10-spike bad?

[Arrow]

I've heard people say that too much spikes on a spike is bad. Mines has 10(I didn't notice how many it had when I bought it). Will this affect my performance? My coach also recommend that the sprinters get Middle-distance spikes instead . Hmm

[teamV]

10 spikes isnt bad, im assuming you have some variant of the nike shift plate, which is a very good spike that many pros wear. i wouldnt recommend getting a middle distance spike unless you are a 400 hurdler that lands on your heels. a middle distance spike for 100-400 is dumb, why do you think companies like nike and adidas even bother making sprint spikes at all? your coach is silly

[Ecliptica]

No, 10 spike very good.

[boon322]

I have a pair of the Nike Zoom Shiftfly II's, they have 10 spikes, they've worked wonders .... I personally think a sprinter should wear sprint spikes, depending on what sprint event they do and whats comfortable to them they can vary between different spikes .... I also believe that even a 400 hurdler who lands on his heels should wear spint spikes, so that he either learns not to land on his heels, or he gets injured and therefore learns the hard way....


just my 2 cents...


(10 spikes are fine)

[JSC.Rnr]

I know people who've tried to say that too many spikes is bad, so they only wear 4 in their plate. Frankly, they're idiots.

I wear a minimum of 5 (Maxcat/JSC) for 400/800 but prefer to be wearing 8 at all times. I didn't like the feel of the Shift plate, but I loved the traction it gave.

[Arrow]

My coach told me that unless I am an elite or college runner I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Maybe I'm just slow .. :rolleyes:

[sprinter200]

ive worn milers for 200s/400s i thought they were pretty good for the 400 and for the 200 i deffinalty could tell the difference between them and sprint spikes but then again the milers are very aggressive for a middle distance spike

[teamV]

i can understand wearing milers for sprinting in a pinch, but theres a reason they are called MILERs. i'm sorry i'm just annoyed by your coaches view on track spikes. and yes you will notice the difference between a sprint spike and a middle distance spike

[Arrow]

He's really a well respected and well known coach and has an impressive resume

Maybe I interpreted it the wrong way, don't flame him guys

[Brumund-Smith]

My coach also recommend that the sprinters get Middle-distance spikes instead . Hmm

Does you coach have any sort of rationale behind this?

Also, all you people who think 400m Hurdlers land on their heels, YOU ARE WRONG! Any sort of quality intermediate hurdler will land on the ball of his foot as he lands off the hurdle.

[Brumund-Smith]

Maurice Greene and MJ made heel contact in their events and they don't even do hurdles.

Show me the video. Both of them landed mid-foot. Some people think that coming down off a hurdle will cause you to NEED some cushion on your heel. This, of course, is not true unless you are a very inexperienced or slow hurdler. Even most good steeplechasers don't land on their heels coming off the steeple barriers.

[JumpinSkiing]

The thing with hurdles is a lot of people think it's a jump, well, people who don't know track and might think you need some cushion, the way i think of hurdles is just an extension in your stride pattern, your stride pattern just breaks a little over the hurdle.

[Brumund-Smith]

I don't have any video of MG that close, but you can clearly see heel contact in the replay of MJ's 400m WR. Heel contact does not mean that they land on their heels. Touch mid foot/ball of heel first and the heel makes slight contact with the ground after. A joint must close to an extent to open up properly. Few people have the calf/ankle complex necessary to make 0 heel contact in a sprint.

Yeah but he's not heel-striking. He doesn't need cushion in his heel to help his stride.

[Brumund-Smith]

I didn't say he was heel striking, I said he made contact. You said no quality 400m hurdler does when in fact most 100m sprinters do at some point in the race, let alone 400m sprinters and hurdlers. I also don't really see a problem, especially for hurdlers, having a little bit of cushioning in the heel. Without any, you can be asking for problems if you do slip up (very common in hurdle races).

I know you didn't say he was heal-striking. Those people do not NEED support on their heals in order to run their race. That's all I'm trying to say. Wearing padded-heal spikes in the 400m Hurdles is like preparing for failure.

[Brumund-Smith]

And again, no. 400m hurdles is practically an 800m race from an energy system perspective. I would be surprised if there was anyone who did not make heel contact on ever hurdle series. Before recently, many spikes had slightly padded heels. It was not until the super hard plate phenomenon (which can actually cause many more injuries, while providing little if any benefit) that heels were hard plastic.

Please stop posting when it is obvious you don't have a clue. 400m Hurdles is like an 800m race from an energy system perspective? It lasts an average of 3-4 seconds longer than an open 400m. No, it is not practically an 800m race. That's just plain idiocy. Are you even a 400m hurdler? Please get a clue before you make any more idiotic posts.

[teamV]

i think that the heel contact at the end is from dipping, not part of their regular form

[Brumund-Smith]

davan, please save yourself further embarrassment by not posting anymore, okay? You're only making a fool of yourself. Oh, and your little swimming analogy is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. I want you to explain to me how running a 400m Hurdle race more closely resembles the energy requirements of an 800m race than a 400m race. If that were the case, then why don't all these 400m hurdlers run world class 800m times? Also, it appears the only real basic difference from a 400m race to a 400m Hurdle race is that you have to be able to jump forward during the event (plus balance and all that stuff). Now which athletes are generally better long jumpers, 400m runners or 800m runners? You seriously don't have a CLUE what you are talking about here, and your pathetic attempts to save face are only further revealing your stupidity.

As for those photos, those people are leaning! They are going to heel strike when they lean because they are trying to dip their center of gravity lower in order to lean at the line. Those other pictures do not show that Maurice Greene (one example, by the way) is making a significant impact with his heel. I realize you do not have an unlimited amount of pictures available here, and you can't really put a video up on here, so this is really the best evidence you can present. But even despite that, Maurice Greene does not need some padded heel support in order to run his races. If anything, a heel will get in the way because it will take away some of that minimal clearance (you can actually see the shadow underneath his heel in one of your photos). One aspect of sprinting is minimizing ground time, so nobody is going to try to maximize the amount of surface area that makes contact with the track.

[Brumund-Smith]

davan, it is hardly worth my time to keep coming on here and pointing out the idiocies of your posts. Even when I try to stoop to your idiot level and point out something very simple, you claim I am the one being stupid. I even gave you some credit by saying that photos are awfully difficult to show heel position, so you back yourself up by showing....more photos! Listen, I have admitted that there is SOME incidental heel contact in a sprint race, just by the nature of the stride and the shoes themselves. In most of those pictures you've showed as 'evidence,' the people were either leaning at the line or their heel truly was not even touching the ground. The heel will come very close to the ground for these people, simply because they are running with dorsiflexion. It is nearly impossible to tell, from a still photo, whether the heel is actually making an impact on the ground, especially from a straight-on view.

As for the LJ point, what else would you call clearing the hurdles? You tried comparing hurdling to running an 800m or SWIMMING! When you take off to clear a hurdle, your body is greatly mimicking a long jump, with the obvious difference being that the hurdler must continue running after the leap. If you were a hurdler (which you obviously are not, otherwise you wouldn't be making such idiotic arguments) you would know this to be true.

Let's hope you have something intelligent to add. I feel dumber just for having read your last few posts.

[remiks]

Should have told this guy to never even race MJ: http://www.athletix.org/Gallery/Oslo400m.jpg

Isn't it obvious his form has fallen apart?

This guy shouldn't have been at the olympic trials: http://www.runnersworld.com/events/...110h_finish.jpg

He's leaning.

Two really bad hurdlers (Olympians) making heel contact: http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo...27OLYtrack6.JPG

You can clearly see shadow in the furthest guy. The other guy, is again, leaning.


Picture of Maurice Greene from behind:
http://www.advantageathletics.com/sprints/Maurice_Greene/MauriceGreen06.jpg
You, again, can clearly see shadow. Although he does make very minimal contact, there's no reason for him to wear spikes with extra padding.

[Brumund-Smith]

davan, you have not proven me wrong once. In fact, you seem to refuse to accept the times when I have clearly proven you wrong. You clearly did not understand the point I was trying to make about the jumping demands in hurdling. Of course I know that long jumpers make heel contact. Hurdlers, however, do not because they must continue running after they have leaped. Any good coach who sees or hears a hurdler heel strike on a takeoff will instruct that athlete not to do so. When hurdling, you can to mimic proper running form as closely as possible. This does not, of course, include taking off with a heel strike.

Comparing leaning at the end of a race to leaning over a hurdle? You have got to be kidding me! Those are two different types of leans. Since you seem to know so little about the hurdles, I doubt you even know why most hurdlers have to lean. Again, you are blatantly flaunting your ignorance.

As far as time not being the only requirement for energy demands, you are partially correct. But we are talking about the 400m Hurdles here. A decent 400m Hurdler will take about 180 steps in a race. Of those, twenty will be taken will an altered stride. Twenty out of 180, or around 11 percent. Those two altered strides per hurdle are supposed to mimic proper running form as closely as possible. What are the extra energy demands of simply extending the knee of that lead leg a little bit over each hurdle? What are the extra energy demands of bringing that trail leg under the armpit over each hurdle? Well, not much. The hip flexors will be strained a bit more and the body will have to overcome a little more impact as the hips fall from a slightly greater height, but that is about it. So these 'extra energy demands' you keep talking about are very minimal. To anybody who knows much about the hurdles (which clearly does not include you), the energy demands of a 400m Hurdle race are very close to the energy demands of an open 400m race and not even near the energy demands of an 800m race.

You may believe that the idea of setting yourself up for failure by wearing padded shoes in the 400m Hurdles is idiotic, and some people may share those beliefs. After all, elite bicyclists wear helmets even though they don't plan on crashing. But as a coach and athlete I do not like to prepare for failure. Why don't we also have our athletes wear wrist guards because they might break their wrists if they fall? Judging by your previous posts, I really don't have much trouble fathoming how you don't understand this though.

Clearly you need to do a little more research here.

[Brumund-Smith]

Actually, you said no elites do and there are clearly many in a variety of events, in hurdles and outside of hurdles.

You stated that there is a minimal difference between the energy system demands of a 400mh race v.s. the 400m open, yet we can see from the results, it IS very different. There is only one athlete right now who can even compete at the highest level (WC Final) in both events, even though we have multiple guys sub 48, better yet, sub 47.5. If it didn't take that much more energy, why is the WR 400m have over a 3 second differential over the WR 400mh? The speed reachedin the 400mh is simply lower than in the 400m, which therefore would affect the nervous system differently and stress different systems. I dare you to go to one of the boards with elite college and pro coaches (you know where I am speaking) and debate this with them, who have plenty of experience in this.

I am comparing the end of a race to leaning that happens during and AFTER the hurdle because they are both very similar in that there is an anterior pelvic tilt. If you insist that the leaning (anterior pelvic tilt at the end of the race) causes heel contact, then there is no reason it would not for many hurdlers in a hurdle race.

Taping of the wrists is completely different from heel contact, since heel contact is a given and biomechanically impossible in good conditions for many athletes, while falling can be minimized and is not a given for every athlete.

There is a difference also in a padded heel as in distance or in a waffle an something like the JSC's or a middle distance spike that have a softer, more flexible heel than say, the adidas demolishers or a similar shoe.

Easily your most intelligent post yet (not saying much), but still very flawed. First of all, I never said that no elites heel strike. Never said it. You're making that crap up yourself.

There is a minimal of difference in the energy systems used for the 400m and 400m Hurdles! I can't BELIEVE you don't understand this! Your basis for this is that only one of the 400m H finalists could have made the WC 400m final? Huh? That's idiotic, and how do you even know this? I am pretty sure that Bershawn Jackson and Felix Sanchez (barring this year's injury) could have made the final. The energy systems are slightly different because of the demands of clearing the hurdles and the slight difference in the time of the events (around 2-4 seconds on average).

In every post, you reveal another part of yourself that clearly shows you have no clue about the hurdles. The main reason the elites can run the 400m flat about 2-4 seconds faster than the 400m Hurdles has a lot to do with their stride pattern. In a 400m flat, you can pick whatever stride pattern you want. You don't have to worry about chopping your steps or striding out or anything. In the 400m Hurdles, your stride pattern will dictate your entire race. When Kevin Young ran an open 400m or a 4x400m, did he take such long strides? Probably not, but that is the way he ran the 400m Hurdles best. The stride pattern is what slows you down a bit, plus the twenty steps during the race where you need to use different running form (not to mention the steps where you have to adjust, which always slows you down). I can virtually guarantee you that the second-best event for every elite 400m Hurdler is the open 400m dash.

The lean at the finish line and the lean over a hurdle are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! Look at the INTENT of each. When people lean at the end of a race, they know they don't have to run anymore, so it doesn't matter if their momentum stops on the next step. The hurdlers must keep running, so they have to keep their foot contact underneath their center of gravity. By you even making that statement, it clearly shows you have no idea why the hurdlers must lean. I'm still waiting for your explanation.

I'd also like an explanation from you on which energy systems are used in the 400m and the 400m Hurdles. Since you claim they are so different, I want you to explain to me what they are and how they are stressed in these events.

I'm actually looking forward to your next post, because I know you are going to include some other idiotic explanation that further demonstrates your ability not to just accept that you are clearly wrong.

[Brumund-Smith]

Putting words in people's mouth? I never said they were so different, simply that the 400m hurdles is probably closer in the demands to an 800m than it is a pure 400m from a FITNESS standpoint.

And you are clearly wrong about that.

I am done with this thread because you and I are just saying the same things back and forth and it is clearly getting nowhere.

You are giving up on this argument because you are getting whomped.

[Brumund-Smith]

How am I being whomped? I provide photo evidence, you provide nothing. Elite hurdlers will make heel contact. Go to advantageathletics.com and check out their pics for various hurdles and almost all make heel contact in the step just after landing from the hurdle. You are saying they should avoid this at all times (you even said no elite hurdles makes a heel strike and clearly people in the sequences at that site do make heel contact) and that will cause problems in their achilles most likely (since their individual body was not meant for it).

Go to CF's website and debate with the coaches over there, who have actually coached people to the elite level in the 400m hurdles and ask if the fitness requirements for the 400m hurdles are similar to that of the 800m. All you are saying is that it is not true, yet we have literally one guy who put up elite times in both the 400m and 400m hurdles, even though we had an incredible year for the 400m hurdles with multiple guys dipping below 47.5. Kevin Young is your only other example. I can then use Edwin Moses who put up respectable times in the 800m, right? Providing no information and saying that the purpose of the lean somehow changes the heel contact (BOTH ARE ANTERIOR PELVIC TILTS BUD! Look at how they are bending at the hip! It's almost the same.) and that people at the finish like would want it different is pretty idiotic.

You sure whomped me :rolleyes:.


Everytime you post, it becomes more and more clear that you have absolutely no idea. I have asked you to state what energy systems are used in each event. You haven't done that. I have asked you to state the difference in the purpose behind the leans at the end of the race and going over the hurdle. You haven't done that. Why haven't you? Because you don't know! You are speculating here!

Your 'photo evidence' proved nothing. Even people who aren't in the middle of this ridiculous argument (I call it ridiculous because it is so one-sided) have come on here to show you that you are wrong. You have not shown one picture of an intermediate hurdler coming off a hurdle with their heel clearly impacting the ground. You even put up a site that has pictures that PROVE ME RIGHT! Here are the photos, in sequence:

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4002/hurdle19ba.jpg

[Brumund-Smith]

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/643/hurdle28va.jpg

[Brumund-Smith]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1072/hurdle37ai.jpg

[Brumund-Smith]

And here is another example:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7379/hurdle59rd.jpg

[Brumund-Smith]

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1820/hurdle64ln.jpg

[Brumund-Smith]

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7162/hurdle79wz.jpg

So there is my 'photo evidence.'

[Brumund-Smith]

400m Hurdlers not being world class in the 400m? Are you serious? I figured I would let you go on this one because it was just so stupid. But now I'll give you some evidence here, just from the US team:

Kerron Clement: INDOOR WORLD RECORD HOLDER IN THE 400M DASH!!!, 2005 NCAA Indoor 400m Dash Champ

Angelo Taylor: Anchor leg on USA's Gold Medal 4x400m team at 2001 WC, third leg on USA's Gold Medal 4x400m team at 1999 WC, ran prelims of USA 4x400m team at 2000 Olympics, 1999 USA Indoor 400m Champ, 2002 USA Outdoor 400m Champ, ranked in the top 10 in the world in the 400m dash in 2001 and 2002, has a PR 400m split of 43.60, 400m PR of 44.68

Bennie Brazell: Split 44.8 on LSU's NCAA record 4x400m Relay

Bershawn Jackson: 2005 USA Indoor 400m Champion

James Carter: 2004 USA Indoor 400m Runner-Up

All those guys run regular splits in the 44s. Those guys don't run a lot of open 400m Dashes during the season because they are running the 400m Hurdle races! Trust me, ALL of them are world class in the open 400m. Felix Sanchez barely runs the open 400m and he has a PR of 44.90. Bayano Kamani, a 400m finalist this year, was a multiple NCAA champ in the 4x400m splitting in the 44s. Danny McFarlane, who made the semis at the WCs (48.00 PR) this year, has a 400m PR of 44.90.

[Brumund-Smith]

I am going to say this again for the billionth time:

JUST BECAUSE YOUR HEEL IS NEAR THE GROUND DOES NOT MEAN YOUR HEEL IS ACTUALLY CONTACTING THE GROUND AND USING FORCE TO PUSH OFF!!!

In half those pictures you could see the shadow underneath the people's heels. If you dorsiflex your foot, which you are supposed to do when running the sprints, your heel will come VERY CLOSE to the ground. There might even be some incidental contact. That does not mean you need padded heels! Nobody in those pictures have padded heels!

I am still waiting for your brilliant explanation of how the leans for the hurdles and at the line are different. I am also still waiting for you to come on here and tell me what energy systems are used for the 400m Hurdles.

[Brumund-Smith]

I have no interest in what any of those guys ran indoors besides KC, seeing as the USA indoors does not draw the best competition for the time. As I said, one guy ran a world class time (open, not split) this year. Angelo Taylor ran great times, you are correct on that.

THE INDOOR SEASON IS THE ONLY TIME THESE GUYS HAVE TO RUN THE OPEN 400M!!!

[Brumund-Smith]

You neglect the point I made previously that there is a difference between a hard plastic heel as seen in some sprint spikes and softer plastic or even rubber heels seen in others.

You are correct. There is a difference. The reason there is a hard plastic heel on those spikes is because they are only meant to deal with what basically amounts to incidental contact, which is what occurs in the hurdles. All those photos are of people who are not impacting the ground with their heel using any sort of considerable force. Because of the dorsiflexion of the foot, the heel may contact the ground a bit, but not to give any extra force on the take-off or to cushion the blow on the landing.

My brilliant explanation on how they are different? I don't think they're that different (from a purpose standpoint yes, but little from a mechanical standpoint). An anterior pelvic tilt is an anterior pelvic tilt.

No. Wrong. Try again. You are simplifying it too much. What is the purpose of each? I don't think you know, which is why I am asking you.

If they were that good (able to be in the WC final) at 400m, they would run it. It is a much better paying event at the elite level and also brings much more fame.

So now you need to make the WC final in order to be elite? Where the heck do you get that from? And how do you know the 400m runners get paid more than the 400m hurdlers? Do you have some figures here? I know for a fact the prize money is the same at the WCs for all the events. Also, did you ever hear of a little thing called medals? Bershawn Jackson, Kerron Clement, James Carter, Bennie Brazell and Angelo Taylor all probably have a better chance of medaling in the 400m Hurdles than in the open 400m, which is why they do it! Some of them just plain like running the hurdles. Did that ever cross your mind? Kerron Clement likes the hurdles. He considers himself to be a hurdler. Not everything is motivated by money. Kerron Clement IS good enough to make the WC/Oly final in the 400m, but he doesn't run it. Same deal with Angelo Taylor. Your little assumption is wrong.

Name me any of these hurdlers who are world class in the 800m. Since you said the energy systems of the 400m Hurdles are closer to that of the 800m than the 400m, give me all of their 800m credentials. What are their 800m PRs? How many of them could have even MADE the WCs in the 800m, much less made the final? Also, I am still waiting for your explanation on the energy systems used in the 400m Hurdles.

[boon322]

My 2 Cents

Im a junior... highschool... hurdler... i run 110HH and 400IH... i dont make heel contact during a race unless i screw up and its an accident... i've been reading this little "debate" for a while and i began to study what i do more closely... i did some fast paced runthru's for the 110h and some 400h workouts over the past few days and my heel only made contact with the ground when i would mess up... usually it was coming off of a hurdle that i clipped or hit

i agree with Brumund-Smith for the most part on all his arguments...

1) the 400h/400 are a hell of alot closer than the 400h/800... many times in highschool you see an 800 runner stepping down to a 400 or even a 400h (sean tully did a few 400h last year)... but while this may be the case its HIGHSCHOOL... i've never herd of an elite world class 400h/800 runner...

also note, i ran a 57.8 last year in the 400h, 55.6 in the 400m, and 2:17 in the 800...

2) heel contact shouldnt happen in sprints (up to 400m and including the hurdles) already touched upon my experiance

3) no point in further argument/debate... case closed

[Brumund-Smith]

Not enough time for a lengthy response this second, but here you go as far as 400m hurdlers who are good 800m runners:

From her coach:
"Jana Pittman is doing a whole bunch of plyo-type training, followed the next day by timed efforts from 1min to 3mins (about 1km).

So, incidentally, it appears she is working along a concurrent training model.

Although at the moment she could probably run a powerful 100m and she won an 800m in Melbourne in 2:04, she may struggle to break 24sec for 200 or 53sec for 400m."

Keep in mind 800m has a lot of strategy involved and without running it consistently, can cause problems with race tactics. The race from from January or February of 2004.

Edwin Moses' best in the 800m was 1:48.98 in '83 (in an open event). Some reports of splits of 1:45.xx range. 800 1:44.84 (1979)
400h 47.48 (1982 & 1987) for Harald Schmid in open events (faster splits reported).

So you can come up with ONE GUY who ran elite time in both the 400h and 800m, and he was from 1979? GREAT argument there, buddy. Who is Jana Pittman? Why do we care who she is? She can only run a 53 in the open 400m and you didn't even put down any 400h times of hers! She is not elite in ANY of those events!

Wow.

[Brumund-Smith]

She was world champion.

In what? When?

[Brumund-Smith]

Oh my gosh, Jana Pittman was a World JUNIOR Champion. By mentioning her, you are only proving my point, because she was WJ champ in the 400m and 400m Hurdles. Seriously, GET A CLUE!!!

I'm still waiting for your explanations of the difference in purpose behind the leans and I'm also waiting for you to tell me what energy systems are used in the 400m Hurdles.

[thabreeze]

400m hurdles is practically an 800m race from an energy system perspective.
To put in my 2 pennies...

Davan is right with this statement because Michael Johnson said the same thing himself when he was commentating the 400m hurdles in the 2001 world championships in Edmonton. I have it recorded and was just watching it, and he practically said that statement verbatim.

[Arrow]

What do you mean by energy system though? Amount of Calories burned? You definately burn less calories in 400m and 400H than in 800. Sprint events actually don't burn off that much calories.

[Brumund-Smith]

To put in my 2 pennies...

Davan is right with this statement because Michael Johnson said the same thing himself when he was commentating the 400m hurdles in the 2001 world championships in Edmonton. I have it recorded and was just watching it, and he practically said that statement verbatim.

How many 800m races did MJ compete? Sorry guys, but you can do early-season 800m training for the 400m Hurdles and it will probably help you at the end of the season, but the 400m Hurdles is NOT closer to the 800m than it is the for the 400m. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT!!!

Nobody has come on here and told me about the actual ENERGY SYSTEM DEMANDS of each of the events. If you did so, you would realize this 'debate' (I put that word in quotes because debates usually have two sides that are at least plausible) is completely worthless.

davan, your Jana Pittman argument only serves to prove MY POINT. Anybody who has ever run the hurdles will tell you it is MUCH closer to a 400m than an 800m.

I have run the 400m, the 400m Hurdles and the 800m. So I know what each of the events demands. I still cannot believe you actually think the 400m Hurdles is closer to an 800m race than a 400m race. I'm trying to think if the correct word is 'idiotic' or 'ludicrous.' Can 400m Hurdlers do some 800m training in early season? Yes, absolutely. Do they do 800m training at the end of the season? Not unless they don't want to run fast. However, the 800m training those 400m Hurdlers do at the beginning of the season will much more closely mimic what 800m runners do near their mid-season. What do 800m runners do in the fall? A lot of distance running.

davan, you are tired of debating this because you are WRONG!

[Brumund-Smith]

Yep, you're right. :rolleyes:

Explain to me where I'm wrong. People don't give up on long argument when they're winning.

[JSC.Rnr]

I believe davan is one of those pseudointellectuals that Maddox frequently refers to --and bashes heavily-- in his rants on nerd culture and basically anything else.

[Brumund-Smith]

There is nothing more to present on my side

Well isn't that the truth! You had nothing to begin with!

[Brumund-Smith]

You always use that stupid rolled eyes thing when you have nothing better to say.

[Brumund-Smith]

Also, your previous comment about them training how 800m runners do in the middle of their season is completely wrong because there are MANY different routes that successful 800m runners have taken over the years that often look nothing alike during the same phases.

Yes, but the type of the training I am talking about is what a vast majority of 800m runners do during the competition phase of their season. Your whole point about 400m Hurdlers being closer to 800m runners is completely ridiculous and you showed absolutely no evidence to back it up. You even try to support your claim by stating information that hurt your claim.

When did you quote Charlie Francis in here? The only time you mention his name in here is when you say, "Charlie Francis and others have said it as well" but you don't put down what he actually said. I'm assuming that he coached Jana Pittman since that is the only athlete whose coach you mentioned. However, nowhere in there did Charlie Francis say that the 400m Hurdles was closer to an 800m. All it says it that she won an 800m race in Melbourne in 2:04 (well off what it would take to make a WC final). Also, she did timed efforts from 1-3 min (up to 1km). This is what 400m runners do in the preseason! I have never argued that doing training that resembles 800m train will not help 400m Hurdles. Rather, I am saying that the actual EVENT ITSELF is much closer to the 400m than it is to the 800m. Further more, your mentioning of Jana Pittman only helps my case, since she was the World Junior Champ in the 400m and 400m Hurdles, NOT the 800m.

I remember watching the broadcast of Michael Johnson mentioning the 800m in the 2001 World Championships, but in no way did he say that the 400m Hurdles more closely resembled an 800m than a 400m. I have the tape of that broadcast at my home in Dane, WI, but I won't be there again for a while. If thabreeze could come on here and put MJ's actual quote on here (not verbatim or paraphrased) we could hear what he actually said. I can guarantee you what he said will not back up your argument though.

So from there you have no argument. You obviously were not able to provide any real evidence of people being good at both the 400m Hurdles and the 800m, though I provided a ton of evidence of people being good at both the 400m and the 400m Hurdles.

Your photo evidence of people using their heels in the hurdles was shady at best. The bottom line is that the vast vast vast majority quality hurdlers do not use their heels in the race to exert any force. There might be some incidental contact, yes, but virtually not good hurdlers will need padded heels in order to be better at the hurdles.

davan, time and time again you have completed avoided my question as to which energy systems are used in the events. I think you are purposely avoiding this question because the answer proves me right.

[JSC.Rnr]

You've gotten owned in many debates, give it up and stay out of this thread if you aren't going to add anything to the discussion. This one was debated and done through pictures and the information presented by some of the best athletes and coaches in the world. There is nothing more to present on my side and I am done with it.

JSC - Please stick to biking uphill for your 400m training and wearing shoes with a shroud to take off that hundreth off of your 100m times.

Haha you're a ****ing moron. Where, in any post, did I say that was my only training? The guys you cream yourself too call this time of the year "offseason", dip****. I'm out doing something low-impact that's still beneficial to the end part of my race, and since I have my top end speed still intact I see no problem with it.

I suppose it's the fact that I only squat 3x my body weight that's holding me back, right? Lifting and the 400m OBVIOUSLY use different energy systems.

By the way, the 400h still takes fewer than 120 seconds, meaning that the energy system is still lactic anaerobic. Conveniently for B-S, that's also where the 400m happens to fall. You lost your own argument with that gif. I do hope you realize that, rather than trying to argue that throughout the range of 40-120 seconds the energy demands are identical. The longer duration and slower pace of the 800m shifts the energy source away from the lactic acid end of the spectrum and relies more heavily on muscle glycogen.

Now, the question I ask: Can you run and 11.6/23.1/52.2 triple right now? I expect the answer to that either to be something defensive where you beat around the bush or b/s times, so I'm not sure I really care how you answer.

[Brumund-Smith]

I have to go to bed right now, but here is something quick that can be looked at: http://www.elitetrack.com/messageboard/images/attachments/chart.gif , with respects to Mike from LSU for hosting this. The eccentric impact of clearing the hurdle along with the extra energy expended in having to clear the hurdle itself would produce even more lactic and burn more energy, putting it farther into that energy system more than from a simple time perspective.

Yes there is more lactic acid produced in a 400m Hurdles than in a 400m, but it is still much closer to a 400m energy-wise than it is to an 800m. You either can't see this or you are just trying to muddle up the point to save some face. Guess what? You're going to have a hard time saving any face with all the idiotic arguments you put out here. So just admit you're wrong already.

2:04 in jan-feb for women is elite and probably top 10 or better in the world. It took 2:07 to get to the semis at the WC and this would be for the peak for many of these women in an extremely tactical race. There is no doubt in the right race (if 2:04 can win it, it wasn't the right race) it would have been much lower and probably sub 2.

We're not talking about POTENTIAL times here. If we're going to start doing that, I can start speculating on the times Bershawn Jackson, James Carter and such would run if they trained for the open 400m exclusively. But even assuming Jana Pittman could make the 800m final, that is ONE EXAMPLE. You have no other examples. Sorry, but one example (one that is based purely on potential right now) does not prove you right. When are you going to admit you're wrong?

[Brumund-Smith]

You didn't rebuttle anything. You have yet to bring any proof to the table besides saying, "You're wrong" to everything else that is said.

I have combatted every single incorrect point you have made during this entire 'argument.' It has been difficult keeping up with all the ridiculous crap you've been posting though. You can go back and read the rebuttles because there sure isn't enough space on here for me to post them.


And the 1:44 open 800m and 1:45 split (1:48 open in only race that year) are not elite marks? Give me a break. I think you can look at the results from some recent indoor events and see how big of a deal 2:04 in the winter for her first 800m race is.

That was one guy from three decades ago! That's the best you can do? Of course there are going to be some people who can do both, but that does not make it the norm. The norm is that most 400m Hurdles have the open 400m as their next-best event. There is no disputing this. The evidence on my side is absolutely overwhelming. I went through and listed only and all the five people who have represented the USA in the 400m Hurdles at the last two championships, and all of them have great 400m credentials and no 800m credentials. You either are just plain blind or the most stubborn human being in the history of the world. It is okay to admit you are wrong! You are clearly wrong! Just admit it! It's not going to come as a big shock to anybody.

The 2:04 for an indoor race is good yes, but you said earlier you don't care about the indoor season. That 2:04 could have been the max of her 800m shape. You are basing everything else off potential. Again, SHE WAS WORLD JUNIOR CHAMPION IN THE 400M AND 400M HURDLES! She is better at the 400m than she is at the 800m! This completely disproves your point! Why can't you understand this?

This is getting to the point of being completely ridiculous. You have been proven wrong time and time again. Here are some questions I am still waiting to hear from you:


1. What is the difference in the purpose between leaning at the end of the race and leaning over a hurdle?

2. What are the energy systems used in the 400m, 400m Hurdles and 800m?

3. Where is your Charles Francis quote? Where did he say the 400m Hurdles was closer to the 800m than the 400m?

4. What sort of brain damage do you have?

[remiks]

Already answered, next.

The chart you posted about the energy systems supports Brummond's statement about how the 400mh and the 400 are similar races (not necessarily training) from an energy system perspective. Your chart says that between 40 and 120 seconds, the energy sources are Muscle Glycogen and Lactic Acid. How would, say, a 45 second 400m NOT be closer in an energy perspective to a 48-49 second 400mh? Obviously the 400mh produces more lactic acid than an 800, but why would a 400mh be closer from an energy systems standpoint to an event thats over twice as long?

And to make a point before you assume I'm trying to make you look like a fool (which is far from the case), I justdisagree with your point.

[remiks]

I addressed this already. The eccentric impact from landing when going over the hurdles along with the extra energy needed to hurdle it in the first place will generate much more lactic and expend more energy. This would put it much further into that energy system than from just a time perspective. Time is not the only thing to look at when determining energy system.

I understand that there is more lactic acid generated, but I'm just very skeptical of whether or not the event is that close to being Aerobic. Perhaps you could find more proof to back your claim, since the chart you posted is based entirely on time.

[Brumund-Smith]

You've provided nothing to prove your point. Most of your rebuttles are simply, "NUH-UH!" i.e. the pictures, which are very clear and plenty.[/QUOTE}

I have never said "NUH-UH! in my whole life. Other people have come on here and commented on how BS those pictures were, including ones you posted where you could clearly see the shadow underneath the people's heels. You have posted not one picture that proves people impact their heels on the ground in a hurdle race in such as way that they would need a padded heel. If you actually knew how to hurdle and had done it and had watched the hurdle races, you would realize how completely ridiculous it is to suggest that intermediate hurdlers come crashing down onto their heel while coming off the hurdle.


[QUOTE=davan]Edwin Moses was the other, I don't think he's a bad guy to look at when talking about 400mh (only 800m of the year was a 1:48.xx and reports of a 1:45.xx split another year in his only 4x8)! I'd be interested in seeing what some of the elites opened with this year in their first race. The other guy was a 47.xx hurdler in his time, as well as a 1:44.xx 800m runner.

Yes, Edwin Moses ran 1:48.98 in the 800m. He was an incredible athlete and a great 400m Hurdler (47.02 and WR holder for over a decade) but that 1:48.98 was not an elite time. Where do you get this 1:45 relay split from? I can guarantee you he was a better 400m runner than 800m runner. This does not prove your point at all. You came up with exactly zero 400m Hurdlers who have run good 800m times in the last TWENTY YEARS!!!

I said that because they were in the less competetive races and didn't run elite times! Bershawn Jackson ran in the 46's for his win (which is the reason you didn't include times when calling him USA nat'l champion, lol), so I am going to doubt it was a very fast or competitive race.

If you don't think Bershawn Jackson is an elite-level 400m runner, you must have some sort of brain damage. He is much better at the 400m than the 800m, I can tell you that much. Apparently being US Champ in the 400m isn't any sort of an accomplishment though. He ran 46.05 in that indoor race (coasting in at the end), which is still better than Edwin Moses's 1:48.98 in an outdoor 800m.


2:04 in jan-feb (they're running outside for their "indoor" season in Australia a lot of times) in your only 800m race is damn good and you can look up other results from GP races as proof. As far as Pittman is concerned, I would be interested in seeing the timetable for the competition, which keeps many doubles from taking place, while making others possible.

Yes, a 2:04 in an indoor 800m is pretty impressive. But that is an example of ONE athlete who has never even made an Olympic or WC final (your requirements for being 'elite'). Even so, Pittman is a better 400m runner than an 800m runner.

I asked the question first, but I will answer anyways (even though it has absolutely no relevance to the point that is being made). The purpose of leaning when clearing a hurdle is to keep the center of mass from raising beyond what is needed for hurdle clearance. Now answer my question of how anterior pelvic tilts, while not clearing the hurdle (which can be seen in various pictures), are significantly different from that of the lean at the end from a biomechanical, not purpose, standpoint? What is the explanation for the heel contact seen in both the 110mh and 400mh at various points in the race?

How you don't see the point of this is beyond me. Of course, you've proven yourself to be an incredible idiot in this thread, so I guess I shouldn't put anything past you. You actually did get the purpose of these somewhat correct though. It only took you, what, a week? The biomechanical difference in the two leans is the relationship between the hips, the center of mass and the surface of the track. You answered your own question in the last post without even realizing it. The purpose of leaning into the hurdle is to keep the center of mass on the same plane. The hurdler will only lean over as far as necessary, whereas the sprinter who is leaning will lean over as far as they can go, with virtually no regard as to whether they stay on their feet or not. In most instances, the person leaning will lower their center of mass while leaning. This drives the legs down into the track, where the heels have little choice but to make contact with the track. It is awfully hard to explain this without photos or video as evidence (especially since I feel like I have to explain everything to you as if you are a three-year old). The location of the hips in relation to the track and the center of mass is much different for a lean at the tape than it is for a lean over the hurdle.

Already answered, next.

You put up a link to a website that proves my point and contradicts what you have previously said. The only information on that sight was the time requirements for each energy source. If that is the case, then you have to admit that my point about the 400m Hurdle times being MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to the 400m than the 800m has to be correct. But you said there were 'other factors.' Where are those other factors on the chart you placed as evidence? I don't see them on there. They must be some huge factors to make up for over the fact that massive time difference. What are these factors?


Pictures and results don't lie. Let's start listing some 400mh who can produce 400m results. We see that we have Kerron Clement and probably Kevin Young at the most elite level (I will give KC benefit of the doubt even though the indoor 400m has not been a competitive event over the years, judging by the times and who runs it).

I have listed 400m Hurdlers who can produce 400m results! You listed exactly one male 400m Hurdler who has run a decent 800m time, and it was from three decades ago! Kerron Clement and Kevin Young are not the only guys who are elite in the 400m. I've listed you Angelo Taylor's credits. He was ranked in the top ten in the World in the 400m in both 2001 and 2002. He has an Olympic gold medal and a WC gold medal in the 4x4. He has split a 43.60! All those other guys can split mid-44 at least. There are others like Angelo Taylor, who won Olympic golds in the 400m Hurdles and 4x400m (Ray Cochrance in 1948 and Glen Davis in 1960).
Danny McFarlane (48.00 400h) split a 44.16 for Jamaica in the 2000 Olympics.
Derrick Adkins split a 45.0 at the NCAA meet in 1992 after doubling back from the 400m Hurdles.
Bennie Brazell split a 44.7 at the 2004 NCAA champ doubling back from the 400m Hurdles.
Andre Phillips (88 Oly champ) split a 44.0 in 1985.
Danny Harris (84 silver medalist) split a 44.3 in 1985.
Harald Schmid (88 bronze) split a 44.5 in 1986.
James Carter ran a 45.0 lead-off on a 4x4 in 2002.
Winthrop Graham (92 silver) split a 44.81 at the 1991 WCs
Kriss Akabusi (92 bronze) split a 44.2 in 1991
Naman Keita (04 bronze) split a 44.1 in 2003
Llewelyn Herbert (00 bronze) split a 43.86 in 1997
David Hemery (68 gold) split a 44.6 in 1968
Gerhard Hennige (68 silver) split a 44.7 in 1968
Bershawn Jackson split a 44.6 in 2003
There are countless examples

[Brumund-Smith]

Don't have time to reply to all this now, so I'll just reply to the quick stuff.

Splits splits splits and how many open times? The 1:48.x is what Webb opened up with this year for his 800m races, so I'd say it is a pretty impressive time for the only run of the year.

What is wrong with 4x4 splits? You're trying to pass off some Edwin Moses 4x8 split (though you apparently don't know when or where it happened). Most of these guys don't run many or any open 400m races during the outdoor season. They do, however, get to run some 4x4s at World Championships or other quality meets. That is why I have listed all these splits. Even the open 400m times I have listed completely blow away the 800m times you have listed for other people, so you don't have an argument there either.

Webb is a miler, not an 800m runner. Your whole point here was that the people had to run ELITE times. Just because Webb ran something at the beginning of the year does not make it an elite time. Alan Webb is ranked 117th in the world in the 800m this year. The 117th ranked 400m time in 2005 is 46.08, which is slower than Bershawn Jackson's winning INDOOR time from 2003 that you seem to think doesn't matter at all. Once again, the facts prove you wrong.


The shadows under the heel (only apparent in some pictures) were very small

DUH!!!!

I enjoy how you continually insult when you cannot provide proof/evidence. I did not "kind of" get the purpose right, I did get it right, so don't try to belittle what is being said when it is correct.

You got part of it right, but it was incomplete. If you do not even understand how an anterior pelvic tilt can be different from a lean at the end of a race compared to a lean over a hurdle, there is no way you completely understand the purpose of the lean in hurdling. That is why you 'sort of' got it right. Your explanation was actually better than I was expecting though.

That is how you work though, throw 3 questions for every one I ask or attempt to belittle me, calling me a 3 year old when you are obviously wrong on some of these points.

Put one example on here where I was clearly wrong.


What does time (years these guys competed) matter? We have two guys who would have been atop the 400mh ranks had their career been at this time. I guess referencing guys considered among the best ever (based on times, not just championship wins and what not) is wrong and shouldn't be done.

If your theory was so obvious, you would have been able to come up with ONE example of it being proven in the last twenty years. In the entire history of the sport, you came up with two examples, only one of which actually backs up what you are saying. One example? I gave you dozens.

As far as the anterior pelvic tilt is considered, very few experienced guy lean that much (disregarding whether they stay on their feet or not) as it would affect their times negatively, rarely does it even help since it is often done too soon.

Many people lean too soon. You cannot, however, argue against the fact that virtually anybody who leans at the tape is going to lower their center of gravity, while virtually any male who leans to clear a hurdle is going to raise their center of gravity.

Moving on though, that still does not explain clear pictures of Maurice Greene and MJ making heel contact in various parts of their races (as seen in pictures and especially in MJ's 400m WR).

You have shown not one good picture of Maurice Greene using heel contact during a race (other than on a lean) and you have not shown a picture of MJ using heel contact AT ALL. Go back and look at the pictures again.

It can be seen in almost all of the pictures provided that there must be at the very minimum some heel contact in also every hurdler the step after clearing the hurdle. Provide some photos or videos to support your argument, since I have taken to time to do so with mine.

Go back and look at the pictures I provided and you will see that there are instances when people's heels do not touch the ground at all. For the billionth time, the heel will get very close to the ground due to the dorsiflexion of the foot. The vast vast vast majority of elite athletes will not use the impact of their heels to help them in the race. That is what I have been saying all along, and you have never disputed this point. When I figure out how to put an entire damn video onto this site, I'll do so. If you are a track fan, I'm assuming you have some videos of elite hurdle races around somewhere (though you obviously haven't watched them too closely judging by the comments you have made on here).

I find it funny that you continually insult rather than provide evidence. You try to tear down arguments and provide nothing. Bring something to the table and then we'll talk. Give us some open times (I included opens and splits so we don't get all sorts of ridiculous times here), show some pictures of your points, provide something, please.

I'm insulting you because you are posting ridiculous statements! I have brought this all to the table and you refuse to accept the fact that you are getting absolutely slaughtered in this 'argument.' The facts are completely on my side. The only evidence you have used here that even remotely helps your point are the photos of the races. Most of them are completely bogus anyway. Watch a VIDEO of an elite 400m hurdle race and I believe you will significantly change your tune. As far as the training stuff goes, I have shown far more evidence to back up my side of this debate. Your case is so incredibly weak. It is really mindboggling to me how you can be so blind to the facts.

The eccentric impact from landing when going over the hurdles along with the extra energy needed to hurdle it in the first place will generate much more lactic and expend more energy. This would put it much further into that energy system than from just a time perspective. Time is not the only thing to look at when determining energy system.

You honestly believe that the 20 steps taken over the hurdles make up that big of a difference? Let's use a generic example here. Assume somebody can run a 45.0 in the 400m, a 48.0 in the 400m Hurdles and a 1:45.0 in the 800m. Now, that 48.0 is only 3.0 seconds away from the 400m time, but 57.0 seconds away from the 800m time. You said that time was not the only factor in determining lactic acid, which is partially true. Some forms of exercise take up much more energy in a shorter amount of time. In order for the 400m Hurdles to be closer energywise to the 800m, you would really have to account for 75 seconds worth of energy during the race (since that is the midway point between the 45.0 and the 1:45.0). According to what you are claiming, those 20 adjusted steps in the 400m Hurdles accounts for 27-seconds worth of lactic acid? Maybe if the hurdles were sixteen feet high.

How much lactic acid do you think is produced through the eccentric contractions coming off the hurdles. I said 20 steps before, but the hips really aren't coming down very much on the trail leg step, and the pawing action is still there just like in a regular stride, so really you only have 10 steps in the whole race where you have these eccentric contractions. I am 6'1" tall and when I stand up flat-footed on one leg and lift my other leg in the air, there is about 37" between the ground and my ischial tuberosity (the bottom of my butt on the raised leg). That mean I really don't have to leap up at all in order to clear the hurdle. So where am I getting these eccentric contractions, and how can they make such a massive difference in the race?

[JSC.Rnr]

I'd like to get this straight...so to run an elite 400h, you need to have a similar aerobic development to an 800m runner, but to run a sprint (which last time I checked, the 400h is) you must only lift and sprint? Correct, davan?

Please make up your mind, and then leave.

[Brumund-Smith]

As far as MJ, look at his WR race (which I said before). They show in slow motion him from the side and you can see the heel touching (in the clip that is floating on the internet). I'll reply to the rest later.

I've got the race on tape somewhere and I'll watch it. The reason I replied to this is because you said you showed a 'clear picture' of MJ making heel contact during a race. That wasn't true (much like the rest of what you are saying).

[JSC.Rnr]

I don't recall saying that. Low intensity work IS aerobic work, which I am big on and I recommend. Tempo is a form of this. Considering I use a minimum of 3 days a week for low intensity work, I don't know where you are getting that from. Being against biking is different than being against low intensity work, which I am not.

Now this is interesting. You advocate developing only your fast twitch fibers ("lift and run" post in the other thread) but do aerobic work. According to your other posts, you seem to be under the impression that they are mutually exclusive.

Now you say you're in favor of low intensity, aerobic work. Low intensity aerobic work results in far less motor unit recruitment than a high intensity sprint or maximum load lift. Debate the physiology all you want, it's true. CP != AA

Furthermore, training fast twitch fibers to produce a maximum force contraction through any means will result in the same thing -- the ability of the muscle to generate the greatest force possible. You refuse to acknowledge the possibility that it IS possible to train fast twitch fibers through means other than lifting and running, although there are obvious examples.

You're trying to classify strength and power (sport specific power, actually) as the same thing. They're not.

[Soup Nazi]

Wow, this has been a long thread. Davan is actually a pretty knowledgeable guy, he's just been too stubborn to admit that he's clearly in the wrong on some of these points. I have yet to see a picture or video of an elite athlete making significant heel contact in a race to the point that they should be wearing shoes with padded heels. Posting a bunch of pictures of athletes leaning at the tape proves nothing. Show me a picture of MJ or Mo 30m from the tape with their heel clearly striking the ground and you'll make a better point.

As far as the energy system argument, it is clear that 400 Hurdlers are better at the 400 than they are at the 800. At Penn Relays, do you think more coaches use their 400 hurdlers in the 4x800 over the 4x400? I doubt it. If you look at the NCAA level, the two top 400 hurdlers (Benny Brazell and Kerron Clement) both ran anchor leg for their school's 4x100. That seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if they normally compete in an event that's most closely related to the 800.

And I did noticed that Bershawn Jackson ran a 45.70 indoors this year in the 400, which was the fastest time in the world by someone who wasn't an NCAA athlete. I'd call that elite, and it's certainly more impressive than running 1:48 outdoors in the 800.

I think we can all agree that it's not a horrible idea for a beginning hurdler to wear a mid-distance shoe for their long hurdle races. Elite hurdlers needing to have extra heel protection is a completely different situation, and it's pretty ridiculous to even suggest.

[JSC.Rnr]

Actually no. You miss my points entirely.

The point of doing extensive aerobic work / low intensity, which does not affect FT fibers to a significant degree (this is done on purpose) is for a means of recovery between training sessions, increase work capacity, increased capilirization, and more. The whole point is that you do not work the FT fibers and give them time to recover, along with your nervous system.

What I have against a point you were trying to make against biking in a high gear up a hill is this, it isn't that intense! It is very tiring yes, but it hardly takes the amount of power or force that it takes to squat 500+lbs or do box jumps onto a 48"+ box. Not nearly as intense as sprinting fast either. Biking up a hill in a high gear is more intensive than anything and is right in the middle of the high/low spectrum. Nobody can logically argue that biking in a high gear up a hill is as intense on the nervous system as a maximal lift, sprint, plyo. Nobody can logically argue either that anything that requires the recruitment of FT muscles to the degree you are saying to be low intensity, recovery work. If I am going to work speed/power, I am going to work as far at the end of the spectrum as I can, which would include sprints generally 95%+ and lifting that is relatively heavy that complements the sprints. Plyos would obviously fit in this as well (sprinting is an inherently plyometric activity). By doing these activities, I can train my fast twitch fibers in a way specific to the sport I am performing, along with keeping their inherent qualities. By biking in a high gear up a hill, it will require one to recruit FT fibers and then fatigue them. This will cause these fibers to take on characteristics that are not inherently explosive or beneficial to the sprints. Moreover, other aspects of biking, including the limited range of motion, lack of overall intensity, focus on quadriceps, and more make it a very poor option for attempting to develop strength and power (which it does not in any sort of strong individual).

Every elite and successful 100/200m and most long sprint programs differentiate high and low intensity and have a significant amount of both. Very few though have much of the middle intensity (80-90% work), except for in weightlifting (which would still be relatively intense, being done after sprints and such) and through some GPP periods. I don't know of any successful 1/2 programs that use middle intensity work and the only one for the 400m that does successfully is Clyde Hart's, and even his is generally pretty low or high for his most elite athletes (MJ, JW).


This is the post I was waiting for. Thank you for actually making logical arguments based on sound physiology, not just attacks on something.

I do concede that lifting and high intensity sprinting are in a different league from power training via biking. I know full well that maximum load lifting is the best means for improving motor unit recruitment (ask Fanya; I gave an entire lesson on the subject through PM). I should point out, though, that it is the offseason for sprinting and that after October 14th my program switches to MxS lifting and speed training.

As far as limited range of motion and focus on the quadriceps...both problems are alleviated by the use of full length (175mm) crank arms and clipless pedals. Clipless pedals, when using a proper spinning motion, balance out the load between the quads and hamstrings much more effectively than a normal platform or toe-clip. The range of motion, which still limited, is still significant when using a 175mm crank arm, as the foot rarely moves more than a foot in the vertical while sprinting (depending on mechanics; I tend to shuffle more than piston, so it works for me).

[Brumund-Smith]

I provided open times with one split. 1:44 is by far an elite time and can win some of the major championships. The 400m itself has been a weak event for a few years now (since MJ was been gone really) with only one guy dipping below 44.

That's one guy. I provided you with MANY examples. One example does not prove your theory. If you came up with a whole bunch of examples (as I did) then you would help your case. But you came up with one guy who for sure has run an elite-level 800m race who was also a 400m Hurdler.

Just because only one person has broken 44.00 lately doesn't mean the event is weak. You know when the last non-MJ runner to break 44.00 was? Butch Reynold with a 43.91 in the 1996 Olympic Trials. Before that, do you know who it was? Quincy Watt in 1992 (43.50 at Oly, 43.83 later in Zurich). Other than those two, you have to go back to 1988 to find people who have broken 44.00 in the 400m. So in 16 years (1988 to 2004) only three people broke 44.00. Minus MJ, the 400m was weaker from about 93-03 than it is right now. The 400m is a very strong event right now, especially for US runners.

Running 1:48.x as your opener is much more impressive than running 46.08 after running through other meets. Webb is a miler, correct, but the point is to show how good a 1:48.x opener as your only 800m open race that year really is. 46.x after running meets is not too impressive.

That is debatable, but not too far-fetched. Webb had more than just a 1:48 opener this year. If you ask me a 1:48 outdoor 800m is less impressive than a 45.70 indoor 400m (Bershawn Jackson's 400m).


I understand how it can be different, but I really don't see the degree to which it is different and judging from what I see in pictures, the way it effects the overall race from the heel perspective is not much different. Both cause eventual heel contact (unless there is some factor I am not seeing that causes heel contact in almost every case).

You finally admitted you didn't understand something, which is great. The difference in the leans is not too different to the average eye, but when you know the purpose of each and you have performed each, you can certainly tell the difference. Leaning into the hurdle does NOT cause heel contact in most cases because the athletes come out of their buck once they get over the hurdle. This bring the hips underneath the body again. People who lean do not (well, should not) come out of the lean before the finish line, which is why they will take a few steps on their heels. Their center of gravity is being pushed into the track.


If more information was available about 800m open times, then it would be able to be provided. Sadly, there is little information about anything and seeing as people generally stick to the race they are best at (or pays the most), we will probably never see what these people run in even 1 open race (the results we do have are great however).

I was able to post plenty of results from open 400m or split 400m for accomplished 400m Hurdlers. The reason you cannot find similar 800m results is because those same people are not good at those events! The energy systems and demands simply are not close enough to allow most mere mortals to be world-class in both events. Most 400m Hurdlers do have the ability to be world-class in the 400m. They might not make their country's 4x4 team at every WC or Olympic meet, but nonetheless they run what are considered to be world-class times.


I don't think leaning when clearing the hurdle is going to raise your center or gravity, and in fact, keeps it lower than it would be. This is a moot point to the argument however.

Most people have to raise their center of gravity in order to clear a 42" hurdle because most people's center of gravity is not 42" in the air! Now I know it is possible to clear a hurdle while actually having your center of gravity below the height of the hurdle (like a high jumper does), but I have never actually seen anybody with form that would suggest this actually happens. The amount of meters between the hurdles basically restricts the height of most elite high hurdlers to somewhere between 5'10" and 6'2". Even a 6'2" person, in a full running stride, does not have a center of gravity 42" high.

Obviously, this changes for the intermediate hurdlers who only need to clear 36" barriers. Most of them can skim over the hurdes without changing their center of gravity at all. However, if that is the case, your whole point about the eccentric contractions causing a build-up of lactic acids basically goes out the window. If the athletes aren't falling from a higher center of gravity, then how are they experiencing eccentric contractions?




You could have saved all of us so much trouble by just admitting this earlier. It's nice to see my points have at least gotten through to you somewhat.

[QUOTE=davan]I am going to take a stab and say weaker, less fit highschool athletes are making lots of heel contact (even if it is after the balls of the feet touch). I agree with that point that you make here (which is why I never disagreed with it). I will still contend though that for the majority of highschool athletes, a softer heel (as I have described many times) with the possibility of some cushioning is not a bad idea in a long hurdles race where many people (including elite athletes) will fatigue to the point where they are making heel contact, often a significant amount (this is for the highschoolers, not the elites). If we can agree on this, I think we can stop wasting both of our times on other points that are outside of the discussion of the original thread.

I agree with some of this. If you have a high school athlete who absolutely cannot land without hitting the heel, then maybe that athlete should not be hurdling (because he/she almost certainly won't find much success). However, I do not want to discourage anybody from hurdling, so if having them wear a padded heal to save their legs from their terrible hurdle form will keep them in the sport, then yeah, let them wear a padded heel.

The vast vast vast majority of the elites will only make minimal contact on their heel (if any) that does not need any padding other than what is provided by your regular sprint shoes. Let's just stop the whole heel argument (which is actually what this whole thread is about) because it should be obvious to both of us that heel contact in the hurdles is not desirable.


I don't have any EMG studies to show the amount of extra force put on the leg (I doubt there have even been studies done on hurdles period about this), so it is impossible to positively confirm.

Shouldn't common sense answer this question for you? Is the minimal impact made from clearing a hurdle (not much more than a regular impact for the elite hurdlers) going to make an ABSOLUTELY ASTRONOMICAL difference? If it did make that big of a difference, then why are people still able to run within around 3-4 seconds of their 400m PR? You already have to chop off about two seconds just to adjust for the time that the difference in the stride length will make. Do you see now how ridiculous it is to suggest that a 400m Hurdle race is closer to an 800m than a 400m?

You then have to take into consideration there are elite hurdlers 5 inches shorter than you and they are definitely leaping over the hurdles, not simply running over them. If it was so easy, people would clear every hurdle, but this is obviously no the case (not even the WR run was done without a big hit on the hurdle).

Again, if these people are definitely leaping over the hurdles, then they are certainly raising their center of gravity, which goes against the point you made earlier about the differences in leans (between clearing a hurdle and leaning at the tape). Though Bershawn Jackson is maybe five inches shorter than I am, you have to divide that distance in half when you consider how much higher he has to actually 'jump' than I do. While this is really not very plausible, Bershawn Jackson at 5'7" could have the same hip height as I do at 6'1". Head height is how me measure these people, only because I doubt their hip height (which is really more important) is recorded anywhere. When you consider that Bershawn probably only have to raise his hips about four inches (max) in order to clear the hurdle, and his stride over the hurdle is probably around eight feet, that really isn't a jump up hardly at all. It is certainly not easier for him at his height (the World Record Holder is 6'4" for crying out loud), but it does not put him at a huge disadvantage.

By the way, sorry for insulting you so much in the past. You have to admit that the whole 800m argument is pretty ridiculous though.

[thabreeze]

It's pretty obvious that neither of you aren't gonna convnce the other of your point, so why don't you just agree to disagree?

[Brumund-Smith]

It's pretty obvious that neither of you aren't gonna convnce the other of your point, so why don't you just agree to disagree?

Because that wouldn't be any fun.

[teamV]

http://www.onlyfunnypictures.com/pictures/still-retarded.jpg

[Brumund-Smith]

http://www.onlyfunnypictures.com/pictures/still-retarded.jpg

Fine, don't do it then. I have a license in Adaptive Physical Education. Please don't make fun of retarded people anymore.

[Brumund-Smith]

And you have how many? Most guys don't run 4x8 relays because they aren't around at the collegiate level (outside of maybe Penn Relays) and often times the way meets are set-up, it is not able to be done either. If we could see some elite open times, then we can begin talking. It clearly has shown that the times available (we have 3) are all great times.

You have posted three athletes throughout the entire course of time that have run somewhat decent 800m times. Two guys who have run 1:44.83 (Schmid) and 1:48.98 (Moses) and one woman who allegedly ran 2:04 (Pittman). Here are the people I have listed to so far with good open times:

Kerron Clement- 44.57 INDOOR WORLD RECORD HOLDER
Angelo Taylor- 44.68
Danny McFarlane- 44.90
James Carter- 45.0
Bershawn Jackson- 45.70 indoors (USA champ)

Already, even without the multiple split times I have listed, my list is more impressive than yours. But I will add to it just to further prove my point:

Andre Phillips- 44.71
Ricky Harris- 44.83
Samuel Matete- 44.88
Harald Schmid- 44.92
Kriss Akabusi- 44.93
Calvin Davis- 45.04
Kevin Young- 45.11
Stephane Diagana- 45.18
Danny Harris- 45.19
Felix Sanchez- 45.23
Winthrop Graham- 45.59
Edwin Moses- 45.60
Bryan Bronson- 45.66



There is one truly consistent 400m runner right now, v.s. the mid 90's and before when there was much more consistency. There were 45+ second races that won big Grand Prix meets this year. That is appauling.

Andrew Rock isn't consistent? Tyler Christopher? Christopher Brown? LaShawn Merritt? I think you look at the history of the event, these guys are no less consistent than the others from the past 20 years.


How many times are we running the race (as preperation)? Running the 400m multiple times will allow for a quick improvement in the event, while running the 800m (a very tactical race) only once hardly provides that.

Who says you improve in a 400m faster than an 800m? If anything, give the race tactics, I believe it is the other way around. Also, Alan Webb ran more than one 800m last year.


There are 3 times (800m) that can be found and all 3 were impressive with 2 of them being run for the first time that season! The other could have won a few of the biggest meets this year. Let's see what the guys run if they are willing to take the cut from running a secondary event (relays are always done last mind you, so there is little chance of someone not running them given the chance).

Answered this one above.

I never admitted I was wrong with the topic that started this and I am not. I agree with some of your points, but I hardly think that there are not quite a few of intermediate hurdlers who make significant heel contact.

Not enough to need a pad.


a heel bruise is the last thing ANYBODY want.

When's the last time you heard of some elite hurdler getting a heel bruise? Okay, Felicia Perdician, but she got one while crashing to the ground in the 2004 Olympics (a freak accident).


The race distance is the same. I'd say an almost 10% increase for most (5%+ for elites) is pretty significant when you are talking over the same distance.

Well, not really. Like I said earlier, just the stride pattern itself will slow down the atheltes while not necessarily wasting more of their energy. By suggesting that the 400m Hurdles is closer to the 800m than the 400m, you are really stating that the hurdlers are using over 100% more energy. Now that 10% doesn't seem so huge.


I doubt his hip height is significantly different from your's (in proportion) judging by your pr's. While raising your COM, you must come down. He doesn't look like Crawford or Bailey, so I would leave that argument out. I think most athletes have around the same hip height proportions, seeing as I have about the same as Ato's and he is an elite sprinter and I am not (yet ;)).

I have never stood next to Bershawn, but I am guessing our hips are fairly close (even though I have high hips for a 6'1" dude). That would make it much easier than him to clear the hurdles, and negates the point you made earlier about people his size (5'7") having to leap over the hurdles. Of course you must come down when raising your CMO. That's basic Newton.

You need to address the huge conflicting comments you made earlier, because it is impossible for you to believe in both. If athletes are experiencing a lot of eccentric contractions, then they must be raising their center of gravity quite a bit. You also said, and this is a direct quote, I don't think leaning when clearing the hurdle is going to raise your center or gravity, and in fact, keeps it lower than it would be. You also stated, You then have to take into consideration there are elite hurdlers 5 inches shorter than you and they are definitely leaping over the hurdles, not simply running over them. Obviously, it is impossible for both of these statements to be true.


I still do not think so. Given the race, I believe the numbers put up in the 800m would be more impressive, assuming the person is still training for the 400mh (of course if they changed their training it would be a different story).

You have virtually no data to back this up, while I have supplied tons of data (and plenty of common sense) to back up my side.

[Arrow]

Sprinters don't land on their heels but the heels do touch the ground as he takes his feet off the ground. Padded heels are not needed however
Pic(last on the page)http://www.armorytrack.com/NSIC.htm

I don't know the exact technicalities of your argument, but here's just my view on the subject

[Soup Nazi]

I hate to be the jerk who brings up an old thread, but I think davan might be interested in reading this article.

http://espn.go.com/oly/summer00/trackfield/s/2000/0920/761349.html

[CTaylor]

Davan, I've been following your argument and find it hysterical.....look, elite sprinters DO NOT make heel contact during the race. The fact that the foot is dorsiflexed during the single stance phase and that the foot is simultaneously being pulled underneath the body makes it APPEAR that the heel is making contact. The one thing that sets elite sprinters apart from good or poor sprinters is ground contact time. The air time for all sprinters is basically the same. The difference is the time spent on the ground and the amount of force generated over that time. Elite sprinters spend significantly less time on the ground generating the necessary propulsive forces. Ralph Mann, (the biomechanist that does the elite sprint training seminars for USATF elite coaches and athletes every year) has quoted this in his studies, which you should be able to find doing a little research. Obviously if the heel was contacting the ground, the athlete would be spending more time on the ground because they would eventually have to roll to the toes to push off...........secondly, there is minimal if any heel contact with ANY type of hurdling. The heel pad on spikes that are "recommended" for the intermediate hurdlers (which is basically a marketing ploy to sell those spikes to a paranoid or uneducated group that feels like they need them for "safety" and as they are also called middle distance spikes) are more for the heel contact that occurs BEFORE the hurdle when lesser talented /skilled athletes are setting up to go over the hurdle, kind of like a long jump. People don't understand the biomechanics of the events and the reasons why they design the shoes for that particular event. For example, the T.J. shoe has the biggest heel and most people assume that's because there are so much heel injuries in the TJ. The reason that people have heel injuries in the T.J is because they land on their TOES, which causes them the leg/foot to collapse and cause a very violent reactive heel strike. If people are taught to TJ properly, they will land on the heel or flat footed first and roll to the toe. You could do this with a sprint shoe and have minimal risk of injury because there is no reactive heel strike. So the heel in that shoe is to set the athlete up to land properly and be able to roll to the toe and push into the next phase, not so much for protection.

[Brumund-Smith]

The heel argument is easily the least ridiculous of the two. I still absolutely cannot believe that davan seriously believes the 400m Hurdles is closer to the 800m than it is to the 400m. That is completely absurd and he has shown not one speck of evidence to adequately back it up; yet he still refuses to just admit that he was wrong. It's really quite fascinating.

[CTaylor]

And in response to that argument, the research has shown (and view any rudimentary sports physiology text) that basically the energy systems that the body uses are basically based on time....ie the anaerobic system: phosphate system 0-7 sec, extended phosphate 7-15 sec, phosphoglycolytic 15-30 sec, glycolytic (lactate accumulation) 30-45 sec. glycolytic (lactate tolerance) 45 sec - 2 min, then 2min plus takes you into the aerobic system..... obviously the majority of the 400mh races, both male and female are performed completely in the aa system and a minimal percentage of time is spent in the lactate tolerance phase whereas in the 800m (with the wr's being 1:41 and 1:52) at least 50% of the majority of races are spent in lactate tolerance and some even (females) minimally in the aerobic system. Almost all of 400m runs are finished in the glycolytic system and most have a minimal percentage (mostly poor HS males and average females) in lactate tolerance. This being said, physiologically, the 400mh race more closely resembles a 400m race than a 800m race and as the skill level goes down, the 400mh race becomes even less like the 800m race from a physiological standpoint as the worse 800m races go into an aerobic phase (over 2 min)but even the worst 400mh race does not approach 2 min.

[sprintdistance]

I have a pair of the Nike Zoom Shiftfly II's, they have 10 spikes, they've worked wonders .... I personally think a sprinter should wear sprint spikes, depending on what sprint event they do and whats comfortable to them they can vary between different spikes .... I also believe that even a 400 hurdler who lands on his heels should wear spint spikes, so that he either learns not to land on his heels, or he gets injured and therefore learns the hard way....


just my 2 cents...


(10 spikes are fine)


I have these spikes as well and I love them, I have 3 other pairs of spikes and they aren't near as good, I always run slower with them! The 10 spikes best in my opinion.

[tracklover]

10 spikes are not necessarily bad. It all depends on how far you run. The shorter the race, the more spikes.

[Dtown]

The heel argument is easily the least ridiculous of the two. I still absolutely cannot believe that davan seriously believes the 400m Hurdles is closer to the 800m than it is to the 400m. That is completely absurd and he has shown not one speck of evidence to adequately back it up; yet he still refuses to just admit that he was wrong. It's really quite fascinating.
didnt you run the 400 hurdles in college?

[Brumund-Smith]

didnt you run the 400 hurdles in college?

Yes

[Dtown]

i remember someone posting your times... if i remember correctly they were fairly impressive... so im going to side with you well and you just seem to make more sense.... 400h=800 :confused:

[AtownTx-Jurdler]

while i see that both of you guys are trying to prove a point to each other (davan and lebron guy :D )

YOU GUYS HAVE HAD THE VERY SAME ARGUEMENT IN PREVIOUS TOPICS

whats the point

[Brumund-Smith]

while i see that both of you guys are trying to prove a point to each other (davan and lebron guy :D )

YOU GUYS HAVE HAD THE VERY SAME ARGUEMENT IN PREVIOUS TOPICS

whats the point

This argument has been dry for weeks, so I don't really know why you're brining it up again. I'm assuming that davan looked back at some of his posts and asked himself, "Did I really write that?"

[AtownTx-Jurdler]

This argument has been dry for weeks, so I don't really know why you're brining it up again. I'm assuming that davan looked back at some of his posts and asked himself, "Did I really write that?"

today was the first time i looked in this thread lol and the first couple pages was you two going at it .. and so i looked at the second to last page & it's still you two going at it .. never payed attention to dates .. so i assumed it was still going on ..

anywho .. forget it .. last thing i want to do is start it again lol :p

[Dalau]

this has probably been mentioned already, but i'm not sure.

what you want to look for is toe rise and stiffness/non-stiffness (whichever you prefer)
mid-distance spikes are generally stiff compared to sprint spikes, so they might not work as well if you are a powersprinter as opposed to a finesse sprinter.

[Pip]

Brumund Wins!

[OnePoint]

My coach told me that unless I am an elite or college runner I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Maybe I'm just slow .. :rolleyes:

your coach is stupid. i run very average times for a varsity athlete (400m-2mile) and i can notice a MASSIVE difference. they aren't even built the same way. your coach is delusional

[Brumund-Smith]

How did this thread get bumped up? I think it's hilarious that davan deleated all his posts. That saved all of you from having to read a lot of idiotic rambling. He's usually pretty smart...except in this thread.

[dbandre]

Spikes can be both a help and hindrance to sprinting/running. The main purpose of spikes is propulsion (horizontal force production), and in any sprint race that's the first 5-7 seconds. After that maintenance of velocity is important (vertical force production) and the spikes can end up being a braking mechanism. The purpose of the spikes is to allow a more effective horizontal force to be transmitted into ground. Look at the toes of sprint spikes and mid distance spikes and you'll see the difference as the sprint spike is typically more bent in the toe and less compliant, while mid's are flatter and more compliant. Find out the number of spikes in the spike plate that work best for you, don't assume more is better.