Bowdoin vs Holmdel

[lambert]

For anyone that cares, after making my first trip to Bowdoin yesterday I don't think there is any doubt it's tougher than Holmdel.

I've run at Holmdel a million times, but running at Bowdoin just seems to take more out of your legs.

And the times certainly support this as most runners go faster at Holmdel.


For those that haven't run at Bowdoin, it doesn't have anything like the brutal start hill at Holmdel and the bowl is steeper than anything Bowdoin has. But most of the first 1 3/4 miles at Bowdoin is filled with turns and climbs that just never allow you to feel real comfortable. And the back hills in the second mile are no picinic.

And while the last mile at Bowdoin has a couple downhills before flattening out for the last 1,000, it's not nearly as fast as Holmdel's closing 1,000.


Love to hear thoughts from those that have run at both.

[D_Gordon]

I've never run Bowdoin, but based on the times, I would say it's somewhere between Holmdel and Lewis Morris in difficulty -- probably closer to Lewis Morris than one might think because no one runs Lewis Morris after mid-October.

[lambert]

I've never run Bowdoin, but based on the times, I would say it's somewhere between Holmdel and Lewis Morris in difficulty -- probably closer to Lewis Morris than one might think because no one runs Lewis Morris after mid-October.



Lewis Morris is still the toughest I've ever seen.

Udland's times show that: 16:11 at LM (he was running all out to break course record). 15:36 at Holmdel.

[SEAURCHIN]

According to the "historians" who post on these threads:

Sunken Meadow 5K is approximately 15 seconds slower than Holmdel Park 5K
Sunken Meadow 5K is approximately 5 seconds slower than Bowdoin Park 5K

In conclusion, Bowdoin Park 5K is approximately 10 seconds slower than the Holmdel Park 5K. ;)

I also would imagine that the 5K times run on the course at VCP are approximately equal to those run on the 5K course at Holmdel Park.

[Scotty]

According to the "historians" who post on these threads:

Sunken Meadow 5K is approximately 15 seconds slower than Holmdel Park 5K
Sunken Meadow 5K is approximately 5 seconds slower than Bowdoin Park 5K

In conclusion, Bowdoin Park 5K is approximately 10 seconds slower than the Holmdel Park 5K. ;)

I also would imagine that the 5K times run on the course at VCP are approximately equal to those run on the 5K course at Holmdel Park.

Correct on all counts (looks like some of my work:) )

Sunken Meadow is the toughest/slowest of all. No doubt. Bowdoin runs about 5sec faster than SM, and a good 10-11 sec slower than Holmdel/Vanny.

[SEAURCHIN]

Correct on all counts (looks like some of my work:) )

Sunken Meadow is the toughest/slowest of all. No doubt. Bowdoin runs about 5sec faster than SM, and a good 10-11 sec slower than Holmdel/Vanny.

Scotty-

You are definitely one of the "historians" whom I was alluding to! ;)

[TrackCoach]

It is very difficult to compare XC courses… beyond the obvious topographical differences; there are many softer variables such as the point in the season, how often you run on the course, whether, course conditions, type of race (duo, invitational, champ), direction changes, surface (packed dirt, sand/loose dirt, grass, gravel, wood chips), etc . And, you can't always determine difficulty by how a particular athlete performed there versus another course, because athletes handle certain courses differently; guys with long loopy strides tend to make up a lot of ground on down hills and long straights, short choppy strides are better at navigating, turns, ruts in the ground, smaller runner in general do better on hills, big guys do better in the wind. Obviously there are generalizations, but you get the point.

XC course comparisons require a historical analysis. With that said, I think Lewis Morris, Bowdoin, Sunken Meadow are definitely tougher than Holmdel; GCC, VCP, Rose Tree and Belmont are ‘about’ equal to Holmdel. That brings me to Rosa and Ley; I think they may have had their best races earlier in the season. I m not saying they have peaked, but what Rosa did at Belmont and what Ley did on GCC are ‘nearly equal’ to course records at Holmdel.

I welcome arguments…which I know are coming!

[Rob A]

Lewis Morris is still the toughest I've ever seen.

Udland's times show that: 16:11 at LM (he was running all out to break courser record). 15:36 at Holmdel.

I don't know about 100% all out. He definitely ran hard, but I'm thinking more like 90-95%. He was running solo, and did a fartlek workout immediately following the race (I witnessed it on my cooldown).

[LCSHSfan]

Our girls said that the Bowdoin course on Sat. was muddy and slippery on parts of the hills, which might have slowed down the times a little too.

[GeorgieTheK]

For anyone that cares, after making my first trip to Bowdoin yesterday I don't think there is any doubt it's tougher than Holmdel.

I've run at Holmdel a million times, but running at Bowdoin just seems to take more out of your legs.

And the times certainly support this as most runners go faster at Holmdel.


For those that haven't run at Bowdoin, it doesn't have anything like the brutal start hill at Holmdel and the bowl is steeper than anything Bowdoin has. But most of the first 1 3/4 miles at Bowdoin is filled with turns and climbs that just never allow you to feel real comfortable. And the back hills in the second mile are no picinic.

And while the last mile at Bowdoin has a couple downhills before flattening out for the last 1,000, it's not nearly as fast as Holmdel's closing 1,000.


Love to hear thoughts from those that have run at both.


I think most observers of the sport will agree that Bowdoin runs slower than Holmdel. How much slower all depends...more and more NJ teams are getting some chances at Bowdoin, but obviously, no NY teams get the chance to run at Holmdel.

It's difficult to predict times based on one chance to run (and no chances to train) on a course a year. No margin of error, no chance to learn the ins and outs of the course.

[Kalaby]

I think there have been 47 sub-16:00 performers at Holmdel and 20 at Bowdoin since 1989.

[ljstella]

So are we saying that Bowdoin is a HARDER course than Holmdel? or just a slower course? My school used to run all its dual meets in an area around the school...it was a simple rectangle and was down the road, or the side of the road. However, it was sooo slow, because of the long straight-aways being mentally defeating.

[Ultimatex]

Throughout my 4 years of high school, I raced the 5K at Holmdel 13 times.

I raced Bowdoin only twice and both times were my senior year: once on a scorching hot day in September (I believe it was the Bowdoin Invitational) and the second time at NTN Northeast.

Mile 1:

Holmdel's first 800 meters are a lot tougher than Bowdoin's, but that reverses over the next 800 when you climb at Bowdoin and just sort of cruise along for the most part at Holmdel. Overall, I would say the first miles are very comparable.

Mile 2:

The next 800 is obviously much easier at Holmdel, with the downhill part of the bowl. At Bowdoin from 1-1.5 miles may be the most difficult part of the course, as those back hills are very steep, and the turns slow you down as well.
The exact opposite occurs over the next 800 meters, as you climb the bowl at Holmdel and start your downhill at Bowdoin.
I would consider the second mile at Bowdoin about 5 seconds slower than at Holmdel, mainly because of the turns in the back hills, and the fact that Bowdoin’s downhills from 1.5 to 2 miles are not as steep as the downhill part of the bowl.

Mile 3:

You fly on the downhills from 2 to 2.5 at Bowdoin with the rest being flat, whereas at Holmdel 2 to a little past 2.5 is flat, and you fly from there until just about the end of the race. Just like mile 2, I would say Holmdel is about 5 seconds easier here. This time it's simply because you descend more.

So, IMO, Bowdoin is roughly 10 seconds slower than Holmdel. This is assuming good course conditions (I heard Bowdoin gets real tough when muddy) because I've never experienced Bowdoin in bad conditions.