!).

[homeless]

I'm no Mets fan but this is a different team than last year due mostly to the manager. They'll be fine.

And that's coming from a Yankee fan (they will not be fine!).

Is that a lighthouse in your avatar or are you just happy to see me?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Is that a lighthouse in your avatar or are you just happy to see me?

Now we know why you're alone.

[hilltopper15]

my name is hilltopper15 and i'm a mets fan.

AND I BELIEVE

i dont believe in pedro though. get him out of the starting rotation please

[TMG]

Nats 7, Mets 2 Lead down to 1/2 game.

[LOHAD]

Faith will be rewarded....Let's go Mets!!!

[homeless]

Now we know why you're alone.

Choice, man, choice.

[king99]

Homeless, I am a Met fan and they are done like dinner.

Hitting finally came around, but the bull pen has blown over 20 saves I think 16 is next nearest?

Starting picthing with Oliver Perez recent act is average to below.

People may say different team, different manager? IT matters not in the end, all that matters is W's and L's and standing, it will be no different this year.

[dcsonic17]

I am Dan...and I am a Red Sox fan:D

October without any NY...?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I am Dan...and I am a Red Sox fan:D

October without any NY...?


You're a Red Sox fan so you are well aquainted with the feeling, aren't you?

[Scotty]

Homeless, I am a Met fan and they are done like dinner.

Hitting finally came around, but the bull pen has blown over 20 saves I think 16 is next nearest?

Starting picthing with Oliver Perez recent act is average to below.

People may say different team, different manager? IT matters not in the end, all that matters is W's and L's and standing, it will be no different this year.


Kinger, it looks bad. The Wagner thing killed us. That said, the Phils are no juggernaut. Have some faith, amigo.:)

[Paul Schwartz]

See that walking stick in the corner? (Think Miracle on 34th Street -- the real one)

It's a wild card that'll be available that wasn't last year

8-5 takes wild card

9-4 ties for division

10-3 wins divisions

Bobby Parnell to get 3 saves down stretch

[Paul Schwartz]

Last time around rotation

Santana 7 IP 2 ER (given by pen)

Niese 8 IP 0 R

Perez 7 IP 2 ER (pen stinks)

Martinez 5 IP 4 ER (he's done)

[homeless]

Should be an interesting run to the 28th.

[king99]

Getting in barely was not what I was looking for THIS year.

They are NOT a threat to do anything to anyone in a play off round anymore.

It is abysmal.In the end this will be as bad as last year almost.

If Pedro is in your rotation you are not a good team anymore, he is horrible.

Perez, unreliable, still shows flaws as to why folks DID get rid of him.

Pelfrey at 3.77 and climbing again is a great prospect stilll, but no guarantee in a short series.

Bull Pen? NO need to comment on the obvious.

In the end this is a 3 person core and with one guy, making it 4 having a great second half in Delgado, a soft pitching staff, and a horrible bull pen.

[king99]

Ohh and did I tell you guys?

Two Mets ganes televise din 30 days I have been up here in Pa.

ouch, until I get Dish TV which I hate, I am done as much as the Mets!!:D

[dcsonic17]

You're a Red Sox fan so you are well aquainted with the feeling, aren't you?

October with no Red Sox baseball? Sorry, I hit my head climbing some rocks the other day out here...so I only have a good short term memory dating back to the October of 2004...

[Joe Lanzalotto]

October with no Red Sox baseball? Sorry, I hit my head climbing some rocks the other day out here...so I only have a good short term memory dating back to the October of 2004...

I'm sure of that.;)

[Scotty]

No doubt in my mind that the BoSox would win their 3rd WS in 5 yrs had they not traded Manny (.330, 34, 112). Even without him they appear to be on par with the Rays and Angels.

Ramirez is going to end up with 600 HRs and 2000 RBIs to go with his career .314 avg. Yikes!

[PJOMAX]

Should be an interesting run to the 28th.
The 12 steps start tonight, 2 in DC, 3 in Atlanta with the final 7 at home against the Cubs and Marlins...Lets go Mets


:)

[king99]

Matters not. They are going NO where.

[FIRE CHIEF]

Went to see Manny for the first time in person last night. He hit a two run double in his second at bat. Now Frank Thomas is the only future hall of famer I have yet to see play in person. Doubt that I ever will either.

The Mets will still make it. They aren't fading faster than Milwaukee. Either way it won't matter, their bullpen will kill them in that Cubs series.

[PJOMAX]

Went to see Manny for the first time in person last night. He hit a two run double in his second at bat. Now Frank Thomas is the only future hall of famer I have yet to see play in person. Doubt that I ever will either.

The Mets will still make it. They aren't fading faster than Milwaukee. Either way it won't matter, their bullpen will kill them in that Cubs series.

I can still hear the chant from that night in September of 1969 at Shea by those Met faithfull "Good by Leo, good by Leo, good by Leo, we hate to see you go":)

[maverick]

No doubt in my mind that the BoSox would win their 3rd WS in 5 yrs had they not traded Manny (.330, 34, 112). Even without him they appear to be on par with the Rays and Angels.

Ramirez is going to end up with 600 HRs and 2000 RBIs to go with his career .314 avg. Yikes!

manny might be one of the greatest pure hitters to play this game in a long long time. Say what you want about the other stuff, but that man can hit.

[dcsonic17]

manny might be one of the greatest pure hitters to play this game in a long long time. Say what you want about the other stuff, but that man can hit.


Manny wasn't traded because of his ability or inability to hit, simply because he didn't want to PLAY anymore in Boston. You can be the greatest of all-time, but if you don't care, that brings the team down in other ways. I said it once the trade was made: Bay cares, Bay will play hard, Bay will be an overall improvement. He's been no slouch, a few game winners, game savers on D, and better in the clubhouse. I like our chances, we'll see what happens.

I'm hoping for the Mets to make it too, still dreaming of a Sox-Mets rematch!

[maverick]

Manny wasn't traded because of his ability or inability to hit, simply because he didn't want to PLAY anymore in Boston. You can be the greatest of all-time, but if you don't care, that brings the team down in other ways. I said it once the trade was made: Bay cares, Bay will play hard, Bay will be an overall improvement. He's been no slouch, a few game winners, game savers on D, and better in the clubhouse. I like our chances, we'll see what happens.

I'm hoping for the Mets to make it too, still dreaming of a Sox-Mets rematch!

i didnt say that it wasnt a good idea to trade manny, just made the comments that he is an all-time great hitter. Assuming he hits the #'s that were listed in the previous post (probably 2.5 seasons worth), he will be in the company of 1 other individual with a .315 BA, 600 HR and 2000 RBI. That man is babe ruth. The only other person that looks like he has a chance to join that group is A-rod.

[BlackIrish]

Mets are imploding and I'm loving it. Kick ass year. Go G-MEN!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Manny wasn't traded because of his ability or inability to hit, simply because he didn't want to PLAY anymore in Boston. You can be the greatest of all-time, but if you don't care, that brings the team down in other ways. I said it once the trade was made: Bay cares, Bay will play hard, Bay will be an overall improvement. He's been no slouch, a few game winners, game savers on D, and better in the clubhouse. I like our chances, we'll see what happens.

I'm hoping for the Mets to make it too, still dreaming of a Sox-Mets rematch!


Boston will win the World Series because the Angels wet their pants when they see the Red Sox coming and because they are a very, very good team. They won't win anything because Bay is an improvement on Manny; he isn't. As good as Bay has been and will be, he is not going to be an improvement on Manny. Only Babe Ruth would be. The guy could roll out of bed on a January morning in the snow with a hangover and get a double.

[king99]

Joe is right,others, and Scotty are right.

Manny is a hitting machine, but please do not forget this:

In my mind he could hit for a billion years, he will be a pure hitter, but a totally one dimensional player of EPIC proportions.

I cannot stand him.He is my most disliked player of modern era.Bonds a close second.


he is:

Bad club house guy

Horrific fileder

Slowrunner and worse? NON hustling base runner.

Not a favorite of mine,and I KNOW Scotty at least respects my opinion.

He fits in well, with a team of good pitchers and another power hitter to hold him up? Sound familiar?Red Soxb est teams.

[FIRE CHIEF]

When the going gets tough, Bay gets quitting. As a Pirates fan I learn a lot about guys by watching them night in and night out on a terrible team. Bay DOES NOT care. He is excited now, wait a while until he isn't. You'll see a lazy ballplayer.

Xavier Nady on the other hand is a gamer. Yankees fans will enjoy him next year too.

EDIT: King, Manny has two tools. He can hit for power and average. Jim Thome is a good guy, but maybe the most one dimensional guy who will ever make the hall of fame.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Final Mets 9 Nats 7

All scheduled therapy sessions are being held in abeyance until further notice. That was a close one, no? What did they use, like 8 pitchers?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Joe is right,others, and Scotty are right.

Manny is a hitting machine, but please do not forget this:

In my mind he could hit for a billion years, he will be a pure hitter, but a totally one dimensional player of EPIC proportions.

I cannot stand him.He is my most disliked player of modern era.Bonds a close second.


he is:

Bad club house guy

Horrific fileder

Slowrunner and worse? NON hustling base runner.

Not a favorite of mine,and I KNOW Scotty at least respects my opinion.

He fits in well, with a team of good pitchers and another power hitter to hold him up? Sound familiar?Red Soxb est teams.


You could be describing Ted Williams, you know, except for the non-hustling part (although he was accused of that too). And Ted was, IMO, the best pure hitter ever to step into a batters box.

[FIRE CHIEF]

You could be describing Ted Williams, you know, except for the non-hustling part (although he was accused of that too). And Ted was, IMO, the best pure hitter ever to step into a batters box.

Roberto Clemente was also accused of being a poor teammate. Granted him and Manny are on opposite ends of the defensive spectrum to say the least.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Roberto Clemente was also accused of being a poor teammate. Granted him and Manny are on opposite ends of the defensive spectrum to say the least.

I know Clemente has been sainted and it is sacrilegious to say this, but he was overrated. Okay, he was a great fielder but he was a .317/16/87 guy. For a right fielder, it just isn't that great.

He coudln't carry Manny's bat to the game and I am no Manny lover but the guy is a great, great hitter.

Lord, I can see all of PA coming down on me for this one!

[FIRE CHIEF]

I know Clemente has been sainted and it is sacrilegious to say this, but he was overrated. Okay, he was a great fielder but he was a .317/16/87 guy. For a right fielder, it just isn't that great.

He coudln't carry Manny's bat to the game and I am no Manny lover but the guy is a great, great hitter.

Lord, I can see all of PA coming down on me for this one!

Well, as a hitter nobody can argue with you. Clemente was probably the greatest defensive rightfielder ever, if not the best defensive outfielder period. The 1960 Pirates team was probably the greatest defensive team in baseball history with Clemente, Mazerowski and Dick Grote and Bill Virdon. One of the few teams to have ever won because of defense and not hitting or pitching.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Well, as a hitter nobody can argue with you. Clemente was probably the greatest defensive rightfielder ever, if not the best defensive outfielder period. The 1960 Pirates team was probably the greatest defensive team in baseball history with Clemente, Mazerowski and Dick Grote and Bill Virdon. One of the few teams to have ever won because of defense and not hitting or pitching.

I agree. I was 8 and a big Yankees fan and they broke my heart. There were quite a few great rightfielders around at that time - Clemente, Kaline, Maris (who never gets any credit for his fielding and arm) to name a few.

[king99]

Joe your observations and Chiefs are right on except this in my own opinion.

Ted Williams who NONE of us ever saw play,I don't think,is acknlowledged by many if not all as the best hiiter only.

He also never dogged in the outfield.

On Clemente,one of my childhood favs,sorry I had a glove with wheaties box tops,he was THE best defensive right fielder EVER,matters not what one other person thinks, to me he was it. Watch the highlights.

Dave Parker by far the biggest arm that ever played there, a marginal HOF type guy, almost 300 Hr's .297 I think BA without looking it up.

Clemente, he had 3000 hits, he was NOT a power hitter lazy guy, he legged out many.and stretched more.AN auto HOF'er no matter what.

Joe, not really overrated,when you really think about 4-5 tool players.

Again my own opinon.

[Scotty]

Joe is right,others, and Scotty are right.

Manny is a hitting machine, but please do not forget this:

In my mind he could hit for a billion years, he will be a pure hitter, but a totally one dimensional player of EPIC proportions.

I cannot stand him.He is my most disliked player of modern era.Bonds a close second.


he is:

Bad club house guy

Horrific fileder

Slowrunner and worse? NON hustling base runner.

Not a favorite of mine,and I KNOW Scotty at least respects my opinion.

He fits in well, with a team of good pitchers and another power hitter to hold him up? Sound familiar?Red Soxb est teams.

Well stated, and all true. You know baseball as much as anyone I have met.

However, the guy is a killer at the plate. 600, 2000 and .315 for a career is pretty scary. It overrides his poor fielding, below avg speed and crap attitude.

Bay is a nice player. Manny is a first ballot HOFer....easy. The Mets could have had the guy!

[king99]

Right again, there is no disputing Manny's value as a hitter, and Scotty thanks for the kudos, it means a lot.

He is a horror show hitter, the guy is just that good. I would say Pujols is even better and apparently a better guy, Pujols who is amazing even in off years his numbers are staggering.

Again the issue always for me is one dimensional players, including Ortiz.

By the way Chief, two guys are considered GREATEST overall OF'ers ONLY

IN my opinon ,second greatest player ever Willie Mays,and Di Maggio

Clemente in my own view would be number 3

[FIRE CHIEF]

Joe your observations and Chiefs are right on except this in my own opinion.

Ted Williams who NONE of us ever saw play,I don't think,is acknlowledged by many if not all as the best hiiter only.

He also never dogged in the outfield.

On Clemente,one of my childhood favs,sorry I had a glove with wheaties box tops,he was THE best defensive right fielder EVER,matters not what one other person thinks, to me he was it. Watch the highlights.

Dave Parker by far the biggest arm that ever played there, a marginal HOF type guy, almost 300 Hr's .297 I think BA without looking it up.

Clemente, he had 3000 hits, he was NOT a power hitter lazy guy, he legged out many.and stretched more.AN auto HOF'er no matter what.

Joe, not really overrated,when you really think about 4-5 tool players.

Again my own opinon.

Speaking of Dave Parker, my dad was best friend's in high school with the guy who went on to be the Pirate Parrot and sell Parker and a bunch of other guys drugs.

Parker is one of the most hated players from the Pirates in that era. Not because he wasn't good, but because he should have been great. Definitely didn't play up to potential, and most of it was his own fault.

[Reuben Frank]

Speaking of Dave Parker, my dad was best friend's in high school with the guy who went on to be the Pirate Parrot and sell Parker and a bunch of other guys drugs.

Parker is one of the most hated players from the Pirates in that era. Not because he wasn't good, but because he should have been great. Definitely didn't play up to potential, and most of it was his own fault.

i'm sure dave will appreciate you posting that

parker 2,700 hits, .290 career average, 339 HRs, close to a thousand extra-base hits ... one MVP, five top-five finishes in MVP ... hit .300 six times ...

not a hall of famer but damn close ... i would call him a great player

i ran into dave at a bar in cincinnati once and he came over and sat down with me and another writer and told us the single funniest story i've ever heard in my life. has to do with steve blass. if you ever see me at a track meet, ask me about it

[FIRE CHIEF]

i'm sure dave will appreciate you posting that

parker 2,700 hits, .290 career average, 339 HRs, close to a thousand extra-base hits ... one MVP, five top-five finishes in MVP ... hit .300 six times ...

not a hall of famer but damn close ... i would call him a great player

i ran into dave at a bar in cincinnati once and he came over and sat down with me and another writer and told us the single funniest story i've ever heard in my life. has to do with steve blass. if you ever see me at a track meet, ask me about it

Steve Blass is pretty much insane. He's a great guy, but I've also heard he has some wild stories. He came to my school when I was younger and told us all about the night before he pitched game 7 of the 1971 world series. He said he walked the streets of Baltimore for five hours until the police tried to take him to the station. When he tried telling them he was pitching game 7 of the world series the next afternoon, they called the mental institution. Now, he didn't tell us the part about how he was at the bar and couldn't find the hotel since we were kids, although that was part of the story.:D

Anyways, he has a couple of real doozies. The best involve him and Dick Groat, who is insane in his own right.

Oh, and I could also tell you some stories about Kevin Koch, the guy who was the drug dealing Pirate Parrot. Him and my dad used to pretty much do stuff nobody ever should. My dad never got into his side business thankfully, but theyw ere friends all the way through those years.

[king99]

Roob,great but true story when you think about this.

Richie Zisk who is acknowledgedby many as the greatest hitter in North Jersey at least in the 60's late.

Played Behind Clemente early ,moved out by Parker, still hit over 200 Hr's I think.Bad luck for Zisk. For many old times guys in NJ, they never saw harder hit balls in HS than Zisk hit. I mean top veteran guys saw him/

Parker one of my favs had many tools.Two biggest throws in an All Star game ever.I think.

[FIRE CHIEF]

Roob,great but true story when you think about this.

Richie Zisk who is acknowledgedby many as the greatest hitter in North Jersey at least in the 60's late.

Played Behind Clemente early ,moved out by Parker, still hit over 200 Hr's I think.Bad luck for Zisk. For many old times guys in NJ, they never saw harder hit balls in HS than Zisk hit. I mean top veteran guys saw him/

Parker one of my favs had many tools.Two biggest throws in an All Star game ever.I think.

The Pirates brought up so many great position players in that era. They had a lot of trouble parlaying them into good pitchers through trades though. Blylevin being the obvious exception and probably the most deserving non hall of famer there is. The Lumber Company also couldn't get by the Big Red Machine for a lot of years, no real shame in that though.

[king99]

Chief,I would guess you dad is only slightly older than I. I would love to meet him as I am sure you got a lot of your sports stuff from him,also I have calmed down some but remember the early 80's quite well. A weird time for baseball. Timmy "Rock" Raines, Parker, Willie Wilson , a god in NJ, Keith Hernandez,all caught in same game back then.Sign of bad times,or sign of the times.

Brokerage Business going wild at lierally HIGH points, not a great thing in retrospect.

[king99]

Blylevin Bunning?

The biggest travesty of HOF in my opinon.

Folks that ever voted Bunning in? Should never vote again.

[Reuben Frank]

wasn't Richie Scheinblum from somewhere in north jersey? when i was a kid in teaneck, i went to a baseball camp two summers that was run by Scheinblum's HS coach or legion coach, and he would come to the camp once every summer. thought he lived in old tappan or something like that

[BrianC]

How did this get this get diverted into a Manny / Pairates thread? This should be about Mets fans sharing their shame.

Last night was a horror show! 7 calls to the bullpen is ridiculous. There isn't one guy out there who doesn't give me flashbacks to Doug Sisk.

[Reuben Frank]

How did this get this get diverted into a Manny / Pairates thread? This should be about Mets fans sharing their shame.

Last night was a horror show! 7 calls to the bullpen is ridiculous. There isn't one guy out there who doesn't give me flashbacks to Doug Sisk.

amazing, ain't it? they have 15 Doug Sisks in that bullpen

we used to call the Mets relievers Roger McDoubtful, Jesse Fiasco and Doug Risk

this is worse

we could have a 12-run lead with two outs in the 9th and nobody on and a two-strike count on the other team's pitcher and it wouldn't feel safe

[PJOMAX]

amazing, ain't it? they have 15 Doug Sisks in that bullpen

we used to call the Mets relievers Roger McDoubtful, Jesse Fiasco and Doug Risk

this is worse

we could have a 12-run lead with two outs in the 9th and nobody on and a two-strike count on the other team's pitcher and it wouldn't feel safe

With Santana on the mound tonight, hopefully no relief needed.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Joe your observations and Chiefs are right on except this in my own opinion.

Ted Williams who NONE of us ever saw play,I don't think,is acknlowledged by many if not all as the best hiiter only.

He also never dogged in the outfield.

On Clemente,one of my childhood favs,sorry I had a glove with wheaties box tops,he was THE best defensive right fielder EVER,matters not what one other person thinks, to me he was it. Watch the highlights.

Dave Parker by far the biggest arm that ever played there, a marginal HOF type guy, almost 300 Hr's .297 I think BA without looking it up.

Clemente, he had 3000 hits, he was NOT a power hitter lazy guy, he legged out many.and stretched more.AN auto HOF'er no matter what.

Joe, not really overrated,when you really think about 4-5 tool players.

Again my own opinon.

I recall seeing Ted Williams play in his last year in 1960 (on TV). I was 8 and really loved baseball. Ted was a "disinterested" fielder. Back then he was always trashed by the Boston media for his attitude which was surly at best. If he played in today's game where there is a lot more tolerance for guys with bad attitudes that can hit it out, no telling what he would have been like to deal with.

While Manny is not a good outfielder, I believe it is a matter of disinterest not inability. I've seen him make many good plays in left at Fenway, taking balls off the monster. He also looks like a pile of laundry on the run with that uni, but that doesn't stop him from hitting, that's for sure. He's had 44 games in LA (160 ABs), is hitting .400, with 64 hits, 14 HRs, 44 RBI, a .485 OBP and is slugging .738. Wow.

I consider Clemente overrated simply because people make him out to be more than he was. Clearly a great player, he was not near the upper end of the all-timers. Sorry, but for me a rightfielder, a power position where you have a guy who averaged 87 RBI and 16 HRs a season is not one of the very best. He never led the league in any major offensive stat except BA/hits and drove in over 100 runs only twice. He might have deserved to make it into the Hall on his fielding alone.

Parker was 339/1,493 RBI/.471 slugging and as others have said, could and should have been ever better. His career reminds me of Richie Allen's who was a 351/1,119/.534 guy but leaves you feeling like there was more.

[king99]

Joe, I know you think of RF as power position as do many, but that alone is an overrated notion.

Other than Hank Aaron and Ruth, we all can come up with many, but it is not a prerequisite at all. In fact dewey Evans is one of the acknowledged ALL Time RF's and he is not near a 500HR guy either.


Clemente's only deficiecny if it even is one , I think not, was his power numbers and he more than made up for that by how well he played the field , ran the bases etc a .317 hitter with the auto stat of 3000 hits, he was an easy HOF'er.

To Parker, if Parker had 7 more RBI's he would have had to be in, every 1500 RBI guy ever is in the HOF as far as I know.

There are 4 stats that are auto:

500HR's which is why Kingman and canseco were literally balck balled in my view out of the game, sure either could have hit another 55-65 HR's hangimng on longer, Kingman as poor an avg hitter as he was , was way more a threat than Richie Sexon.

3000 Hits

300 wins

1500 RBI's


Here is a whack stat for ya, who has more 100 RBI seasons, Beltran or Mickey Mantle?

[king99]

Richie Allen ? One of my early favorites, major hitter, did himself in career wise

I think he pushed a stopped car, put hand thru tailight and severed tendon?

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Joe, I know you think of RF as power position as do many, but that alone is an overrated notion.

Other than Hank Aaron and Ruth, we all can come up with many, but it is not a prerequisite at all. In fact dewey Evans is one of the acknowledged ALL Time RF's and he is not near a 500HR guy either.


Clemente's only deficiency if it even is one , I think not, was his power numbers and he more than made up for that by how well he played the field , ran the bases etc a .317 hitter with the auto stat of 3000 hits, he was an easy HOF'er.

To Parker, if Parker had 7 more RBI's he would have had to be in, every 1500 RBI guy ever is in the HOF as far as I know.

There are 4 stats that are auto:

500HR's which is why Kingman and canseco were literally balck balled in my view out of the game, sure either could have hit another 55-65 HR's hangimng on longer, Kingman as poor an avg hitter as he was , was way more a threat than Richie Sexon.

3000 Hits

300 wins

1500 RBI's


Here is a whack stat for ya, who has more 100 RBI seasons, Beltran or Mickey Mantle?

You don't have to be a 500 homer guy to be a power guy. I never said Clemente wasn't great but he is overrated and his offensive numbers prove it. You know you can't compare numbers across eras, but the fact that he never led the league in any major offensive category except BA/hits points that out.

As for the Mantle/Beltran question, refer to the above - you can't compare numbers across eras and we all know that Mantle was his own worst enemy in terms of taking care of himself.

I think you will see those stats become less automatic as far as entry to the Hall goes. At least I hope you will. The offensive stats are less meaningful than they once were in terms of accumulated numbers, i.e. 500 homers.

[king99]

Joe?

Agreed

Agreed

Agreed

How is that for a trifecta, I was only kidding about Beltran comparison item, but RBI's are not a subject to scrutiny in my view as HR's are, you either knock in runs when available or you do not.

I als0 would like bar raised on auto numbers, BUt I do not see that happening, there are NOT that many additions to 500HR's as folks think, most were dominant power hitters of an era, most, there are compilers for sure, but not that many at 500+.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

You're right about the fact that there are not that many guys who will have 500 coming up. But here's one - Jim Thome 539. Hall of Famer or no?

I DO think RBI numbers are affected by the era. Don't you think that bad pitching contributes to that? How about the fact that fewer guys take any pride at all in their defensive skils? Some do, of course, but you'll go a long time without seeing a truly superior defensive team.

[king99]

Agree again, with most of that.

Thome/ Easy HOF. not a favorite of mine, btu he will wind up with 600+ not even 5--+ and that has to be auto no matter what.

Couple more Clemente tid bits and I will leave it alone.

12 Golden Gloves when those meant something.

led league in Hitting 4 times

Top 5 in MVP balloting 4 times, one win

Led league in RBi's twice for all his power lack of dominance.


Here is something I still cannot get over:

How can guys be super human improved physically over time with PED's or not, and have trouble getting to 225 IP?

How is that even possible? I saw something, Denny McClain? Not America's hero , BUT 31-6 337 Decisions...oh my 41 starts..336 IP

Guys today are babied to 200IP as a big number, and tHEY ARE NOT BETTER pitchers at all. no way, there is no guy out there today under 30 that I go? Wow? There is an HOF'er. maybe guy from SF, but I think he will ultimately get injured.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Pitchers are trained to the current level of mediocrity. If you don't throw a lot of innings in high school, college and the minors, you cannot throw a lot of innings in the majors. It is no different than someone trying to run a marathon without doing any long runs. The current Yankee thinking about limiting young guys' innings is correct ONLY because none of these guys were allowed to train themselves to throw a lot of innings. As a result, you get very few complete games and a preponderence of mediocre middle relievers upon whom the teams are too dependent.

I knew we could wind this thread back to the Mets at some point!:D

[Scotty]

I agree with Joe on Clemente. I have always thought him a bit overrated. More than a few people have commented on this to me. Still he gets in the Hall on .317, 3001 hits and superb fielding.

Kingman is actually the first guy with 400+ HRs not to make the HOF. There will be many others going forward, but he was first. Certainly not a HOFer in my opinion.

Thome is a certain HOFer. 540 HRs easily gets him in. Will probably end up around 570.

Parker was not a fave of mine, but he was probably better than Billy Williams and therefore has a HOF argument. I would not have Williams in. Parker? Probably.

BTW, Greg Maddux has racked up the losses the last 5yrs. He has tied Clemens at 354 wins, but is now 21st on the alltime LOSS list with 226 (Clemens finished with only 184). His ERA (all 23yrs in the National League) is 3.15 and climbing. Time for Greg to get out.

[Reuben Frank]

I agree with Joe on Clemente. I have always thought him a bit overrated. More than a few people have commented on this to me. Still he gets in the Hall on .317, 3001 hits and superb fielding.

i thought clemente finished with exactly 3,000 hits?

last one off jon matlack, the crafty southpaw from west chester?

[Scotty]

i thought clemente finished with exactly 3,000 hits?

last one off jon matlack, the crafty southpaw from west chester?

You are probably right. Was not sure if it was 3000 or 3001. He JUST squeaked in there.

(I liked Matlack!)

[king99]

Scotty?

I will comment on all things:

I hardly think Clemente is overrated, he is what he is. 3000 hits is an easy selection every time, when he got that, there were clearly even less guys who had that.

.317 is a Lofty average, not even marginal.

he was not even a great defensive player, he was a remarkable defensive player.

Thome? Only at 570 you have him? Is he retiring? He has 540, she should get 600 no?

That is interesting stat on KIngman,I did not know that but suspected it was something like that and good thing they pushed him out of the game or he would have to be in at 500+ had he hung on for two more years.

Billy Williams I believe had over almost 100 more HR's than Parker, I have no issue with him in. Parker is just outside.


Maddux spread is still dominant W-L wise. ERA is rising though, he should indeed retire.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

King, no one is saying that Clemente is not great; he CLEARLY was. I am just saying that is is NOT a top end Hall of Famer with guys like Cobb, Ruth, Williams or even Mays. Many people think and/or imply that he was.

[Scotty]

Kinger, I took another look at Parker. I thought he has 439 HRs, not the 339 he actually had. No question, Parker is NOT a HOFer.

Williams (426 HRs, 1475 and .290) is still a border line case IMO. As I have said many times, Jim Bunning getting in the Hall as always bothered me. He should not be there.

I agree, Clemente gets in. But I agree with JL, he was not dominant. He ended up with exactly 3000, hit .317 and was a sensational fielder. 240 HRs, 1305 Ribbies and .475 slugging are nothing great, but he is a HOFer, I agree.

Thome may not play beyond next yr. 30 more gets him to 570 HRs. May need 3 more seasons to reach 600.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

I know Thome is getting in but I have never thought of him as a dominant player.

[Reuben Frank]

i've got five BBWA hall of fame voters here in the eagles press room with me and all give thome thumbs up

six 40-HR seasons & .279 career avg., respectable for a slugger

he's at 539 HRs right now with 32 this year and one more 30-HR year gets him to 570 or so 575 or so ... 573 gets him into all-time top 10 (assuming A-Rod gets there first)

he's in

[Joe Lanzalotto]

i've got five BBWA hall of fame voters here in the eagles press room with me and all give thome thumbs up

six 40-HR seasons & .279 career avg., respectable for a slugger

he's at 539 HRs right now with 32 this year and one more 30-HR year gets him to 570 or so 575 or so ... 573 gets him into all-time top 10 (assuming A-Rod gets there first)

he's in

No question. You think of him as a guy that teams had to prepare for when he came to town? Was he ever at the top of the list in his league of guys who were feared and thought of as one of the best sluggers in the game?

[king99]

Surely THome gets in

I am really unsettled about Clemente scrutiny, Scotty you say it like "he gets in"??

he is already in, and should have been as easiliy as he got there.

There are 286 members of the HOF, Clemente is number 27 in ALL TIME HITs, he is hardly marginal

Roob , ask same guys if any voted for Bunning, if so, they should give back their votes..and why no Blyleven

AND,...how many do not vote for Jim Rice, who was A dominant slugger in his playing window prime

By the way Scotty as you said, when they stopped the presses and voted Billy Williams in no one knew guys would hit 400 HRS as easily as now.

He also had 1475 RBI's? 1500 is an auto stat number.

Joe L? Thome was in the TOP 5 in his league in HR's EIGHT times..I would say as 1 of 5 guys in a league that was a sure hR threat, he was fairly well prepared for?

he has driven in 100 runs or more 9 times..that is a LOT.

[king99]

Scotty knows..I LOVE HOF discussions, we(guys I Knew from wharton) used to do every Fiiday night for 8 years..hahaha, we covered everyone..

Now they're just JW's dead money in Hold 'Em, hahahahaha:D just kidding.Great friends.

[Scotty]

Surely THome gets in

I am really unsettled about Clemente scrutiny, Scotty you say it like "he gets in"??

he is already in, and should have been as easiliy as he got there.

There are 286 members of the HOF, Clemente is number 27 in ALL TIME HITs, he is hardly marginal

Roob , ask same guys if any voted for Bunning, if so, they should give back their votes..and why no Blyleven

AND,...how many do not vote for Jim Rice, who was A dominant slugger in his playing window prime

By the way Scotty as you said, when they stopped the presses and voted Billy Williams in no one knew guys would hit 400 HRS as easily as now.

He also had 1475 RBI's? 1500 is an auto stat number.

Joe L? Thome was in the TOP 5 in his league in HR's EIGHT times..I would say as 1 of 5 guys in a league that was a sure hR threat, he was fairly well prepared for?

he has driven in 100 runs or more 9 times..that is a LOT.

We agree...Clemente is a HOFer. He simply was not a dominant player at the plate.

Blyleven LOST 250 games. 287-250 is not Hall worthy IMO. He has no real argument.

Williams comes up short of 500, 1500 and .300.....I would not have him there, but he is in (barely, I imagine).

If Thome plays 2 more yrs (he'll be 40 in Aug of 2010) he has a real shot at 600 HRs. If he comes up a couple short, he will be tempted to return for a final yr.

[backintheday]

We agree...Clemente is a HOFer. He simply was not a dominant player at the plate.

Blyleven LOST 250 games. 287-250 is not Hall worthy IMO. He has no real argument.

Williams comes up short of 500, 1500 and .300.....I would not have him there, but he is in (barely, I imagine).

If Thome plays 2 more yrs (he'll be 40 in Aug of 2010) he has a real shot at 600 HRs. If he comes up a couple short, he will be tempted to return for a final yr.

Show me....Tho me !! He played in Philly for a couple of years....while he was here - he was far from being a dominant player let alone a Hall of Famer. He's playing in the live ball era - homers are much cheaper now now back in the day !! I'll take Clemente any day.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Joe L? Thome was in the TOP 5 in his league in HR's EIGHT times..I would say as 1 of 5 guys in a league that was a sure hR threat, he was fairly well prepared for?

he has driven in 100 runs or more 9 times..that is a LOT.

It is easy to get infatuated with the numbers but 500 HRs and 100 RBI don't mean as much as they used to. Thome will end up with more HRs and RBI than Mike Schmidt; no way he is as good IMO. He already has more HRs than Ted Williams; you know how much that means. The number can lie if you don't put them in perspective.

He passed McCovey and Stargell in homers and will pass them in RBIs very soon. No way I put him in the same class with those guys.

[Paul Schwartz]

1. Richie Scheinblum -- Englewood, NJ -- had reverse cycle, thrown out at every base in one game!!!!

2. Roberto Clemente -- could have been in Dodger OF but lost to Pirates in draft after he was IL POY at Montreal I think in 1954

3. Not only best RF arm ever (other than Carl Furillo!!!) But was 1st great Puerto Rican major leaguer and was a terrific line drive hitter -- I think batted 2nd much of his career. As someone said earlier -- different era -- 30-35 hrs 100 rbi was big time slugger hen (154 games too)

4. Jim Thome -- HOF for sure but Rafael Palmiero (dont know if this was mentioned) will NEVER get the votes and I think he had 3000+ hits and 570+ HR -- 'roid era may make it difficult for some numbers guys to get in

5. Manny is best RH hitter in the past 50 years -- no one even close

6. Stan Musial (Just like to bring him up among all-timers -- most underrated great player ever -- oxymoron but true)

7. Mets Anonymous 12 step program -- I think Met wins recently are more excruciating than losses -- where'd David Wright go?

[Paul Schwartz]

Manny is a better HITTER than Aaron or Mays in case you're wondering -- not a better player of course.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

6. Stan Musial (Just like to bring him up among all-timers -- most underrated great player ever -- oxymoron but true)

Truth!

22 seasons

.331 BA (led the NL 7 times, led league in hits 6 times with 228 in 1946 and 230 in 1948 - 154 game season)

1,951 RBI

.559 slugging (led league 6 times)

475 HRs

.417 OBP (led league 6 times)

3 MVPs, 2nd 4 times

All-Star 20 years in a row (2 games from 1959 - 1962)

[Paul Schwartz]

half his career at 1B and half in OF

[dcsonic17]

I felt more confident and comfortable with Manny at the plate than Ortiz...even during Ortiz's heroics in 2004. Manny won many games for us by taking 1 swing. Take that away from any team, and that hurts your chances.

But, in a recent WEEI interview, players were saying it was 'Carl Everett 2.0'...Manny was never that bad in the past. Group of guys on the Sox need a loose, comfortable atmosphere, when Manny was happy it was Golden...when he wasn't, it could be hell. Can't have a team's pysche and demeanor shift day/day because of one primadonna player. Francona was not crying when he left, whether you believe that or not.

[Scotty]

On Jim Rice:

He comes up about 20 HRs and 100 RBIs of HOF numbers. He also went from .300 (.2997) to .298 (.2984) in his last abbreviated season. Too bad because his skills diminished very quickly. Sort dropped of the table in last 2 seasons.

That said, he was certainly a better, more feared player than Tony Perez ever was and Perez in in the Hall. He should not be. Rice? I could go either way. His 406 total bases in 1978 was a year to remember.

[scott c]

It is easy to get infatuated with the numbers but 500 HRs and 100 RBI don't mean as much as they used to. Thome will end up with more HRs and RBI than Mike Schmidt; no way he is as good IMO. He already has more HRs than Ted Williams; you know how much that means. The number can lie if you don't put them in perspective.

He passed McCovey and Stargell in homers and will pass them in RBIs very soon. No way I put him in the same class with those guys.

Wow, I had no idea this baseball discussion was going on. I don't check in as much as I used to :)

For Ted Williams, add 140 homers and 450 RBIs to his career totals. At least. That's what the Splinter likely lost to WWII and Korea. Williams served in '43, '44, '45, '52 and most of '53 at the ages of 24-26 and 33-34. Still prime years, although he was more of a part-time player for the seven years he played after Korea.

Makes me wish I was born a lot earlier, as does Musial.

More on Williams, thanks to baseball-reference.com. He was top three in MVP voting for the two years prior to his WWII service and the four years after returning. We all know he won the triple crown and lost to Dimaggio and his streak in 1941. The following year he was completely jobbed because his .356, 36, 137 couldn't beat out Yankee second baseman Joe "Flash" Gordon and his .322, 18, 103.

After winning MVP in 1946, Dimaggio (.315, 20, 97) beat Williams (.343, 32, 114) by one point in 1947. Williams finished third in 1948 before winning again in 1949.

Unbelievable. The man's career OBP was .482 and from 1941 to 1949 his single season low was .490.

[FIRE CHIEF]

King, my dad graduated high school in 74, he is 52 now. I think that's about the same age as you.

He's always told me about baseball and basketball. He goes to the Steelers games, but isn't a huge football fan. More of a tailgating fan haha.

I guess he has settled down with his age cause he was pretty much a bad guy in his 20's. I have no complaints though...look how I turned out!:D

[scott c]

5. Manny is best RH hitter in the past 50 years -- no one even close


Wow, what a strong statement. I know how much you love baseball, Paul, so I'm not going to argue one bit. It's just funny that before a certain superstar came to New York, he was considered superior to Manny in just about every way. From 1996 to 2003, ARod was ahead of ManRam in MVP voting 5 times and trailed just twice.

I love www.baseball-reference.com by the way and just spent 15 minutes over there.

FYI - In 1998, ARod was in the 40-40 club, while hitting .320 and finished 9th in the MVP voting.

Manny Ramirez has never even been top two in MVP voting.

[Reuben Frank]

I love www.baseball-reference.com by the way and just spent 15 minutes over there.

www.pro-football-reference.com was so valuable doing research for the book I did with Sal. incredible site

i think any conversation about best pure hitter ever has to include Brian Schneider

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Wow, what a strong statement. I know how much you love baseball, Paul, so I'm not going to argue one bit. It's just funny that before a certain superstar came to New York, he was considered superior to Manny in just about every way. From 1996 to 2003, ARod was ahead of ManRam in MVP voting 5 times and trailed just twice.

I love www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com) by the way and just spent 15 minutes over there.

FYI - In 1998, ARod was in the 40-40 club, while hitting .320 and finished 9th in the MVP voting.

Manny Ramirez has never even been top two in MVP voting.

I'm not going to argue with him because I don't want to get him started, but how about Willie Mays? Does that constitute an argument?

[FIRE CHIEF]

I'm not going to argue with him because I don't want to get him started, but how about Willie Mays? Does that constitute an argument?

It's too early for Pujols...but he needs a place held at least. He's done something that pretty much nobody ever has in the first 8 years of their career.

Too bad he's going to miss all of next season.

[Scotty]

Wow, I had no idea this baseball discussion was going on. I don't check in as much as I used to :)

For Ted Williams, add 140 homers and 450 RBIs to his career totals. At least. That's what the Splinter likely lost to WWII and Korea. Williams served in '43, '44, '45, '52 and most of '53 at the ages of 24-26 and 33-34. Still prime years, although he was more of a part-time player for the seven years he played after Korea.

Makes me wish I was born a lot earlier, as does Musial.

More on Williams, thanks to baseball-reference.com. He was top three in MVP voting for the two years prior to his WWII service and the four years after returning. We all know he won the triple crown and lost to Dimaggio and his streak in 1941. The following year he was completely jobbed because his .356, 36, 137 couldn't beat out Yankee second baseman Joe "Flash" Gordon and his .322, 18, 103.

After winning MVP in 1946, Dimaggio (.315, 20, 97) beat Williams (.343, 32, 114) by one point in 1947. Williams finished third in 1948 before winning again in 1949.

Unbelievable. The man's career OBP was .482 and from 1941 to 1949 his single season low was .490.

Excellent post. Williams, who was clearly better than DiMaggio, would have had truly ridiculous numbers had it not been for his absence from the game.

The fact that he did not win the MVP in 1941 and 1942 is an embarrassment to MLB.
Now that you have shown me 1947, not sure how he lost there either.

If Manny plays 3 more yrs (and retires at 39yrs and 6mos old), he would likely finish with 615 HRs, 2,020 RBIs and a .314 BA. Those are Mays numbers! Of course, Mays was the greatest outfielder of alltime. Still, Manny is on par to produce remarkably similar offensive stats.

[king99]

Scotty, Clearly Williams was a better offensive player than DiMaggio, and you know I am not a Yankees guy, but he and Mays are considered by MOST, not all, to be the greatest CF's ever.Dimaggio was an ALL TIME great on any level, do not let the power numbers trick ya, he was a complete player who could dominate a bunch of ways. Williams only offensively.

Mays any of 3-4 ways.

ARod, as ScottC alluded, not one of my favorites will dwarf even Manny when he is done as a RH hitter.

[Joe Lanzalotto]

It's too early for Pujols...but he needs a place held at least. He's done something that pretty much nobody ever has in the first 8 years of their career.

Too bad he's going to miss all of next season.

No argument from me.

Is it definite that he is going to miss the entire season?

[Scotty]

Scotty, Clearly Williams was a better offensive player than DiMaggio, and you know I am not a Yankees guy, but he and Mays are considered by MOST, not all, to be the greatest CF's ever.Dimaggio was an ALL TIME great on any level, do not let the power numbers trick ya, he was a complete player who could dominate a bunch of ways. Williams only offensively.

Mays any of 3-4 ways.

ARod, as ScottC alluded, not one of my favorites will dwarf even Manny when he is done as a RH hitter.

Kinger,
Williams still the better player than DiMag, though JD was only behind Mays (and maybe Griffey Jr) in centerfield.

ARod stat: Upon reaching his 30th birthday, ARod had more hits than Rose, more Homers than Bonds, and more runs than Rickey Henderson did at that same age marker.

[Paul Schwartz]

Mays clearly better player -- no discussion needed
Aaron also better overall but as pure hitter
Manny Manny Manny

Although Albert Pujols is well on his way to bettering that

A-Rod is a great numbers guy but maybe I should have said most feared RH hitter of last 50 years -- A-Rod should be the greatest of all time but he just isn't and everyone knows why

bases loaded two out down 4-3 in ninth lefty on the mound who do you want up A-Rod or Manny?; Willie or Manny; Hank or Manny?

I think Manny's the answer in all 3 but Pujols I agree is coming

Schneider for President!!!

Great foreign affairs experience -- he played in Canada!!!!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Yeah, Paul, I read your post. I mean, who doesn't read 'em?:rolleyes:

I'll take Wille.

Yea, I read your post.:p

[homeless]

Glad to see the program has taken off in my absence...I've been operating under the theory that:

"if a Mets reliever comes in, but I don't see it, does he really give up 5 runs?"

[hilltopper15]

YA GOTTA BELIEVE

[RunRichard11311]

YA GOTTA BELIEVE

That the Cubs' minor league team can beat you?

How will you guys like facing us in the playoffs???

:p

[hilltopper15]

That the Cubs' minor league team can beat you?

How will you guys like facing us in the playoffs???

:p


when was soriano demoted to the minor league?

[FIRE CHIEF]

Sorry to say fat jerk Prince Fielder just beat us with a walkoff. I hate the Mets and Brewers equally, I just wish the Pirates would ruin somebody's season but their own for once.

[homeless]

Getting too interesting again.........

[dcsonic17]

Love having that playoff ticket punched:D

[king99]

Mets hae blown SIXTEEN Saves since the All Star break, so the break comes past the half way mark. So there was about 88 games or so? So 74 on back end here?

So, in 70 games the Mets have blown 16 saves, give them a horrible % of 60% games saved.

That is almost 10 Games? They win the division going away by almost 7-8 games, and actually have a chance in play offs?

Whose fault? Now? It was Minaya's, no plan B and ever giving a baseball to Heilman was tantamount to giving an arsonist matches and lighter fluid!!

he should have had a bat in his hand as a kid, not a ball.He was HORRIBLE this year.
That is it in a nut shell Mets fans!! Can I now be the GM?:D

[homeless]

Nice job driving in that run in the 9th. Very nice. Very special.

[GoGMC]

On the radio the other day, they threw out a stat that if games were only 6 innings long that the Mets would have a 12 game lead in the division. If they were 8 innings long they would have a 6 game lead in the division.

[Paul Schwartz]

The Little League Champions!!! (Six inning games)

What I don't get (among a million other things) is why Minaya gets a 4-year extension and Manuel is dangling. Minaya set up this bullpen (albeit they really got bad after Wagner got hurt) and Manuel has kept this team in it all year (and I love his attitude)

I still think Mets get in and if they do I think they're a dangerous team (to the opponents and the fans)

[king99]

What's unny to me Paul? Is that even listening to talk radio this morning Carton?(sp) and Boomer were giving Omar a pass?

I was like screaming into the radio.

I usually fall on the side of the Manager /GM and blame perormance on the players, but?

If your plan was:


Martinez? Ever? I told folks that know me, that he had trouble already when pitching in American league getting to and past 90 pitches in fact his stat lines were horrific after 90+ pitches.It was pointed out when the fired Grady Little kept him in and let Yanks come from behind.

Pedro should never ben a major part of your staff planning , sorry.

A righty major reliever? That could have happened, and how far OFF is their HIS talent evaluation of he thinks ANY of these guys were any good?

Horrible job, Manuel only ills out that line up card. Kind of locked in.

[Paul Schwartz]

I was working

What really irks me is unlike last year, this team has never quit despite lots of reasons to do so

Yes -- their clutch hitting leaves something to be desired in the last month and after leading the NL in productive outs (including sac flies and moving up runners) until this month they seem to be unable to have a productive out in a big spot anymore.

Yes -- Oliver Perez is maddening and any team that signs him longterm better have a bald GM to start cause he'll tear his hair out -- but he's been a pretty good #4

Yes -- Pedro is done and we should have had a better backup so he would have been the fifth starter

Yes -- Their bull pen is a roll of the dice which usually comes up snake eyes no matter who comes in (I jokingly said that a pitcher should be pulled after getting an out because the chances of two straight are so small)

Yes -- they are 5-8 with 4 games to go after going 5-12 in last 17 last year

But...I like this team and its resiliency.

What team would still be alive
without its closer for more than 6 weeks
without its #3 starter for more than 6 weeks
without its then hottest hitter for 2 months (and Church still ain't right)
firing its manager the way they did
with a rookie (basically) as its #2 pitcher
with a pair of rookies stepping in the way Murphy (God I hope he can play second) and Evans did
with two veteran spare (but vital parts) getting hurt with three weeks to go (Tatis and Easley)

I still believe although last night reminded me of the Scioscia game in the 1988 playoffs and the 1985 Pendleton dagger at shea (both of which I saw)

Last year's team flat out quit the last 2 1/2 weeks -- this team hasn't

but boy do they make it hard on you as a fan

[homeless]

This is painful to experience...but it's not completely over yet. As Paul has said, they have been fighting...the Brewers have not been. If I had to pick the Mets or Brewers now, think I'd have to objectively side with the Mets, even with the point we're at in the starting rotation with these few left.

[TMG]

2nd night in a row 6-6 in the 9th, PLEASE give us a better outcome tonight!!!!!

[TMG]

Yessssssssssssssssss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reuben Frank]

http://loot-ninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/mr-met.jpg

[hilltopper15]

YA GOTTA BELIEVE

[RunRichard11311]

YA GOTTA BELIEVE

First intelligent post on this thread. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n8JfGxLeM). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrlLmTh32KI)

[Paul Schwartz]

but resilient!!!!!

Beat Florida!!!!!

[king99]

I have to admit,not being to see the games can help a person:D

I thought this was over at 6-3 in 7th,went to bed, wake up? They win.

[homeless]

I have to admit,not being to see the games can help a person:D

I thought this was over at 6-3 in 7th,went to bed, wake up? They win.

We got lucky the umps saw the need to let them play through the rain...it lightened up after a while, but the game would have at least been postponed...very lucky the game didn't get shut down with the Cubs ahead.

It was pretty crazy...Chruch did one hell of a job to avoid that tag at home...spilled my drink on myself during that...check it out on their MLB website...spilled my coffee this morning watching it again. :D Too cool

Still in charge of our destiny to the extent that we can force a playoff with the Brew crew if we win out

[Paul Schwartz]

Mets win 3, Phils 2 and Brewers 2

Then Mets and Phil tied a game ahead of Brewers

Mets win division on tie breaker

Phils are wild card

Mets-Dodgers first round

Mets home field

Aah dream on!!!!!


King go to Mets. com for pitch by pitch stuff if you can bear it

[TMG]

Let's Go Cubs !!!

[Reuben Frank]

http://andymoore.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/464px-train_wreck_at_montparnasse_1895.png
http://students.umf.maine.edu/~kellybt/index_files/imageSubmarine2sinking.gif
http://www.heanorhistory.org.uk/images/mgo%20bus%20crash%20%20Eastwood%20Station.jpg
http://www.b24.net/stories/annetteimages/Kamenitsa%20plane%20crash.jpg

[GeorgieTheK]

http://homepage.mac.com/lawsonstone1/Sites/blog/images/hindenberg1.jpg


http://www.wolfkiller.net/Chicago/GreatChicagoFire.JPG


http://media.heraldonline.com/smedia/2008/09/25/03/ADDITION_NY_Palin.sff.standalone.prod_affiliate.6. jpg

[Shep]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GTK!!!!!

That last one is classic!!! Especially in light of her "unavailability" after tonight's debate. YIKES! I guess she's studying for her debate.

Poor Mets....

I've been wanting to comment for a while, but these last few games are just killing me. My mom is a huge fan (since before the Amazin's) and she literally has to watch the games in private because she can't take the public shame of her team collapsing like this.

The sign, to me, that this team is in big trouble was the inability to score (save a walked in run) in 3 innings where you have at least a man on third 0 outs!! My dad and I were reduced to tears watching that display. With production like that, you can get all the bullpen support in the world and it wouldn't matter a lick.

And the bullpen woes speak for themselves. I loved Paul's comment about being the LL champs of the world. Maybe they should go to Williamsport, PA and try their luck there....

I'm off to console my mother due to this potentially season-ending loss to the Marlins...:(

[Reuben Frank]

http://images.china.cn/images1/200712/414943.jpg
http://www.heavethehawk.com/blogImages/1107charlie_brown_lucy_football.jpg
http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/3600-724134.jpg
http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/user_pictures/0000/7190/rich_kotitte_profile_page.jpg

[GeorgieTheK]

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l137/neotilldo84/Funny%20Pictures/rugby-can-be-painful.jpg

http://www.thedataroom.com/energy/WD84/images/PaerkerRigCollapse2.jpg

http://kingmagic.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/painful_stairs_slip.jpg

[Reuben Frank]

http://pasc.met.psu.edu/PA_Climatologist/extreme/Floods/johnstown%20flood%20tree%20and%20%20house.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41492000/jpg/_41492194_carap.jpg
http://fracas.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/manilow.jpg
http://www.texasescapes.com/TexasRivers/Images/Austin1935FloodHouseOverDamOPC22A-21.jpg

[GeorgieTheK]

http://pictures.funnyjunksite.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/funny-car-pictures-23.jpg

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/webber.jpg

http://www.yardwear.net/blog/content/binary/beer_spill.jpg

[Reuben Frank]

http://www.archidose.org/Blog/Old/2001986837.jpg
http://www.nbc11.com/2007/0312/11233918_240X180.jpg
http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/buckner1016.jpg
http://jokes.m3rlin.org/files/2007/06/000882-hippo-mud-bath-fat-overweight-women-covered-in-mud.jpg

[TMG]

You guys all give up too easy. Mets are up 2-0 in the 6th, Santana's pitching great, but just in case . . .

[BrianC]

Can Johan pitch on 21 hours rest?

[hilltopper15]

:'(

[Reuben Frank]

http://www.b24.net/stories/annetteimages/Kamenitsa%20plane%20crash.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/La-192-car-pileup2003.jpg
http://foodcourtlunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/celine_dion.jpg
http://eppsnet.com/images/collapsed-bridge.jpg

[BlackIrish]

http://boredsquishy.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/mr_met.jpg
http://api.ning.com/files/tbHVzVzhox-0zDsbu0wHFneRlgXmHgwnGo5wRDv--Pw_/Mr.MetisSad.jpg
http://www.beegewelborn.com/swillstuff/MrMet.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3784/sadmistermetri5.jpg


LOL.

JW


LOL X 2 LOL

[homeless]

Ugh

[westcoaststyle]

GO PHILS!!!!!

[homeless]

Best of luck to the Phils

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Best of luck to the Phils

As a Mets fan, how can you say that? That would be like me pulling for the Red Sox to win.:confused:

[dcsonic17]

As a Mets fan, how can you say that? That would be like me pulling for the Red Sox to win.:confused:

Believe in Boston!!!!

Sox fan or not...what a game! You cannot deny that the Sox have provided some of the classic and historical ;) moments in the past few years...

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Believe in Boston!!!!

Sox fan or not...what a game! You cannot deny that the Sox have provided some of the classic and historical ;) moments in the past few years...


Historical moments in the last few years = oxymoron.

It's ALL about Beckett tomorrow, isn't it?

[Paul Schwartz]

Wasn't that our bullpen I watched last night?:rolleyes:

[dcsonic17]

Historical moments to be remembered Joe...

Big Game James isn't so much. Here we go Lester!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Historical moments to be remembered Joe...

Big Game James isn't so much. Here we go Lester!

I dunno which team I will pull for if, er when the Sox makes the Series. Oh, wait, yes I do - the Phillies. Anybody in the universe but the Red Sox. :p

[SCTNF]

Historical moments to be remembered Joe...

Big Game James isn't so much. Here we go Lester!

are you two going golfing? cuz im pretty sure he has an 8:30am tee time :)... GO PHILS......GO RAY...Who gives a flying **** lets go anybody cuz the Red Sox are out

[dcsonic17]

Eh, we got season tix to the Lakewood Blueclaws, so I'll be a Phillies fan for the Series...not that myself or anyone else in the country outside of Philly will be watching.

Can't win 'em all...made it a series, just didn't have the gas this year. Still woke up and thanked the Heavens above I'm not a Yankee fan. I'll be taking my tee time with Lester(or maybe Youk and Pedroia when they show up in a few weeks to workout:D ) and Joe can go post bail for Joba!

[Joe Lanzalotto]

Eh, we got season tix to the Lakewood Blueclaws, so I'll be a Phillies fan for the Series...not that myself or anyone else in the country outside of Philly will be watching.

Can't win 'em all...made it a series, just didn't have the gas this year. Still woke up and thanked the Heavens above I'm not a Yankee fan. I'll be taking my tee time with Lester(or maybe Youk and Pedroia when they show up in a few weeks to workout:D ) and Joe can go post bail for Joba!

So weak...typical Red Sox fan. The Sox could have WON the World Series and I would be grateful that I wasn't one of their fans. I'd be a Mets fan before I'd root for the Sox.

[homeless]

What time does the Mets game start tonight? :o

[BomberRunner]

April 6th :rolleyes:

[homeless]

Yup...grr...

[BomberRunner]

looks like we have some dethroning to do next year

[maddog72]

Mets fans should feel pretty good that they only finished 3 games back from the WORLD CHAMPIONS.

[BomberRunner]

Mets fans should feel pretty good that they went 11-7 against WORLD CHAMPIONS.

epic fix

[homeless]

Actually, they should feel good that they were leading the World Champs by 3 games on September 12th. Wait...never mind.

JW

It doesn't feel good. Not at all.