Lukas Verzbicas vs. the Rosas

[TrackCoach]

Originally Posted by Heracles

They were as good as Forys?? All they did was better his mark--- on a cross country course. They haven't gone sub 4:05, or sub 8:50 yet. They never beat him. In fact, they set a record on a course where he won by 30+ seconds. At least the twins had each other to run against. Heck, they haven't even raced FLNats and you are practically making it seem like they are gods among all other runners. We should just go ahead and mail them the gold and silver medal right, since they are better than Colby/Forys/Murdock by so much.

And now you're saying they are better at XC than Colby Lowe, who finished 4th in a year with Fout, Fernandez, Derrick, and Puskedra? Colby ran amazing times and dominated every race, until he ran against all timers such as DERRICK/FERNANDEZ/PUSKEDRA/FOUT. I guess his performance at NXN was nothing to impressive, after all, the only person he lost to was Derrick, and then the guy's 40 seconds or such back weren't even 9:10ish runners.

I was wrong about some of those universities I listed, because some of them graduate top runners, but you are just as wrong because you say: "As HS seniors they could or would run in every single schools top 5 let alone 7"

Here is Stanford's top 7:
1 Derrick, Chris
3 Heath, Elliott
6 Riley, Jake SO Stanford
7 Marpole-Bird, Justin
11 Unterreiner, Miles FR Stanford
12 Gregg, Brendan JR Stanford
19 Johnson, Benjamin FR Stanford

Oh wait, they all come back next year. But they don't have a very good chance of improving I'm sure...

I'm sure Oregon's top 5 would disagree as well, seeing as next year 4 out of their TOP 5 runners RETURN.


you seem much more bias than I do, that's pretty bad.

Re: the WorkOut

Perhaps Stanford and Oregon would be a stretch, but anyone else I would say w/o a doubt they are in the top 7. I would probably say that based on their race performances alone, but the ‘WorkOut’ seals the deal for me. That is a gut check workout even for top D1 programs; read Running with the Buffaloes. Except for perhaps Stanford and Oregon, I can’t think of an NCAA program they would be recruited into and not expected to be scorer. - I have been associated with 2 sub-9 2-milers and they absolutely could not have done that workout.

[king99]

"can’t think of an NCAA program they would be recruited into and not expected to be scorer"

This was my point exactly, well said. And my other point was if they were seniors right now NOT juniors, they would still be major DI ready, inarguable!!

[njrunz]

Originally Posted by Heracles

They were as good as Forys?? All they did was better his mark--- on a cross country course. They haven't gone sub 4:05, or sub 8:50 yet. They never beat him. In fact, they set a record on a course where he won by 30+ seconds. At least the twins had each other to run against. Heck, they haven't even raced FLNats and you are practically making it seem like they are gods among all other runners. We should just go ahead and mail them the gold and silver medal right, since they are better than Colby/Forys/Murdock by so much.

No, they're not as good as Forys..they're better than him. Yes, all they did was better his mark on a cross country course. We're talking about cross country here, not track, in case you forgot. And in case you forgot, they murdered his Holmdel record, broke the record at Vanny (a record he had held for a few minutes), and broke records at multiple other time-tested courses. We can't compare track times, because, as you seem to have forgotten, it's November. Why should we compare their times from their sophomore year track season to Forys' senior year, especially because many see them as better xc runners than track runners? You seem to be completely disregarding their incredible xc season so far just because they haven't run nationals. Yes, nationals are important (and FYI, they won't be running FLNats, so that's a moot pt), but look at all the incredible runners who DIDN't win nationals..just the ones you noted from 2 years ago. Nationals aren't the overall determining factor of how great someone is at xc. I think the Rosas' complete destruction of multiple course records at some of the most historic courses in this country are more than enough to show that they would be in almost any college top 7 in the country. As I've said before, their resumes as juniors match up with almost ANY cross country runner ever in the US. If records at Holmdel, Vanny, and Belmont don't show you how incredible these two are, nothing will.

[Scotty]

In XC, the Rosas (especially Joe) are absurdly good.

Forys was a great NJ runner, and he ran 15:33.1 as a Junior at Holmdel.

As a Junior, Joe Rosa ran 29.5 seconds faster going 15:03.6

[maverick]

saw this on the IL board and thought it might be relevant here. Topic is about Lukas and his legacy/all the criticism surrounding him.

Originally Posted by Derrick08

^^^
Lawl

So I saw that DiscoGary made a triumphant return to dyestat illinois and as he is my former nemesis I thought I'd upstage him with a triumphant comeback of my own (plus I was reading about how dominate NV is going to be tomorrow and this was intriguing).

I think that Squiggly is being a touch ridiculous with his accusations as I don't really see people in this thread hating on Lukas so much as saying that they don't like him so much as "other people" (uh... this is awkward ). I think that is pretty much to be expected, for better or worse. To elaborate there has pretty much always been a certain taboo about being too old for your grade in high school athletics (see Solomon Haile, Darien Donald, etc). This probably stems in part from how much the American distance running community loves potential (since up until recently that's pretty much all we had) and in part from some violated sense of "fairness". As concerns the latter: when Lukas is a senior in high school he will be 18 for the XC season and 19 for the track season. Though this is much older than many people (much being a year to a year and a half), it is within the rules of both the IHSA and NHSF, the governing bodies that concern themselves with guarding fairness in sport. I think that simple fact should be enough to eliminate any name calling towards Lukas on this board or anywhere else.

There is another aspect to the, what I think is properly termed, discomfort toward Lukas' assault on the state record books. The fact is this site likes to venerate high school runners to great heights. They become protective of them (see countless Fout vs. German vs. Derrick vs. Puskedra circa 2007). Say what you will, squiggly, about the health or coolness said trend, but it happens. Now certain individuals were venerated as such during 2007 and 2008 and then hot on the heels of there departure came someone who coupled a number factors that made him threatening to the status quo: the aforementioned age debate, the fact that he really wasn't a part of a team in the traditional sense, and, perhaps the most offending of them all, the fact that he just didn't really seem to care all that much about cross country or running in general. I think that the last thing, more than anything is what has brought on a "backlash" (it would surprise me if it were that severe) against Lukas. The fact that running appeared to be a mere side project to him made his destruction of the record book almost an insult to all the people that had previously been venerated as god-like. It turns out they really weren't that god-like, what they did wasn't all that hard because some kid was doing it without really even trying too. And here, I think, is the genesis of all those "asterisks": "he's older than a "real" freshman" (true but he's faster than most real seniors), "he's too old" (simply not true and will never be true), "he's been training sense he was young (true but not particularly relevant, results, not some perceived sense of diminished potential are at stake here), "he was trained by his crazy eastern European parents from a young age in a lab and fed old east German steroids so that he could nefariously destroy Illinois XC records"... you get the idea. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that a lot of the asterisks bandied around on here are a product of a kind of fear that somehow the history of Illinois XC is being de-legitimized by the fact that a triathlete is shredding records without even focusing on running. This is unfortunate on two levels: firstly it prevents us from fully appreciating the awesome talent on display here, and secondly it seems like it is a very visceral reaction and thus hard to get rid of. We should, nonetheless, do our best to do so, because I think the potentially greatest runner in Illinois history is running the state meet tomorrow and we should all be able to fully appreciate it (yeah Craig Virgin, I said it).


On a side note: I wrote this in my room after taking a nap. The shades are down, it is very dark, I may or may not be in my underwear. I also happen to have pimples on my face. All I need to do is gain 50 pounds and transplant this scene into my Mom's basement and I will be the biggest internet loser ever. Dear God.

[DetroiterInIL]

Maverick,

Thanks for sharing.

I'm sure most of you know, but just in case, Derrick08 is Chris Derrick. He set up that Dyestat name while he was a freshman (maybe soph) in H.S.

Having said all that, Chris is a bit too modest. For the IL state meet, when he ran 13:52 at Detweiller (similar course to Virgin's 13:50.6 - and scores of others: Sage, Torres, Spivey - a bit slower) - he wasn't really peaking for it. He knew he had 3 more races (FLMW, FLN, NXN/NTN). Derrick seemed to always put team goals ahead of individual - just as he does today. When people talk about his big improvement from H.S. to College - first off, no question - he improved. Yet... his best race wasn't the IHSA state meet - it was (what is now) NXN.

This doesn't take anything away from Lukas - he can be mentioned in the same breath. Realize that Spivey's best time was 14:00. Sage's: 14:03. Jorge Torres: 14:00 Len Sitko: 14:08. Only 4 guys were faster: Virgin (who is still the only American to win the World XC meet), Derrick, Tom Graves, and Dave Walters.

Lukas' talent will be judged better tomorrow - after the IHSA state meet.

[drewconstantine]

I'm gonna go out on a limb just for fun. I say Lukas runs 13:39 today.

Peace

[drewconstantine]

Originally Posted by LDrunr4L

QFE. only 6 pages on my screen

BTW drewconstantine, I remember you saying how you say peace after every post, but maybe you should go back and check the "find all posts by _____" link, because you didn't start saying peace until 2 threads ago. Not like I've checked.

Hahaha, you actually did that. I'm glad it was you really. The fact that you put that much research into it is amazing. I knew someone would. I do joke from time to time. Don't take anything too seriously. I just want good responses. Although, that one was a joke to see who would look it up. You have a no prize sir, its in the mail. Hope you read comics. Oh, what's up Mr. Newton?

Peace

[barryallen]

Originally Posted by drewconstantine

I'm gonna go out on a limb just for fun. I say Lukas runs 13:39 today.

Peace

You're insane. Thank you. That is all.

[drewconstantine]

Originally Posted by drewconstantine

I'm gonna go out on a limb just for fun. I say Lukas runs 13:39 today.

Peace

I wasn't aware LV had an achilles injury. Predictions are fun but now its iffy; however, it LV comes through I won't be surprised. I didn't know he was injured though.